Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Bigron]

You may well think that, Lizzie, but if it were economically viable, don't you think that they would already be doing just that?

Ron.

[2boxerdogs]

Got to say we went to London from Peterborough 3 weeks ago on a Virgin train & it was excellent clean comfortable & very punctual £20 return each ,thought that was a fair price.

[Varche]

The railways, once rebuilt and extended with HS2, 3, 4, etc are the future for the continual mass movement of people and goods.

This is a car Forum, so I expect TB and almost everyone to disagree with me.  But what have your experiences been driving long distance in this country now, especially travelling to the North West or North East from the London direction, or crossing the Pennines or travelling from Liverpool and going around Manchester to the East?

During much of the day the motorways involved become giant car parks.  You sit there in the never ending queue thinking why am I doing this?  I also have thought repeatedly the age of long distance motoring is over.  I have watched, since the 1970's, whilst motoring long distances in the UK, a constant build up of traffic no matter how many new motorways have been built, or how they have "improved" them, to bring a repetition of  traffic queues, with the only change that they are getting longer and longer, with travelling times extending beyond acceptability.  Our population is rapidly increasing, with of course a corresponding escalation in the number of new drivers taking their vehicles onto the road.  This cannot continue, and the one way we as humans can transport ourselves en mass, apart from teleporting,  is to use trains.  Thousands of people can be transported very quickly, and that is why so much investment is going into the railways now, at last thank God.

As for freight, why are we putting up with our roads being clogged by long distance lorries?  The loads being carried by them should be moved to the railways.  It makes perfect sense, but of course there is a anti-railways lobby that is getting in the way of all this.

Beeching did what he thought was right for his political masters at the time, but as usual the politicians were only thinking ahead by 5 or 10 years.  If they had had real insight the railways would have been rebuilt in the 1970's, but they were so convinced the railways were old hat and obsolete and the car was the future.  How wrong they were, and how wrong they were in closing down railway routes like the Great Central main line, or the Somerset and Dorset, or the Waverley Route, and then there is more local lines that now would have been vital links in our transport system, but no were closed.  Some of those, like the Polegate Line in Sussex, are now the subject of reviews to rebuild and re-open.  Thank God the heritage lines have been saved and now survive with the ability to give locals an alternative transport system, with many rebuilding their main line connections.

The new age of the railways is with us and that is why the demands on them are doubling, not decreasing, and in fact are proving so successful that sometimes they just cannot cope with the numbers.  That is why billions are being pumped into them to rebuild, extend, and greatly improve the Customer experience.  HS1 has already made a big difference here in the South East; HS2 onwards will only spread that improvement across the Country, with far greater capacity and faster journeys.

Long live the railways!

I agree wholly with you. I find motoring when I visit the Uk a truly miserable experience.  The journey from Leeds to Scarborough takes as long as it did in the seventies and that included the bottle necks of Malton, Tadcaster and York.

Mrs V is in the UK visiting her Aunt in Portpatrick. It was an easy choice between collecting our car and the six hours (on a good day) drive up there using the M69, M6 car park and that awful trucking road from Gretna Green to Stranraer OR fly into Glasgow and hire a car for the 2 and a half hour journey again held up by endless truckers going back to Northern Ireland.

The only bit I disagree with is investing for more trains and lines. Can't see where the money is going to come from to do the job properly - HS2 is just playing at what is needed. We missed the boat unlike the Spanish who have the finest high speed trains and network in the world after China. Probably built with your EU money.  Maybe Corbyn would have the money off the magic money tree! 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Oh Lizzie, you were right to predict disagreement!
The problem with railways, especially for freight, is that their end points are rarely where the goods need to be. I'm afraid I am old enough to remember the depots with their delightful Scammel vehicles, designed to be able to turn as tightly as the horse-drawn carts they replaced. Guess what they did once loaded with the freight from the trains?
Motorways and other major (and minor, really) roads have always been built long after they were desperately needed. If our planners had actually planned, we would have a network better than the Germans and your long distance journeys would be relaxing and pleasurable.

When I implement my policy of concreting them over, I would leave the overhead power supply in place, so that there would always be plentiful charging facilities for the electric vehicles, although the 25kV supply might need to be calmed down a bit!

Lizzie, I don't mind trains - especially steam - but as curiosities for the tourism and leisure industries, not to go anywhere in comfort, conveniently. 

