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[Varche]

On the reliability thread there are some comments about powershift (Ford) , DSG  (VW platform vehicles).

We still haven't found a suitable secondhand car (Golf estate size) and will start looking again once the market starts up post Xmas break.

We had a Golf dsg hire car. I thought it was brilliant apart from it being a 1.6. Loaded up on big hills it struggled. I liked the steering wheel paddles though mostly used D or sport mode.

What is vauxhalls offering like? We won't be touching any car without full service history including filter and gearbox oil changes.

I am always mindful of the AR25 /AR 35 scenario with the 2.5 BMW diesel in Omegas for example. We are looking at the more powerful diesel engines (150 in VAG, 163 in Opel)

[STEMO]

You’re not going to find a three year old Vauxhall that’s had gearbox oil and filter changes. Why would anyone want to do that within three years? My 2.0l diesel auto fluid can only be changed by a specialist, according to Honest John, as the torque converter has to be drained.

[Shackeng]

You’re not going to find a three year old Vauxhall that’s had gearbox oil and filter changes. Why would anyone want to do that within three years? My 2.0l diesel auto fluid can only be changed by a specialist, according to Honest John, as the torque converter has to be drained.

For which read, ^^^ this so that we can gouge as much as possible out of you.

[STEMO]

You’re not going to find a three year old Vauxhall that’s had gearbox oil and filter changes. Why would anyone want to do that within three years? My 2.0l diesel auto fluid can only be changed by a specialist, according to Honest John, as the torque converter has to be drained.

For which read, ^^^ this so that we can gouge as much as possible out of you.

I think touching an auto box that is behaving normally before a certain time is taking preventative maintenance a step too far, Chris. You’re probably right, it would be expensive but people of ‘a certain age’ have got to realise that cars are not built to last 20 years nowadays, or at least folk don’t expect, or even want, them to last that long.
My astra will be long gone before the gearbox needs any work doing.
10 years or 100,000 miles is when most people consider a car is past it.

[tunnie]

The Auto box in the Zaf is traditional one, no silly clutch setup to make it like a manual or what ever DSG does.

It’s fine, unlike Omega it appears to disengage at lights when in D, so the drag is a lot less when waiting at junction. Zaf changes smoothly and so far all good.

Have you looked at Insignia? (Sure you probably have) suspect one of these in auto is about as solid as you would get for the money.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

You’re not going to find a three year old Vauxhall that’s had gearbox oil and filter changes. Why would anyone want to do that within three years? My 2.0l diesel auto fluid can only be changed by a specialist, according to Honest John, as the torque converter has to be drained.

For which read, ^^^ this so that we can gouge as much as possible out of you.

I think touching an auto box that is behaving normally before a certain time is taking preventative maintenance a step too far, Chris. You’re probably right, it would be expensive but people of ‘a certain age’ have got to realise that cars are not built to last 20 years nowadays, or at least folk don’t expect, or even want, them to last that long.
My astra will be long gone before the gearbox needs any work doing.
10 years or 100,000 miles is when most people consider a car is past it.

But ALL the Omega on here are older than that.

[STEMO]

If Varche decides to buy a Vauxhall, he is buying what is considered a ‘throwaway’ after eight to ten years. They are worth eff all after five, so why spend money on them? The list price ( ) of mine was over £26000 and I got it at just over three years old for £8500 with 20000 miles on it. If I keep it three years and put another 45000 on it, what’s a six year old Vauxhall with 65000 miles on it worth? Not much.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

You’re not going to find a three year old Vauxhall that’s had gearbox oil and filter changes. Why would anyone want to do that within three years? My 2.0l diesel auto fluid can only be changed by a specialist, according to Honest John, as the torque converter has to be drained.

For which read, ^^^ this so that we can gouge as much as possible out of you.

