Topic: Strange noise (Read 4022 times)

jonny2112 · « **on:** 14 April 2007, 20:38:56 »

Got home from work today and did an oil and filter change on the Meega. Also gave a good squirt of WD40 round the wishbone and idler bolts in preparation! Also gave a bit of a wipe round where the oil from the rockers is leaking.
Took the car for a drive there and its making a strange whirring type noise. My initial thoughts are that it is something to do with one of the belts, it's that type of noise. I'll be gutted if there is something amiss, although I had already decided to do the cambelt shortly anyway. Wont be too bad I suppose if thats the problem, it will just force my hand.

Not much info I know, but has anyone any thoughts? Anything I could have done/dislodged to create problems? Anything obvious I should be checking or ruling out by elimination?
As always any help or advice gratefully received!
Cheers

Chopsdad · « **Reply #1 on:** 14 April 2007, 21:05:35 »

WD may have sprayed onto the belt causing it to slip a little?

jonny2112 · « **Reply #2 on:** 14 April 2007, 21:23:36 »

I dont see anything unusual, not that I know what I'm looking at half the time! There is a bit of a funny smell under the bonnet and I also thought that it might have been WD and maybe I did spray it somewhere I shouldn't have. i wonder is there any point in me trying to wipe what I can of the belt to try and clean it just in case.
Will it be safe to drive do you think if the belt's slipping? I need to get to work tomorrow, about 60 miles round trip, and I'll get it looked at on Monday morning.

jonny2112 · « **Reply #3 on:** 14 April 2007, 21:48:48 »

Had another look - noise much worse. Hard to describe - not a clanking sound but definately not good. I think the smell is actually the heat reacting with the stuff I cleaned the slam panel and relay cover with!
I'm not going to drive it.
If the crankshaft sensor or something had been dislodged, would it make a strange noise, or would something like that actually prevent it from starting? Engine runs, but sounds very unhealthy

Markie · « **Reply #4 on:** 14 April 2007, 22:12:55 »

time for some inspections tomorrow before driving - pop the cam cover off make sure all is well for starters

then report back

jonny2112 · « **Reply #5 on:** 14 April 2007, 23:01:53 »

Cheers Markie, starting to worry now. I can see my holiday slipping away..................... :-/
NO. Be positive!! I take it you mean the cambelt cover? You're thinking the belts gone? I'm wondering is it one of the tensioners, but that's because I've read it on here that they go thereby causing the belt to fail etc. The belt was replaced at just under 40k but I can only presume that the tensioners were done then too, as it was by Vx.

Markie · « **Reply #6 on:** 14 April 2007, 23:04:53 »

Quote

Cheers Markie, starting to worry now. I can see my holiday slipping away..................... :-/
NO. Be positive!! I take it you mean the cambelt cover? You're thinking the belts gone? I'm wondering is it one of the tensioners, but that's because I've read it on here that they go thereby causing the belt to fail etc. The belt was replaced at just under 40k but I can only presume that the tensioners were done then too, as it was by Vx.

No be positive !! just pop the cambelt cover off to have a look see all is okay at this stage!

when was it last done?

Also burning smell - like oil .....? re check your steps and make sure everything you did was 100%

But i would check the cambelt tensioner / belt still in place before using again ( or diagosing the issue)

jonny2112 · « **Reply #7 on:** 14 April 2007, 23:12:14 »

Yes I'll start to strip it down tomorrow afternoon and see how I get on. I'm glad I have the dvd too, as no doubt it will an invaluable reference. The belt was done at 39k iirc and there is now 72k on the clock.
I'm not sure about the smell but will indeed retrace my steps in daylight. Strange that it only started after the oil change, but I guess if theres a problem it can start anytime.
I used autoglym bumper care on the slam panel rather than the usual vinyl care, and I think that is causing the smell, with the heat of the engine bay, but I'll check further.
Cheers pal

Admin · « **Reply #8 on:** 15 April 2007, 08:26:14 »

First things first.

Turn off air con when running. Is noise still there?

If so, now try this. Remove the aux belt.
15mm socket, short externsion and long handled drive for leverage.
Release tension by levering clockwise. Be very careful when releasing belt!

With belt released and clear briefly run engine (no water pump running so don't run for long).

If noise is no logner there you know it is either aux belt tensioner, alternator, water pump or PAS pump.

