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Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 11:16:28

Title: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 11:16:28
This shite has been doing the rounds for a number of years now. Indeed, the young twonk that was on tv this morning admitted that resolution foundation has released over 20 reports leading up to this one. I think a better idea would be to take every penny from members of this pointless, useless talking shop and shoot the tw**s. But the BBC loves it and has been all over every one of the previous pieces of crap they've produced:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44029808
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 08 May 2018, 11:21:30
Ive also started a thread which mentions this. You best me to it by three and a half minutes, which is about the length of time I spent typing it.  ::) ;D
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 11:23:07
There you go, Albs:

Well if your over 25 bad luck. If your under 25 though you might be in luck !!
The Resolution foundation (who ?) headed by David Willets, a former Tory MP has recommended that everyone should be given £25k from the Govt. money tree when they reach the age of 25.
What better way to encourage the huge sense of entitlement of the snowflake generation.
You don't need to work and struggle to get what you want in life. The rest of us will give it to you.
The world really has gone fickin mad. This is the kind of thing you would have seen as a sketch in a comedy programme not long ago.
Now its a serious recommendation from a supposedly serious think tank type organisation.
They also recommend that people who carry on working past retirement age should now pay national insurance to fund the NHS.
This will obviously mean that people wont carry on working and will be less self reliant and more likely to be reliant on the state.
Depraved neo Marxism.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 11:24:22
Yours is inaccurate though, it's £10,000 not £25,000  ;D
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: grifter on 08 May 2018, 13:33:00
The vilification of anyone over 30 seems to gathering pace, encouraging a we deserve everything younger generation. There also seems to be a myth going round that old people are causing all the bed blocking and pension problems. Total load of tosh, they paid in so deserve pension and care. A lot of younger people are living high off the hog and it's time they were thrown naked into the real world and see how they get on.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 08 May 2018, 15:13:37
Yours is inaccurate though, it's £10,000 not £25,000  ;D

I'm hot, sweaty and bothered. Leave me alone.  :P...................I think your right though. I got carried away with my 25,s.  ;D
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Viral_Jim on 08 May 2018, 17:36:19
Total load of tosh, they paid in so deserve pension and care.

True enough, but on the flip side I think most would agree things got pretty well out of hand regarding a lot of baby boomers. Take as an example my friend's father, early retired from his police desk job on his 50th birthday, full final salary pension, index linked, all that jazz. Even starting work at 16, he's been educated by the state, at work 34yrs and will probably live another 34yrs at the state's expense.

Hard to swallow when your taxes are paying his £40-50k/yr at the same time you're being told that your pension age is going up, you need to work more hours than your parents' generation, housing to income multiples are higher than they've ever been. Oh and you're lazy and entitled.  ::)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 17:56:31
These 'quick fixes' can never work. Basically, the world is overpopulated and there simply isn't enough to go around. The working class and, to a certain extent, the middle class, were relatively poor for hundreds of years. We pick on one generation, who had it pretty good, and slate them for being so lucky. What's happening is a return to some sort of normality. Everyone cannot have everything, otherwise there would be no point in being human. Striving for our goals is what makes us what we are.
Albs will tell you it's Tony Bliar's fault for raising expectations beyond reasonable bounds....and he may have a point. If you are of moderate intelligence and you work hard, you have a good chance of making a decent life for yourself. If you are thick, too fat or lazy, know your place and be thankful for what you've got  ;D



I'm in line to be Jaime's employment minister, by the way.  ::)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: TheBoy on 08 May 2018, 18:07:46
If you are of moderate intelligence and you work hard, you have a good chance of making a decent life for yourself. If you are thick, too fat or lazy, know your place and be thankful for what you've got  ;D
If the stupid kid from the local comp can work his way to earning enough to buy a house, and enjoy some small luxuries, then anyone can, with a bit of similar hard graft.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 08 May 2018, 18:09:31
Agree with the sentiment, but house price anywhere within 70ish miles of London are out of reach of many first time buyers now, and that needs to be addressed somehow.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: TheBoy on 08 May 2018, 18:11:06
Agree with the sentiment, but house price anywhere within 70ish miles of London are out of reach of many first time buyers now, and that needs to be addressed somehow.
Easy. Move.

Personally, I'm all for bombing the shit out of London, as it will improve the place.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 18:11:14
Agree with the sentiment, but house price anywhere within 70ish miles of London are out of reach of many first time buyers now, and that needs to be addressed somehow.
Rent, stay at home, emigrate, move north........but you're not getting one for free, I can tell you that for nowt.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 18:17:20
My lad is 19 next week and is at Sheffield Uni. When he finishes, he will no doubt get a job of some sort. He will either earn enough for a deposit or he will stay in his room here. That's his choice, and staying here is not a hardship, I can tell you that for nothing.
Fortunately, he is not 'entitled', because I brought him up in the real world.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: TheBoy on 08 May 2018, 18:17:24
Easy. Move.
And I should point out I did not move to Brakkers by choice. Other things forced the move, and Brakkers was chosen because for about 50% more than we sold our tiny 2/3 bed semi for in Aylesbury bought us a comfortably sized 4 bed detached in Brakkers.

It was pure luck its actually a nice place to live, and I reckon I'm on the best street in town.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 18:18:34
Easy. Move.
And I should point out I did not move to Brakkers by choice. Other things forced the move, and Brakkers was chosen because for about 50% more than we sold our tiny 2/3 bed semi for in Aylesbury bought us a comfortably sized 4 bed detached in Brakkers.

It was pure luck its actually a nice place to live, and I reckon I'm on the best street in town.
It might have been before you moved in.   ;D
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Nick W on 08 May 2018, 18:35:15
Easy. Move.
And I should point out I did not move to Brakkers by choice. Other things forced the move, and Brakkers was chosen because for about 50% more than we sold our tiny 2/3 bed semi for in Aylesbury bought us a comfortably sized 4 bed detached in Brakkers.

It was pure luck its actually a nice place to live, and I reckon I'm on the best street in town.
It might have been before you moved in blew it up  ;D


Fixed that for everyone :)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 18:36:22
Easy. Move.
And I should point out I did not move to Brakkers by choice. Other things forced the move, and Brakkers was chosen because for about 50% more than we sold our tiny 2/3 bed semi for in Aylesbury bought us a comfortably sized 4 bed detached in Brakkers.

It was pure luck its actually a nice place to live, and I reckon I'm on the best street in town.
It might have been before you moved in blew it up  ;D


Fixed that for everyone :)
Tee hee   ;D
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Viral_Jim on 08 May 2018, 18:42:52
Easy. Move.

Personally, I'm all for bombing the shit out of London, as it will improve the place.

100% agree. Unless you from a long line of under-rock dwelling people, London has always been expensive, no point whining about it. Personally I’d quite like a 4 bedroom villa overlooking Monaco harbour, but I don’t whine about how I can’t afford to buy one! And actually, it’s cyclical, if all the young talent (and by that I mean people who are actually employable, moved North/West a bit, prices would equalise.

It’s the same when you see local Cornish/Devon folk bitching about second home owners. They’re only second home owners because locals allowed it to happen. I’ve yet to see a house advertised as £500k, or £250k if you’re a local  ;D
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 08 May 2018, 18:54:16
I've had a quick Google.......and it seems that by far the biggest government expenditure is pensions......£113 billion and rising year on year.

