Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Varche]

In another thread I posted about a German Zeppelin over Scarborough.

Following your comment about my dad needing to be over a hundred (he is actually only nearly 92) to have seen one I did some googling and drew a blank. A real blank.

Anyway I talk with my dad each Sunday and brought the subject up. These are his recollections and I have no doubt whatsover that they are true and accurate.

It wasn't a recycled WW1 Zeppelin but a brand new shiny one. It was "Jet White" in colour with black lettering G Z and a black swastika on the tail. He was walking down the main street and it appeared over St Nicholas St.   Scarborough is on quite a steep hill. There were three people in the cabin (not a gondola), One taking photos. My dad waved but was disappointed that they didn't wave back. He watched it over the harbour before it went around the castle head and into the North Bay. It was flying at castle head height so quite low.

Now the best bit is the date. It was the first Monday after Easter the next day, Tuesday he had to go back to school. Year 1939. About four months before war broke out.

His supposition has always been that they were mapping the coast and radio defences. The radio defences fits in with my research yesterday but that apparently was only the South Coast using ww1 zeppelins perhaps.

In a separate story he also tells about a visiting schoolboy football team from Germany (same year) that came to Scarborough. They were totally humourless and their only mission was to beat ze English which they did never smiling once.   

[Bigron]

Interesting. How hostile would we have been towards the germans at that time? Clearly they were allowed into our air space, even if they didn't wave back!

Ron.

[Shackeng]

May be a pic in this archive?
http://www.hitlersukpictures.co.uk/index.php?page=default-extensions

[Varche]

Interesting article Shackeng

[Lizzie Zoom]

In another thread I posted about a German Zeppelin over Scarborough.

Following your comment about my dad needing to be over a hundred (he is actually only nearly 92) to have seen one I did some googling and drew a blank. A real blank.

Anyway I talk with my dad each Sunday and brought the subject up. These are his recollections and I have no doubt whatsover that they are true and accurate.

It wasn't a recycled WW1 Zeppelin but a brand new shiny one. It was "Jet White" in colour with black lettering G Z and a black swastika on the tail. He was walking down the main street and it appeared over St Nicholas St.   Scarborough is on quite a steep hill. There were three people in the cabin (not a gondola), One taking photos. My dad waved but was disappointed that they didn't wave back. He watched it over the harbour before it went around the castle head and into the North Bay. It was flying at castle head height so quite low.

Now the best bit is the date. It was the first Monday after Easter the next day, Tuesday he had to go back to school. Year 1939. About four months before war broke out.

His supposition has always been that they were mapping the coast and radio defences. The radio defences fits in with my research yesterday but that apparently was only the South Coast using ww1 zeppelins perhaps.

In a separate story he also tells about a visiting schoolboy football team from Germany (same year) that came to Scarborough. They were totally humourless and their only mission was to beat ze English which they did never smiling once.

Ah, that is very interesting Varche.

Yes the Nazis used Zeppelins, that is those manufactured by the German Zeppelin company such as the Hindenburg, for propaganda purposes.   They indeed had large Swastika "flags" painted on their tail fins to promote the worth of the new Germany under Hitler, predicting that the airship was still a future mode of transport.  The LZ129 Hindenburg disaster in 1937 put an end to that hope, and quickly the airships were decommissioned.  This included the decommissioning of the equally famous LZ127 Graf Zeppelin.  They were scrapped in 1940 as it became all very clear that they had no future in the military or civilian role. The Zeppelin your father saw in 1939 must have been one of the last to fly over Britain, as in the September the RAF would have made short work of any still in the air! I do believe though that the German registration number your dad saw was not "GZ", but "LZ" as all the Zeppelins displayed this;)

A wonderful primary eye witness account by your father, which all historians love! He should ensure his account is written down:-*

PS, My late father also used to recall seeing the ZZ129 Hindenburg over Kent in about 1936 and said it was a wonderful sight

[Viral_Jim]

It's interesting how the Germans just won't seem to let the idea of zeppelins go. Some 60years post-WW2 my father worked on the CargoLifter project, based 60km outside Berlin, the project was for long distance, heavy air transport.

Their "small" initial offering was the CL160, 260m long it was designed for a 160tonne payload and 10,000km range. Also designed to land and take off in weather conditions where a regular aircraft could not. Sadly the project went insolvent before one ever made it to production. Their later planned model was well in excess of 400m in length  .

