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Author Topic: Facelift ICE options  (Read 10748 times)

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Jimbob

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Facelift ICE options
« on: 20 July 2006, 12:47:16 »

With the varying fascia adaptors out there, varying colour stereos, varying size (double din), varying car interiors, it is not an easy decision how to best improve on factory fit audio.

So then, whoever has upgraded, lets have this thread dedicated to your solutions.

Please post the final picture of what you've acheived, along with the make / model of what you've used to get there.  Then we should have a nice reference thread so the next person may be able to see what they are looking for and be able to replicate it themselves without making expensive mistakes.

Martin_1962

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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #1 on: 20 July 2006, 13:14:05 »

Sony MDX5970 Head Unit, Connects2 DOPS004/5 (needs to be 005) display driver, Autoleads single DIN fascia adaptor, Sony CD changer with mp3 fascility.

To do, replace front speakers with Infinity 605CS and amplifiers. also to get Autoleads PC9 350 Traffic Master adaptor to fit
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #2 on: 20 July 2006, 19:18:45 »

I am currently having a b!tch of a job getting a double unit to fit.

DO NOT DO NOT go double din!!!!

Shove a nice Alpine unit in there, and get a Vibe Active Sub, I highly reccommend them. Extremely powerfull, Active Sub, has the Amp and Sub in one box.

See the Thread "My ICE Project so far...." - In general chat for pics

Oh btw if you know of a facia adpator that is for double din units for the omega, let me know ASAP.

Cause i am going to have to make one out of MDF
« Last Edit: 20 July 2006, 19:19:51 by tunnie »
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #3 on: 22 July 2006, 19:22:40 »

Oh, you mean an adaptor like this?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vauxhall-Corsa-Vectra-Omega-facia-SILVER-stereo-fascia_W0QQitemZ230010857512QQihZ013QQcategoryZ1498QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 ;)

As for upgrading the ICE in a facelift Omega? Hillper is THE man to speak to.

Done the whole lot, and a damn good job he has made of it. :)
« Last Edit: 22 July 2006, 19:23:56 by admin »
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #4 on: 22 July 2006, 19:35:12 »

tunnie needs an adapter that takes a double din stereo, not single din. The plastic surround he has fitted doesn't look too bad, just needs a bit of perfecting.

The setup certainly sounds good though :)
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #5 on: 23 July 2006, 16:31:18 »

Quote
tunnie needs an adapter that takes a double din stereo, not single din. The plastic surround he has fitted doesn't look too bad, just needs a bit of perfecting.

The setup certainly sounds good though :)

Thanks, no problems with the sound comming from the system now, that needs no futher mods.

Stuck my headunit on eBay with pictures i took before it went in. Only cost me £2.something to auction it, so if it goes for a fairly decent price i will sell it and go single din.

No-ware seams to sell an adaptor facia for double din units plenty for single, i have one! But not double  >:(
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #6 on: 04 August 2006, 08:35:50 »

I'll do a write up on my install as soon as I can.

Mine's very basic.  Simplicity is the key.  Omegas are ripe for fitting ICE as they are well soundproofed (especially the facelift) and have good internal proportions and well placed speakers.

I fitted replacement front speakers, head unit, four channel amp and subwoofer.

Sounds good to me!
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #7 on: 05 August 2006, 17:15:04 »

Is it only me then who thinks the facelift standard kit is superb quality?

 I've 'only' got the CDR 2005 single slot CD player in mine and im very very impressed with both the sound quality and clarity, in particular the separation of the various frequencies...and ive been used to Sony, Pioneer & Kenwood kit before this.
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #8 on: 05 August 2006, 17:18:41 »

My non-bose prefacelift CCR600 is great most of the time. Its only at high volume levels that it doesn't have the low frequency response...
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #9 on: 05 August 2006, 18:44:01 »

i have the CDR2006 witht he 4 disc multiplayer and bose speakers....

I am not changing a thing, the sound quality is excellent, to add or change anything may mean the dynamics of it change, and i don't want that to happen.

The only thing i have to do is get my ipod to work with it
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #10 on: 05 August 2006, 20:22:23 »

The standard kit is fine, it's just like The Boy said, it can't deliver the power and depth of bass and sub bass that is required for exciting listening.  

A really good compromise is to fit a sub only, to attempt get back those lost bass frequencies and give a bit more oomph to the whole system.  

If you could hear how different your standard setup can be with a good quality sub, you'll want one!
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #11 on: 06 August 2006, 09:52:34 »

Quote
The standard kit is fine, it's just like The Boy said, it can't deliver the power and depth of bass and sub bass that is required for exciting listening.  