I think touching an auto box that is behaving normally before a certain time is taking preventative maintenance a step too far, Chris. You’re probably right, it would be expensive but people of ‘a certain age’ have got to realise that cars are not built to last 20 years nowadays, or at least folk don’t expect, or even want, them to last that long.
I'll be dead and gone  before the gearbox needs any work doing.
10 years or 100,000 miles is when most people consider a car is past it.

I imagine you will.

[STEMO]

You’re not going to find a three year old Vauxhall that’s had gearbox oil and filter changes. Why would anyone want to do that within three years? My 2.0l diesel auto fluid can only be changed by a specialist, according to Honest John, as the torque converter has to be drained.

For which read, ^^^ this so that we can gouge as much as possible out of you.

I think touching an auto box that is behaving normally before a certain time is taking preventative maintenance a step too far, Chris. You’re probably right, it would be expensive but people of ‘a certain age’ have got to realise that cars are not built to last 20 years nowadays, or at least folk don’t expect, or even want, them to last that long.
My astra will be long gone before the gearbox needs any work doing.
10 years or 100,000 miles is when most people consider a car is past it.

But ALL the Omega on here are older than that.

Vauxhall don’t build luxury exec cars any more and, let’s face it, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Not many outside of our little clan would even consider owning an omega. Why would they?
People don’t want to maintain their cars any more.

[Kevin Wood]

The AR25 in TD issue is more to do with the box being marginal on its ratings for the torque output. The vast majority of failures were probably on chipped Omegas, although the box wasn't as long-lived on non-chipped TDs as the rest of the AR25/35 cars in the range.

I think it's a tough one if it has to be a diesel. Manual boxes suffer DMF issues. Dual clutch gearboxes are a "brave" choice on powerful petrol or diesel cars. Everyone I know who has had a DSG gearbox has had to sell the car on for peanuts at less then intergalactic mileage because the box was playing up. I keep coming back to traditional torque converter auto boxes. They are old, proven technology and the good ones are bomb proof*.


* - poor / fragile / underspecified ones also available, especially on diesels so do your homework.

[STEMO]

In my opinion, my auto gearbox will last as long as I want it to if I give it a bit of respect. When the engine is cold, I accelerate very gently and let the gears change smoothly until up to temp. I have no need to kick down very often as, with a bit of pedal control, it accelerates quite well in any gear. In other words, if you are a bit of a boy racer then an auto box is not for you. If your car, in general, gets an easy life, then an auto box is fine.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Varche, both the power shift and DSG are not true auto boxes, they are manual cog boxes with actuators to change the gears and operate the clutches.

Dual clutches are only used so as to get short gear change times (as the next gear up is already engaged).

The Astra etc use a traditional auto box and to be fair, they are bulletproof.

The DSG works well in a car with power where you want to whip through the gears and get shifting quickly.....there pretty pointless in a bog standard spec car and reliability can be problematic (I guess much better with motorway use and fewer changes), they did also get dry clutch on later ones which would potentially be an unknown.

So if you change cogs a lot and want an auto then you ideally want a 'proper auto', if you don't change cogs a lot and want an auto, then get either.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

The AR25 in TD issue is more to do with the box being marginal on its ratings for the torque output. The vast majority of failures were probably on chipped Omegas, although the box wasn't as long-lived on non-chipped TDs as the rest of the AR25/35 cars in the range.

I think it's a tough one if it has to be a diesel. Manual boxes suffer DMF issues. Dual clutch gearboxes are a "brave" choice on powerful petrol or diesel cars. Everyone I know who has had a DSG gearbox has had to sell the car on for peanuts at less then intergalactic mileage because the box was playing up. I keep coming back to traditional torque converter auto boxes. They are old, proven technology and the good ones are bomb proof*.


* - poor / fragile / underspecified ones also available, especially on diesels so do your homework.

I'd thought the 'old-fashioned' torque converter auto box, like the ZF 8 speed auto fitted to my Jag and others were the last of an era.

Not so it seems. They seem to be making a comeback. 

