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Author Topic: Catalonia  (Read 773 times)

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Sir Tigger QC

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Catalonia
« on: 28 September 2017, 18:54:51 »

Catalonia in the North East of Spain is due to have a referendum on independence on Sunday.  The Spanish government and Spain's Constitutional Court have declared the vote illegal and seem to be doing their utmost to prevent the referendum from going ahead. Websites have been shut down, computers, leaflets etc have been seized and 4000 police have been drafted in from other parts of Spain to shut down polling centres.

Can you imagine if the UK government had sent 4000 English, Welsh and NIrish police into Scotland to shut down the referendum there?  :o  ::)

The Catalonian government have promised that they will declare independence from Spain within 48 hours if the people vote for independence!  Sound familiar?  ::)

It's an interesting situation with possible dire consquences given the Spanish governments apparent heavy handedness.  :-\  I'm sure that our Spanish Correspondent will provide an insight and correct anything I've got wrong!  :y

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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #1 on: 28 September 2017, 19:25:14 »

The one BIG difference is that Scotland obtained permission from Westminster to hold a referendum, obviously Catalonia has not asked central government for it’s blessing.
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #2 on: 28 September 2017, 19:29:39 »

He is taking his/her time in getting to the keyboard!
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #3 on: 28 September 2017, 19:37:51 »

The one BIG difference is that Scotland obtained permission from Westminster to hold a referendum, obviously Catalonia has not asked central government for it’s blessing.

I imagine wee Jimmy Krankie hates having to ask permission like a naughty six year old. ;D
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Varche

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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #4 on: 28 September 2017, 19:44:45 »

This Spanish newspaper site (in English) has some good articles

https://elpais.com/elpais/inenglish.html.

Interesting how the Russians are meddling. ::)

Rajoy will be on tenterhooks over it all. EU don't want it as it will only encourage other parts of countries to do the same. Pays Basque would be next ( imagine the issues with part of France and part of Spain wanting independence. :o)

Unlike Scotland , Catalonia and the Basque Country are real revenue generators. That is why in poor areas like Andalucia you are hard pressed to find anyone who thinks the vote is a good idea.

Polls show it to be a bit like the Brexit result i.e. fairly split. Problem is that IF the vote goes ahead I suspect the result will be a resounding vote for independence.  I just hope there isn't bloodshed.

NB on a lighter note there is also a story on that site of a woman who has been trying for seven years to prove she isn't dead! Only in Spain could you have such bureaucracy ;D ;D  https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/25/inenglish/1506343421_128552.html
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Sir Tigger QC

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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #5 on: 28 September 2017, 20:56:00 »

The one BIG difference is that Scotland obtained permission from Westminster to hold a referendum, obviously Catalonia has not asked central government for it’s blessing.

I don't know whether Catalonia asked Madrid or not to be honest.  If they did it seems likely the Spanish Government would have refused permission and Catalonia is going ahead anyway.  :-\

Thanks for the El Pais link Varche I'll have a look through that.  :y 
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #6 on: 29 September 2017, 00:08:15 »

iirc They did ask for permission and were robustly refused with a long diatribe on what would happen if they tried. :o :o :o
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #7 on: 02 October 2017, 09:31:46 »

So what now?

Interesting that there has been collective omerta from the Eu heads of state re condemning police violence. There again break away states don't exactly fit into the superstate thinking. ;D Corsica, sardinia, Pays Basque ( part of France and Spain!), Wallonia and so on. There is a big list waiting on the sidelines.

Rajoy and the Spanish government have a very difficult 48 hours ahead. 
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #8 on: 02 October 2017, 09:42:55 »

I fully expect Boris to recognise the Republic of Catalonia and tell the world that the UK will be starting trade talks ASAP!  ::)  ;D
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #9 on: 02 October 2017, 13:42:30 »

The response to this from the EU commission this morning was quite chilling to me.
They declared that the referendum was not legal and they trust the Spanish PM to manage the situation.
This reminded me very much of the kind of responses we used to hear from the Soviet Politburo, when people in Poland and elsewhere were protesting to try and re establish their nation states and were being attacked by their own police forces etc.
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #10 on: 02 October 2017, 13:53:36 »

According to the Vice President of the European Parliament (Ramón Luis Valcárcel):
"Today we have witnessed a nationalistic propaganda act, undemocratic; a coup attempt against Spanish democracy, and so a coup against Europe"
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #11 on: 02 October 2017, 15:00:31 »

The European dream will survive if you like it or not , so much for "the will of the people"
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #12 on: 02 October 2017, 18:17:10 »

Well you can't have regions of countrys willy nilly deciding they can make there own laws.  As that then leads to chaos and anarchy. Where would you stop?