A really good compromise is to fit a sub only, to attempt get back those lost bass frequencies and give a bit more oomph to the whole system.  

If you could hear how different your standard setup can be with a good quality sub, you'll want one!

Fair point, however in order to add the sub would require preouts on the stereo and the standard vaux stuff doesnt have that.

I have a sub box here with 2x12'' subs and an alpine V12 amp, i know that this does make a big difference, but there is no way of hooking it up to the CDC2006
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #12 on: 06 August 2006, 10:28:05 »

I was under the impression that the outputs from the head unit to the Bose amp (under the parcel shelf) were at line level, even though they use the speaker wires - so surely it would be possible to join onto the Bose amp inputs and feed that into the sub's amp?

I remember when I asked a question about the amp a few months ago elsewhere, Mark confirmed that the outputs are line level - ie, 0.7V not 2 or 4V that most head units seem to use as pre-out ... so you might need to up the gain on the sub's amp a bit ...
« Last Edit: 06 August 2006, 10:32:19 by sounds2k »
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #13 on: 06 August 2006, 15:15:13 »

ohhh, i had completely forgot about the amp on the bose set up, might have to have a look at setting up the subs and Alpine
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #14 on: 06 August 2006, 15:47:13 »

Don't waste that nice amp!

It's worth a try.  

You could always use a level converter from the speaker wires?  (V12 doesn't have speaker level inputs as I recal?)
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #15 on: 07 August 2006, 21:17:35 »

shouldn't need a converter. The bose system effectively has two "speaker" wiring looms. The head unit "speaker" wires from the head unit are driven at line voltage level, routed to the bose amp on the parcel shelf - which then outputs to the actual speakers (and bass drivers on the parcel shelf). In theory it should be possible to tap into the head-unit (ie, line level outputs) before they connect to the bose amp ... ???
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #16 on: 09 August 2006, 14:43:31 »

but the Alpine amp doesn't have speaker in connetors, only RCA's
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #17 on: 09 August 2006, 23:53:31 »

Quote
but the Alpine amp doesn't have speaker in connetors, only RCA's
... a trip to maplin's and some soldering would be required ... just get a phono lead, cut it in the middle and solder onto the bose amp's wiring loom ... should be fairly straight forward?
« Last Edit: 09 August 2006, 23:54:43 by sounds2k »
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #18 on: 11 August 2006, 16:16:17 »

my stereo knowledge is a bit lacking so please excuse me if i sound like an muppet....

i understand the bit about splicing the wires and the phono leads, if i wanted to run the subs in adiidition to the current set up could i still do that in the way that was described?

Also the amp has a 'remote' connector, i know what it's for but does the bose amp have one as well i can splice from

And in addition i am going to need to run a power lead from the battery, does anyone know how much cable i am going to need and what ampage fuse to get,( i will be running 8 guage wire)

TIA
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #19 on: 11 August 2006, 19:21:57 »

in the absence of someone with more knowledge -  haven't actually tried this yet!

hopefully the sub will have a gain control so you can adjust its' volume relative to the remaining speakers, in addition it'd also need to have a low-pass filter so that it only "hears" the bass part of the signal, but again I'd have thought this would be part of the sub's amplifier anyway. I'd expect the "remote" connector is a remote power switch-on signal which allows the amp to be switched on and off with the head unit. Basically although you connect big fat power cables to the amp, they should only be passing significant current when a voltage is present on the "remote" lead. Most after-market head units have this, not sure about the factory fit one though - there is a powered antenna output (see pics of the connector on my NCDC2013 here) - however I have a nasty feeling that on some radios this is only live when the radio is selected - so if you switch to the CD player the voltage on the antenna power lead disappears?

You'll need to check the instructions that came with the amp for the correct fuse rating, it may also give recommendations on the correct gauge wire to use too.
« Last Edit: 11 August 2006, 19:24:56 by sounds2k »
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #20 on: 11 August 2006, 20:48:17 »

The rating of the fuse depends on the cable thickness.  The fuse protects the cable.

The cable thickness is related to the power consumption of the amp.  8 Gauge will do nicely.  Use a 50 or 60 Amp fuse.

There are two routes you can take with the power cable.

From the battery, into the cabin filter 'void' via the loom grommet and through the bulkhead via the second loom grommet.  It will appear in the drivers footwell above the cardboard shelf thing.
It can then be run down the side of the car under the sill cover and up into the boot.
This will take about 5 metres.