Some info here for interest.
http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/cargolifter/

Sadly, the enormous hanger where they were to be built is now a water park 
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/twistedsifter.com/2015/06/giant-waterpark-inside-an-old-german-airship-hangar/amp/

[Varche]

My dad has been a regular contributor over the years to the Scarborough Evening News paper over various subjects. When we discussed this earlier he suggested he document the event and submit it. That normally gets other people contributing. Wont be many to contibute to that story but you never know.

I will ask him about the initials tomorrow.

[Lizzie Zoom]

It's interesting how the Germans just won't seem to let the idea of zeppelins go. Some 60years post-WW2 my father worked on the CargoLifter project, based 60km outside Berlin, the project was for long distance, heavy air transport.

Their "small" initial offering was the CL160, 260m long it was designed for a 160tonne payload and 10,000km range. Also designed to land and take off in weather conditions where a regular aircraft could not. Sadly the project went insolvent before one ever made it to production. Their later planned model was well in excess of 400m in length  .

Some info here for interest.
http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/cargolifter/

Sadly, the enormous hanger where they were to be built is now a water park 
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/twistedsifter.com/2015/06/giant-waterpark-inside-an-old-german-airship-hangar/amp/

Yes, the main handicap for the rigid airship for purely commercial purposes is that they are slow and I have yet to see any detail about any of them that shows they could carry very heavy bulk loads(??)

Now for pleasure flights, or long distance luxury cruises, as indeed carried out by the likes of the Hidenburg and Graf Zeppelin, then perhaps there is a market aimed at the wealthy. They would have to be faster than the fore mentioned vessels that reached a maximum 84mph!

No, I think as romantic as they appear to be, especially to me after my fathers description, and my later research, they perhaps can only belong in the past, except the small ones used for advertising and camera work

[Varche]

Flight 10 LZ130?

[Lizzie Zoom]

Flight 10 LZ130?

LZ130 was called Graf Zeppelin II and was built for civilian purposes.  It had it's first flight on 14th September 1939.  Records show that she flew on 30 occasions, mainly on flight tests, but was also used (by the military) for electronic warfare and radio interception over the English coast and Polish/German border.  Her last flight was on the 20 August 1939, 11 days before the invasion of Poland and just two weeks before Britain and France declared war on Germany.  She was broken up in 1940  under the orders of Hermann Göring, who, like everyone in the military knew the airship was not going to be of any use in modern warfare.

This could well have been the Zeppelin your father saw Varche

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Flight 10 LZ130?

LZ130 was called Graf Zeppelin II and was built for civilian purposes.  It had it's first flight on 14th September 1939.  Records show that she flew on 30 occasions, mainly on flight tests, but was also used (by the military) for electronic warfare and radio interception over the English coast and Polish/German border. Her last flight was on the 20 August 1939, 11 days before the invasion of Poland and just two weeks before Britain and France declared war on Germany.  She was broken up in 1940  under the orders of Hermann Göring, who, like everyone in the military knew the airship was not going to be of any use in modern warfare.

This could well have been the Zeppelin your father saw Varche

Had the Germans cracked 'time travel' Lizzie?

Was LZ130 short for Lizzie Zoom 130?

[Lizzie Zoom]

Flight 10 LZ130?

LZ130 was called Graf Zeppelin II and was built for civilian purposes.  It had it's first flight on 14th September 1939.  Records show that she flew on 30 occasions, mainly on flight tests, but was also used (by the military) for electronic warfare and radio interception over the English coast and Polish/German border. Her last flight was on the 20 August 1939, 11 days before the invasion of Poland and just two weeks before Britain and France declared war on Germany.  She was broken up in 1940  under the orders of Hermann Göring, who, like everyone in the military knew the airship was not going to be of any use in modern warfare.

This could well have been the Zeppelin your father saw Varche

Had the Germans cracked 'time travel' Lizzie?

There is no proof of that Opti. But well spotted; I did mean 14th September 1938!!

Nor, as a point of interest, were they about to master the final act of making a viable nuclear weapon (according to Dr. Tom Hennessy at Canterbury Christ Church University) although I tried to argue that, but he was academically certain about it!

[Rods2]

Now Lizzie has perfected time travel using her Omega, she can pop back to WWII and check on Hitler's nuclear progress while the guards are distracted by the car from the future she is driving.