Well done to the Spanish Authorities.

:P
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #13 on: 02 October 2017, 18:18:49 »

I think that we will see more of this sort of thing across the EU as the relentless march of integration accelerates once the chief obstacle to EU integration (ie the UK) is out of the way.  ::)

As people see more powers transferred from their national capitals to Brussels and the EU starts to levy direct taxes, (which inevitably they will) they will want to cut out the middleman and try and regain a sense of regional identity, as most European countries are a union of smaller states anyway.  ;)
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Varche

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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #14 on: 02 October 2017, 18:23:06 »

 Not my words but this does make sense IMO:

The EU is in self-preservation mode. Their nightmare scenario goes.

Catalonia becomes independent and takes its revenue with it.

Rump Spain starts running an increasingly large deficit and starts getting into financial trouble.

A major Euro nations gets into financial trouble - a failing Spain is big enough to break the Euro.

A broken Euro would be the financial crisis to end all financial crisis's.

In many ways it's the law of unintended consequences at work. In trying to create a European superstate, the EU has:

Weakened the national identity of the nation states that make up the EU.

Given the potential for an newly independent state to join the single market - albeit after a minimum of five years to tick all the required boxes.

Chickens are slowly heading home to roost.
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #15 on: 02 October 2017, 18:32:32 »

Not my words but this does make sense IMO:

The EU is in self-preservation mode. Their nightmare scenario goes.

Catalonia becomes independent and takes its revenue with it.

Rump Spain starts running an increasingly large deficit and starts getting into financial trouble.

A major Euro nations gets into financial trouble - a failing Spain is big enough to break the Euro.

A broken Euro would be the financial crisis to end all financial crises.

In many ways it's the law of unintended consequences at work. In trying to create a European superstate, the EU has:

Weakened the national identity of the nation states that make up the EU.

Given the potential for an newly independent state to join the single market - albeit after a minimum of five years to tick all the required boxes.

Chickens are slowly heading home to roost.
__________________

Agreed, so we are getting out just in time. :y
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #16 on: 02 October 2017, 18:43:24 »

Damn, if I'd voted 'Remain' it might have tipped the balance and I could have become the Dear Leader of Wessex!  8)  ;D
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #17 on: 02 October 2017, 20:30:03 »

Kim Jong Tigg :D ::)
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #18 on: 02 October 2017, 20:53:07 »

The one BIG difference is that Scotland obtained permission from Westminster to hold a referendum, obviously Catalonia has not asked central government for it’s blessing.

How does your International Law interpretation conform to the UN Charter rules on self-determination that Spain as a member has agreed to? ;D ;D ;D

"The right of people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter's norms.[1][2] It states that a people, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #19 on: 04 October 2017, 09:17:10 »

The government of Catalonia has said that it will declare independence from Spain 'in days'.

The EU has said that this is an internal matter for the Spanish government which I think is right.  I am however waiting for Junker or Tusk to reaffirm that an independent Catalonia will not be able to stay in the EU and will have to reapply as a new member.  ::)
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #20 on: 04 October 2017, 09:54:10 »

Very good speech last night by the King.

I had to smile at placards saying EU where are you? The EU is hardly going to come running to support break away nations and condemn police violence. That doesn't fit the script. IF they became independent then they would have to apply for EU membership, fulfil the criteria and get 27 member state approval. I cannot see a situation where Spain would approve.

The whole scenario is very divisive and one wrong step could turn things nasty. Thankfully the Spanish interior minister saw sense on Sunday and changed the plans to occupy the voting stations till they closed and then to seize the ballot boxes.

No scene showed the depth of feelings and the rift between Catalunia and rest of Spain more than the shots on Tv this morning of protesters chanting go home to the police outside their hotel and the police inside chanting nationalistic stuff in response.

The next few days are crucial.
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #21 on: 04 October 2017, 10:10:01 »

Very good speech last night by the King.

I had to smile at placards saying EU where are you? The EU is hardly going to come running to support break away nations and condemn police violence. That doesn't fit the script. IF they became independent then they would have to apply for EU membership, fulfil the criteria and get 27 member state approval. I cannot see a situation where Spain would approve.