How about we implement a "Logan's Run" type policy at 65?. The huge saving can be passed on to the young. NHS costs will fall dramatically because it is the coffin dodgers who are blocking all the beds.

Sounds like a win win situation to me.. If the cull was handled humanely I think it is workable. :)

I'm surprised TB hasn't thought of this idea already. :)   
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 18:58:05
I've had a quick Google.......and it seems that by far the biggest government expenditure is pensions......£113 billion and rising year on year.

How about we implement a "Logan's Run" type policy at 65?. The huge saving can be passed on to the young. NHS costs will fall dramatically because it is the coffin dodgers who are blocking all the beds.

Sounds like a win win situation to me.. If the cull was handled humanely I think it is workable. :)

I'm surprised TB hasn't thought of this idea already. :)   
That idea is as good (and as possible) as the ten grand one.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 08 May 2018, 18:58:28
.......Oh, and there should be a law to stop doddery old women working on the tills at the supermarket. They are so slow I may drop dead of old age in the queue one day.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 18:59:52
.......Oh, and there should be a law to stop doddery old women working on the tills at the supermarket. They are so slow I may drop dead of old age in the queue one day.
Send the wife...or do you like to keep an eye on what she spends?  ::)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 19:01:12
Actually, this £10,000 idea may not be so bad. When they gave it to my lad, I could just punch him in the face and take it off him. Hmmmmmm   :-\
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 19:02:14
Or 'mind' it for him.......
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 08 May 2018, 19:03:27

It’s the same when you see local Cornish/Devon folk bitching about second home owners. They’re only second home owners because locals allowed it to happen. I’ve yet to see a house advertised as £500k, or £250k if you’re a local  ;D

And how were they suppose to stop it happening exactly?  ???

Burn the houses down?  Man the barricades?  ::)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 19:04:43

It’s the same when you see local Cornish/Devon folk bitching about second home owners. They’re only second home owners because locals allowed it to happen. I’ve yet to see a house advertised as £500k, or £250k if you’re a local  ;D

And how were they suppose to stop it happening exactly?  ???

Burn the houses down?  Man the barricades?  ::)
Where are the locals who sold them in the first place? Sunning it somewhere, no doubt.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 08 May 2018, 19:08:16
Many older people are claiming pensions (and a large variety of other benefits) for 20 years or more. In the good old days of scarlet fever, consumption, and cholera  most people would barely make it to a pensionable age, and if they did they would usually drop off the perch soon after.

My point being that most pensioners take far more from the system than they ever paid in. This is not sustainable.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 08 May 2018, 19:09:33

It’s the same when you see local Cornish/Devon folk bitching about second home owners. They’re only second home owners because locals allowed it to happen. I’ve yet to see a house advertised as £500k, or £250k if you’re a local  ;D

And how were they suppose to stop it happening exactly?  ???

Burn the houses down?  Man the barricades?  ::)
Where are the locals who sold them in the first place? Sunning it somewhere, no doubt.

Probably!  :y

Round here people are buying perfectly good £500k houses and knocking them down for a grand design type thing!  :o  ::)

Havn't seen that Kevin McCloud fella yet, but I bet he's lurking around somewhere!  :-\  ;)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 19:09:39
Many older people are claiming pensions (and a large variety of other benefits) for 20 years or more. In the good old days of scarlet fever, consumption, and cholera  most people would barely make it to a pensionable age, and if they did they would usually drop off the perch soon after.

My point being that most pensioners take far more from the system than they ever paid in. This is not sustainable.
Correct. That's why taxes should be raised to fund pensions  :y
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 08 May 2018, 19:11:47
Or 'mind' it for him.......

Good idea.....tell him you'll give it to him when he is 65. :)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 08 May 2018, 19:12:18
When was the last time the two main political parties agreed on anything? And, as the grey vote gets them elected, I think you'll find that's game, set and match for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 08 May 2018, 19:13:14
Many older people are claiming pensions (and a large variety of other benefits) for 20 years or more. In the good old days of scarlet fever, consumption, and cholera  most people would barely make it to a pensionable age, and if they did they would usually drop off the perch soon after.

My point being that most pensioners take far more from the system than they ever paid in. This is not sustainable.
Correct. That's why taxes should be raised to fund pensions  :y

The cull is more cost effective. :)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: aaronjb on 08 May 2018, 20:51:46
I'll vote for a Logan's Run system as long as I get that giant TV set on which I can dial up a real-life young, scantily clad Jenny Agutter..

Although that was at age 30 IIRC, so that's the lot of us screwed. Worse if we chose the book version where they all offed themselves at 21..
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Viral_Jim on 08 May 2018, 21:05:16

It’s the same when you see local Cornish/Devon folk bitching about second home owners. They’re only second home owners because locals allowed it to happen. I’ve yet to see a house advertised as £500k, or £250k if you’re a local  ;D

And how were they suppose to stop it happening exactly?  ???

Burn the houses down?  Man the barricades?  ::)

My point is in my post. It was the locals who coined in the extra selling houses to incommers in the first place if they cared that much about keeping the villages local, they’d put their money where their mouth was and sell houses at affordable prices to locals.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Rods2 on 09 May 2018, 00:56:47
There are some stupid things in the report, like if you work passed retirement age we will charge you extra NI, which encourages people to retire adding an extra burden to the cost of retirement compared to carrying on working, maybe deferring your pension and paying income tax and keeping more active and fitter as working people generally have fewer health problems and live longer. :y :y :y

Young entitlement is all wrong as apart from getting a useless degree, useful ones will lead to much higher lifelong earnings and relatively more expensive housing have been caused by government Stalinist planning policies, everything else in much, much cheaper from cars, to clothes, to energy, to consumer electronics, travel, holidays, food etc due to much more efficient production and distribution systems from globalization. Hiring Mk I arms for unskilled labouring to burger flipping has always been badly paid and if you want to get ahead, work hard, learn new skills and create a business where capitalism is open to everybody. In the first year of my first business I worked long 80+ hours a week with a full time job as well as running the business and the same long hours in the first full time year in business but the end of year dividend I used to move from living at home to putting 30% deposit on a big detached house, my highest income tax band was 55% and my mortgage rate 15% not the 2% that it is now. The 1980s under Thatcher were get on your bike and start a business decade and many did exactly that. There are youngsters starting very successful businesses now but they seem to be a much small percentage than in the 1980s. It is much easier to rely on the bank of mum & dad. :( :( :(

The big problem going from small government where the percentage of GDP collected in tax was 33% and it has risen every year since the useless failed bank manager became PM in 1991 and started the splurge and the path to big government that has gone on ever increasingly every year and is now 43% including borrowing. Safe job for life Public service pay has gone from being about 20% less than industry with a good final earnings pension to being about 20% more with a poorer final pension, but now relatively better that you can expect to get in the private sector. The reason these new taxes have been suggested is that everything else has been taxed to death and is now the wrong side of the Laffer curve, so tax take is going down with each rise and it is reducing economic activity with VED rises, BTL taxes and stamp duty being the latest example, so car sales are down by about 20%, especially for luxury cars and about 30% for BTL properties and IMO is the start of the next crash, along with shares and bond prices. :( :( :( The reason the 1980s was a decade of massively rising wealth, especially compared to the 1970's IMF bailout, socialist disaster was the modernization of the state and ruthlessly cutting taxes, so it made it worthwhile to get on your bike, start a business, create wealth and export all over the world to help this country earn its keep. :y :y :y
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 09 May 2018, 11:34:04

It’s the same when you see local Cornish/Devon folk bitching about second home owners. They’re only second home owners because locals allowed it to happen. I’ve yet to see a house advertised as £500k, or £250k if you’re a local  ;D

And how were they suppose to stop it happening exactly?  ???

