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Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: biggriffin on 15 August 2017, 10:13:05

Title: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: biggriffin on 15 August 2017, 10:13:05
  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4788488/Cyclist-rode-woman-court-manslaughter.html
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Viral_Jim on 15 August 2017, 10:21:45
When working in london I was hit by a cyclist on two occasions while crossing the road, both times on a "green man". On both occasions the cyclist came off far worse than I did, given I weighed a considerable amount more than the cyclist and bike combined. On both occasions, the cyclists were very "cross" with me about the incident and verbally expressed their displeasure.  ???

Presumably because I had dared to be taking up space on their road.  :-X

As to the matter in hand, I hope the little sh!t does a nice long stretch. Cyclists want to be treated as equals on the road, he needs to be dealt with as harshly as a car driver who had killed someone after removing the front brakes from their car.  ::)
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 15 August 2017, 10:23:48
Tbh he exhibits the same mindset of many a road user who has killed someone through their own stupidity/mistakes but cannot, for reasons of a lack of a moral compass, accept the responsibility.  Take away the bike and you have the exact same f&cktard mentality you see with a motorist who kills a cyclist/pedestrian.  The only difference here is that if he was a motorist he would stand a good chance of getting away with it or at most a slap on the wrists.  Because he is a cyclist he stands a greater chance of getting the book thrown at him.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Entwood on 15 August 2017, 11:02:28
Tbh he exhibits the same mindset of many a road user who has killed someone through their own stupidity/mistakes but cannot, for reasons of a lack of a moral compass, accept the responsibility.  Take away the bike and you have the exact same f&cktard mentality you see with a motorist who kills a cyclist/pedestrian.  The only difference here is that if he was a motorist he would stand a good chance of getting away with it or at most a slap on the wrists.  Because he is a cyclist he stands a greater chance of getting the book thrown at him.

A tad disingenuous IMHO .. he will get the book thrown at him, and quite rightly so, because he rode a bike intended purely for track use (no front brakes) at speed in a busy street, displaying total disregard for

1) The Law
2) Pedestrians
3) Other road users (he could easily have caused a car accident)

If I drove a track car, on slicks, at speed through a town and killed someone, I would also expect to have the book thrown at me.

The fact they have charged him with manslaughter is both unusual and excellent news, this charge should be used for many, many, more vehicle related deaths.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Viral_Jim on 15 August 2017, 11:06:53

The fact they have charged him with manslaughter is both unusual and excellent news, this charge should be used for many, many, more vehicle related deaths.

I agree, but in this case, perhaps charged with MS due to a lack of a suitable alternative charge? Ie does causing death by dangerous driving translate across to a pushbike?  :-\
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: LC0112G on 15 August 2017, 11:25:37

The fact they have charged him with manslaughter is both unusual and excellent news, this charge should be used for many, many, more vehicle related deaths.

I agree, but in this case, perhaps charged with MS due to a lack of a suitable alternative charge? Ie does causing death by dangerous driving translate across to a pushbike?  :-\

Correct. 'Driving' does not apply to a push-bike under the RTA. Section 7 of the RTA does have an offence of "Dangerous Cycling" (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/40/section/7), but there is no "Causing Death by Dangerous Cycling" equivalent to the Section 1 offence of "Causing Death by dangerous Driving" (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/40/section/1).
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: redelitev6 on 15 August 2017, 11:28:58
What an arrogant little sh*t he sounds like , sadly even if he is found guilty he won't go down for any length of time  >:(
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 15 August 2017, 11:32:39
There are many cases of motorists who through lack of attention or deliberate dangerous driving where the driver gets away with a paltry fine and points despite killing or seriously injuring a cyclist of pedestrian.  It is very rare for a cyclist to kill someone else on the road but because it is a member of the lycra mob everyone bayes for blood whereas if a cyclist gets killed the majority of people are apathetic or even, in some cases, believe that the cyclist deserved to be killed.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: STEMO on 15 August 2017, 12:14:44
Tbh he exhibits the same mindset of many a road user who has killed someone through their own stupidity/mistakes but cannot, for reasons of a lack of a moral compass, accept the responsibility.  Take away the bike and you have the exact same f&cktard mentality you see with a motorist who kills a cyclist/pedestrian.  The only difference here is that if he was a motorist he would stand a good chance of getting away with it or at most a slap on the wrists.  Because he is a cyclist he stands a greater chance of getting the book thrown at him.
Jeez. I've read some shite in my time, but that takes the biscuit. Talk about being blinkered.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 15 August 2017, 12:16:38
Tbh he exhibits the same mindset of many a road user who has killed someone through their own stupidity/mistakes but cannot, for reasons of a lack of a moral compass, accept the responsibility.  Take away the bike and you have the exact same f&cktard mentality you see with a motorist who kills a cyclist/pedestrian.  The only difference here is that if he was a motorist he would stand a good chance of getting away with it or at most a slap on the wrists.  Because he is a cyclist he stands a greater chance of getting the book thrown at him.
Jeez. I've read some shite in my time, but that takes the biscuit. Talk about being blinkered.

You been looking in the mirror again?
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Mr Gav on 15 August 2017, 12:47:37
I think you are on your own with this one Guffer as the lad was riding a track bike and the lack of front brake was a major contributing factor.

The question has to be asked "why did she step out in the road?"

Was she at a proper crossing point and if so was it ok for her to cross?