If noise is still there, turn engine off quickly and prepare to change cambelt kit...

jonny2112 · « **Reply #9 on:** 15 April 2007, 13:12:05 »

Quote

First things first.

Turn off air con when running. Is noise still there?

If so, now try this. Remove the aux belt.
15mm socket, short externsion and long handled drive for leverage.
Release tension by levering clockwise. Be very careful when releasing belt!

With belt released and clear briefly run engine (no water pump running so don't run for long).

If noise is no logner there you know it is either aux belt tensioner, alternator, water pump or PAS pump.

If noise is still there, turn engine off quickly and prepare to change cambelt kit...

Cheers for that. I'm having a sneaky break at work (some things are more important!!) and taking a quick look at the dvd. So I'll go as far as removing the aux belt, without loosening the pulley bolts, but by releasing the tension and levering the belt off?
I wasn't sure that I could run the engine at all at this stage of removal so thanks a lot. As you say it will allow for a greater process of elimination.

jonny2112 · « **Reply #10 on:** 15 April 2007, 13:39:16 »

Sorry I should have asked if the aux belt can be removed without first removing the trumpets and multiram, or will it be okay to run the car briefly with these already removed?

TheBoy · « **Reply #11 on:** 15 April 2007, 13:42:24 »

Quote

Sorry I should have asked if the aux belt can be removed without first removing the trumpets and multiram, or will it be okay to run the car briefly with these already removed?

It probably won't run well without trumpets, as the ECU wouldn't be able to tell how much air is being used (MAF on airbox).

jonny2112 · « **Reply #12 on:** 15 April 2007, 13:47:07 »

Thanks TB. I'll have a look and see if I can get the belt off without interfering with anything else, although if I cant then I suppose I will have to just run it briefly without them.

TheBoy · « **Reply #13 on:** 15 April 2007, 14:03:10 »

Quote

Thanks TB. I'll have a look and see if I can get the belt off without interfering with anything else, although if I cant then I suppose I will have to just run it briefly without them.

Easy enough to quickly bodge back in to run it

jonny2112 · « **Reply #14 on:** 15 April 2007, 21:42:40 »

Well unfortunately the removal of the aux belt did not reveal the cause of the problem, so I stripped it down as far as the cambelt. As far as it goes I'm very pleased with my efforts, but the credit has to go to those of you who made the dvd.
Anyway, I do not see anything untoward around the belt, other than there is some slack in it. Surely there should not be any slack?

TheBoy · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 April 2007, 21:45:55 »

Quote

Well unfortunately the removal of the aux belt did not reveal the cause of the problem, so I stripped it down as far as the cambelt. As far as it goes I'm very pleased with my efforts, but the credit has to go to those of you who made the dvd.
Anyway, I do not see anything untoward around the belt, other than there is some slack in it. Surely there should not be any slack?

Err, no. Should be fairly tight, not slack....

Markie · « **Reply #16 on:** 15 April 2007, 21:52:39 »

fairly taught at all points otherwse the slackness could cause it to slip over a tooth.... :-/

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #17 on:** 15 April 2007, 21:54:01 »

The belt is tensioned by a sprung tensioner. It shouldn't be loose but neigher will it be as tight as some cars which have fixed tensioners. It's the condition of the pullies that would be more interesting given the symptoms. Do any of them show signs of grease leakage?

It's really only possible to assess their condition with the belt off but they should have very little if any play and should feel smooth when spun by hand. These are supposed to be packed with grease so if they spin very easily or are rattly it's likely that the grease has dried up.

TBH, as you've got to take it all apart to check these you may as well fit a new belt and rollers, especially if the history is unknown or the current set has been on there for a reasonable mileage.

Kevin

jonny2112 · « **Reply #18 on:** 15 April 2007, 22:10:58 »

Bad light has stopped play, so to speak, so further investigations in the morning.
There is about 1 1/2 - 2 inches slack which is showing at the minute along the right hand side, so much so that the belt can touch the edge of the timing cover - not good! My initial thought would have been that the tensioner has gone, but don't know how to test it. having said that it is my intention now to fit a new cambelt kit, but I was worried that there was something else wrong. Same old story, don't want to go through all this and get it rebuilt only to find the problem is still there.
I did notice an odd thing though, and think it was on the tensioner iirc. It looked like a weld but was a funny colour. Although it seemed hard to the touch I'm wondering about grease leakage as Kevin has suggested. I'll examine the pulleys better in the morning.
I'll order the kit and new aux belt tomorrow. Whilst it is stripped I'm going to do the rocker gaskets and check the lifters and will need new camshaft oil seals too.