[Marks DTM Calib]

The AR25 in TD issue is more to do with the box being marginal on its ratings for the torque output. The vast majority of failures were probably on chipped Omegas, although the box wasn't as long-lived on non-chipped TDs as the rest of the AR25/35 cars in the range.

I think it's a tough one if it has to be a diesel. Manual boxes suffer DMF issues. Dual clutch gearboxes are a "brave" choice on powerful petrol or diesel cars. Everyone I know who has had a DSG gearbox has had to sell the car on for peanuts at less then intergalactic mileage because the box was playing up. I keep coming back to traditional torque converter auto boxes. They are old, proven technology and the good ones are bomb proof*.


* - poor / fragile / underspecified ones also available, especially on diesels so do your homework.

I'd thought the 'old-fashioned' torque converter auto box, like the ZF 8 speed auto fitted to my Jag and others were the last of an era.

Not so it seems. They seem to be making a comeback.

They never went away, far from it.

The ZF 8HP is a cracking gearbox and used by pretty much every rear wheel drive car manufacturer out there (except Ford and GM!)......and the new AWD variant is being adopted by VAG group.......

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

The AR25 in TD issue is more to do with the box being marginal on its ratings for the torque output. The vast majority of failures were probably on chipped Omegas, although the box wasn't as long-lived on non-chipped TDs as the rest of the AR25/35 cars in the range.

I think it's a tough one if it has to be a diesel. Manual boxes suffer DMF issues. Dual clutch gearboxes are a "brave" choice on powerful petrol or diesel cars. Everyone I know who has had a DSG gearbox has had to sell the car on for peanuts at less then intergalactic mileage because the box was playing up. I keep coming back to traditional torque converter auto boxes. They are old, proven technology and the good ones are bomb proof*.


* - poor / fragile / underspecified ones also available, especially on diesels so do your homework.

I'd thought the 'old-fashioned' torque converter auto box, like the ZF 8 speed auto fitted to my Jag and others were the last of an era.

Not so it seems. They seem to be making a comeback.

They never went away, far from it.

The ZF 8HP is a cracking gearbox and used by pretty much every rear wheel drive car manufacturer out there (except Ford and GM!)......and the new AWD variant is being adopted by VAG group.......

Agreed.

Using paddles and sport mode the changes seem 'almost instantaneous' and I can't see how a DCT would be much quicker.......and probably not as smooth.

The new 600 BHP BMW M5 is moving away from DCT.

[Marks DTM Calib]

The ZF is about a 200ms change, some of the DSGs can do a single change in 8ms.....although the second change is MUCH slower and down shifting/kick down is very slow at 600ms  as the engine ECU has to blip the throttle to match the crankshaft speed to the DSG input shaft

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

The ZF is about a 200ms change, some of the DSGs can do a single change in 8ms.....although the second change is MUCH slower and down shifting/kick down is very slow at 600ms  as the engine ECU has to blip the throttle to match the crankshaft speed to the DSG input shaft

I think that equates to 0.2 sec......or 1/5th of a second in old money. Presumably far quicker than the the 3 speed auto (GM or Borg Warner) used in the XJS forty years ago.

[Kevin Wood]

The ZF is about a 200ms change, some of the DSGs can do a single change in 8ms.....although the second change is MUCH slower and down shifting/kick down is very slow at 600ms  as the engine ECU has to blip the throttle to match the crankshaft speed to the DSG input shaft

I think that equates to 0.2 sec......or 1/5th of a second in old money. Presumably far quicker than the the 3 speed auto (GM or Borg Warner) used in the XJS forty years ago.

Very much so if not only because it has so many more ratios, so the rev change is much less. (and you haven't most likely got an enormous V12 crank and flywheel to accelerate / decelerate).

[Varche]

You’re not going to find a three year old Vauxhall that’s had gearbox oil and filter changes. Why would anyone want to do that within three years? My 2.0l diesel auto fluid can only be changed by a specialist, according to Honest John, as the torque converter has to be drained.

For which read, ^^^ this so that we can gouge as much as possible out of you.