Ron.

Yes, I remember those days, but they were handling loose coal and freight in small quantities. We need to return to the idea of major rail freight head distribution centres that handle bulk freight, nowadays mostly in containers, with major companies being encouraged through normal commercial considerations to build those centres, helped by governmental "incentives". 

Currently, 44 tonne lorries drive up and down our motorways to distribution centres where they are unloaded.  The goods head out again on local delivery lorries to the customer.  Instead the initial 44 tonne lorry haul should be phased out, with rail delivered long distance freight instead, then onto the local delivery fleet. That alone would rid the M20, M25, M4, M1, M5, M6, etc, etc, of lines of 56 mph lorries clogging the system.  Pollution would be dramatically cut , and costs reduced, and with Continental Channel traffic reduced, the chance for illegal immigrants boarding lorries would also be cut.

A win, win situation all round, with even car drivers being given a reprieve by the newly opened up space on the motorways being available, with their pollution and costs cut.

If the railways hooked up directly to the large distribution centre this would be a good idea.

Sadly, they don't.

[TheBoy]

LZ, as I sit on the floor of this (already late) slug with several other people (and a dog) trying to get some comfort for the next hour, I can say I do not feel I've had a remotely good service, or value for money for my £70.

Yesterday I drive be to Kingston - much further - it it was quicker, more comfortable and a damn sight cheaper.

Tuesday is went to Sheffield. Faster, cheaper and far more comfortable

Last Thursday was Ealing. Well, you get the picture.


And that's before the 40-50% subsidy.


HS2 we already know will be a flop, as soon t does nothing useful or unique, or needed. And will never be finished

[TheBoy]

And I'm comparing the heavily subsidised trains with the awful state of the roads, and the self centred morons using them

[TheBoy]

Oh dear, current speed for last 5 mins is 0mph. Did over just announced he can see a stream from f reds, and that's unusual for this section. Sigh.

[Doctor Gollum]

Of course, there is a far easier solutions to road transport congestion...

Derestrict the lorries and call it done

[Lizzie Zoom]

LZ, as I sit on the floor of this (already late) slug with several other people (and a dog) trying to get some comfort for the next hour, I can say I do not feel I've had a remotely good service, or value for money for my £70.

Yesterday I drive be to Kingston - much further - it it was quicker, more comfortable and a damn sight cheaper.

Tuesday is went to Sheffield. Faster, cheaper and far more comfortable

Last Thursday was Ealing. Well, you get the picture.


And that's before the 40-50% subsidy.


HS2 we already know will be a flop, as soon t does nothing useful or unique, or needed. And will never be finished

I really do sympathize with you TB.  I often had all that discomfort in the past.  But, the country IS going through a huge new investment in the railways, with new track, stations and longer trains, which means it will get much better.  HS1 has already given greater mileage capacity in the South East, and this will be even more true once HS2, 3, 4 etc are built. Thousands of miles of additional track, built for high speed running.  It can only get better, and will give a far better alternative of sitting in a traffic jam every time we travel anywhere in the country.  Toilet facilitates (ask any women how important that is!), coffee, tea, alcohol and food available; how attractive that all is when you are on the M6 in a jam stretching 10 miles!

As for freight, yes it MUST be encouraged with future financial and practical planning to go (back!) onto the railways.  Then Varche, I and many tens of thousands of people will not be regularly caught up in endless, and lengthening, jams.

I would also add that history could be repeating itself.  The railways were a big advance to goods, and people, travelling quickly, in comfort (relatively) rather than going by slow moving horse and carts or stage coaches over terrible "roads".  Railways are again going to prove a big advance to goods, and the mass movement of people,  travelling quickly, in comfort (actual) rather than going by very slow moving lorries and cars over highly congested, falling apart, roads.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Rather than spending billions on Victorian technology with HS2 etc we should be investing in MagLev trains! 

Just give the Magic Money Tree another shake, it'll be fine!   

[biggriffin]

freight[/highlight], why are we putting up with our roads being clogged by long distance lorries?  The loads being carried by them should be moved to the railways.  It makes perfect sense, but of course there is a anti-railways lobby that is getting in the way

.

Written by someone who has no idea about road haulage and freight,
How do you get the freight to and from the railhead, how do you get the goods to the customers,how do you get 20,000 boxes of a product to a rdc.