Burn the houses down?  Man the barricades?  ::)

My point is in my post. It was the locals who coined in the extra selling houses to incommers in the first place if they cared that much about keeping the villages local, they’d put their money where their mouth was and sell houses at affordable prices to locals.

I'm impressed that the Millennial generation would be more principled than their forebears!  :)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Shackeng on 09 May 2018, 16:51:18
David Willetts' bro lives next door to me. I am going to have a word... >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: TheBoy on 09 May 2018, 18:03:52
a real-life young, scantily clad Jenny Agutter..
I saw Railway Children for the first time ever at the weekend.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: BazaJT on 09 May 2018, 22:01:49
Bet you're sorry now that you haven't watched it more often :D ;D
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 10 May 2018, 05:47:53
Heard about this a few months back, don't really know what to think about it we started with nothing but consider ourselves comfortably off, worked hard for what we have now and never expected handouts ,£25,000 a considerable sum but would it be used wisely ? In this day & age I don't think so ,really think this country is going down the pan so if I were under 25 and had skills that were wanted I would use the money to emigrate to a less "snowflake" country.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: aaronjb on 10 May 2018, 08:54:30
a real-life young, scantily clad Jenny Agutter..
I saw Railway Children for the first time ever at the weekend.

Which one.. the 1968 TV version when she was 15 or 16 (just), or the 1970 film version when she was definitely legal?  :P ;D
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 10 May 2018, 09:03:29

........ really think this country is going down the pan so if I were under 25 and had skills that were wanted I would use the money to emigrate to a less "snowflake" country.

Where would you go then?  ???

I think you'll find much of the 'developed' world is much the same these days ie one big snowflake, so the alternative is the third world (or developing world  as we now call it.)  with it's crumbling infrastructure, corruption and extreme levels of violent crime.  ;)

I suppose a sunny snowflake country would be an improvement?  ::)  Australia perhaps?  :y
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 10 May 2018, 09:17:47
Would the south eastern US count?  :-\
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 10 May 2018, 10:17:47
Would the south eastern US count?  :-\

Florida? Count as what? Snowflake or non snowflake?  ???

I think the term snowflake was invented in the US, no?  :-\
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 10 May 2018, 10:31:41
a real-life young, scantily clad Jenny Agutter..
I saw Railway Children for the first time ever at the weekend.

Which one.. the 1968 TV version when she was 15 or 16 (just), or the 1970 film version when she was definitely legal?  :P ;D

Maybe I'm odd but I always fancied Dinah Sheridan more than Jenny Agutter in 1970. :)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: aaronjb on 10 May 2018, 10:34:06
Maybe I'm odd

Yes :P
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 10 May 2018, 13:54:19
In reply to where would I go probably Australia got several relatives over there who went in the seventies all done very well & enjoy a great lifestyle, once again that is just my opinion not something I wish to argue over.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Rods2 on 10 May 2018, 16:57:44
a real-life young, scantily clad Jenny Agutter..
I saw Railway Children for the first time ever at the weekend.

Which one.. the 1968 TV version when she was 15 or 16 (just), or the 1970 film version when she was definitely legal?  :P ;D

Maybe I'm odd but I always fancied Dinah Sheridan more than Jenny Agutter in 1970. :)

I preferred her daughter Jenny Hanley. :-*
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: TheBoy on 10 May 2018, 18:51:09
a real-life young, scantily clad Jenny Agutter..
I saw Railway Children for the first time ever at the weekend.

Which one.. the 1968 TV version when she was 15 or 16 (just), or the 1970 film version when she was definitely legal?  :P ;D
The legal one ;D.

The film was shit though.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: BazaJT on 10 May 2018, 20:23:17
I'd vote Dinah Sheridan too.I thought when I saw Genevieve that she was beautiful and last time I saw her on TV although a deal older she still is :y
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Rods2 on 11 May 2018, 00:28:23
I'd vote Dinah Sheridan too.I thought when I saw Genevieve that she was beautiful and last time I saw her on TV although a deal older she still is :y

Was as she died in 2012 aged 92 (b: 1920). :'(
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: grifter on 11 May 2018, 06:44:33
Total load of tosh, they paid in so deserve pension and care.

True enough, but on the flip side I think most would agree things got pretty well out of hand regarding a lot of baby boomers. Take as an example my friend's father, early retired from his police desk job on his 50th birthday, full final salary pension, index linked, all that jazz. Even starting work at 16, he's been educated by the state, at work 34yrs and will probably live another 34yrs at the state's expense.

Hard to swallow when your taxes are paying his £40-50k/yr at the same time you're being told that your pension age is going up, you need to work more hours than your parents' generation, housing to income multiples are higher than they've ever been. Oh and you're lazy and entitled.  ::)

So It's more about they got a good deal and we didn't so I'm pissed off and now we should take it all away from them. If he'd paid in for 34 years does he not deserve it? I mean if that is the system you are presented with you can't then turn round and say oh you're living too long we need the money back, the government and the corporations knew what the system was they can't oversee it, then penalise people for simply using it; it's like the diesel scandal, penalise people for what at the time they were told by the government, or more like, encourage, to do. Here's the reason our pensions are disappearing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALlzClE67os
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: LC0112G on 11 May 2018, 09:34:45
Total load of tosh, they paid in so deserve pension and care.

True enough, but on the flip side I think most would agree things got pretty well out of hand regarding a lot of baby boomers. Take as an example my friend's father, early retired from his police desk job on his 50th birthday, full final salary pension, index linked, all that jazz. Even starting work at 16, he's been educated by the state, at work 34yrs and will probably live another 34yrs at the state's expense.

Hard to swallow when your taxes are paying his £40-50k/yr at the same time you're being told that your pension age is going up, you need to work more hours than your parents' generation, housing to income multiples are higher than they've ever been. Oh and you're lazy and entitled.  ::)

So It's more about they got a good deal and we didn't so I'm pissed off and now we should take it all away from them. If he'd paid in for 34 years does he not deserve it? I mean if that is the system you are presented with you can't then turn round and say oh you're living too long we need the money back, the government and the corporations knew what the system was they can't oversee it, then penalise people for simply using it; it's like the diesel scandal, penalise people for what at the time they were told by the government, or more like, encourage, to do. Here's the reason our pensions are disappearing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALlzClE67os

The problem with that argument is that it's the people who are now benefiting who voted in the governments which passed the laws that say future generations must pay for the current generations wishes. Those future generations are now realising they won't/can't get the same - free university education, generous FS pensions, retiring at 50 etc - and are beginning to resent the previous generations who voted in things for themselves that are (and always were) un-affordable.

