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[STMO123]

Thats brought back memorys of my first job Debs, as an apprentice toolmaker back in the 70's. I was involved in the manufacture of products as diverse as baring Keep rings that weighed over five cwt used in power station applications and components parts of the Roll Royce RV211 engine. sadly the company closed down many years ago.

Probably went bust with you and the lads going down the scrappy every five minutes eh Tony    

[pscocoa]

Whilst we bemoan the loss of industrial heritage the big picture is that we are acquiring all the advances in technology that we would ever hope to achieve by importing from those who have a comparative advantage in these technologies and in labour and other production costs. Our expertise has of course been in the very high tech, financial services etc which was very successful until recently.
The outcome of this use of comparative advantage was of course that this basically  invisible sector generated lots of profits and taxes and more taxes from employees earnings which was used by poor government to fuel a burgeoning public sector with large public sector salaries and regimes which became a huge part of the import of crap/unsustainable spending and not necessarily on technologies that would benefit the nation. We waste so much money on the public sector which generates a low level of improvement of life commensurate with the money we pump into it.
If we were not under such pressure from our own governments to spend spend spend on the high street and borrow to do so and started to look at what we are doing here we may see a remergence of that engineering spirit as we actually seek to repair things as many of you on this site do - and not throw away as we are encouraged to do.

[Radar]

I work in the steel industry supplying mainly into shopfitting companies. In the past 10 years i have been doing this more and more manufactuiring firms have gone. Those still around tend to buy imported systems or chromed elements from china where they have been more relaxed regarding health and safety. The biggest shopfitting companies who traditionally manufactured in house have been bought by european or american firms and have manufactuirng facilities in eastern europe. The government does nothing to help the steel industry.

[LaserLance]

The government does nothing to help the steel industry. Or any other industry that was ever worth saving unless you count saving the bank sector and look how much it has and will cost us for the forseeable future >:(And the way things are going it looks like the bad old days are returning with strikes and wage cuts and tit for tat reprisails between management and workers ocurring.Looks like "Sunny Jim" has been reincarnated as gormless brown(Thats jim callaghan the last labour prime minister before teflon Tony B Liar )

[Ken T]

Hmm, re Toyota and Volkswagen, if I 'm not mistaken the Golf factory is virtually completely automatic, all done by robots. In this Toyota falls down, in actually using people to build things. On a cost analysis, when a car cost so little relative to a person's wages, it is uneconomic to use lots of labour to make things. However Volkswagen brings funds into the German economy, which helps the balance of imports, plus sales, service etc. I have been interested in lathes etc for some time, and they always make stuff on the cheap because that's what the consumer demands. For example a milling machine can be bought from Fleabay for £385. This is very cheap, however a chinese manufaturer was heard to say "why do you always buy the cheapest we make, and not the best ?". Answer is because if they made stuff well, and shipped it over here, the cost would be such that it would be worthwhile UK manufacturers competing. While we as a nation continue to buy the cheap Crap that comes from China, they will continue to grow strong and us weak. Sooner or later it will be nearly impossible for us to re-enter manufacturing; Far east products started off being pathetic in abilities, but they are getting better as their younger generation gets better educated and hence young designers make better, more featured products. I remember Chinese/ Japanese sayings like "don't give your enemy bullets ". Well this applies in business as well. They control many major technologies, like LCD's, components etc, and if a foreign manufacturer was threatening one of their own, I bet they would experience "difficulties in supply".

They have a plan to become the major player in technology and hence will restrict imports with artificial trade barriers, whatever, to achieve their plan. And the UK fall for it, time after time. Do you remember the enterprise zone business some years back, intended to attract foreign manufacturing to areas of Scotland ?. I remember my Dad telling me how well it was working because Chungwa were going to move a CRT plant here. However at the time LCD's were just starting to take off, the demand for CRT's was going to fall, so this was purely a tax dodge.

I think we need to change from being shop orientated to manufacturing orientated. I believe you have to automate the manufacture of low cost items, and put your effort into design, advancing our technical expertise, and producing better products, that China will have to work very hard to equal. The government will have to protect manufacturing by fair means or foul. 

The UK could become a major player once again, but it will take a major change from the top down to do so.

Ken

[amigov6]

Things certainly have changed. Manufacturing to export has dropped dramatically. Too often i take an empty container to load machinery to export from yet another engineering company that has gone down after two or three generations, another solid brick building will be levelled resulting in ANOTHER retail carpets r us etc. park which are sprouting at an alarming rate. Our towns and their respective trades are dying a sad death. 
    Yes there are technological advances but it's a crying shame to lose our once great industries. Not everyone wants to sit at a desk all day.

