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Author Topic: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?  (Read 3712 times)

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Johnny English

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #15 on: 05 March 2014, 15:55:49 »

And what if Russia is right in this situation? I mean, whether occurred these events if Ukrainian Rada behaved a bit more friendly with foreign language minorities? If kept the law, which guaranteed free language using for all the minorities of Ukraine? Slovakian, Romanian, Hungarian, Russian and so on...

1If you think the Russians are right? Then so was the invasion of Hungary and Czechoslovakia in the 1950's / 1960's as the reasons are largely the same? The people want independence from the bullying Russian bear!

The Ukrainian parliament have only repealed a hated law passed by Yanukovych making Russian and Ukrainian both official languages. To do so at this time was a mistake in my view. The Ukrainians who speak Russian will carry on doing so as the majority of them are actually Ukrainian, who speak Russian for historical reasons, where it was the official language of the Soviet Union. This applies across families in different parts of the Ukraine including my extended one. Most Ukrainians apart from those in the very east and Crimea speak both languages. Russian will stay as the second language of the Ukraine. 2The languages are very close, with Ukrainian classed as old Russian.

1 There were no minority-related acts by legislation anywhere so the situation is certainly not the same.

2 Indeed they are very close but reversely if I know well, as the slavic nations and theirs language came from the territory of present Russia so the old Russian can not be other than the original Russian. I've got quite close relationships in the Hungarian community in Ukraine and often hear complaining teachers about they have to teach never existed historical events in point of history of Ukraine , even they had to get children in the elementary write about a day of the Ukrainian cave man... :-\ Forgot to mention that Ukrainian ultra-nationalist's best topic is: who had been here first?  :-\  I just want to say it is actually a real threaten in Ukraine. Unfortunately. :(
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Rods2

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #16 on: 05 March 2014, 16:25:18 »

And what if Russia is right in this situation? I mean, whether occurred these events if Ukrainian Rada behaved a bit more friendly with foreign language minorities? If kept the law, which guaranteed free language using for all the minorities of Ukraine? Slovakian, Romanian, Hungarian, Russian and so on...

If you think the Russians are right? Then so was the invasion of Hungary and Czechoslovakia in the 1950's / 1960's as the reasons are largely the same? The people want independence from the bullying Russian bear!

The Ukrainian parliament have only repealed a hated law passed by Yanukovych making Russian and Ukrainian both official languages. To do so at this time was a mistake in my view. The Ukrainians who speak Russian will carry on doing so as the majority of them are actually Ukrainian, who speak Russian for historical reasons, where it was the official language of the Soviet Union. This applies across families in different parts of the Ukraine including my extended one. Most Ukrainians apart from those in the very east and Crimea speak both languages. Russian will stay as the second language of the Ukraine. The languages are very close, with Ukrainian classed as old Russian.

There were no minority-related acts by legislation so the situation is certainly not the same.

There is no persecution of the Russian minority which is about 30% of the population by Ukrainians. The law with the Russian language has now reverted back to how it was from 1991 to 2010 with Ukrainian the official language but Russian recognised as a second language. The main reason Yanukovych was keen on this law was because he speaks very little Ukrainian. My understanding is that the language and the orthodox religion all came from the Rus region around Kyiv and this is why Ukrainian is the old form of the language and Russian the modern version.

There have never been until the last few weeks any major tensions between the Russian and Ukrainian populations, with Russians identifying themselves as Ukrainians and this is all the population's country. The interim government want to unify the country as this is in their interests and also all of the populations. The industrial heartland is in the east and all Ukrainians recognise that they benefit from the production and exports from this. In the south and most western major cities (including Kyiv, Lyiv being an exception) Russian is spoken even though the majority of people in the west of the country are of Ukrainian origin.

