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Author Topic: 309-305  (Read 8160 times)

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Shackeng

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Re: 309-305
« Reply #30 on: 14 December 2017, 15:01:03 »

Like Gadarene swine, as if possessed by demons, they would gallop us all into the swamp that is, or will be, the United States of Europe. >:( >:( >:(
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Migv6 le Frog Fan

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Re: 309-305
« Reply #31 on: 14 December 2017, 16:07:04 »


My understanding is that this vote was about Parliament having the right to vote on the deal before it gets that far.

Yes, that's true.

There is a big chunk of citizens' rights which only exist because of our membership of the EU. Free travel, right to settle in other EU countries etc etc. If the negotiated deal doesn't include all of those rights (and the entire point of this exercise is that it won't) then, previously parliament would have been given the choice as to whether they take citizens rights away (through the deal) or whether they take them away (through a no-deal). In effect, May, Davis et al will have been able to take away citizens rights while circumventing parliament. Now, in order for those rights to be removed, a majority of our elected representatives will have to decide that that is the right course of action.

Worse than that, they could get it through the commons and then have it voted down by the Lords.
So a few hundred unelected has beens could overturn the expressed will of 17.4 million voters.
How is that Democratic, representative or otherwise ?

Um... Parliament Act.....

Those rights you speak of were usually introduced without a vote taking place in Parliament, although I haven't checked the specific ones you mention.
I imagine using the Parliament act in those circumstances could cause civil war to break out in the Westminster bubble, and may cause some kind of constitutional crisis ?
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annihilator

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Re: 309-305
« Reply #32 on: 14 December 2017, 17:28:10 »

and I thought this was about which model of Peugeot car to buy  ;D
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: 309-305
« Reply #33 on: 14 December 2017, 17:35:05 »


Worse than that, they could get it through the commons and then have it voted down by the Lords.
So a few hundred unelected has beens could overturn the expressed will of 17.4 million voters.
How is that Democratic, representative or otherwise ?

But that is the thing; just 17.4 million voted to leave out of 46.5 million eligible to vote.  So those who are meant to represent us in the Commons and House of Lords should be mindful that the majority of voters, some 29 million, did not vote to leave but will still expect fair representation. ;)
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Shackeng

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Re: 309-305
« Reply #34 on: 14 December 2017, 18:05:50 »


Worse than that, they could get it through the commons and then have it voted down by the Lords.
So a few hundred unelected has beens could overturn the expressed will of 17.4 million voters.
How is that Democratic, representative or otherwise ?

But that is the thing; just 17.4 million voted to leave out of 46.5 million eligible to vote.  So those who are meant to represent us in the Commons and House of Lords should be mindful that the majority of voters, some 29 million, did not vote to leave but will still expect fair representation. ;)

Nor did they vote not to leave, so yes, where is their fair representation?
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Migv6 le Frog Fan

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Re: 309-305
« Reply #35 on: 14 December 2017, 18:18:26 »


Worse than that, they could get it through the commons and then have it voted down by the Lords.
So a few hundred unelected has beens could overturn the expressed will of 17.4 million voters.
How is that Democratic, representative or otherwise ?

But that is the thing; just 17.4 million voted to leave out of 46.5 million eligible to vote.  So those who are meant to represent us in the Commons and House of Lords should be mindful that the majority of voters, some 29 million, did not vote to leave but will still expect fair representation. ;)

Nope. More people voted to leave than remain - more than ever voted for anything in the history of the country actually - and their will prevails. That is how our democracy has always worked.
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: 309-305
« Reply #36 on: 14 December 2017, 18:33:38 »


But that is the thing; just 17.4 million voted to leave out of 46.5 million eligible to vote.  So those who are meant to represent us in the Commons and House of Lords should be mindful that the majority of voters, some 29 million, did not vote to leave but will still expect fair representation. ;)

Oh jeez, you're peddling that crap that those who couldn't be arsed to vote would have voted to remain.  ::)

I didn't think I'd have to give you of all people lectures in how democracy works Lizzie, but those who don't vote for whatever reason whether it's a general election, parish council election or a referendum, are content to go along with the decision of the majority who did vote.  That's how it works! ;)

In this case, the government was given an instruction by the people, and the government of the day that organised the referendum promised to carry out the instructions of the people.  Poll after poll indicates that the people just want the government to get on with it.  ::)

I think it's plain to most that there are significant numbers of British parliamentarians elected and unelected who are seeking to frustrate the process of leaving the European Union, and are dressing their actions up as protecting Parliamentary Sovereignty.  The best way to restore and protect Parliamentary Sovereignty is to have a clean break with the EU and all it's institutions.  :) 


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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: 309-305
« Reply #37 on: 14 December 2017, 18:45:20 »


But that is the thing; just 17.4 million voted to leave out of 46.5 million eligible to vote.  So those who are meant to represent us in the Commons and House of Lords should be mindful that the majority of voters, some 29 million, did not vote to leave but will still expect fair representation. ;)