She could then go to 2002 and flog her Omega for more than 50p, but wouldn't then be able to gat back to 2017.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Now Lizzie has perfected time travel using her Omega, she can pop back to WWII and check on Hitler's nuclear progress while the guards are distracted by the car from the future she is driving.

She could then go to 2002 and flog her Omega for more than 50p, but wouldn't then be able to gat back to 2017.

    If I only could!!

[Bigron]

As Cher sang, "If I could turn back time"....
I'd love to go back to my teenage years, knowing what I now know about women (which ain't a lot, honestly gents!) and putting it to good advantage. 

Ron.

[Lizzie Zoom]

As Cher sang, "If I could turn back time"....
I'd love to go back to my teenage years, knowing what I now know about women (which ain't a lot, honestly gents!) and putting it to good advantage. 

Ron.

If I could go back Ron I would ask my grandparents, parents, great uncle,and great aunt a lot more questions about their history, writing it all down.  As youngster do, I sat and listened to many recollections of their lives, but failed to take it all in and ask the additional questions beyond those that I did due to now obvious gaps in my knowledge! 

[Bigron]

Totally agree, Lizzie. My paternal grandfather was German, and I didn't realise it at the time, since the family kept it quiet (post-war discretion) and, like you, I was too young to question adults; we didn't, back then, did we?

Ron.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I think Lizzie would go back to something like 1958.

Supermac as PM, and a nice black Humber Imperial for her to drive.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Totally agree, Lizzie. My paternal grandfather was German, and I didn't realise it at the time, since the family kept it quiet (post-war discretion) and, like you, I was too young to question adults; we didn't, back then, did we?

Ron.

No, we didn't Ron.  We did not know what to ask I suppose, although once my age moved into double digits. I started to, and found out a great deal, but still nowhere near enough of what would been available to me.  Fortunately my father was not only in the Royal Navy from 1940 to 1966, but he loved modern military history, reading many books on the subject, which meant we also gained much knowledge and viewpoint  on the subject.

As for you grandfather being German and that not being discussed; back in the 1960's I met a German women who's father had been a Nazi fighting in the war.  She would make it clear that she never would understand how her parents generation let it all happen; she was angry and very embarrassed by it.  My mother had the same type of experience with a German woman who used to get very upset recalling what had happened in Germany, and apparently just asked the question repeatedly, "How could they [her parents] allow such a thing; why did they not stop it?!"

The truth is, we know, that to stand up to the level of power and evil the Nazi's had reached by 1939 was near suicidal. Nothing would have stopped the Nazis once Hitler gained power at 1300 on the 30th January 1933.  Democracy was lost.

[Bigron]

"Democracy was lost" - just like Corbyn wants to achieve?

Ron.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I think Lizzie would go back to something like 1958.

Supermac as PM, and a nice black Humber Imperial for her to drive.

Not 1958, although I loved the Humber's.  No, 21st October 1805 at 1130, just before Nelson's fleet started to cross the Spanish and French combined fleet at Trafalgar, watching from a safe vantage point, would do me very nicely.  To see HMS Victory heading the forward line with HMS Temeraire and HMS Neptune at it's head, eventually coming aft of the French Flagship Bucentaure and Victory opening up a full broadside into the Bucentaure's stern, destroying the Grand Cabin and sending heavy fire from stern to fore smashing everything in the way, including more than 400 French sailors.  Terrible carnage, but from an historical point of view a moment in time that was the start of a change in the fortunes of Great Britain.  What an experience that would be!

[Lizzie Zoom]

"Democracy was lost" - just like Corbyn wants to achieve?

Ron.

From what I see Corbyn's vision is not far off from National Socialism, without the military.

[Bigron]

Yerse; he would have the military too, if given the chance.

Ron.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I think Lizzie would go back to something like 1958.

Supermac as PM, and a nice black Humber Imperial for her to drive.

Not 1958, although I loved the Humber's.  No, 21st October 1805 at 1130, just before Nelson's fleet started to cross the Spanish and French combined fleet at Trafalgar, watching from a safe vantage point, would do me very nicely.  To see HMS Victory heading the forward line with HMS Temeraire and HMS Neptune at it's head, eventually coming aft of the French Flagship Bucentaure and Victory opening up a full broadside into the Bucentaure's stern, destroying the Grand Cabin and sending heavy fire from stern to fore smashing everything in the way, including more than 400 French sailors.  Terrible carnage, but from an historical point of view a moment in time that was the start of a change in the fortunes of Great Britain.  What an experience that would be!