Blaming it on the government is disingenuous - blame it on the people who elected those governments and their crack pot ideas who not unsurprisingly turn out to be the people who are benefiting the most. Quelle surprise.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Kevin Wood on 11 May 2018, 09:51:43
Yep, any notion of a "pot" that people have "paid in" to has long since been sold off, privatised or spent on propping up ridiculous public sector pension schemes.

Benefits now and in the future are going to be limited to what current taxation can support. We might end up with a fairer system once all of the defined benefit schemes promised based on the assumption that the 80's will continue forever have paid out. Until then, it'll be unfair on current tax payers.

It will be a system whereby you take responsibility for yourself, however. Not sure how that's going to pan out for the millennials... ::)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Viral_Jim on 11 May 2018, 10:07:22

So It's more about they got a good deal and we didn't so I'm pissed off and now we should take it all away from them. If he'd paid in for 34 years does he not deserve it? I mean if that is the system you are presented with you can't then turn round and say oh you're living too long we need the money back, the government and the corporations knew what the system was they can't oversee it, then penalise people for simply using it; it's like the diesel scandal, penalise people for what at the time they were told by the government, or more like, encourage, to do. Here's the reason our pensions are disappearing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALlzClE67os

No, its more that, they got a good deal (fair enough, as you say its the deal they are presented with), but in the current climate where savings have to be made, those savings are being predominantly made at one end of the spectrum. For example handing out state benefits to millionaires (buss pas, winter fuel allowance, state pension etc etc). If I proposed we hand out state benefits to working age millionaires, people would think I was bonkers, but because they're retired...

And as for being the whiny generation, look at the stink and fuss that the WASPY women created when someone actioned an aspect of equality that they didn't want.  ::)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: LC0112G on 11 May 2018, 10:16:12
For example handing out state benefits to millionaires (buss pas, winter fuel allowance, state pension etc etc).

On that narrow point which few disagree with, the issue is coming up with a system that doesn't cost more to implement than it would save.

And as for being the whiny generation, look at the stink and fuss that the WASPY women created when someone actioned an aspect of equality that they didn't want.  ::)

They didn't create a stink. Anyone that had half a brain cell realised that what they were demanding was barking mad and ignored them. A few MP's desparate for votes gave half hearted support and then crawled back under their rocks after the faux outrage dissipated.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 11 May 2018, 11:38:09
Would the south eastern US count?  :-\

Florida? Count as what? Snowflake or non snowflake?  ???

I think the term snowflake was invented in the US, no?  :-\
I was thinking Kentucky/Tennessee/Arkansas/Georgia would be less Snowflakey than, say, the entire West Coast...
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: aaronjb on 11 May 2018, 11:55:09
Would the south eastern US count?  :-\

Florida? Count as what? Snowflake or non snowflake?  ???

I think the term snowflake was invented in the US, no?  :-\
I was thinking Kentucky/Tennessee/Arkansas/Georgia would be less Snowflakey than, say, the entire West Coast...

If you can hear banjos, you're safe from the snowflakes*

*Other risks may be involved.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 11 May 2018, 11:55:46
Would the south eastern US count?  :-\

Florida? Count as what? Snowflake or non snowflake?  ???

I think the term snowflake was invented in the US, no?  :-\
I was thinking Kentucky/Tennessee/Arkansas/Georgia would be less Snowflakey than, say, the entire West Coast...

Texas probably doesn't even register on the Snowflakey Scale.  ;D

As Tibo pointed out, you can have a good life in Australia.  I lived there for a bit in the 1990's and often wonder why I didn't stay. However, it was a nanny state even 20 years ago, much more so than here.  So I think the land of Oz will be high up on the Snowflakey Scale!  ;)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 11 May 2018, 13:03:56
Back on topic - I have always ben a firm believer that all state benefits should be means tested.
Its supposed to be a welfare state to help those who cannot help themselves, once we had universal; benefits then it became a way of buying votes with other peoples money.
The only excuse that could be found for this, at the time, was that it would punish poor people because of the stigma around claiming benefits, so they could end up freezing or starving because they were too proud to claim.
Imo, there is no stigma whatsoever around claiming benefits these days, in fact its a badge of honour for quite a few, so that excuse is gone.
The political problem with doing the right thing is huge though.  This was demonstrated when the coalition introduced a cap on benefits per household, which equated to approx. 1.5 times the average wage, the noise was deafening. Which is more than Ive ever earned in my life.
Cries of "taking food out of childrens mouths", "driving the poor deeper into poverty" etc. etc.  ::)
It takes a politician with big balls to do the right thing these days, and they are as common as a sack full of hens teeth, buried in a mound of rocking horse sh1t.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 11 May 2018, 13:40:37
Back on topic - I have always ben a firm believer that all state benefits should be means tested.
Its supposed to be a welfare state to help those who cannot help themselves, once we had universal; benefits then it became a way of buying votes with other peoples money.
The only excuse that could be found for this, at the time, was that it would punish poor people because of the stigma around claiming benefits, so they could end up freezing or starving because they were too proud to claim.
Imo, there is no stigma whatsoever around claiming benefits these days, in fact its a badge of honour for quite a few, so that excuse is gone.
The political problem with doing the right thing is huge though.  This was demonstrated when the coalition introduced a cap on benefits per household, which equated to approx. 1.5 times the average wage, the noise was deafening. Which is more than Ive ever earned in my life.
Cries of "taking food out of childrens mouths", "driving the poor deeper into poverty" etc. etc.  ::)
It takes a politician with big balls to do the right thing these days, and they are as common as a sack full of hens teeth, buried in a mound of rocking horse sh1t.
Have you quite finished?  ;D You're only talking like this cause you know you'll fall of your perch before you reach pensionable age.  :P
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 11 May 2018, 13:41:09
Back on topic - I have always ben a firm believer that all state benefits should be means tested.
Its supposed to be a welfare state to help those who cannot help themselves, once we had universal; benefits then it became a way of buying votes with other peoples money.
The only excuse that could be found for this, at the time, was that it would punish poor people because of the stigma around claiming benefits, so they could end up freezing or starving because they were too proud to claim.
Imo, there is no stigma whatsoever around claiming benefits these days, in fact its a badge of honour for quite a few, so that excuse is gone.
The political problem with doing the right thing is huge though.  This was demonstrated when the coalition introduced a cap on benefits per household, which equated to approx. 1.5 times the average wage, the noise was deafening. Which is more than Ive ever earned in my life.
Cries of "taking food out of childrens mouths", "driving the poor deeper into poverty" etc. etc.  ::)
It takes a politician with big balls to do the right thing these days, and they are as common as a sack full of hens teeth, buried in a mound of rocking horse sh1t.

I broadly agree with this. The Liberals (not Lib Dems) introduced the first state pension in 1909. This amounted to five bob a week which is equal to £15 today.

To get this you needed  to be over seventy. In 1909 the average life expectancy of the working man was 47. Pensions were not much of a burden on the taxpayer way back then......unlike today.

Why wealthy pensioners (and there are plenty of them) are given free prescriptions, free TV licence, free eye tests, free travel pass, and £300 winter fuel allowance is beyond me.