Oh jeez, you're peddling that crap that those who couldn't be arsed to vote would have voted to remain.  ::)

I didn't think I'd have to give you of all people lectures in how democracy works Lizzie, but those who don't vote for whatever reason whether it's a general election, parish council election or a referendum, are content to go along with the decision of the majority who did vote.  That's how it works! ;)

In this case, the government was given an instruction by the people, and the government of the day that organised the referendum promised to carry out the instructions of the people.  Poll after poll indicates that the people just want the government to get on with it.  ::)

I think it's plain to most that there are significant numbers of British parliamentarians elected and unelected who are seeking to frustrate the process of leaving the European Union, and are dressing their actions up as protecting Parliamentary Sovereignty.  The best way to restore and protect Parliamentary Sovereignty is to have a clean break with the EU and all it's institutions.  :)

Yes, of course that is right.  But the MP's represent their constituencies, and ALL the people within them, regardless of whether they vote or not, and for whom.  Our's is a representative Democracy, and that is why the MP's have to consider all points of view.

Unquestionably out of the people who voted in the referendum a majority, of 4%, did vote to leave.  But if Parliament want to avoid a riot or revolution, it has to also recognise all points of view surrounding the terms of Brexit.  It cannot just do as it pleases and only consider the wishes of the 17.4 million who voted to leave, and only follow one path to Brexit, with no opportunity to consider the FACTS, not the hopes at the time of the Referendum. It must also satisfy the rest of the populations expectations.  That IS politics; that IS Democracy ;)
« Last Edit: 14 December 2017, 18:48:41 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: 309-305
« Reply #38 on: 14 December 2017, 18:52:44 »


But that is the thing; just 17.4 million voted to leave out of 46.5 million eligible to vote.  So those who are meant to represent us in the Commons and House of Lords should be mindful that the majority of voters, some 29 million, did not vote to leave but will still expect fair representation. ;)

Oh jeez, you're peddling that crap that those who couldn't be arsed to vote would have voted to remain.  ::)

I didn't think I'd have to give you of all people lectures in how democracy works Lizzie, but those who don't vote for whatever reason whether it's a general election, parish council election or a referendum, are content to go along with the decision of the majority who did vote.  That's how it works! ;)

In this case, the government was given an instruction by the people, and the government of the day that organised the referendum promised to carry out the instructions of the people.  Poll after poll indicates that the people just want the government to get on with it.  ::)

I think it's plain to most that there are significant numbers of British parliamentarians elected and unelected who are seeking to frustrate the process of leaving the European Union, and are dressing their actions up as protecting Parliamentary Sovereignty.  The best way to restore and protect Parliamentary Sovereignty is to have a clean break with the EU and all it's institutions.  :)

Yes, of course that is right.  But the MP's represent their constituencies, and ALL the people within them, regardless of whether they vote or not, and for whom.  Our's is a representative Democracy, and that is why the MP's have to consider all points of view.

Unquestionably out of the people who voted in the referendum a majority, of 4%, did vote to leave.  But if Parliament want to avoid a riot or revolution, it has to also recognise all points of view surrounding the terms of Brexit.  It cannot just do as it pleases and only consider the wishes of the 17.4 million who voted to leave, and only follow one path to Brexit, with no opportunity to consider the FACTS, not the hopes at the time of the Referendum. It must also satisfy the rest of the populations expectations.  That IS politics; that IS Democracy ;)

So if the referendum result had been 52%-48% in favour of remaining in the EU would we now have a 'soft remain' to take account of the 48% who voted to leave?  Of course not!  ::)

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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: 309-305
« Reply #39 on: 14 December 2017, 19:01:01 »


But that is the thing; just 17.4 million voted to leave out of 46.5 million eligible to vote.  So those who are meant to represent us in the Commons and House of Lords should be mindful that the majority of voters, some 29 million, did not vote to leave but will still expect fair representation. ;)

Oh jeez, you're peddling that crap that those who couldn't be arsed to vote would have voted to remain.  ::)

I didn't think I'd have to give you of all people lectures in how democracy works Lizzie, but those who don't vote for whatever reason whether it's a general election, parish council election or a referendum, are content to go along with the decision of the majority who did vote.  That's how it works! ;)

In this case, the government was given an instruction by the people, and the government of the day that organised the referendum promised to carry out the instructions of the people.  Poll after poll indicates that the people just want the government to get on with it.  ::)

I think it's plain to most that there are significant numbers of British parliamentarians elected and unelected who are seeking to frustrate the process of leaving the European Union, and are dressing their actions up as protecting Parliamentary Sovereignty.  The best way to restore and protect Parliamentary Sovereignty is to have a clean break with the EU and all it's institutions.  :)

Yes, of course that is right.  But the MP's represent their constituencies, and ALL the people within them, regardless of whether they vote or not, and for whom.  Our's is a representative Democracy, and that is why the MP's have to consider all points of view.