I had you down as more of a 1066 girl.

Now that really changed history.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I think Lizzie would go back to something like 1958.

Supermac as PM, and a nice black Humber Imperial for her to drive.

Not 1958, although I loved the Humber's.  No, 21st October 1805 at 1130, just before Nelson's fleet started to cross the Spanish and French combined fleet at Trafalgar, watching from a safe vantage point, would do me very nicely.  To see HMS Victory heading the forward line with HMS Temeraire and HMS Neptune at it's head, eventually coming aft of the French Flagship Bucentaure and Victory opening up a full broadside into the Bucentaure's stern, destroying the Grand Cabin and sending heavy fire from stern to fore smashing everything in the way, including more than 400 French sailors.  Terrible carnage, but from an historical point of view a moment in time that was the start of a change in the fortunes of Great Britain.  What an experience that would be!

I had you down as more of a 1066 girl.

Now that really changed history.

As do most events throughout history Opti

No, Trafalgar was a major sea battle that really established the power of the Royal Navy, so appeals particularly to me

Besides, I would sooner watch brave Jack Tars at work than smelly Saxons and Normans fighting it out

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

There are many points in time I wish I could travel back to, but if I had to pick just one it would be 11pm on the 12/10/76.
It was a life changing moment, just before I reached the grand old age of 17.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

There are many points in time I wish I could travel back to, but if I had to pick just one it would be 11pm on the 12/10/76.
It was a life changing moment, just before I reached the grand old age of 17.

End away for the first time?

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I think Lizzie would go back to something like 1958.

Supermac as PM, and a nice black Humber Imperial for her to drive.

Not 1958, although I loved the Humber's.  No, 21st October 1805 at 1130, just before Nelson's fleet started to cross the Spanish and French combined fleet at Trafalgar, watching from a safe vantage point, would do me very nicely.  To see HMS Victory heading the forward line with HMS Temeraire and HMS Neptune at it's head, eventually coming aft of the French Flagship Bucentaure and Victory opening up a full broadside into the Bucentaure's stern, destroying the Grand Cabin and sending heavy fire from stern to fore smashing everything in the way, including more than 400 French sailors.  Terrible carnage, but from an historical point of view a moment in time that was the start of a change in the fortunes of Great Britain.  What an experience that would be!

I had you down as more of a 1066 girl.

Now that really changed history.

As do most events throughout history Opti

No, Trafalgar was a major sea battle that really established the power of the Royal Navy, so appeals particularly to me

Besides, I would sooner watch brave Jack Tars at work than smelly Saxons and Normans fighting it out

I doubt the men on HMS Victory were particularly fragrant.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

There are many points in time I wish I could travel back to, but if I had to pick just one it would be 11pm on the 12/10/76.
It was a life changing moment, just before I reached the grand old age of 17.

End away for the first time?

Not quite. I was with a girl though and my mate. She said "you should ride his bike home, hes so pissed he can hardly stand"
I replied "you worry too much. We,ll be fine". Famous last words - almost.  We got less than a mile down the road before the inevitable happened.

[BazaJT]

Apart from a very brief[one month and three new gearboxes]dalliance with a VdP 3 litre my dad always drove Super Snipes from the late '50s until '67 when production ended,they were fine cars indeed,the Imperial was a slightly posher version of the same car.I'd agree with Lizzie and go for Trafalgar.Last of the great fleet battles under sail-although there were other smaller scale battles after that.Collingwood breaking the combined fleets line first in Royal Sovereign.The last signal nelson caused to be hoisted aboard Victory[and was still flying until her masts came down being "Engage the enemy more closely"This whilst a lot of the ships were so close that the lower gunports could not be opened if shut nor closed if open.Must have been a magnificent if gruesome sight.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Apart from a very brief[one month and three new gearboxes]dalliance with a VdP 3 litre my dad always drove Super Snipes from the late '50s until '67 when production ended,they were fine cars indeed,the Imperial was a slightly posher version of the same car.I'd agree with Lizzie and go for Trafalgar.Last of the great fleet battles under sail-although there were other smaller scale battles after that.Collingwood breaking the combined fleets line first in Royal Sovereign.The last signal nelson caused to be hoisted aboard Victory[and was still flying until her masts came down being "Engage the enemy more closely"This whilst a lot of the ships were so close that the lower gunports could not be opened if shut nor closed if open.Must have been a magnificent if gruesome sight.