We are close to tipping point where there is not enough people working to pay for the ever increasing number of pensioners.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 11 May 2018, 13:42:12
......so STMO should do 'the right thing' and give his pension to the poor and needy. ::)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 11 May 2018, 13:43:27
I am the very personification of poor and needy. I haven't got a pot to piss in  :'(
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 11 May 2018, 13:47:25
I am the very personification of poor and needy. I haven't got a pot to piss in  :'(

You can't live in  Barnsley or Chelsea and be considered poor. :)

You are part of a wealthy elite. :)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: LC0112G on 11 May 2018, 14:33:52
Why wealthy pensioners (and there are plenty of them) are given free prescriptions, free TV licence, free eye tests, free travel pass, and £300 winter fuel allowance is beyond me.

Because, as I intimated earlier, the cost of employing civil servants (with their expensive gold plated pensions) to decide who does and who does not get these benefits far exceeds any possible cost saving. And then there are the lawyers and barristers required to defend the boarder-line cases which get taken to court. A single case could end up costing millions.

In the overall scheme of things, these benefits cost peanuts. Fractions of a fraction of a percent of govt spending. There are much bigger fish to fry when trying to save money.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: LC0112G on 11 May 2018, 14:43:21
Back on topic - I have always ben a firm believer that all state benefits should be means tested.

Define state benefit though. Is the State Pension a benefit? Or access to the NHS? Or free schooling for your children? They're definitely benefits of living in this state/country, but you ain't gonna get much support from middle England if you attempt to restrict free access to these to those that fail some arbitrary means test.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 11 May 2018, 14:54:54
As you've explained before, Malcolm, no one has 'paid in' to the state pension, the people who are contributing now are paying for the current pensioners. I get a warm feeling inside knowing that Albs is paying to keep me warm in my dotage. Thanks, Albs  :-*   ;D ;D
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Rods2 on 11 May 2018, 15:47:04
The rich elites don't drive GM tractors, but cars with a bit of prestige like Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaags. There ought to be a £50k a day tax on all Jaaag owners applied retrospectively to fund a £10k one off mobility allowance at 70 to all non Jaaag owners. :P :P :P
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 11 May 2018, 17:04:46
As you've explained before, Malcolm, no one has 'paid in' to the state pension, the people who are contributing now are paying for the current pensioners. I get a warm feeling inside knowing that Albs is paying to keep me warm in my dotage. Thanks, Albs :-*   ;D ;D

This information alone could mean he may consider hanging himself. :)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Viral_Jim on 11 May 2018, 17:06:30
Why wealthy pensioners (and there are plenty of them) are given free prescriptions, free TV licence, free eye tests, free travel pass, and £300 winter fuel allowance is beyond me.

Because, as I intimated earlier, the cost of employing civil servants (with their expensive gold plated pensions) to decide who does and who does not get these benefits far exceeds any possible cost saving. And then there are the lawyers and barristers required to defend the boarder-line cases which get taken to court. A single case could end up costing millions.

In the overall scheme of things, these benefits cost peanuts. Fractions of a fraction of a percent of govt spending. There are much bigger fish to fry when trying to save money.

Is it really that hard though? surely the very people you're targeting are those that already complete a self assessment (I don't think pensions get paid net of PAYE do they?), so for those pensioners who a re higher rate tax payers, you just levy a 100% tax on their benefits payments.

I acknowledge this doesn't cover all bases, but it would hit a rump of people. And it was a good enough mechanism to take away working age benefits (child support).  :y
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: LC0112G on 11 May 2018, 17:20:53
Is it really that hard though? surely the very people you're targeting are those that already complete a self assessment (I don't think pensions get paid net of PAYE do they?), so for those pensioners who a re higher rate tax payers, you just levy a 100% tax on their benefits payments.

State pensions are paid gross with no tax deducted, so yes SP is paid outside of PAYE. The govt then reduce your tax code by the amount paid as SP, and that code is then used for any/all other sources of income (private pensions, job income, etc).

You may be targeting higher paid pensioners, but you can't just dream up a tax for them. You would have to find a way of reducing their personal allowances. However reducing or otherwise fiddling with personal allowances to compensate for benefits will drag a lot of low/middle income pensoners into the Self Assessment regieme, and that is a recipe for disaster. It also has the potential to create lots of traps where earning £1 extra results in a £2 drop in income.

Your other issue is that many millionare pensioners are sensible enough to have their money in tax free shelters like ISA's or their houses. Almighty fuss if you attempt to raise tax from them.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 11 May 2018, 17:25:00
As you've explained before, Malcolm, no one has 'paid in' to the state pension, the people who are contributing now are paying for the current pensioners. I get a warm feeling inside knowing that Albs is paying to keep me warm in my dotage. Thanks, Albs :-*   ;D ;D

This information alone could mean he may consider hanging himself. :)
Hope not, we need his contributions.  ;D
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: LC0112G on 11 May 2018, 17:29:52
As you've explained before, Malcolm, no one has 'paid in' to the state pension, the people who are contributing now are paying for the current pensioners. I get a warm feeling inside knowing that Albs is paying to keep me warm in my dotage. Thanks, Albs  :-*   ;D ;D

Yes, but I would further argue that virtually no-one, and probably on-one on this list, ever pays anything in nett. We're all takers of govt benefits one way or another. Govt spending in 2017 was £1726 Bn. So for a population of 65 Million, that represents about £26.5K in per man woman and child. Personal taxation (Income tax, NI,  VAT and a few others) make up about  70% of govt income, so accounting for that I suppose you could argue that it's about £18.5K per man, woman and child.

So unless you pay £18.5K in taxes per year for every person in your household, you're a benefit scrounger living off the taxes paid by others.  ::)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 11 May 2018, 18:49:49
I like my analogy best. Keep working, Albs.  :y
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 11 May 2018, 19:02:59
I like my analogy best. Keep working, Albs.  :y

Yep....till he drops. :)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Rods2 on 11 May 2018, 21:27:45
As you've explained before, Malcolm, no one has 'paid in' to the state pension, the people who are contributing now are paying for the current pensioners. I get a warm feeling inside knowing that Albs is paying to keep me warm in my dotage. Thanks, Albs  :-*   ;D ;D

Yes, but I would further argue that virtually no-one, and probably on-one on this list, ever pays anything in nett. We're all takers of govt benefits one way or another. Govt spending in 2017 was £1726 Bn. So for a population of 65 Million, that represents about £26.5K in per man woman and child. Personal taxation (Income tax, NI,  VAT and a few others) make up about  70% of govt income, so accounting for that I suppose you could argue that it's about £18.5K per man, woman and child.

So unless you pay £18.5K in taxes per year for every person in your household, you're a benefit scrounger living off the taxes paid by others.  ::)

Most recent figures I've got for UK total tax is for 2015:  £609.2bn. GDP: ~£1800bn. You have also got government net borrowing on top of this which in 2015 was: £86.5bn. So total government spending was: £696bn. This works out at about £10,700 per person or with ~30m working £23,200 per employed person.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: LC0112G on 11 May 2018, 23:18:06
As you've explained before, Malcolm, no one has 'paid in' to the state pension, the people who are contributing now are paying for the current pensioners. I get a warm feeling inside knowing that Albs is paying to keep me warm in my dotage. Thanks, Albs  :-*   ;D ;D

Yes, but I would further argue that virtually no-one, and probably on-one on this list, ever pays anything in nett. We're all takers of govt benefits one way or another. Govt spending in 2017 was £1726 Bn. So for a population of 65 Million, that represents about £26.5K in per man woman and child. Personal taxation (Income tax, NI,  VAT and a few others) make up about  70% of govt income, so accounting for that I suppose you could argue that it's about £18.5K per man, woman and child.