Also he claims she was on the phone, if this is true then this should be a wake up call to all pedestrians as they never pay attention while they are on the phone, a reason why mobile phone use is banned on all major building contracts.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 15 August 2017, 13:37:03
Did I ever say that this chap did no wrong?  Nope.  He's a (quote myself) "f#cktard". 

My beef is that evidence suggests that he will likely be dealt with much more harshly than a driver of a motorised vehicle who had killed a pedestrian or a cyclist.  Have a look at the numerous examples that are reported and you will find that statistically if you kill or seriously injure somebody your sentence is much larger than those given to motorists in similar circumstances.

I hope he is strung up by the ballcocks and flogged with a rattlesnake.  I just wish that motorists who did the same would be treated the same by the justice system and the public.  Alas, it is not the case.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 August 2017, 13:58:41
Then perhaps a change in the law is required... to either introduce an offence of 'Causing death by dangerous cycling' or to change 'Causing death by dangerous driving' to 'Manslaughter' :-\

I suspect that the dangerous cycling offence would begin a slippery slope to insurance and registration.

Also, whilst the manslaughter charge may seem harsh, the severity, and relative unlikelihood of killing someone with a bicycle, perhaps warrants a more severe charge that merely dangerous driving/riding.

I suspect the actual punishment will match the motoring offence, but it should help reiterate the fact that with freedom comes responsibility.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Entwood on 15 August 2017, 14:17:34
Then perhaps a change in the law is required... to either introduce an offence of 'Causing death by dangerous cycling' or to change 'Causing death by dangerous driving' to 'Manslaughter' :-\

I suspect that the dangerous cycling offence would begin a slippery slope to insurance and registration.

Also, whilst the manslaughter charge may seem harsh, the severity, and relative unlikelihood of killing someone with a bicycle, perhaps warrants a more severe charge that merely dangerous driving/riding.

I suspect the actual punishment will match the motoring offence, but it should help reiterate the fact that with freedom comes responsibility.

Historically the offence of "Causing death by dangerous driving" was preceded by the offence of "Manslaughter". However, juries were not convicting offenders as, to some, they were thinking ... "that could have been me", so the "lesser" (???) charge of"Death by Dangerous" was introduced as a way to try to ensure more juries would convict......
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 August 2017, 14:23:44
Ok, so there is precedent then to enter a new charge of Causing Death by Dangerous Cycling...

I suspect that had he been riding either a racing motorbike or racing car that a Manslaughter charge would have been appropriate, whilst enabling the option to enter a plea of guilty of CDbDD to counter the Ms charge.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 15 August 2017, 14:34:45
By all accounts he seems a pompous arsehole hope he gets one up him in the showers.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: STEMO on 15 August 2017, 15:18:59
By all accounts he seems a pompous arsehole hope he gets one up him in the showers.
I often volunteer to be a hangman, so I might as well volunteer to administer that as well.  :-*
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 15 August 2017, 15:29:22
Motorists do not deliberately drive around without front brakes.

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Rods2 on 15 August 2017, 21:27:46
Motorists do not deliberately drive around without front brakes.

Ron.

No, you are right, all motorists are 100% responsible and if they can't check the brakes themselves, for safety's sake they will get a garage too regularly, so you will never see a motorist driving around with front brakes like this:

http://jalopnik.com/5943352/how-to-make-sure-your-brakes-arent-going-to-suddenly-fail (http://jalopnik.com/5943352/how-to-make-sure-your-brakes-arent-going-to-suddenly-fail)



Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 15 August 2017, 21:45:31
Aw Rods 2, now YOU are being disingenuous; you know full well that I meant with front brakes purposely removed (or never fitted in the first place) as had been mentioned earlier.
That is a world apart from brake wear, as per the linked article.
Please don't try to make excuses for the arrogant, lying prat that was the subject of the OP.

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Nick W on 15 August 2017, 21:46:09
Motorists do not deliberately drive around without front brakes.

Ron.

No, you are right, all motorists are 100% responsible and if they can't check the brakes themselves, for safety's sake they will get a garage too regularly, so you will never see a motorist driving around with front brakes like this:

http://jalopnik.com/5943352/how-to-make-sure-your-brakes-arent-going-to-suddenly-fail (http://jalopnik.com/5943352/how-to-make-sure-your-brakes-arent-going-to-suddenly-fail)


No, or driving with shocks so worn that they only function as limit stops to prevent the springs bouncing out :o  Or tyres worn so smooth you can't see where the tread was. Or air filters so choked they could be used to make a nice afro-wig. Oil that is thicker than treacle? Driving on tyres so flat that you can hear them coming from half a mile away?


There are plenty of people out there who can't be trusted with rocks because they'll break them. They tend to be the ones with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement too.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Mister Rog on 15 August 2017, 21:53:35

There seemed to be some crossed wires here regarding the difference between bad or ignorant maintenance, and deliberate intent.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Rods2 on 15 August 2017, 22:25:16
Aw Rods 2, now YOU are being disingenuous; you know full well that I meant with front brakes purposely removed (or never fitted in the first place) as had been mentioned earlier.
That is a world apart from brake wear, as per the linked article.
Please don't try to make excuses for the arrogant, lying prat that was the subject of the OP.

Ron.

Yep, I was deliberately a bit, as the wrong tool in the hands of an arrogant fool malicious or not can end up with the same result. As far as I'm concerned the idiot cyclist deserves to have the book thrown at him.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 15 August 2017, 22:30:49

There seemed to be some crossed wires here regarding the difference between bad or ignorant maintenance, and deliberate intent.