TheBoy · « **Reply #19 on:** 15 April 2007, 22:16:56 »

Quote

Bad light has stopped play, so to speak, so further investigations in the morning.
There is about 1 1/2 - 2 inches slack which is showing at the minute along the right hand side, so much so that the belt can touch the edge of the timing cover - not good! My initial thought would have been that the tensioner has gone, but don't know how to test it. having said that it is my intention now to fit a new cambelt kit, but I was worried that there was something else wrong. Same old story, don't want to go through all this and get it rebuilt only to find the problem is still there.
I did notice an odd thing though, and think it was on the tensioner iirc. It looked like a weld but was a funny colour. Although it seemed hard to the touch I'm wondering about grease leakage as Kevin has suggested. I'll examine the pulleys better in the morning.
I'll order the kit and new aux belt tomorrow. Whilst it is stripped I'm going to do the rocker gaskets and check the lifters and will need new camshaft oil seals too.

Sounds like tensioner or pulley has failed. Put a new kit on. You do need a v6 camlock/timing kit, it cannot be done properly without.

jonny2112 · « **Reply #20 on:** 15 April 2007, 22:25:41 »

Yes indeed, I'll have to make a few enquiries for the loan of one.

Markie · « **Reply #21 on:** 15 April 2007, 22:32:26 »

theres far too much slack in that..lets hope you have got to it in time

Pics would be good - im wierd that way

jonny2112 · « **Reply #22 on:** 15 April 2007, 22:34:14 »

Quote

theres far too much slack in that..lets hope you have got to it in time

Pics would be good - im wierd that way

I hope so too

It was too dark for pics but I'll put some on in the morning

jonny2112 · « **Reply #23 on:** 16 April 2007, 09:19:39 »

Took some pics this morning -

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k295/jonny2112/TBA16-1.jpg

shows the slack in the belt. Hard to illustrate, but the belt can touch the cover fixing point.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k295/jonny2112/TBA16.jpg

shows the tensioner and possible grease leakage?

Markie · « **Reply #24 on:** 16 April 2007, 09:28:06 »

Quote

Took some pics this morning -

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k295/jonny2112/TBA16-1.jpg

shows the slack in the belt. Hard to illustrate, but the belt can touch the cover fixing point.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k295/jonny2112/TBA16.jpg

shows the tensioner and possible grease leakage?

guess your changing it anyway now - still think theres too much play :-/

Marks DTM Calib · « **Reply #25 on:** 16 April 2007, 09:35:19 »

Is that goo around the tensioner grease....or melted plastic....either way its shot!

jonny2112 · « **Reply #26 on:** 16 April 2007, 09:41:05 »

Quote

Is that goo around the tensioner grease....or melted plastic....either way its shot!

Feels hard to the touch, rather than soft like goo, but it's bu@@ered!

jonny2112 · « **Reply #27 on:** 16 April 2007, 09:43:56 »

I'm going to remove the cams on the drivers side to have a look at the lifters. Before I start that, has anyone any advice re their removal and refitting? I'm particularly worried about refitting and then having to set the timing but guys here are changing cams all the time so it cant be that difficult can it?

Matchless · « **Reply #28 on:** 16 April 2007, 10:55:12 »

Tensioner has failed.
Noise could have been the tensioner bearing or the belt hitting the cover.
Get a belt kit, fit it using the cambelt locking and timing kit then run the engine to check its OK because, with so much slack, there is a risk that the belt has jumped a tooth or two and changed the cam timing. A couple of teeth either way should be OK but any more will result in bent valves.

Why do you want to check the lifters?

jonny2112 · « **Reply #29 on:** 16 April 2007, 11:06:54 »

I want to check the lifters due to the constant tapping noise, not really anything to do with this particular problem but as its now stripped down I may as well do anything else thats needed!

Is there any way at his stage to visually tell if the timing has been affected? I'm quite worried about not being able to set it correctly, though if I have the proper kit then I should be able to manage it I think.