The enemy of virtually all of the people is rampant corruption and crony capitalism, which means that there are the very rich few and the many poor. In the world corruption index Ukraine is at about 180 out of 200 odd countries. Under Yanukovych if you were outside of his political circle and already running a successful business or started one then there was a good chance that your profits would be subject to a 'tax investigation' and extra payments or you would be made an offer you couldn't refuse at the ruling classes prices with no redress to law and the courts as this was also controlled by them. This was the common enemy of all Ukrainians, hence the protests with many Russians-Ukrainians and Ukrainians protesting (and dying) side by side to remove this cancer which affects all of them from society. This also affected many workers in the east where strikes or any other expression of workers rights, would lead to dismissal, again with no redress through the courts. They looked upon the EU trade agreement and influence as a way of stamping out this cancer from society so it became an aspiration and hence they became the centre of the protests.

What virtually all Ukrainians see in Western Europe, are relatively uncorrupt rich countries with independent courts, respected property and human rights and they want the same. The old Soviet East European countries in the EU still have corruption problems, which I understand are gradually improving, but none of them have problems on Ukraine's scale.
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Shackeng

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #17 on: 05 March 2014, 18:02:28 »

Your the man in the know Rods, thanks for that lot  :y

At the end of the day, us lot have a mixture of the BBC, Murdoch News and Putin news (RT) so we make a best guess based on the crap that they spew out.

Hope your family is okay ?

Keep us informed if you will, its certainly more interesting then the joys of STEMO's anal inspections  ;D

For the best world news coverage, I commend Al Jazeera, which gives excellent reports from around the world. It is not, as many think, a mouthpiece for Arab propaganda. :y
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #18 on: 05 March 2014, 18:51:06 »

Lizzie from a historical point of view might be interested in several articles written by Professor Timothy Snyder about Ukraine on the nybooks blog. The guy is an obvious liberal, but the writing is in a very sober form where he Professor of History at Yale University, specializing in the history of Central and Eastern Europe, and the Holocaust. For the academic year 2013–2014, he has been the holder of the Philippe Roman Chair of International History at the London School of Economics and Political Science.

This is his most recent:

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/?insrc=hpss

This is a very complex situation, with one or two reasonably good outcomes and many, many possible bad ones. How it will end up I've no idea as it is a very fluid situation, with all sides making good and bad decisions as things unfold. I can only hope for the best.


Thanks for that interesting piece, and your resume which I agree with. The fact is, as I have repeatedly stated on other international affairs, the path to true democracy is a very long and hard one. Britain went along that path, and also hindered the hopes of others in the time of the British Empire, with India in particular coming to mind, let alone during the earlier creation of the United States of America.

Russia itself is going down that very same path to eventually acquire full democracy, and so it's old imperialistic states are being affected by the "old parent" who in part is trying to hold on to the reigns, but one day must recognise the need to finally let go of the apron strings, and the perceived powers it represents.

Once more I say leave well alone and let the natural rhythm, and the will of the local people, take the situation forward to it's conclusion. :y

Remember, all the old empires tried to dictate to the emerging states where the future laid, but the nationalistic forces within reached out and made their own way to their utopia's. The blood spilt in these developments throughout history have finally added up, or are still adding up, to create a brave new world.
« Last Edit: 05 March 2014, 18:57:35 by Lizzie Zoom »
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tigers_gonads

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #19 on: 05 March 2014, 18:57:28 »

Your the man in the know Rods, thanks for that lot  :y

At the end of the day, us lot have a mixture of the BBC, Murdoch News and Putin news (RT) so we make a best guess based on the crap that they spew out.

Hope your family is okay ?

Keep us informed if you will, its certainly more interesting then the joys of STEMO's anal inspections  ;D

For the best world news coverage, I commend Al Jazeera, which gives excellent reports from around the world. It is not, as many think, a mouthpiece for Arab propaganda. :y


Noted  :y
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chrisgixer

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #20 on: 05 March 2014, 19:05:53 »

One wonders what would happen if people had nothing to worry about... :-\

Oh wait, yes I know, they'd be worried.  ::)

Putin just finds it all a bit close too home, that's all.  Sebastapole security too. What else are they interested in Ukrane? Nothing.