I think touching an auto box that is behaving normally before a certain time is taking preventative maintenance a step too far, Chris. You’re probably right, it would be expensive but people of ‘a certain age’ have got to realise that cars are not built to last 20 years nowadays, or at least folk don’t expect, or even want, them to last that long.
My astra will be long gone before the gearbox needs any work doing.
10 years or 100,000 miles is when most people consider a car is past it.

And I am back in the room.... What you say here is I am afraid exactly the problem I am encountering. Everyone knows you must change the engine oil and filter and so do that especially on diesels. Everything else is unessary and an expense. Hence the 50k miles( I think) DSG gearbox oil and filter change is skipped. then when they get to about 100k miles they suddenly realise they should have done it. So they flog the car. By the way 100,000 miles is a young car here. I have seen two year old cars with that on.

[STEMO]

Yes, but you asked about Vauxhall’s, and they don’t have DSG boxes, they have torque converters.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

What type of box are you going specify in your new car, now the Astra is a pile of ash in that car park ?   

[TD]

The Auto box in the Zaf is traditional one, no silly clutch setup to make it like a manual or what ever DSG does.

It’s fine, unlike Omega it appears to disengage at lights when in D, so the drag is a lot less when waiting at junction. Zaf changes smoothly and so far all good.

Have you looked at Insignia? (Sure you probably have) suspect one of these in auto is about as solid as you would get for the money.

And what a pain in the arris, that is! I once owned a Vectra 2.5 V6 auto that did that....Stamp on the go pedal for a rapid depart and the first thing you notice is a slight delay then a ruddy great thump as 1st engages!
When i wanted a rapid go, i quite often use to hold the handbrake on and give it slight revs to stop it disengaging 

[Varche]

Yes, but you asked about Vauxhall’s, and they don’t have DSG boxes, they have torque converters.

I did ask about VX's and also other auto boxes. following the comments about Dsg and powershift on the other thread.

Had a look at an Insignia but wasn't impressed by the equipment level. Not many high specced models about. Did have a test of an Astra estate with 163 bhp engine and auto box. Drove well but wasn't impressed with the boot.

[STEMO]

Yes, but you asked about Vauxhall’s, and they don’t have DSG boxes, they have torque converters.

I did ask about VX's and also other auto boxes. following the comments about Dsg and powershift on the other thread.

Had a look at an Insignia but wasn't impressed by the equipment level. Not many high specced models about. Did have a test of an Astra estate with 163 bhp engine and auto box. Drove well but wasn't impressed with the boot.

That’s the engine I have and I like it. Plenty of poke when needed but quite happy footling around, and I’m getting 44mpg around town.
Afraid I can’t stretch the boot for you though. Sounds to me like you need a transit van.

[Andy B]

The Auto box in the Zaf is traditional one, no silly clutch setup to make it like a manual or what ever DSG does.

It’s fine, unlike Omega it appears to disengage at lights when in D, so the drag is a lot less when waiting at junction. Zaf changes smoothly and so far all good.

Have you looked at Insignia? (Sure you probably have) suspect one of these in auto is about as solid as you would get for the money.

And what a pain in the arris, that is! I once owned a Vectra 2.5 V6 auto that did that....Stamp on the go pedal for a rapid depart and the first thing you notice is a slight delay then a ruddy great thump as 1st engages!
When i wanted a rapid go, i quite often use to hold the handbrake on and give it slight revs to stop it disengaging 

The auto Astra G that SWMBO once had did the same .... not the best of ideas.

[STEMO]

Mine doesn’t seem to do that, it’s away as soon as I lift my foot off the brake pedal, unless the hill hold is on.

[TheBoy]

The AR25 in TD issue is more to do with the box being marginal on its ratings for the torque output. The vast majority of failures were probably on chipped Omegas, although the box wasn't as long-lived on non-chipped TDs as the rest of the AR25/35 cars in the range.