Unquestionably out of the people who voted in the referendum a majority, of 4%, did vote to leave.  But if Parliament want to avoid a riot or revolution, it has to also recognise all points of view surrounding the terms of Brexit.  It cannot just do as it pleases and only consider the wishes of the 17.4 million who voted to leave, and only follow one path to Brexit, with no opportunity to consider the FACTS, not the hopes at the time of the Referendum. It must also satisfy the rest of the populations expectations.  That IS politics; that IS Democracy ;)

So if the referendum result had been 52%-48% in favour of remaining in the EU would we now have a 'soft remain' to take account of the 48% who voted to leave?  Of course not!  ::)

Actually yes, it would have made a difference.  No government could have ignored the indicated wishes of those who voted to leave.  It would have to reviewed our approach to Europe, and even do what Scotland are considering; going back to the eople with a new referendum after many changes had taken place, or not.  Politicians do not just live by the result of the last vote; they have to modify their offer to the people to keep them onside as, of course, this is a democracy with regular General Elections (we could have another one coming up soon if discussions over Brexit do not improve and May has to go) so the politicians have to keep apace with those changes.

Nothing is written in concrete.  Just look at the past 350 years of English / British political history.  The people's will will prevail ;)
« Last Edit: 14 December 2017, 19:03:17 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Migv6 le Frog Fan

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Re: 309-305
« Reply #40 on: 14 December 2017, 19:02:51 »

Many, possibly most of the Tory rebels who voted against the Govt. last night represent constituencies which voted to leave.  ;)
In the main, our politicians have a long history of completely ignoring their electors and actually treating them with contempt.
This has never been more true than the lies and contempt shown over the last four decades regarding the EEC/ EU.
We were promised by them that voting to join would not result in any loss of sovereigny whetsoever, but Heath, Clarke. Heseltine etc. all later admitted that they knew it was to be a U.S.E but if they told the truth at the time they would never have won the vote.
Clark later boasted that he looked forward to the day when Westminster was nothing more than a glorified council chamber (he got his wish), and Heseltine said as recently as last wek that a U.S.E.  is what he wants, and he still wants us to be a part of it.
These and their like are the people who are now claiming to be fierce Guardians of our precious Parliamentary democracy.
If you believe that, you will believe anything.  ::)
« Last Edit: 14 December 2017, 19:12:16 by Migv6 »
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: 309-305
« Reply #41 on: 14 December 2017, 19:05:52 »

Many, possibly most of the Tory rebels who voted against the Govt. last night represent constituencies which voted to leave.  ;)

That is democracy in action as they know that Brexit should happen but are unhappy about what May and Team have "agreed" or not agreed so far ;)
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Re: 309-305
« Reply #42 on: 14 December 2017, 19:09:50 »

.........OR, being cynical, is it possible that "the rebels" want to derail the Brexit process and see May go so they can organise a new approach to remain in the EU, but in a far simplified form? ::) ::) ::)
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Migv6 le Frog Fan

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Re: 309-305
« Reply #43 on: 14 December 2017, 19:14:01 »

Many, possibly most of the Tory rebels who voted against the Govt. last night represent constituencies which voted to leave.  ;)

That is democracy in action as they know that Brexit should happen but are unhappy about what May and Team have "agreed" or not agreed so far ;)

Wrong again. Its patently obvious that they are trying to stop Brexit, but still claim that wasn't what they intended after they have done it.
Lord Adonis let the cat out of the bag this morning "this is the first step in stopping Brexit".
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Re: 309-305
« Reply #44 on: 14 December 2017, 19:15:46 »


So if the referendum result had been 52%-48% in favour of remaining in the EU would we now have a 'soft remain' to take account of the 48% who voted to leave?  Of course not!  ::)

Actually yes, it would have made a difference.  No government could have ignored the indicated wishes of those who voted to leave.
It would have to reviewed our approach to Europe, and even do what Scotland are considering; going back to the eople with a new referendum after many changes had taken place, or not.  Politicians do not just live by the result of the last vote; they have to modify their offer to the people to keep them onside as, of course, this is a democracy with regular General Elections (we could have another one coming up soon if discussions over Brexit do not improve and May has to go) so the politicians have to keep apace with those changes.

Nothing is written in concrete.  Just look at the past 350 years of English / British political history.  The people's will will prevail ;)

Sorry Lizzie, but I think that is absolute rubbish!  ::)

Cameron would have strutted around as if he was Drake, Nelson, Wellington and Churchill all rolled into one as the man who 'reformed' the EU and secured Britain's place in Brussels, conveniently ignoring the fact that they offered him very little.  :(  Meanwhile Farage would have been yelling Foul from the rooftops and would have demanded a second referendum.  ::)

The vast majority of parliamentarians would have treated the idea of a second referendum with scorn and derision (especially the LibDems).  The whole idea of Britain leaving the EU would have been kicked into the long grass and those who campaigned for it would have been in the political wilderness for a very long time!  ;)
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