[Lizzie Zoom]

freight[/highlight], why are we putting up with our roads being clogged by long distance lorries?  The loads being carried by them should be moved to the railways.  It makes perfect sense, but of course there is a anti-railways lobby that is getting in the way

.

Written by someone who has no idea about road haulage and freight,
How do you get the freight to and from the railhead, how do you get the goods to the customers,how do you get 20,000 boxes of a product to a rdc.

And this has not been written by someone who has properly read my post #15  when I particularly specified:
"Currently, 44 tonne lorries drive up and down our motorways to distribution centres where they are unloaded.  The goods head out again on local delivery lorries to the customer.  Instead the initial 44 tonne lorry haul should be phased out, with rail delivered long distance freight instead, then onto the local delivery fleet.  That alone would rid the M20, M25, M4, M1, M5, M6, etc, etc, of lines of 56 mph lorries clogging the system.  Pollution would be dramatically cut , and costs reduced, and with Continental Channel traffic reduced, the chance for illegal immigrants boarding lorries would also be cut."

In the same post I also stated:
" We need to return to the idea of major rail freight head distribution centres that handle bulk freight, nowadays mostly in containers, with major companies being encouraged through normal commercial considerations to build those centres, helped by governmental "incentives".  "

As I was in the retail industry for 35 years I also understand goods distribution, having had involvement in central distribution "hubs".  I know what I am suggesting could be done, if there was the political will.

 

[scimmy_man]

Of course, there is a far easier solutions to road transport congestion...

Derestrict the lorries and call it done

the thought of a 70mph truckdriver, watching porn or TV worries me,
they will need better drivers.

[biggriffin]

freight[/highlight], why are we putting up with our roads being clogged by long distance lorries?  The loads being carried by them should be moved to the railways.  It makes perfect sense, but of course there is a anti-railways lobby that is getting in the way

.

Written by someone who has no idea about road haulage and freight,
How do you get the freight to and from the railhead, how do you get the goods to the customers,how do you get 20,000 boxes of a product to a rdc.

And this has not been written by someone who has properly read my post #15  when I particularly specified:
"Currently, 44 tonne lorries drive up and down our motorways to distribution centres where they are unloaded.  The goods head out again on local delivery lorries to the customer.  Instead the initial 44 tonne lorry haul should be phased out, with rail delivered long distance freight instead, then onto the local delivery fleet.  That alone would rid the M20, M25, M4, M1, M5, M6, etc, etc, of lines of 56 mph lorries clogging the system.  Pollution would be dramatically cut , and costs reduced, and with Continental Channel traffic reduced, the chance for illegal immigrants boarding lorries would also be cut."

 

.

I stand by my comments,

The size of the areas needed to accept, the freight in every city would be huge,  or let's try this your average 24hr, 364 day a year rdc has about 500 trucks, per day delivering stock in, it has 150 own trucks delivering 24/7 to store.

Putting trucks on trains works in Europe, because the bridges are higher, to take standard 4.0m high outfits, you can drive on a train in northern Germany and drive off in Italy.
British rolling stock is to narrow, Stobart and Tesco's tried failed. Containers by rail does work, the reason not widely used, is strikes, and capacity, o and speed.

You can quote from google, or any other reference book, but in the real world it doesn't work.If it did we would be using it.

[Sir Tigger KC]

We are too small a country geographically for rail distribution to be efficient Lizzie.  I used to drive for Sainsbury's and you can think of their and other big supermarkets distribution network like a spiders web, with lorries picking up and dropping off all over the place. 

So if they needed a container of goods to go from Bristol to Manchester, first a truck would have to take it from Sainsbury's RDC to the nearest rail yard, where it would probably sit around for a few hours before being loaded onto the train.  The train would probably take a day to load! Then the train would probably take 5 or 6 hours to get to Manchester as freight trains are slower and passenger trains have priority.  It would then sit in the yard at Manchester for a few hours before it was unloaded and loaded onto the truck that would take it to Sainsbury's nearest RDC.  I think realistically you would have to allow 48 hours for that single container to get from Sainsbury's Bristol Depot to their Manchester depot. 

Meanwhile a truck has done the round trip from Bristol to Manchester in about 12 hours which includes getting stuck in jams, drivers break and waiting to get unloaded and reloaded with a new load to take back to Bristol from Manchester.