So unless you pay £18.5K in taxes per year for every person in your household, you're a benefit scrounger living off the taxes paid by others.  ::)

Most recent figures I've got for UK total tax is for 2015:  £609.2bn. GDP: ~£1800bn. You have also got government net borrowing on top of this which in 2015 was: £86.5bn. So total government spending was: £696bn. This works out at about £10,700 per person or with ~30m working £23,200 per employed person.

Oops  - yes I misread the chart. https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/numbers?units=d suggests the 2019 Govt spending target is £12.5bn. Still, the point holds - only those households earning £100K+ likely to be net contributors. Anyone paying 'only' basic rate tax is a benefit scrounger.  ::)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 12 May 2018, 09:57:47
Of course businesses pay zero tax too ::)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: TheBoy on 12 May 2018, 10:03:21
Reduce the population, shoot any child who has 2 older siblings (that means shooting myself). Shoot anyone who is a financial drain on society, pensioners excluded.

The country needs to be cheaper to run, as we've run out of rich people to pay for it all.

Once again we are in a recession since the referendum (though figures are only just starting to catch up), and many small businesses just throwing in the towel as greedy landlords and greedy authorities keep bumping up rents and business rates, and nobody is spending.

Toys R us, Maplin and House of Fraser (now saved, temporarily) are just the start of this one, and there a few big names according to the retailer rags that are lined up to follow.

The millennials think online retailing is the answer, but that will only push prices up, and you can bet free postage/free return will soon become a thing of the past, and remember its horrifically expensive for a mail order company to process returns.


Obviously all this will reduce money raised by taxation, so time to vote me in as President ;)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 12 May 2018, 10:37:02
Reduce the population, shoot any child who has 2 older siblings (that means shooting myself). Shoot anyone who is a financial drain on society, pensioners excluded.

The country needs to be cheaper to run, as we've run out of rich people to pay for it all.

Once again we are in a recession since the referendum (though figures are only just starting to catch up), and many small businesses just throwing in the towel as greedy landlords and greedy authorities keep bumping up rents and business rates, and nobody is spending.

Toys R us, Maplin and House of Fraser (now saved, temporarily) are just the start of this one, and there a few big names according to the retailer rags that are lined up to follow.

The millennials think online retailing is the answer, but that will only push prices up, and you can bet free postage/free return will soon become a thing of the past, and remember its horrifically expensive for a mail order company to process returns.


Obviously all this will reduce money raised by taxation, so time to vote me in as President ;)

Why be such a wishy washy liberal? ::)

It the old people who are the problem. A machine gun and a large pit could prove a cost effective way of reducing government spending.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: TD on 12 May 2018, 13:25:16
Reduce the population, shoot any child who has 2 older siblings (that means shooting myself). Shoot anyone who is a financial drain on society, pensioners excluded.

The country needs to be cheaper to run, as we've run out of rich people to pay for it all.

Once again we are in a recession since the referendum (though figures are only just starting to catch up), and many small businesses just throwing in the towel as greedy landlords and greedy authorities keep bumping up rents and business rates, and nobody is spending.

Toys R us, Maplin and House of Fraser (now saved, temporarily) are just the start of this one, and there a few big names according to the retailer rags that are lined up to follow.

The millennials think online retailing is the answer, but that will only push prices up, and you can bet free postage/free return will soon become a thing of the past, and remember its horrifically expensive for a mail order company to process returns.


Obviously all this will reduce money raised by taxation, so time to vote me in as President ;)

No point if you are going to shoot yourself  ::)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 12 May 2018, 16:18:15
As retailers go, those mentioned are small fry compared to what's coming...
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 12 May 2018, 16:42:09
I was watching a programme on policing and the attempted control of drugs which ain't working.

It was stated, and I have no way of proving or dis-proving this, that if they legalized cannabis and apply standard rates of sales tax with VAT, no less than £6 billion could be raised.

Just imagine the saving of police time as well!

Just thought this was, if true, a great way of finding more money for the NHS that often has to treat the idiots who smoke the stuff, whilst (perhaps) controlling it's use! 8) :y
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Viral_Jim on 12 May 2018, 16:46:15
Not to mention that it does have some wholly legitimate medical uses, and is far less dangerous than alcohol or tobacco....

Overall I’m really not certain what the rational justification is for keeping it illegal.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 12 May 2018, 17:12:05
Go and visit your local mental health hospital and take a bit of time to study the people who have had their brains fried by smoking the shit, then you might see the justification for keeping it illegal.
Many of them will be well below the age of 18 by the way.
This is a subject very close to my heart, and I find it frustrating when people are glib about it.  :-X
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 12 May 2018, 19:15:44
Go and visit your local mental health hospital and take a bit of time to study the people who have had their brains fried by smoking the shit, then you might see the justification for keeping it illegal.
Many of them will be well below the age of 18 by the way.
This is a subject very close to my heart, and I find it frustrating when people are glib about it.  :-X

It is not a case of being glib about this subject but the fact is the war against the use of cannibis, with cannibis farms apparently in every street, is being lost at great cost.  Why not legalise it and control it's supply, whilst raising £6 billion of revenue to help improve both the NHS and Mental  Heath services. This could reduce the cost of the stuff, making it unviable for criminals to produce and distribute it, let alone controlling the quality of cannibis which is now being produced at far higher strengths than it was. It would also help those that need it for medical reasons.

The truth is that police resources are being wasted by chasing what is a never ending problem, that cannot be overcome without a new approach. Legalisation would also take away any perceived "glamour" and attractiveness of a presently criminal, against the authorities, act that many seem to have (I have myself dealt with many cannibis users and know what goes on in the heads of the young especially). It is a habit which many of the older cannibis users, like acoholics and smokers, would love to lose, so extra funds to the NHS could help their aims without the costs of police time, court services, and prisons. Currently many cannibis users are on on a merry go round of smoking the stuff, being warned / arrested by the police, fined, then back home to smoke it again, with further police action, etc, etc.  The police see this constantly so this cycle must be broken by a new approach to help all. ;)

Let's also recognise that the use of tobacco has fallen dramatically by using a controlled, governmental process since the 1960's, so why not try the same with cannibis.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: pscocoa on 12 May 2018, 19:28:44
Can you claim tax relief on care home fees??
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: TheBoy on 12 May 2018, 19:38:30
Not to mention that it does have some wholly legitimate medical uses, and is far less dangerous than alcohol or tobacco....

Overall I’m really not certain what the rational justification is for keeping it illegal.
Depends on the person.

We all know alcohol impacts people differently, and all know chain smokers, 20 a day, all their life, living into their 90s.

As there are people who are mentally oppsed up through smoking a bit too much weed.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Viral_Jim on 12 May 2018, 21:33:35
Go and visit your local mental health hospital and take a bit of time to study the people who have had their brains fried by smoking the shit, then you might see the justification for keeping it illegal.
Many of them will be well below the age of 18 by the way.
This is a subject very close to my heart, and I find it frustrating when people are glib about it.  :-X

Not glib, objective.