Vice Admiral Lord Collingwood took HMS Royal Soveriegn into the rear of the combined fleet line about (eye witness and official ship logs vary on this) 20 minutes before Nelson launched his attack with the heavy weights of his fleet on the head part of the Spanish and French line as that is where the French and Spanish Flagships were together. Indeed Nelson aimed to go to the aft of the latter, the Santissima Trindad, a 140 gun monster, but the combined fleet closed up at that point and instead went aft of the next in line, the Bucentaura, just 80 guns (compared to the Victory's 100).

What a sight indeed as the Royal Navy ship opened up there full broadsides as they crossed through the line!

[Shackeng]

In that link I posted of Hitlers pictures, there is one of a mechanic loading a camera on an A/C during WW11. It says underneath that he later accompanied the King as his drummer on his German tour!

[Lizzie Zoom]

In that link I posted of Hitlers pictures, there is one of a mechanic loading a camera on an A/C during WW11. It says underneath that he later accompanied the King as his drummer on his German tour!

Yes, not all Germans were committed Nazis, just young men fighting for God, Furher and Country.  As he became Elvis's drummer (in the USA??) I wonder if his photographic skills were used by the Americans?

[ronnyd]

Apart from a very brief[one month and three new gearboxes]dalliance with a VdP 3 litre my dad always drove Super Snipes from the late '50s until '67 when production ended,they were fine cars indeed,the Imperial was a slightly posher version of the same car.I'd agree with Lizzie and go for Trafalgar.Last of the great fleet battles under sail-although there were other smaller scale battles after that.Collingwood breaking the combined fleets line first in Royal Sovereign.The last signal nelson caused to be hoisted aboard Victory[and was still flying until her masts came down being "Engage the enemy more closely"This whilst a lot of the ships were so close that the lower gunports could not be opened if shut nor closed if open.Must have been a magnificent if gruesome sight.

Vice Admiral Lord Collingwood took HMS Royal Soveriegn into the rear of the combined fleet line about (eye witness and official ship logs vary on this) 20 minutes before Nelson launched his attack with the heavy weights of his fleet on the head part of the Spanish and French line as that is where the French and Spanish Flagships were together. Indeed Nelson aimed to go to the aft of the latter, the Santissima Trindad, a 140 gun monster, but the combined fleet closed up at that point and instead went aft of the next in line, the Bucentaura, just 80 guns (compared to the Victory's 100).

What a sight indeed as the Royal Navy ship opened up there full broadsides as they crossed through the line!

Digressing slightly, was walking along the coast at Tynemouth when visiting my lad a few weeks ago and saw a massive statue to Collingwood on the headland overlooking the Tyne. Very impressive.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Apart from a very brief[one month and three new gearboxes]dalliance with a VdP 3 litre my dad always drove Super Snipes from the late '50s until '67 when production ended,they were fine cars indeed,the Imperial was a slightly posher version of the same car.I'd agree with Lizzie and go for Trafalgar.Last of the great fleet battles under sail-although there were other smaller scale battles after that.Collingwood breaking the combined fleets line first in Royal Sovereign.The last signal nelson caused to be hoisted aboard Victory[and was still flying until her masts came down being "Engage the enemy more closely"This whilst a lot of the ships were so close that the lower gunports could not be opened if shut nor closed if open.Must have been a magnificent if gruesome sight.

Vice Admiral Lord Collingwood took HMS Royal Soveriegn into the rear of the combined fleet line about (eye witness and official ship logs vary on this) 20 minutes before Nelson launched his attack with the heavy weights of his fleet on the head part of the Spanish and French line as that is where the French and Spanish Flagships were together. Indeed Nelson aimed to go to the aft of the latter, the Santissima Trindad, a 140 gun monster, but the combined fleet closed up at that point and instead went aft of the next in line, the Bucentaura, just 80 guns (compared to the Victory's 100).

What a sight indeed as the Royal Navy ship opened up there full broadsides as they crossed through the line!

Digressing slightly, was walking along the coast at Tynemouth when visiting my lad a few weeks ago and saw a massive statue to Collingwood on the headland overlooking the Tyne. Very impressive.

Yes, both him and Nelson lived in areas bordering the North Sea, namely Newcastle Upon Tyne and Burnham Thorpe, Norfolk respectively.