The second route applies to auto facelifts.  From the battery, across the engine bay under the scuttle edge and through the blanking grommet where the throttle cable used to go.  Carefully threaded over the pedal mountings and down the car under the sill as before.
This will take about 6m, but it is much easier.

Tunnie was going to use this route until he discovered that despite having a facelift (the car I mean), his throttle cable hole was being used by a cable of some sort.  His is a manual.

You can run a sub independantly.

The amp should have a 'Low pass' filter, which should be selected.

The amp will have a gain control to allow you to balance the sub to the speakers.

I doubt if the Bose has an external 'remote' wire.  Any ignition switched feed will do.  (They'll be one feeding the radio), but put a small (1amp) fuse in line as close to the source as poss.

Mount the amp on some MDF and fix it securely to the car.

What model is it by the way?  If it's small enough, it may fit in the cubby hole.



« Last Edit: 12 August 2006, 02:35:22 by Hillper »
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #21 on: 11 August 2006, 21:10:56 »

well if i can't follow that then i must be a muppet, simple and easy to follow, cheers chaps

its an MRV-F407, i doubt it will fit in the cubby hole, currently it is attached to the back of the sub box, it has a low and high pass filter as well as gain control

it is stood on its end currently, here are some pics



« Last Edit: 11 August 2006, 21:12:35 by jay_w »
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #22 on: 11 August 2006, 21:50:55 »

An Alpine MRV-F407 driving a pair of subs?  :-/

Wonderful wonderful amp, but not what I would use for a pair of subs.
I used to have one to drive the mids and tweeters and I loved it.



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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #23 on: 11 August 2006, 22:00:46 »

hmmmm i take it the amp is not really ideal for the subs then?

The problem i an see is mounting something like that amp without losing a lot of boot space, it's a classic case of want good sound but use the boot a lot.

Friend suggested bolting it to the parcel shelf, but then the heat is sinking right back into the amp and will in time damage the PCB.
Plus running all the cabling to the doors would be a nightmare.....

does the Bose amp deal with all the speakers or just the back ones?
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #24 on: 11 August 2006, 22:58:33 »

The amp's fine for the subs.  I think Laidback just meant it's a shame to use it for going thump, thump, thump!  He had a soft spot for his!

The amp can't be mounted upside down as you say.  It will probably overheat.

The Bose speakers are all driven.  I believe the earlier Philips system just drove the rear 'subs'.
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #25 on: 11 August 2006, 22:59:07 »

Quote
... does the Bose amp deal with all the speakers or just the back ones?
all of 'em ... it had been ripped out on my old miggy, I traced the wiring to where the amp should have been and there were feeds and returns for front and rear speakers - each feed connected to its' respective return.
« Last Edit: 11 August 2006, 22:59:57 by sounds2k »
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #26 on: 13 August 2006, 13:18:01 »

ok that's really cool, got some ideas now....

I have been given a suitable amp for the subs by a friend, so the alpine will replace the bose amp and the other amp drive the subs.

I am going to put the alpine amp where the bose was, now i know that the shelf is a bit smaller than the amp, the plan is to cut the side that is facing the seats, that way when you are looking in the boot it won't look too apparent, will there be enough of a gap there to keep the amp cool?

From there the speakers will be looked at, i can see this being a long process that has lots of questions
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #27 on: 13 August 2006, 15:06:10 »

The normal way to mount an amp is either horizontally with the fins upwards or vertical with the direction of the fins vertical.  The second method is supposed to be more efficient.

How hot the amp gets will depend on how hard you drive it.  So the size of the air gap around it will depend on this.  But no less than about 1" if possible.

It's not the simplest of plans, so take it step by step and plan carefully and you won't go wrong.  Just prepare for some hassle and a few cuts and bruises!

What's the other amp?  

Remember, you're running 8 gauge cable.  That'll allow about 450Wrms total amp power over 5 metres.

Edit.  And keep asking questions!  ;)
« Last Edit: 13 August 2006, 15:06:57 by Hillper »
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #28 on: 13 August 2006, 17:43:59 »

Quote
The normal way to mount an amp is either horizontally with the fins upwards or vertical with the direction of the fins vertical.  The second method is supposed to be more efficient.

How hot the amp gets will depend on how hard you drive it.  So the size of the air gap around it will depend on this.  But no less than about 1" if possible.

It's not the simplest of plans, so take it step by step and plan carefully and you won't go wrong.  Just prepare for some hassle and a few cuts and bruises!

What's the other amp?  

Remember, you're running 8 gauge cable.  That'll allow about 450Wrms total amp power over 5 metres.