Matchless · « **Reply #30 on:** 16 April 2007, 13:29:52 »

Socket on crankshaft centre bolt, rotate clockwise (only) until notch on cambelt sprocket lines up with a rib on casting at 6 oclock, timing marks on cam sprockets should now line-up with marks on backplate. (might have to rotate a further 360 deg).

Cams are numbered 1 to 4, left to right, sprockets have two marks each, use the mark which corresponds to the cam number.

This can be used for fault checking but is not accurate enough for fitting a belt, you need the locking and timing kit for this.

If you attempt to remove the belt then you must set the crank to 60 deg BTDC first or you will damage valves. ( 60 deg BTDC = notch at 4 o clock)

jonny2112 · « **Reply #31 on:** 16 April 2007, 20:59:30 »

Quote

Socket on crankshaft centre bolt, rotate clockwise (only) until notch on cambelt sprocket lines up with a rib on casting at 6 oclock, timing marks on cam sprockets should now line-up with marks on backplate. (might have to rotate a further 360 deg).

Cams are numbered 1 to 4, left to right, sprockets have two marks each, use the mark which corresponds to the cam number.

This can be used for fault checking but is not accurate enough for fitting a belt, you need the locking and timing kit for this.

If you attempt to remove the belt then you must set the crank to 60 deg BTDC first or you will damage valves. ( 60 deg BTDC = notch at 4 o clock)

Thanks for that. Still at work though so no progress today

Has crossed my mind too about checking the manifold gasket, in relation to the tapping, though I am fairly sure it is the lifters. Whilst the car is in bits may be a good idea to check. How difficult would it be to visually inspect it, and what am I looking for?
Cheers

ians · « **Reply #32 on:** 16 April 2007, 23:42:27 »

As well as all the goo, the tensioner looks completely untensioned (at its end stop) to me -or had you released it already)

jonny2112 · « **Reply #33 on:** 18 April 2007, 09:55:26 »

I didn't initially notice the tensioner being off, but I hadn't touched it. I take it that it will be safe enough to turn the crank manually (when i get the E20 torx bit) with some slack in the belt?

The Barge Captain · « **Reply #34 on:** 18 April 2007, 15:42:12 »

Don't forget that you will also need a 30 (?)mm offset crank spanner in order to tighten the tensioner pulleys.

If i have told you the wrong size i'm sure someone will be along soon to correct me.

jonny2112 · « **Reply #35 on:** 18 April 2007, 16:28:07 »

Quote

Don't forget that you will also need a 30 (?)mm offset crank spanner in order to tighten the tensioner pulleys.

If i have told you the wrong size i'm sure someone will be along soon to correct me.

No I think you're right! That's next on the shopping list, but seems a bit difficult to find.

I got the torx bit and have rotated the crank as required. It was both difficult and easy - harder to rotate at times but it was probably due to having to take up the slack.
All the timing notches seem to be in sync, and although I haven't aligned them exactly, both 1 and 2 seem to be equidistant from their respective notch, and likewise with 3 and 4. I'm really pleased about this because I am thinking that there may be no internal damage as the cam timing looks ok. Am I barking up the wrong tree??

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #36 on:** 18 April 2007, 16:58:34 »

If the marks are still in alignment I think it's likely that your engine has had a very lucky escape!

New belt and set of idlers and it should be sorted.

Edited to say it will be stiff turning the crank over at various positions because you're working against the compression stroke of one of the cylinders.

Kevin

jonny2112 · « **Reply #37 on:** 18 April 2007, 17:09:58 »

Quote

If the marks are still in alignment I think it's likely that your engine has had a very lucky escape!

New belt and set of idlers and it should be sorted.

Edited to say it will be stiff turning the crank over at various positions because you're working against the compression stroke of one of the cylinders.

Kevin

Yes I think I've ben really lucky! New stuff all ordered today though not sure of the length/part number for the aux belt.

Dave-C · « **Reply #38 on:** 18 April 2007, 19:08:19 »

Just noticed this thread, haven't been able to get on here just lately.... " You Lucky Sod!" That's all I can say... Luck of the Irish..

DC

jonny2112 · « **Reply #39 on:** 18 April 2007, 21:04:32 »

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Author Topic: Strange noise (Read 4022 times)