Busing in supporters, they must think we where all born yesterday. 
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #21 on: 05 March 2014, 20:17:28 »

I said Russia will soon sort it.. thats happening now..  they have the power and wont permit any foreign force in front of the door..   Ukraine become like this because west  lost in Syria and they wanted to give an answer ..
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #22 on: 05 March 2014, 23:37:33 »


At the end of the day, us lot have a mixture of the BBC, Murdoch News and Putin news (RT) so we make a best guess based on the crap that they spew out.


I watched a bit of Russia Today yesterday and they were really going to town on the Yanks, listing all the countries that the US has invaded or interfered with and were basically calling them a bunch of hypocrites!  ::) 

They then did a piece about how Yanukovych was democratically elected, only to be forced to flee in fear of his life from armed fascist gangsters, backed up by corrupt oligarchs and western countries!  :o  and then they went on to profile Ukraine's new leaders and showed their nice mansions.  :)

Now you don't get that sort of thing on the BBC!!  ::)  ;D



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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #23 on: 06 March 2014, 10:49:08 »


At the end of the day, us lot have a mixture of the BBC, Murdoch News and Putin news (RT) so we make a best guess based on the crap that they spew out.


I watched a bit of Russia Today yesterday and they were really going to town on the Yanks, listing all the countries that the US has invaded or interfered with and were basically calling them a bunch of hypocrites!  ::) 

They then did a piece about how Yanukovych was democratically elected, only to be forced to flee in fear of his life from armed fascist gangsters, backed up by corrupt oligarchs and western countries!  :o  and then they went  on to profile Ukraine's new leaders and showed their nice mansions.  :)

Now you don't get that sort of thing on the BBC!!  ::)  ;D

That is a FACT that we in the West cannot ignore, and it is not just the USA of course that this can be applied to!! ::) ::)

There is no way we can ever take the moral high ground.



.........and yes, I still love the great National Anthem of the USSR which my left wing father played every so often..........
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs

 :y

« Last Edit: 06 March 2014, 10:58:57 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Stemo

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #24 on: 06 March 2014, 13:10:45 »


At the end of the day, us lot have a mixture of the BBC, Murdoch News and Putin news (RT) so we make a best guess based on the crap that they spew out.


I watched a bit of Russia Today yesterday and they were really going to town on the Yanks, listing all the countries that the US has invaded or interfered with and were basically calling them a bunch of hypocrites!  ::) 

They then did a piece about how Yanukovych was democratically elected, only to be forced to flee in fear of his life from armed fascist gangsters, backed up by corrupt oligarchs and western countries!  :o  and then they went on to profile Ukraine's new leaders and showed their nice mansions.  :)

Now you don't get that sort of thing on the BBC!!  ::)  ;D
You missed the bit where the newscaster resigned in protest then?  ;D
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #25 on: 06 March 2014, 16:03:05 »

So it looks as though Crimea is going to join itself with the Russian Federation.

The Crimean MP's have democratically voted to go down that route, with some form of referendum being undertaken for the people of Crimea over the next two weeks and Russia being asked to approve such a move.

Probably the best thing that could happen in the circumstances and will hopefully silence the western powers. :y
« Last Edit: 06 March 2014, 16:06:16 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #26 on: 06 March 2014, 16:25:16 »


At the end of the day, us lot have a mixture of the BBC, Murdoch News and Putin news (RT) so we make a best guess based on the crap that they spew out.


I watched a bit of Russia Today yesterday and they were really going to town on the Yanks, listing all the countries that the US has invaded or interfered with and were basically calling them a bunch of hypocrites!  ::) 

They then did a piece about how Yanukovych was democratically elected, only to be forced to flee in fear of his life from armed fascist gangsters, backed up by corrupt oligarchs and western countries!  :o  and then they went  on to profile Ukraine's new leaders and showed their nice mansions.  :)

Now you don't get that sort of thing on the BBC!!  ::)  ;D

That is a FACT that we in the West cannot ignore, and it is not just the USA of course that this can be applied to!! ::) ::)

There is no way we can ever take the moral high ground.



.........and yes, I still love the great National Anthem of the USSR which my left wing father played every so often..........
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs

 :y


.......and there was me thinking that your dad was either Anthony Eden or Alec Douglas Home. ;) :-* :-* :-* :-*

I obviously know nothing. :) ;D ;D
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #27 on: 06 March 2014, 16:50:59 »

So it looks as though Crimea is going to join itself with the Russian Federation.