Thank you, Mister Rog; that was exactly the point I was making.
Thanks also to Rods 2 for owning up to playing Devil's Advocate!  ;D

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: aaronjb on 23 August 2017, 21:36:17
He was cleared of manslaughter today. Now, what was that you were saying about him being dealt with more harshly, Matt?
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: TD on 24 August 2017, 06:22:54
He was cleared of manslaughter today. Now, what was that you were saying about him being dealt with more harshly, Matt?

But...

Jurors at the Old Bailey trial took 12 hours to find Mr Alliston not guilty of manslaughter but convicted him of causing bodily harm by wanton and furious driving, which means he could be jailed for up to two years.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: STEMO on 24 August 2017, 07:29:18
My immediate reaction to this story was that he was an arrogant little bastid...that hasn't changed. But, looking at the news item on BBC last night, pertaining to the actual incident, she did walk out into the road against the lights, looking at her phone. He shouted at her twice and tried to avoid her, which he would have done successfully had she not stepped back.
So he was well out of order with his speed and the type of bike he was riding, but she was totally oblivious to her surroundings due to her lack of attention. Manslaughter would have been a bit harsh.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Mister Rog on 24 August 2017, 08:22:00
My immediate reaction to this story was that he was an arrogant little bastid...that hasn't changed. But, looking at the news item on BBC last night, pertaining to the actual incident, she did walk out into the road against the lights, looking at her phone. He shouted at her twice and tried to avoid her, which he would have done successfully had she not stepped back.
So he was well out of order with his speed and the type of bike he was riding, but she was totally oblivious to her surroundings due to her lack of attention. Manslaughter would have been a bit harsh.

I agree, he's probably a little shit, but  . . . .

I clearly remember when being taught to drive that I should always drive in a manner than enabled by to stop in the event of the unexpected. I would expect the same of cyclists and pedestrians, and if everyone actually did transport themselves in that manner our roads would be very much safer.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: aaronjb on 24 August 2017, 09:58:54
He was cleared of manslaughter today. Now, what was that you were saying about him being dealt with more harshly, Matt?

But...

Jurors at the Old Bailey trial took 12 hours to find Mr Alliston not guilty of manslaughter but convicted him of causing bodily harm by wanton and furious driving, which means he could be jailed for up to two years.

Yeah, I was bog-posting (via phone) so couldn't be a didn't want to type a lot - just wanted to point out that Matt's cries of "He's a cyclist so they're going to deal with him more harshly than a car driver" proved unfounded ;) (In fact, based on another instance unrelated to this cyclist that I know of, it seems like the cyclist got off rather lightly compared to a car driver; can't comment on specifics, though)

I do rather like the charge though "wanton and furious driving", beautifully old fashioned language and gives quite the mental image.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 24 August 2017, 10:49:01
Still think he deserves a period in jail, but more importantly shows how dangerous it is checking your phone constantly , being aware of your surroundings & the actions of others is more important than for example a FB comment.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: redelitev6 on 24 August 2017, 11:20:22
Still think he deserves a period in jail, but more importantly shows how dangerous it is checking your phone constantly , being aware of your surroundings & the actions of others is more important than for example a FB comment.
:( I saw a young woman hit by a bus a while ago , she was on her phone and assumed the lights had changed at the crossing , she wandered across the road blissfully unaware of the bus coming down the outside lane ,it hit her with such force her head broke the windscreen and she was punted a way down the road , all through not paying attention .
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 24 August 2017, 11:59:43
It used to be called "Jay-walking" and was an offence - is it still, or does Plod ignore it along with the misdemeanours of cyclists?  ???

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Kevin Wood on 24 August 2017, 12:25:08
Still think he deserves a period in jail, but more importantly shows how dangerous it is checking your phone constantly , being aware of your surroundings & the actions of others is more important than for example a FB comment.

Agreed. After all, you've only got to watch the news to realise the world is not totally without people who will swipe your phone and make off on a stolen moped, or mount a pavement and mow down as many pedestrians as they can.  :(

However, the fact that he had the time to shout two warnings suggests that, had he been riding a roadworthy bike with brakes, he could probably have stopped or at least slowed down to a speed that wouldn't have caused a fatal collision.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: STEMO on 24 August 2017, 12:30:33
So we are, more or less, agreed. He committed a criminal offence, but that offence was not manslaughter. Yes? No?
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 24 August 2017, 12:41:57
I would STILL say manslaughter, as he deliberately, knowingly and without consideration for the safety of others venture forth onto public roads on an illegal, unsafe and potentually (and factually, in this case) lethal machine.
Such a sentence would serve "pour encourager les autres".

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 24 August 2017, 12:42:08
So we are, more or less, agreed. He committed a criminal offence, but that offence was not manslaughter. Yes? No?

Don't know.

.......but the kid comes across as a little shit.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: STEMO on 24 August 2017, 13:16:21
I would STILL say manslaughter, as he deliberately, knowingly and without consideration for the safety of others venture forth onto public roads on an illegal, unsafe and potentually (and factually, in this case) lethal machine.
Such a sentence would serve "pour encourager les autres".