Edit.  And keep asking questions!  ;)

Cheers for the advice there.

Looking at the propsed mounting place and the size of the amp, i doubt i am going to be able to get away with putting the Alpine where the bose amp sat, although i don't run a lot of volume, i may have another look at the cubby hole where you mounted yours, all i would have to do then is re reoute the speaker cables.
the Bose amp does look like it has a remote lead, looking at the loom that goes to the amp i have found 4 black sleeved wires (each one with two wires in) 8 wires (coloured in pairs with the second wire having a tracer) a red, brown and a red/white cable, the red/white being of a smaller guage that the rest of them.
I am going to test the red/white to see if it is powers up only when the stereo powers up, if so i could be in business.

The other amp hasn't arrived yet, i will have to have a look at it, the plan was to run both of the amps from the 8 guage cable, i doubt collectively i am running anywhere near 450W and the puprose of this to make a start on improving the quality of sound not to have big volume.

The main fuse is placed in the fusebox next to the battery, i like to keep things subtle and simple, i have been taking pics so i will post them up once finished
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #29 on: 14 August 2006, 23:32:48 »

Saw the guides.

Very good Jay!  I particularly liked the tip about removing the passenger air vent to get at the bulkhead. Great tip.

Now when you have the other amp in, you'll need to set the filters on the door speaker amp to 'Hi pass' so they only get mid and high frequencies and the filters on the sub speaker amp to 'Lo pass' so they only get bass and sub bass.
This way, the doors will rattle a lot less, the door speakers will survive and you can get more output from them if they're just handling the mid and high frequencies.  The subs will have more than enough output to fill the car.

Keep up the good work.
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #30 on: 17 August 2006, 19:14:42 »

thanks for the advice there.

i am now in the process of getting the subs and amp into the back of the car, not a difficult task, but i have one question.

Can i use the current 8 guage to run both of the amps? i thought i saw a few weeks ago a piece of equipment that would allow one wire in and two out, almost like a splitter or should i run a seperate power feed for the Sub amp.

Total for both of the amps only comes to approx 250 watts, and even then i am most likely being generous, the Alpine if i remember is 45/50 watts RMS and the Sub amp is rated at 500 max (not RMS)



cheers for you help so far
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #31 on: 20 August 2006, 10:29:45 »

8 gauge should be fine.

Use a distribution block like this.


http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=1477&cadid=4f2691665ab38b36cb9015ff5675b9d5

One 8 gauge input and two, eight gauge outputs.
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #32 on: 20 August 2006, 16:41:56 »

it all fitted, wired up and kicking......literally as well

I think it now needs to be set up correctly regarding the gain and setting for the HPF and LPF, this is the part i am flying blind.
I understand what the LPF and HPF do, how do i establish what frequency to set them to, and the same for the gain control, how do i know when that is set correctly

One thing i noticed when the volume is turned up to a certain point the sound stops and it screeches, in order to stop it you have to switch off the stereo and start again
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #33 on: 23 August 2006, 20:24:10 »

Good job!

To set the gains, you have to start at the headunit and work along the signal path.

The idea is to turn up the headunit until it starts to distort, then turn it down slightly to produce a distortion free input to the amps.  About 3/4 on the volume knob.

Then you slowly increase the gain on each amp in turn until the required output is found for each, making sure not to overdo it and produce distortion.  The two amps should be done separately.

But first, turn the gains on the amps down to about 1/3 or lower.  Set the sub amp filters to low pass (any frequency around 80Hz).  Set the speaker amp filters to around the same.  

With headunit tone controls flat, and the sub out level at 1/2 (can you control that?), turn up the headunit volume until you can just hear the speakers distorting.  

It's all a matter of trial and error and finding the right balance.

Having two amps complicates things and if there are signal processors in the path, it gets even worse!

It sounds like you're overdriving the amp to make it cut out.  Start again with the gains down and work up.  It'll take quite a lot of experimentation to get it right.

The filter settings are trial and error too.  As lond as the sub is low passed and the speakers high passed, you'll be fine.


Happy fiddling!


Edit.  The pro's do it with an oscilliscope!  More neighbour freindly.
« Last Edit: 23 August 2006, 20:26:04 by Hillper »
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Re: Facelift ICE options
« Reply #34 on: 24 August 2006, 21:44:09 »

cheers for the info here........

i have the sub controls you are referring to, so it should be fairly straightforward

fortunatly i go out on Dartmoor to do the set up, no nieghbours and the sheep get to hear something different ;D
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