The whole scenario is very divisive and one wrong step could turn things nasty. Thankfully the Spanish interior minister saw sense on Sunday and changed the plans to occupy the voting stations till they closed and then to seize the ballot boxes.

No scene showed the depth of feelings and the rift between Catalunia and rest of Spain more than the shots on Tv this morning of protesters chanting go home to the police outside their hotel and the police inside chanting nationalistic stuff in response.

The next few days are crucial.
Its a difficult one, as you know the history of Catalonia goes back many hundreds of years, and wasn't helped by Royal Marriages and that Franko chap, maybe (if) they could push for a reconsidered request for an Independent Referendum then they would gain more support from outside of Spain, but doesnt always happen that way or gets blocked by political or Government rulings.

Worth remembering though the start of Solidarity in Poland back in the 1980's under the Russian Communism, it didn't exactly start with a legal Referendum, it was powered by the People, which in turn managed the result they set out to achieve.
« Last Edit: 04 October 2017, 10:15:42 by zirk »
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #22 on: 04 October 2017, 13:24:18 »

The push for liberation from a blanket of Communism by a previously established and independent country is one thing... but Catalan independence, and its pursuit by any means could easily start a new civil war :'(
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #23 on: 04 October 2017, 14:05:27 »

The push for liberation from a blanket of Communism by a previously established and independent country is one thing... but Catalan independence, and its pursuit by any means could easily start a new civil war :'(

A good civil war has to be good for the economy, though.

As long as you're the one selling the weapons..
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #24 on: 04 October 2017, 15:13:04 »

IF they became independent then they would have to apply for EU membership, fulfil the criteria and get 27 member state approval. I cannot see a situation where Spain would approve.


This is what everyone assumes and what the EU has said in the past, but Brussels has gone very quiet on this which could have repercussions across Europe if Catalonia is allowed to stay in the EU in the event of independence.  :-\
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Varche

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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #25 on: 04 October 2017, 16:07:02 »

Understandably.

They would have to allow the break away states to rejoin to keep the head count up and money rolling in. All the possible break away "areas" with the exception of Sicily are both in the Eurozone and have healthy economies. Even so it would increase the admin overhead and make decision making even more difficult. Imagine having to split the budget in/out and liabilities! across rest of Spain and Catalunia. Be a bit like Brexit and we know how speedily that is going.
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #26 on: 04 October 2017, 23:07:32 »

Just seen on the news: Blair could be appointed to mediate! Which might actually work, when both sides unite to tell the useless deluded tosser to opps off and mind his own business.
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #27 on: 04 October 2017, 23:38:59 »

Just seen on the news: Blair could be appointed to mediate! Which might actually work, when both sides unite to tell the useless deluded tosser to opps off and mind his own business.
Appointed by whom? Himself presumably... onerous Onanist.

Hopefully they will carve him into a paella :D
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #28 on: 04 October 2017, 23:42:44 »

Just seen on the news: Blair could be appointed to mediate!

Oh dear god....  ::)
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #29 on: 04 October 2017, 23:53:48 »

Well, he,s certainly sorted the Middle East problem----- NOT :D
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #30 on: 05 October 2017, 00:38:47 »

Well, he,s certainly sorted the Middle East problem----- NOT :D
Well, he lives upto his role... he idiot do anything worthwhile... idiot by name, idiot by nature ::)
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #31 on: 05 October 2017, 14:55:37 »

Interesting article in the telegraph the other day about banking rules and openess in Andorra ending this December.

There's more to this independence milarkey than meets the eye. We are all watching the right hand and talking about illegal referendums and constitutions and the heavy-handed approach by the Guardia — Mossos were restrained to the point of inaction which is why the Head of Mossos may be charged with dereliction of duty or some such nonsense — but no one is talking about what the left hand is doing. It's about covering up huge corruption and keeping politicians and their cronies out of prison.

By the same token, an independent Catalunia wouldn't be crying out for EU membership and the resulting financial transparency. having said that I posted a week or so back about the ERES scandal where 3/4 billion EU euros were sytemically syphoned off. Not a cent has been recovered nor a single person cahrged after 5 years of investigation. The Eu should have asked for our money back - that might have focussed minds.