Ron.
Yes, Ron, but a lot of people set out with unroadworthy cars. If they cause a fatality, it's 'death by dangerous driving', not manslaughter.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 24 August 2017, 14:15:56
My immediate reaction to this story was that he was an arrogant little bastid...that hasn't changed. But, looking at the news item on BBC last night, pertaining to the actual incident, she did walk out into the road against the lights, looking at her phone. He shouted at her twice and tried to avoid her, which he would have done successfully had she not stepped back.
So he was well out of order with his speed and the type of bike he was riding, but she was totally oblivious to her surroundings due to her lack of attention. Manslaughter would have been a bit harsh.
[/quote

Apparently he admitted under cross examination that this was a lie. He had been posting it on forums as fact, but cracked under pressure when Rumpole got his teeth into him.
If she was the only person crossing the road against the lights, it shouldn't have been hard to avoid her. Aim for the direction he is walking from and not the direction she is walking in should usually do it.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Kevin Wood on 24 August 2017, 14:53:18
Yes, Ron, but a lot of people set out with unroadworthy cars. If they cause a fatality, it's 'death by dangerous driving', not manslaughter.

By neglect, perhaps, although there's a limit to how bad it can get between MOTs these days. Few people set out having deliberately removed the brakes from their cars, however.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 24 August 2017, 15:20:49
That was exactly my point, Kevin - deliberate, premeditated and irresponsible.
Causing death in such an uncaring way merits a suspended sentence - by the neck!

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 24 August 2017, 15:22:54
Um, maybe I got that wrong? As it was such a deliberate act with predictable consequences, it could be considered murder?

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Kevin Wood on 24 August 2017, 15:45:04
Um, maybe I got that wrong? As it was such a deliberate act with predictable consequences, it could be considered murder?

Ron.

Steady on! There was hardly the premeditated intent to kill.

He's been awarded some time to think about what he's done and his attitude in general. Let's hope he uses it wisely.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 24 August 2017, 16:44:49
He was cleared of manslaughter today. Now, what was that you were saying about him being dealt with more harshly, Matt?

But...

Jurors at the Old Bailey trial took 12 hours to find Mr Alliston not guilty of manslaughter but convicted him of causing bodily harm by wanton and furious driving, which means he could be jailed for up to two years.

Between 1-2 pedestrians on average are sadly killed by cyclists in incidents every year.  Unless the fault was entirely with the pedestrian then you have a very high chance of getting a custodial sentence (well over 50% chance, often closer to 80% in the event of conviction)

Over 100 cyclists get killed by motorists every year, 2/3 of which are the fault of the motorist yet the custodial rate is well below 10%.  Most get a fine, points and community service, those that get custodials often get suspended sentences.  (you can collate your own research but that is what I have seen from the figures I have been able to find)

So yes my point stands.  But be very careful in how my words are used here.  This chap is a firkin idiot, he rode a non-roadworthy bike, in a reckless manner, made a mistake and killed somebody.  He deserves to go to jail, in fact I would welcome a more harsh punishment.  Yes she may have walked out in to traffic while looking at her phone but the cyclist admitted that he had time to shout a warning twice and swerve.  Even on a fixie if you had that much time you also have the time to effectively 'lock' the drive-train and bring the bike to a skidding halt.  Whether there was enough distance to stop I do not know but it would have reduced his speed and maybe this lady would still be alive today.  *

My gripe is that motorists who kill cyclists and pedestrians either through accidental or deliberate reckless acts seem too fall in to the cracks between the charges for Death by reckless/dangerous driving.  Any equivalent for cyclists is well out of date.  He was charged with manslaughter because of this rather than any equivalent charge available to the CPS for motorists.  The sentencing guidelines are very different for them all.

I have no problem with cyclists being held up to high standards of behaviour on the road, look through my previous posts on the subject; I even called for it in a letter to Parlement along with a raft of ideas.  I would ask that motorists are also held to those standards and when caught are punished the same.  After all, motorists are 60 times more likely to KSI a pedestrian than a cyclist and in the event of a pedestrian being run over the chances of death when hit by a bicycle are much lower.  Which is of course logical given the size difference of the vehicles involved.

I would love for the RTA to be reviewed along with the legal definitions and the sentencing guidelines, it might just bring some parity to the situation.  Right now the long and short of it all is this; if I perform an illegal act while cycling and someone ends up KSI, I am rightly going to jail.  If I do the same while driving a car and kill a cyclist, I get a slap on the wrist.  I may even get to claim hardship and keep my license.



*I also think the requirement for just a front brake is also ridiculous, if he slammed on the front brake in panic at 20mph he would have gone head first over the bars and stood a chance of being killed himself.  All road bikes should have front and rear brakes, I would even go as far as saying that all new bikes should have disc brakes.  I am an advocate and they have saved my life many a time when a motorist has decided that a 125kg FLATB with fluo hi-hiz and dual steady/flashing lights front and rear is not visible.  Even in the wet I can go from 25mph to 0 in a couple of meters, with rim brakes I would have hit the side of 2 vehicles last year.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 24 August 2017, 17:40:27
Yes, Ron, but a lot of people set out with unroadworthy cars. If they cause a fatality, it's 'death by dangerous driving', not manslaughter.

By neglect, perhaps, although there's a limit to how bad it can get between MOTs these days. Few people set out having deliberately removed the brakes from their cars, however.

I think it would be more accurate to say that he deliberately did not fit brakes to the bike, rather than deliberately removing.  Track bikes as standard do not come with them and they have to be retrofitted.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Mr Gav on 24 August 2017, 18:52:23

  Right now the long and short of it all is this; if I perform an illegal act while cycling and someone ends up KSI, I am rightly going to jail.  If I do the same while driving a car and kill a cyclist, I get a slap on the wrist.  I may even get to claim hardship and keep my license.