I think is was a poor choice to combine the 2.5TD and the AR25 by GM (whether forced upon them or not).

I'm trying to remember if I killed the first AR25 before or after I chipped it, too long ago now. Definitely the short lived 2nd one was post chipping

[TheBoy]

The Auto box in the Zaf is traditional one, no silly clutch setup to make it like a manual or what ever DSG does.

It’s fine, unlike Omega it appears to disengage at lights when in D, so the drag is a lot less when waiting at junction. Zaf changes smoothly and so far all good.

Have you looked at Insignia? (Sure you probably have) suspect one of these in auto is about as solid as you would get for the money.

And what a pain in the arris, that is! I once owned a Vectra 2.5 V6 auto that did that....Stamp on the go pedal for a rapid depart and the first thing you notice is a slight delay then a ruddy great thump as 1st engages!
When i wanted a rapid go, i quite often use to hold the handbrake on and give it slight revs to stop it disengaging 

I concur, and it can't be healthy for the box.  If you don't like the drag (or want to hug trees), every single auto I've ever driven has a N setting.

[TheBoy]

ZF 8 speed auto fitted to my Jag

I feel ratio inadequate, with just a measly 6...

[Andy B]

ZF 8 speed auto fitted to my Jag

I feel ratio inadequate, with just a measly 6...

I look up to Dr Opti with his 8 but look down on you with your 6 

[TheBoy]

ZF 8 speed auto fitted to my Jag

I feel ratio inadequate, with just a measly 6...

I look up to Dr Opti with his 8 but look down on you with your 6 

I know my place

[henryd]

ZF 8 speed auto fitted to my Jag

I feel ratio inadequate, with just a measly 6...

Three would do with the torque you have,Vauxhall used to make do with just two on the old powerglide in Cresta's

[STEMO]

Even my poxy astra has six. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

ZF 8 speed auto fitted to my Jag

I feel ratio inadequate, with just a measly 6...

8th gear on my car works out at roughly 50 MPH for each 1000 RPM. About 1400 RPM at 70 MPH.

This is tall gearing for a petrol car probably to help economy and Co2 figures. Both 7th and 8th gear offer SFA in meaningful acceleration.

The USS Enterprise  probably uses shorter gearing.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Even my poxy astra has six. 

I believe Jeep has nine and Lexus has ten.......which is probably overkill

[BazaJT]

I believe there are quite a few cars either current or due out soon that have ten speed boxes,iirc the Lotus Carlton/Omega with it's six speed manual pulled 44mph per 1,000revs in top,so not so far off your Jag Opti.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I believe there are quite a few cars either current or due out soon that have ten speed boxes,iirc the Lotus Carlton/Omega with it's six speed manual pulled 44mph per 1,000revs in top,so not so far off your Jag Opti.

Yep...exactly right, Mr Baza.

 Sixth was more of an overdrive as the LC reached top speed (176 MPH) in 5th.

[Andy B]

ZF 8 speed auto fitted to my Jag

I feel ratio inadequate, with just a measly 6...

I look up to Dr Opti with his 8 but look down on you with your 6 

I know my place

 

[aaronjb]

ZF 8 speed auto fitted to my Jag

I feel ratio inadequate, with just a measly 6...

Three would do with the torque you have,Vauxhall used to make do with just two on the old powerglide in Cresta's

I saw a yank tank advertised recently with a two-speed powerglide  Given the size of engine though, I assume that's one gear for burnouts and one gear for everything else

[Sir Tigger KC]

20 years ago I drove around Australia in an old Ford Cortina (Yolanda!) with a 3 speed auto box!   

Unfortunately 2nd gear was AWOL. Which wasn't too much of a problem as Australia is mostly quite flat, so I used to boot it in 1st and then it'd slide into 3rd, chug a bit, then catch up with itself and off I'd go! 

Heading north out of Adelaide is quite hilly and I had to stick it in 1st and crawl up the steep hills, which was quite interesting with the Road Trains thundering past.