[Radar]

Unfortunately there is so much pricing pressure at the moment that companies are buying whatever is the cheapest. I recently spoke with the buyer at a company that supplies Asda with it's shelving systems. He conceeded that my product was of better quality and would last longer but said he'd prefer to go with an alternative,cheaper product since it would mean Asda would reorder from him sooner the next time.

[Ken T]

Unfortunately there is so much pricing pressure at the moment that companies are buying whatever is the cheapest. I recently spoke with the buyer at a company that supplies Asda with it's shelving systems. He conceeded that my product was of better quality and would last longer but said he'd prefer to go with an alternative,cheaper product since it would mean Asda would reorder from him sooner the next time.

That is the short term view, the quick profit, that has helped to reduce this country to the state it is in. trouble is we are educating the consumer to buy cheapest, see all the ads for which supermarket has the most price cuts, never mind which supports most British farmers etc.

ken

[Diamond Black Geezer]

It's not just the issue of cheap labour. Although Toyota are the largest, BMW, Audi and so on do very well although their German labour force costs are high.

We used to design high quality cars. Sir Alec Issigonis designed a car which was well ahead of its time when first manufactured. As well as poor government, our manufacturing base was also hit hard by the unions. Remember Red Robbo? 

I actually met red rob once, he gave a very informative talk about his career, and the industry of the time. Maybe I was simply hoodwinked into believing his version of events; but the guy appeared very intelligent, not particularly anti-management. He seemed to have very much been made a scape-goat, and demonized by the BL monster. The famous images of him atop a car roof calling for people to revolt had many unseen discussions over tables, via letters and memos preceeding it. Like I say, he seemed a decent bloke to me; but having said all that, were the unions allowed to get too strong, and hold too much sway? Yes they were. Did they help bugger up industry in general? Yes they did!

Second little personal thought is... I trained to the best of my abilities at Coventry Uni in Automotive Design. That included Computer / Clay modelling, Basic (and not so basic, gulp!) engineering, sketching, designing, customer / market research (dull!) to ergonomics. I graduated a couple of years ago now, and so far managed a month working, 23 months 'unemployed!' Not for the want of trying, either; there's very, very little out there, sadly.

I'm all dressed up but no where to go, really!

[Tony H]

Thats brought back memorys of my first job Debs, as an apprentice toolmaker back in the 70's. I was involved in the manufacture of products as diverse as baring Keep rings that weighed over five cwt used in power station applications and components parts of the Roll Royce RV211 engine. sadly the company closed down many years ago.

Probably went bust with you and the lads going down the scrappy every five minutes eh Tony    
[/quo
Tried that and failed Steve down to two main reasons one being I couldn't fit a 5 cwt keep ring in my sanwich box and two it gave me a double hernier trying to carry it 

[doog]

I, like many here, am proud of my ability to 'make things'.....practical, engineering-skills, learned and refined by use and the joy of achievement.

Viewing this http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process

I am minded of the wonderous pool of talent and skill that British engineering once so-proudly boasted.

"Britain: the little country that could!"

What happened......where did it all go?

to me this is it

this is what i think of as British

Doug

[crazyjoetavola]

Some examples of what was and is British engineering achivement............


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AavDxi8X_s[/media]



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XppE109kqI&feature=related[/media]



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9rBcSZb3bE&feature=related[/media]



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC7mMBIkyGY[/media]



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2nlGN6aS8g&feature=related[/media]




[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIlsOovt7kE&feature=channel[/media]



We have also bred men of this caliber;



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpdeNcH1H8A[/media]


and writers who can inspire so..........


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z399i_PksfU[/media]

[Pitchfork]

Cripin or Crispin?

[Derek_in_Penzance]

I did an old-fashioned five-year apprenticeship with Saunders Roe Ltd at East Cowes, Isle of Wight. I'll never forget my first training school exercise, filing down a hunk of mild steel until it was a rectangular shape, all sides parallel, all sides within 0.001" of the specified size. I hated it. It took me weeks to pass that exercise, standing by the vice all day, file in hand.

But after five years, I and all the other 100 or so apprentices in the intake were fully trained engineers of the old school. We could make anything by then (and still can, 40 years later!) That's when I appreciated the the virtues of the tough discipline and ruthless training that we were put through. All that seems to have gone now.

[crazyjoetavola]

Cripin or Crispin?