I think it is hard to compare the instances as you don`t know the trend for the accidents.

Are the cyclists ignoring crossings and such and hitting pedestrians? If this is the general cause of the accident then no wonder it`s over 50% chance for a custodial sentence.

I wouldn`t think that many cyclists are killed by motorists ignoring crossings, more likely to be through a lack of concentration or not leaving enough room while overtaking.

It would need a lot of information to be collected from a large percentage of the accidents before you can form the opinion that cyclists are getting a raw deal from the courts.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 24 August 2017, 19:16:37

  Right now the long and short of it all is this; if I perform an illegal act while cycling and someone ends up KSI, I am rightly going to jail.  If I do the same while driving a car and kill a cyclist, I get a slap on the wrist.  I may even get to claim hardship and keep my license.


I think it is hard to compare the instances as you don`t know the trend for the accidents.

Are the cyclists ignoring crossings and such and hitting pedestrians? If this is the general cause of the accident then no wonder it`s over 50% chance for a custodial sentence.

I wouldn`t think that many cyclists are killed by motorists ignoring crossings, more likely to be through a lack of concentration or not leaving enough room while overtaking.

It would need a lot of information to be collected from a large percentage of the accidents before you can form the opinion that cyclists are getting a raw deal from the courts.

You have a strong point here, Mr. Gav; I believe this reinforces the case for registration and insurance, because no insurance company would pay out for "accidents" resulting from an illegal act, thus adding riding whilst ubinsured to the charges.

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 24 August 2017, 19:21:44

  Right now the long and short of it all is this; if I perform an illegal act while cycling and someone ends up KSI, I am rightly going to jail.  If I do the same while driving a car and kill a cyclist, I get a slap on the wrist.  I may even get to claim hardship and keep my license.


I think it is hard to compare the instances as you don`t know the trend for the accidents.

Are the cyclists ignoring crossings and such and hitting pedestrians? If this is the general cause of the accident then no wonder it`s over 50% chance for a custodial sentence.

I wouldn`t think that many cyclists are killed by motorists ignoring crossings, more likely to be through a lack of concentration or not leaving enough room while overtaking.

It would need a lot of information to be collected from a large percentage of the accidents before you can form the opinion that cyclists are getting a raw deal from the courts.

You have a strong point here, Mr. Gav; I believe this reinforces the case for registration and insurance, because no insurance company would pay out for "accidents" resulting from an illegal act, thus adding riding whilst ubinsured to the charges.

Ron.

In the words of the Virgin Mary, come again?
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: BazaJT on 24 August 2017, 20:28:25
Regardless of blame part of his defence was apparently that no one told him that using a bike with no front brake was a no-no.Surely this comes under "ignorance is no defence"and it was up to him to find out?For him to show no remorse is unforgiveable,as he was at least in part to blame.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: LC0112G on 24 August 2017, 21:51:44
You have a strong point here, Mr. Gav; I believe this reinforces the case for registration and insurance, because no insurance company would pay out for "accidents" resulting from an illegal act, thus adding riding whilst ubinsured to the charges.

Ron.
That's not how motor insurance works, and compulsory cyclist insurance would have to be the same. The insurance co MUST by law pay out to a third party regardless of the state of the driver. However, if it is deemed that the driver was doing something that would invalidate the insurance, then the insurance co sues the driver to recover their money. There would be no "riding whilst uninsured" charge providing the rider had actually paid the premium.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: DrAndyB on 24 August 2017, 22:07:54
I am a regular cyclist myself, and commute about 40 Miles each day, so I do about 8,000 miles a year as I commute all year, winter, summer rain or shine (My Omega does the remaining 1,000 miles for the year, when its dry of course :y - other mileage goes on the Wifes VW  ;D)

I have therefore seen all sorts on the road in my several years now of commuting and I recon 50,000 miles covered :D !  Unfortunately, the poor actions of some give those of us who do care a bad name.

Clearly, respect must be given by all users of the road, and as both a Motorist and Cyclist I would like to think I give the respect and courtesy to both Cyclists and Road users as I sit on both seats (literally !).  Its everybody's responsibility, I would have hoped, to ensure whatever mode of transport they have (Bike or Car) is clearly functional, roadworthy and not a danger to others for clear reasons. 

As a cyclist, I am ashamed of the actions of the knob cyclist who from what I understand has expressed no remorse or bothered to ensure his bike had brakes !  His time in prison may cause him to rethink (but I sadly doubt it).  Hopefully, his new 'Inmate Friends' may show him the error of his ways - He may even get saddle sore from the experience :o

My thoughts are with the family who has lost their Mother and Wife.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: DrAndyB on 24 August 2017, 22:11:20
You have a strong point here, Mr. Gav; I believe this reinforces the case for registration and insurance, because no insurance company would pay out for "accidents" resulting from an illegal act, thus adding riding whilst ubinsured to the charges.

Ron.
That's not how motor insurance works, and compulsory cyclist insurance would have to be the same. The insurance co MUST by law pay out to a third party regardless of the state of the driver. However, if it is deemed that the driver was doing something that would invalidate the insurance, then the insurance co sues the driver to recover their money. There would be no "riding whilst uninsured" charge providing the rider had actually paid the premium.

I would be more than happy for the Car Insurance I pay to also cover me for my Bike use on the road as well, given if I aint in the car I am on the bike so car in the garage not on the Road !
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 24 August 2017, 22:34:24
Thanks, LCO112G, for that clarification; I wasn't aware of what you stated and appreciate the correction.
However, even the way you explain the insurance law would concentrate the mind if the offenders had to cough up from their own resources!