An estimated 90,000 people died in the US last year from alcohol and alcohol related violence. Deaths attributable to cannabis. Zero.   ::)

Yes, people suffer mental issues from a result of cannabis. Possibly. Or maybe it’s the thousands of other things that an unregulated product is cut with to “give you a better high”. Similarly,if you drank bathtub hooch regularly I’m confident that you’d end up with a host of ancillary medical issues that you don’t get drinking Bombay Saphire with some Schweppes.

I’m reasonably sure if you drink heavily before the age of 18 you aren’t going to make old bones either. But if you legalise it, regulate it and regulate its contents and use you can focus your efforts on things that do more serious harm.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 12 May 2018, 22:02:53
Not to mention that it does have some wholly legitimate medical uses, and is far less dangerous than alcohol or tobacco....

Overall I’m really not certain what the rational justification is for keeping it illegal.
Depends on the person.

We all know alcohol impacts people differently, and all know chain smokers, 20 a day, all their life, living into their 90s.

As there are people who are mentally oppsed up through smoking a bit too much weed.

That is not chain smoking TB.  60-80 per day is the measure of true chain smoking.  One of our past company directors smoked at least 60 Capstan Full Strength per day; he was already down to one lung in his 50's, and breathless most of the time retiring early.

One of my uncles, along with my auntie chain smoked to the tune of 80 each per day, being used to duty free cigs when in the Royal Navy.  He lost both legs, and like her died in their late 50's.

I could go on with other family examples with those who smoked constantly when it was once socially acceptable, and "so good for your health" (!!!) to do so, and although I worked in a retail company selling the bloody stuff, but never smoking it myself, I have always wanted to ban tobacco products.

 But that would do no good, no more than the current criminalisation of smoking cannibis. Cannibis (directly or indirectly) tobacco and alcohol all kills or shortens life in the long run, so let the government control cannibis use as it does the rest, produce revenue, and gradually reduce consumption as it has with tobacco and alcohol (yes figures are showing that there has been a drop in youngsters consumption) ,along with an overall decline in public houses. Then the police can target other criminal activity, which often is funded by cannibis production and supply, including the supply and use of class 'A' drugs.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Rods2 on 13 May 2018, 01:51:00
Reduce the population, shoot any child who has 2 older siblings (that means shooting myself). Shoot anyone who is a financial drain on society, pensioners excluded.

The country needs to be cheaper to run, as we've run out of rich people to pay for it all.

Once again we are in a recession since the referendum (though figures are only just starting to catch up), and many small businesses just throwing in the towel as greedy landlords and greedy authorities keep bumping up rents and business rates, and nobody is spending.

Toys R us, Maplin and House of Fraser (now saved, temporarily) are just the start of this one, and there a few big names according to the retailer rags that are lined up to follow.

The millennials think online retailing is the answer, but that will only push prices up, and you can bet free postage/free return will soon become a thing of the past, and remember its horrifically expensive for a mail order company to process returns.


Obviously all this will reduce money raised by taxation, so time to vote me in as President ;)

Stalin & Hitler tried that; one suffered a 'stroke' and the other an 'accidental negligent discharge' in a Berlin Buker and Western society is still where it is. :o :o :o It's a numbers game and fools always easily outnumber smart academics. ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Rods2 on 13 May 2018, 01:58:57
Go and visit your local mental health hospital and take a bit of time to study the people who have had their brains fried by smoking the shit, then you might see the justification for keeping it illegal.
Many of them will be well below the age of 18 by the way.
This is a subject very close to my heart, and I find it frustrating when people are glib about it.  :-X

The question here where skunk cannabis has known psychotic long term effects on the brain especially young brains, would legal lower strength help? I defer to your frontline experience, before I voice any opinion.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 13 May 2018, 07:49:06
If lower strength stuff was legalised and skunk wasn't, skunk would be what everyone wanted to smoke. Smoking the weak legal shit just wouldn't be cool for the average 14 / 15 year old.
It would be like drinking alcopops instead of vodka.
Half the reason they start smoking it in the first place is that its a rebellious thing to do. Its called being young I suppose.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 13 May 2018, 13:37:50
If lower strength stuff was legalised and skunk wasn't, skunk would be what everyone wanted to smoke. Smoking the weak legal shit just wouldn't be cool for the average 14 / 15 year old.
It would be like drinking alcopops instead of vodka.
Half the reason they start smoking it in the first place is that its a rebellious thing to do. Its called being young I suppose.

And that is one of my previous points.  With legalisation there would be a loss of the "rebellious glamour" in using the awful stuff.  It would no longer be attractive as a 'one in the eye' for authority.  It would become (hopefully) a boring thing to do.

My case is that there must be a new approach to cannabis because what is being tried at the moment is not working, at least from a police point of view judging from what I am being told.  After legalisation of weed must then be an approach of all resources, along with the whole justice system, fighting without mercy the production and supply of all class 'A's.

The original point of this thread was about pensioners paying for the future as much as the youngsters.  With a funding crisis in the NHS, Mental Health Services, Elderly Care, the extra (apparently) £6 billion legalisation of cannabis could raise, along with extra funding for the police to fight all other drug use, must be one approach worth considering.  I intended not to discuss anything political again on the OOF, but I feel so strongly on this one that it is worth commenting on regardless of any comments (that I welcome) that could be stirred up. :y
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 13 May 2018, 14:34:16
Not to mention that it does have some wholly legitimate medical uses, and is far less dangerous than alcohol or tobacco....

Overall I’m really not certain what the rational justification is for keeping it illegal.
Depends on the person.

We all know alcohol impacts people differently, and all know chain smokers, 20 a day, all their life, living into their 90s.

As there are people who are mentally oppsed up through smoking a bit too much weed.

That is not chain smoking TB.  60-80 per day is the measure of true chain smoking.  One of our past company directors smoked at least 60 Capstan Full Strength per day; he was already down to one lung in his 50's, and breathless most of the time retiring early.

One of my uncles, along with my auntie chain smoked to the tune of 80 each per day, being used to duty free cigs when in the Royal Navy.  He lost both legs, and like her died in their late 50's.

I could go on with other family examples with those who smoked constantly when it was once socially acceptable, and "so good for your health" (!!!) to do so, and although I worked in a retail company selling the bloody stuff, but never smoking it myself, I have always wanted to ban tobacco products.

 But that would do no good, no more than the current criminalisation of smoking cannibis. Cannibis (directly or indirectly) tobacco and alcohol all kills or shortens life in the long run, so let the government control cannibis use as it does the rest, produce revenue, and gradually reduce consumption as it has with tobacco and alcohol (yes figures are showing that there has been a drop in youngsters consumption) ,along with an overall decline in public houses. Then the police can target other criminal activity, which often is funded by cannibis production and supply, including the supply and use of class 'A' drugs.

Who knows, Lizzie. Maybe a few years from now new evidence will emerge that 20 Capstan full strength  can be considered one of  your 'five a day'. ;) :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 13 May 2018, 15:58:32
If lower strength stuff was legalised and skunk wasn't, skunk would be what everyone wanted to smoke. Smoking the weak legal shit just wouldn't be cool for the average 14 / 15 year old.
It would be like drinking alcopops instead of vodka.
Half the reason they start smoking it in the first place is that its a rebellious thing to do. Its called being young I suppose.

And that is one of my previous points.  With legalisation there would be a loss of the "rebellious glamour" in using the awful stuff.  It would no longer be attractive as a 'one in the eye' for authority.  It would become (hopefully) a boring thing to do.