The Crimean MP's have democratically voted to go down that route, with some form of referendum being undertaken for the people of Crimea over the next two weeks and Russia being asked to approve such a move.

Probably the best thing that could happen in the circumstances and will hopefully silence the western powers. :y

I wonder about that, when their territory is occupied by Russia and possibly Crimean MP's worry about disappearing in the night if they go against Uncle Vlad.  :-\ 

They should set the referendum after the Ukrainian elections in May so the people of Crimea can have a proper idea of what the future of Ukraine might look like and they can have a national conversation about the future of their country. So a referendum in a years time when the dust has settled, under international supervision/observation and with sensible debate would be democratic.  A snap referendum under the barrels of Russian guns is not democracy in my opinion!  ::)

I was no fan of Tony Blairs government, but the decision to upgrade our hunter/killer subs and to build the 2 new aircraft carriers might yet prove to be wise. Nobody wants war but history tells us that appeasing territory hungry bullies just dosn't work!  :(
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #28 on: 06 March 2014, 17:01:14 »


At the end of the day, us lot have a mixture of the BBC, Murdoch News and Putin news (RT) so we make a best guess based on the crap that they spew out.


I watched a bit of Russia Today yesterday and they were really going to town on the Yanks, listing all the countries that the US has invaded or interfered with and were basically calling them a bunch of hypocrites!  ::) 

They then did a piece about how Yanukovych was democratically elected, only to be forced to flee in fear of his life from armed fascist gangsters, backed up by corrupt oligarchs and western countries!  :o  and then they went  on to profile Ukraine's new leaders and showed their nice mansions.  :)

Now you don't get that sort of thing on the BBC!!  ::)  ;D

That is a FACT that we in the West cannot ignore, and it is not just the USA of course that this can be applied to!! ::) ::)

There is no way we can ever take the moral high ground.



.........and yes, I still love the great National Anthem of the USSR which my left wing father played every so often..........
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs

 :y


.......and there was me thinking that your dad was either Anthony Eden or Alec Douglas Home. ;) :-* :-* :-* :-*

I obviously know nothing. :) ;D ;D

 ;D ;D ;D

The funny thing is that sometimes I thought he was as mad or mixed  up as Eden! Although a senior Royal Navy NCO, he would often go around saying "better Red than dead, whilst at other times happily singing Nazi / SS / Kriegsmarine marching songs!

No wonder I am never quite sure if I am to the left of centre or hard right wing! ;D ;D ;)
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: So how is the Ukraine going to pan out?
« Reply #29 on: 06 March 2014, 17:08:35 »

So it looks as though Crimea is going to join itself with the Russian Federation.

The Crimean MP's have democratically voted to go down that route, with some form of referendum being undertaken for the people of Crimea over the next two weeks and Russia being asked to approve such a move.

Probably the best thing that could happen in the circumstances and will hopefully silence the western powers. :y

I wonder about that, when their territory is occupied by Russia and possibly Crimean MP's worry about disappearing in the night if they go against Uncle Vlad.  :-\ 

They should set the referendum after the Ukrainian elections in May so the people of Crimea can have a proper idea of what the future of Ukraine might look like and they can have a national conversation about the future of their country. So a referendum in a years time when the dust has settled, under international supervision/observation and with sensible debate would be democratic.  A snap referendum under the barrels of Russian guns is not democracy in my opinion!  ::)

I was no fan of Tony Blairs government, but the decision to upgrade our hunter/killer subs and to build the 2 new aircraft carriers might yet prove to be wise. Nobody wants war but history tells us that appeasing territory hungry bullies just dosn't work!  :(

Maybe, but when 58% of the population are apparently ethnic Russians.................?

As for them orders for new major warships; I have stated for some time this is a great move, along with the replacement of Trident, as this World will never be a safe place and the belief the threat to our nation comes from terrorists only is plain wrong. We must be prepared for a return of usual international warfare, and having more at the negotiating table than piss and air! :y :y
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