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Rods2 on 24 August 2017, 23:27:20

  Right now the long and short of it all is this; if I perform an illegal act while cycling and someone ends up KSI, I am rightly going to jail.  If I do the same while driving a car and kill a cyclist, I get a slap on the wrist.  I may even get to claim hardship and keep my license.


I think it is hard to compare the instances as you don`t know the trend for the accidents.

Are the cyclists ignoring crossings and such and hitting pedestrians? If this is the general cause of the accident then no wonder it`s over 50% chance for a custodial sentence.

I wouldn`t think that many cyclists are killed by motorists ignoring crossings, more likely to be through a lack of concentration or not leaving enough room while overtaking.

It would need a lot of information to be collected from a large percentage of the accidents before you can form the opinion that cyclists are getting a raw deal from the courts.

I would have been hit 4 times in the last year if I had crossed the road on a crossing with the lights red for motorists and green for me to cross. One of the crossings in Sandhurst is often used by children and parents with prams and toddlers where there is a children's play area. One one occasion a motorcyclist changed down a couple of gears overtook several cars on the approaching zig-zag area, the pedestrian light was green as he went through at speed on the other occasion a motorist was too busy talking to their passenger to notice the crossing lights were red for him! :( :( :(

The other two occasions are on a very dangerous crossing at the Tesco Meadows main roundabout in Blackwater. The speed limit on the roundabout is 30mph and on the crossing but it changes to 60mph about 30m after the crossing. It is normal for cars coming from Farnborough on the dual carriageway to be speeding at 40-60mph (and occasionally some faster) as they accelerate from the traffic lights or don't slow down for the 30mph section. On the second occasion, it was particularly nasty as a lorry that had correctly stopped blocked my sight line to see any approaching traffic in the outside lane and two cars at speed (est 60-80mph) failed to stop. I always now wait for vehicles to stop before using this crossing, but it is only a matter of time before somebody doesn't and is hurt or killed here. :( :( :(

It is actually interesting the only crossing on the Sandhurst bypass where the speed limit is 60mph there is a split pedestrian/cyclist (there is a difference as the green light shows a cycle symbol as well as a pedestrian one and cyclists don't need to dismount when crossing) and to-date I've never had a motorist fail to stop here. :) :) :)

One thing I would like to see much more vigorously inforced is cyclists illegally cycling on pavements. This is a big problem in Sandhurst as there are dual use and pedestrian only sections. The pedestrian only sections are far too narrow for cyclists to be using with some of the f*ckwits just barging their way through, but they do get words from me! >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 25 August 2017, 09:59:23
One thing I would like to see much more vigorously inforced is cyclists illegally cycling on pavements. This is a big problem in Sandhurst as there are dual use and pedestrian only sections. The pedestrian only sections are far too narrow for cyclists to be using with some of the f*ckwits just barging their way through, but they do get words from me! >:( >:( >:(

I'm with you on that.  I dont give them a mouthful though, I drop my shoulder.......
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 25 August 2017, 13:34:52
A few years back, I was in Boscombe, in the pedestrianised area (cycling forbidden) and this young tearaway was giving it large on his mountain bike (I never saw any mountains anywhere in Boscombe) and ripping through the area, not respecting the elderly or children. He happened to stop and leave his bike near a cheap shop, so I popped in and bought a padlock for £1 and attached it to his chainwheel, thereby immobilising his bike.
That'll lern 'im!  ;D 8)

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 25 August 2017, 13:44:52
A few years back, I was in Boscombe, in the pedestrianised area (cycling forbidden) and this young tearaway was giving it large on his mountain bike (I never saw any mountains anywhere in Boscombe) and ripping through the area, not respecting the elderly or children. He happened to stop and leave his bike near a cheap shop, so I popped in and bought a padlock for £1 and attached it to his chainwheel, thereby immobilising his bike.
That'll lern 'im!  ;D 8)

Ron.

 ;D

Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 25 August 2017, 13:53:02
Thanks for the giggle, Sir Tig.
I could have waited for one of the plastic pigs (Community coppers) that abound in that area to apprehend him, as we all know how diligent they are in pursuing these miscreants, but I decided that I couldn't wait until Hell froze over before they acted.....

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 25 August 2017, 14:40:57
A few years back, I was in Boscombe, in the pedestrianised area (cycling forbidden) and this young tearaway was giving it large on his mountain bike (I never saw any mountains anywhere in Boscombe) and ripping through the area, not respecting the elderly or children. He happened to stop and leave his bike near a cheap shop, so I popped in and bought a padlock for £1 and attached it to his chainwheel, thereby immobilising his bike.
That'll lern 'im!  ;D 8)

Ron.