My case is that there must be a new approach to cannabis because what is being tried at the moment is not working, at least from a police point of view judging from what I am being told.  After legalisation of weed must then be an approach of all resources, along with the whole justice system, fighting without mercy the production and supply of all class 'A's.

The original point of this thread was about pensioners paying for the future as much as the youngsters.  With a funding crisis in the NHS, Mental Health Services, Elderly Care, the extra (apparently) £6 billion legalisation of cannabis could raise, along with extra funding for the police to fight all other drug use, must be one approach worth considering.  I intended not to discuss anything political again on the OOF, but I feel so strongly on this one that it is worth commenting on regardless of any comments (that I welcome) that could be stirred up. :y
Nonsense... Smoking was legal at 16 as was buying tobacco, yet even Sixth Form at school got detention, a fine and loss of privileges for a week or two... Prefects even got demoted. Oddly enough, half the Sixth Form, not to mention the fourth and fifth forms used to smoke regardless ::)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 13 May 2018, 18:00:41
If lower strength stuff was legalised and skunk wasn't, skunk would be what everyone wanted to smoke. Smoking the weak legal shit just wouldn't be cool for the average 14 / 15 year old.
It would be like drinking alcopops instead of vodka.
Half the reason they start smoking it in the first place is that its a rebellious thing to do. Its called being young I suppose.

And that is one of my previous points.  With legalisation there would be a loss of the "rebellious glamour" in using the awful stuff.  It would no longer be attractive as a 'one in the eye' for authority.  It would become (hopefully) a boring thing to do.

My case is that there must be a new approach to cannabis because what is being tried at the moment is not working, at least from a police point of view judging from what I am being told.  After legalisation of weed must then be an approach of all resources, along with the whole justice system, fighting without mercy the production and supply of all class 'A's.

The original point of this thread was about pensioners paying for the future as much as the youngsters.  With a funding crisis in the NHS, Mental Health Services, Elderly Care, the extra (apparently) £6 billion legalisation of cannabis could raise, along with extra funding for the police to fight all other drug use, must be one approach worth considering.  I intended not to discuss anything political again on the OOF, but I feel so strongly on this one that it is worth commenting on regardless of any comments (that I welcome) that could be stirred up. :y
Nonsense... Smoking was legal at 16 as was buying tobacco, yet even Sixth Form at school got detention, a fine and loss of privileges for a week or two... Prefects even got demoted. Oddly enough, half the Sixth Form, not to mention the fourth and fifth forms used to smoke regardless ::)
. But smoking is sooooo yesterday, with just 5% of children aged 8 to 15 years now smoking, down 75% from 2003.  It was considered to be rebellious to smoke in school, behind the bike sheds, but now it is recognised as being a stupid thing to do which is expensive now that so many adults do not have cigarettes in the house that can be 'aquisitioned' :D ;)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: BazaJT on 13 May 2018, 18:53:31
I began smoking not because it was rebellious but because it was the "grown up" thing to do at the time.Other than a couple of short lived failed attempts to stop I've smoked from my mid teens-and yes at one point for some time I was on 80 a day and still smoke 20-30 a day.It's a filthy habit expensive and given half a chance it'll kill you,but still I do it.Never tried any of the illegal drugs though.At one time I'd never have voted for legalising cannabis etc.,however the "war on drugs"has been and still is a costly failure so some kind of different approach is needed whether that's legalising it or not I don't know but there doesn't seem to me too many other alternatives.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: TheBoy on 14 May 2018, 18:12:00
But smoking is sooooo yesterday, with just 5% of children aged 8 to 15 years now smoking, down 75% from 2003.  It was considered to be rebellious to smoke in school, behind the bike sheds, but now it is recognised as being a stupid thing to do which is expensive now that so many adults do not have cigarettes in the house that can be 'aquisitioned' :D ;)
I think you are believing the hype from the NHS and various official departments.

I suspect they make figures up to achieve targets, as I can only see more secondary school kids smoking at lunchtime than ever before.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: STEMO on 14 May 2018, 18:20:41
I see plenty of 'school kids' smoking. I put school kids in commas because most of them are now bigger and stronger than me, and quite a few have beards  ;D They don't do it furtively either, they are very open about it.  I mean, how do you stop a 6' 2", 13 stone teenager from smoking, other than telling them they'll be sorry later in life?
The rugby team at my sons old secondary school, all 16 and 17 year olds, used to go into town for a piss up after a match  :o
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 14 May 2018, 18:25:23
Quite right too :D
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 14 May 2018, 19:52:31
But smoking is sooooo yesterday, with just 5% of children aged 8 to 15 years now smoking, down 75% from 2003.  It was considered to be rebellious to smoke in school, behind the bike sheds, but now it is recognised as being a stupid thing to do which is expensive now that so many adults do not have cigarettes in the house that can be 'aquisitioned' :D ;)
I think you are believing the hype from the NHS and various official departments.

I suspect they make figures up to achieve targets, as I can only see more secondary school kids smoking at lunchtime than ever before.

No TB, Cancer Research as well, that actually has regular under 16 smokers down to just 3%.

But, to quote a phrase often used on the OOF, don't let facts get in the way of a good story. Passing school gates and seeing some young smokers, who could anyway be 16 or over, is a far more reliable measure than officially produced statistics from an organisation like CR who you would think should inflate the figures! ::) ::) ;)
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 14 May 2018, 20:23:00
Whether they are 16 or not, it is illegal to purchase cigarettes below the age of 18, and presumably just as illegal to supply them to someone who cannot legally purchase them.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 14 May 2018, 20:41:57
Whether they are 16 or not, it is illegal to purchase cigarettes below the age of 18, and presumably just as illegal to supply them to someone who cannot legally purchase them.

Absolutely right.

However, even when the legal age was 16 the minors still managed to get hold of cigarettes, so obviously some things never change!  No doubt, as previously, some stupid parents let their children smoke their cigarettes or older 'children' buy the cigarettes for the flock around them.

 Like with all laws, it requires extra police resource to hammer down on law breakers, but the police have enough on their hands tackling drug and drink issues with the young to worry too much about kids smoking at the school gates.  Wrong I know, but that is a reality of life.
Title: Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
Post by: TheBoy on 15 May 2018, 19:26:53
But smoking is sooooo yesterday, with just 5% of children aged 8 to 15 years now smoking, down 75% from 2003.  It was considered to be rebellious to smoke in school, behind the bike sheds, but now it is recognised as being a stupid thing to do which is expensive now that so many adults do not have cigarettes in the house that can be 'aquisitioned' :D ;)
I think you are believing the hype from the NHS and various official departments.

I suspect they make figures up to achieve targets, as I can only see more secondary school kids smoking at lunchtime than ever before.

No TB, Cancer Research as well, that actually has regular under 16 smokers down to just 3%.

But, to quote a phrase often used on the OOF, don't let facts get in the way of a good story. Passing school gates and seeing some young smokers, who could anyway be 16 or over, is a far more reliable measure than officially produced statistics from an organisation like CR who you would think should inflate the figures! ::) ::) ;)
In order to get further funding, these organisations and charities have to find some statistic to show they are making a difference. Sadly that's the way things work now.

But as you say, don't let (made up) facts get in the way of a good story ;)