Grey legality, but I would do something like that too ;D

I hope you put a note on the lock so that he knew why he was a winker and why his bike was padlocked? ;)
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: aaronjb on 25 August 2017, 14:44:53
Grey legality, but I would do something like that too ;D

If the cyclist has half a brain he can get the padlock off with a piece of cut-up coke can, anyway.. ah, wait. Based on Ron's description he's probably still there staring at it, isn't he ;D :D
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 25 August 2017, 14:55:15
Grey legality, but I would do something like that too ;D

If the cyclist has half a brain he can get the padlock off with a piece of cut-up coke can, anyway.. ah, wait. Based on Ron's description he's probably still there staring at it, isn't he ;D :D

As part of my continual professional development and a desire to get in to Red-Teaming, I have been learning to pick locks and many of them are very, very easy unless you get a ruddy expensive one.  A basic 4 pin can be done by a beginner like me in a few seconds.  Made me think......
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: aaronjb on 25 August 2017, 15:00:35
Grey legality, but I would do something like that too ;D

If the cyclist has half a brain he can get the padlock off with a piece of cut-up coke can, anyway.. ah, wait. Based on Ron's description he's probably still there staring at it, isn't he ;D :D

As part of my continual professional development and a desire to get in to Red-Teaming, I have been learning to pick locks and many of them are very, very easy unless you get a ruddy expensive one.  A basic 4 pin can be done by a beginner like me in a few seconds.  Made me think......

Yeah - I had a play with lock picking a few years ago when a colleague brought a practice set into the office.. I did not have the knack so gave up any ideas of becoming an international spy ;) But padlocks .. a simple shim opens the cheap ones and probably a good number of expensive ones!

Lots of YouTube videos of people demonstrating how. Do wish I had the 'feel' for proper lock picking, though.

Er, y'know, for research purposes ;D
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 25 August 2017, 15:15:20
No note, Mr. G. because no pen nor paper, but if I had had, I would have advised him to take it to the local nick whereupon they would unlock it - then charge him for cycling in a forbidden area!
How do you use a coke can to defeat a padlock?

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 25 August 2017, 15:19:56
A breaker bar handle works :-X
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: aaronjb on 25 August 2017, 16:28:30
How do you use a coke can to defeat a padlock?

Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEOWb68YumY

Or you can use two spanners, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jJP0CcuJyE

(And many, many other videos on YouTube showing other methods..)
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 25 August 2017, 16:29:37
No note, Mr. G. because no pen nor paper, but if I had had, I would have advised him to take it to the local nick whereupon they would unlock it - then charge him for cycling in a forbidden area!
How do you use a coke can to defeat a padlock?

Ron.

They wouldn't charge him.  Depending on who has responsibility for enforcing that area it could be the council or the police, either way it would be a FPN.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 25 August 2017, 18:31:22
FPN?
If he actually did go to the police station, and they wrer responsible for upholding the law (novel concept for the police?), then surely they would take the appropriate action?  ???

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 25 August 2017, 22:13:44
If a driver takes a car on to an area forbidden for motor vehicles he isn't going to be charged with wrekless driving. He's going to get a FPN unless he did something else to warrant a chargeable offence.

Some areas are not enforced by the police but by the council. It depends on who applied for the order.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 25 August 2017, 23:11:53
Yes, but what does "FPN" stand for, please?

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 25 August 2017, 23:19:11
Fixed Penalty Notice?
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 25 August 2017, 23:24:37
Ta!
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 29 August 2017, 13:24:51
A rational perspective on this issue from the tree-huggers:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2017/aug/29/is-the-uk-really-menaced-by-reckless-cyclists (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2017/aug/29/is-the-uk-really-menaced-by-reckless-cyclists)
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 29 August 2017, 13:53:22
Rational tree huggers. You jest surely ?  :o ;D

P.S. Chris hoy said recently that men over 8 stone shouldn't wear lycra.  Just saying.  :D
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 29 August 2017, 14:22:01
I'd best get eating leaves for a few years then  :D
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Viral_Jim on 18 September 2017, 13:11:03
A bit of thread necromancy, but relevant - Charlie Alliston was sentenced today - 18months.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/charlie-alliston-jailed-cyclist-who-killed-motheroftwo-in-crash-sentenced-to-xxx-years-a3637061.html (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/charlie-alliston-jailed-cyclist-who-killed-motheroftwo-in-crash-sentenced-to-xxx-years-a3637061.html)
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 18 September 2017, 13:28:47
Good.  While it wont bring the lady back, I think it sends the right message although I still think that if it was a motorist his sentence would have been less.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Viral_Jim on 18 September 2017, 13:34:31
I'm inclined to agree. Judging from the beak's closing comments (I didn't follow the case closely enough to be sure) it seems she placed a lot of weight on his attitude and behaviour after the incident. Whether that is right wrong or indifferent is not for me to decide.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 18 September 2017, 14:04:25
18 months not long enough in my opinion, hope the arrogant little shit gets his just desserts .
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 18 September 2017, 14:26:59
18 months when the maximum is 2 years.  Anymore would have been automatic grounds for appeal (which I believe is the case when the max sentence is awarded)

I believe that there is an unofficial movement to blacklist him from the cycling community.  The amount of reputational damage he has done merits a lifetime of the cold shoulder.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: BazaJT on 18 September 2017, 18:49:34
One thing to note is that he was convicted on a Victorian law covering horses/horse drawn carriages etc as current motoring laws didn't/don't cover it and he was found not guilty of manslaughter.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 19 September 2017, 07:48:00
Further proof that the whole RTA needs reform with respect to all road users :y
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: BazaJT on 19 September 2017, 18:51:58
Have to agree Guffer.Problem is of course by the time they've come up with proposals,talked about them,watered them down they would[if it ever came to pass]be another half arsed lash up as usual!
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 19 September 2017, 19:03:03
Never fear, when Boris becomes PM, I will be his Minister for Transport and you will see some changes. There will definitely be an end to the war on motorists (although refocused on cyclists?), and ALL of the taxes gleaned from motorists will be rightfully spent on the roads and other motoring benefits, returning the Road Fund Licence back to its proper meaning.
I would remove all greed cameras and other stealth taxes, replacing them with high visibility policing - real policemen with that old-fashioned thing, discretion.
Taxes collected from motorists will no longer be vired off into other areas and total transparency will be the norm, because my mate, the Chancellor, will make it so!  :y 8)

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 20 September 2017, 09:28:42
....and...3..2..1..you're back in the room.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 20 September 2017, 10:03:09
If you don't have a dream, how you gonna have a dream come true.....?

Ron. (Away with the Fairies).
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 20 September 2017, 10:23:33
In the military we have a saying.  "No plan survives first contact with the enemy".  In civvie street it's first contact with reality.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 20 September 2017, 10:57:30
I was p[roposing a Utopian agenda; without politicians and their self-serving greed, it could (and would) happen. My Manifesto is a dead certain vote winner, and you know it!   :y 8)

Ron. (FIRMLY based in Reality)
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Rods2 on 20 September 2017, 17:52:30
I was p[roposing a Utopian agenda; without politicians and their self-serving greed, it could (and would) happen. My Manifesto is a dead certain vote winner, and you know it!   :y 8)

Ron. (FIRMLY based in Reality)

Nice one Bigron, outlandish enough to fit seamlessly in the next Monster Raving Loonie Party manifesto. :y :y :y Their election HQ used to be based in a Yateley pub not far me. If it still is, at the next general election, when you are standing on your soapbox outside, Guffer, I and other local cyclists can turn up on our bikes and heckle you. :) :) :) ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 20 September 2017, 17:59:21
You won't be allowed bikes, they will all be confiscated and destroyed, and all lycra burned, with or without you in i >:(

Ron.t.....
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: BazaJT on 20 September 2017, 18:56:19
So forget Boris,  it's TB for PM and Bigron for minister for Transport :D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 20 September 2017, 19:44:12
Sense at last!
Yep, I'll accept that, and for your support and confidence in the New World, Baza, you will be allowed to live - but not necessarily in luxury.....

Ron. (Minister for Transport Elect)
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 20 September 2017, 20:22:03
You won't be allowed bikes, they will all be confiscated and destroyed, and all lycra burned, with or without you in i >:(

Ron.t.....

So we'll no longer see stuff like this:

(http://www.bikesnbeers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/women-shorts.jpg)

I'd actually vote for Corbyn (heaven forbid) before that ;D
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 20 September 2017, 20:24:50
No shortage of volunteers to help her in and out of that clingfim suit :-*
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: ronnyd on 20 September 2017, 22:39:34
She makes BigRons manifesto total shite. :D
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Entwood on 20 September 2017, 23:36:50
Looks like progress might be starting ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41337440
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 21 September 2017, 00:38:54
You won't be allowed bikes, they will all be confiscated and destroyed, and all lycra burned, with or without you in i >:(

Ron.t.....

So we'll no longer see stuff like this:

(http://www.bikesnbeers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/women-shorts.jpg)

I'd actually vote for Corbyn (heaven forbid) before that ;D

If ALL cyclists looked like that..... ;D ;D ;D

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 21 September 2017, 09:16:11
Looks like progress might be starting ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41337440

Yup and I can't help fear that whatever is done it will do everyone a dis-service and put cyclists at even more risk than before.  Cycling UK has the right balance, that this gap in law should be looked at as a part of a wider consultation in to the RTA, dangerous road designs and dangerous vehicles.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 24 September 2017, 07:56:16
How is it that driving a truck, half blind, whilst going more than twice the speed limit only dangerous driving? Why is it that society accepts this, which happens frequently,  but goes nuts over something else that occurs between 1-3 times a year?

https://t.co/SYirbJNq7B
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: BazaJT on 24 September 2017, 08:52:31
{For a little balance}Between where I park the car and where I work there is a bridge over the railway lines,this is a footbridge/cycle way.It's just wide enough for two pedestrians to walk side by side without touching the walls or rubbing shoulders.So if I see a cyclist approaching or become aware of one behind me I turn sideways on and step back a little to allow them to pass on their way.Without exception they all acknowledge this by saying thanks/cheers or other such expression of gratitude.The other day I did this and a teenage lad on his way to school passed and on doing so said "thank you and enjoy your day"and I replied in similar vein thinking to myself what a pleasant polite young man. :y
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Bigron on 24 September 2017, 12:43:39
That situation would be eased by having a "Cyclists dismount" sign at either end of the bridge: not that any of them would take any notice of it!

Ron.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: ronnyd on 24 September 2017, 20:24:01
Hats off to Peter Sagan for winning the World Road Race Championship for the third year running, a feat never done before.
Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Gaffers on 26 September 2017, 23:34:30
Oh look.......http://road.cc/content/news/229833-driving-ban-motorist-who-%E2%80%9Cabandoned%E2%80%9D-cyclist-after-knocking-him-bike (http://road.cc/content/news/229833-driving-ban-motorist-who-%E2%80%9Cabandoned%E2%80%9D-cyclist-after-knocking-him-bike)

a firkin driving ban for knocking over and abandoning a cyclist.  How is that different from a hit and run?

Title: Re: one for the Lycra mob
Post by: Kevin Wood on 27 September 2017, 09:34:56
It's almost like the ability to drive a car is seen as a right that comes without any responsibility, these days. No matter how much of a horse's @rse you make of it. I really don't know why our system tolerates drivers who behave like this. Surely buses and trains are ideal for them or even, dare I suggest it, cycles!