Perhaps the Catalans are being used?
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #32 on: 05 October 2017, 23:13:05 »

Perhaps. Anything is possible where European politics are concerned.
A few days ago, the EU parliament voted through a motion to not hold any trade talks with the UK until sufficient progress on other issues has been made.
Its bad enough (treasonous imo) that British Labour, Plaid and green MEP,s voted with the others against their own country, but two Tory MEP,s also voted against their own country, government and party.
You couldn't make it up !
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #33 on: 06 October 2017, 17:00:49 »

Perhaps. Anything is possible where European politics are concerned.
A few days ago, the EU parliament voted through a motion to not hold any trade talks with the UK until sufficient progress on other issues has been made.
Its bad enough (treasonous imo) that British Labour, Plaid and green MEP,s voted with the others against their own country, but two Tory MEP,s also voted against their own country, government and party.
You couldn't make it up !

Specifically, Eurocrat pensions, so vested interests perhaps!!! >:( >:( >:(
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Varche

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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #34 on: 10 October 2017, 18:57:10 »

Can kicked down the road a little.

i would have loved to have been a fly on the wall before the Speech tonight. Who rang him and what was said.?
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #35 on: 10 October 2017, 19:46:45 »

Slightly different subject Varche, but I thought of you today while wandering around the local Homebase garden centre.
They had Olive trees for sale, around 7ft tall - for £500 each !!
Might be worth bringing one back each time you visit !  :o
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #36 on: 11 October 2017, 14:28:15 »

Thought of it times. A 3 foot high young tree is 1.20 euro in our local nursery. Each one actually has a small log at its base. the roots sprout out of the log part.

We have taken two trees back to the Uk. Both are doing well and one has borne fruit the last two years. Needs a lot of prep though before you can actually eat an olive.

Won't be many years before you can grow bananas in your Uk garden and visit new deserts here for your holidays. :o
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #37 on: 11 October 2017, 14:57:53 »

Perhaps. Anything is possible where European politics are concerned.
A few days ago, the EU parliament voted through a motion to not hold any trade talks with the UK until sufficient progress on other issues has been made.
Its bad enough (treasonous imo) that British Labour, Plaid and green MEP,s voted with the others against their own country, but two Tory MEP,s also voted against their own country, government and party.
You couldn't make it up !

One of those voted as per his constituency....so I have zero issues with that (Ken Clarke for Rushcliffe)
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Migv6

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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #38 on: 11 October 2017, 16:28:50 »

It wasnt Old Ken. He isn't an MEP.  ;)...............I actually doubt even he would vote with 27 other countries to prevent the UK being allowed to talk about future trade. Although he did once say that he looked forward to the day that Westminster is no more than a glorified council chamber.
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #39 on: 11 October 2017, 16:51:44 »

Perhaps. Anything is possible where European politics are concerned.
A few days ago, the EU parliament voted through a motion to not hold any trade talks with the UK until sufficient progress on other issues has been made.

Its bad enough (treasonous imo) that British Labour, Plaid and green MEP,s voted with the others against their own country, but two Tory MEP,s also voted against their own country, government and party.
You couldn't make it up !

And herein lies the problem.

It is the EU that dictates the speed and direction of negotiations. It is they that set the agenda. It is they that seem to have the whip hand. :-\



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Kevin Wood

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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #40 on: 11 October 2017, 17:22:00 »

And herein lies the problem.

It is the EU that dictates the speed and direction of negotiations. It is they that set the agenda. It is they that seem to have the whip hand. :-\

Then it's not a negotiation at all. It's a bit like me coming to buy a nice Jaguar from your good self and for you to say: "well, I filled it up with petrol last week and there's still half a tank in it. Before we talk about the car, I want £500 for the petrol that's in it." There may well be a good deal to be had, but only an idiot would agree in advance to buying an overpriced half tank of petrol that's inseparable from a car that he may or may not want to drive away in once the deal is done.

Negotiation is about lumping together items of interest and then striking a deal for the package, not stating your (ridiculous) demands then administering a gallic shrug in response when they are countered. ::)
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #41 on: 11 October 2017, 18:31:26 »

An excellent comparison Kevin.  :y
I suspect the EU have one of two objectives.
1. Make it completely impossible for the UK to do a deal, knowing that the mindset has already been established here, that no deal is a fate worse than death, so the usual suspects will be screaming from the rooftops that we cant leave at all, and the incompetent Govt. must stand down immediately.
2. Be as obstructive as possible, until the very last minute, and then do a deal.

The problem they have is that they don't want us to have a deal which is anywhere near comparable to being a member, but if we just leave and revert to WTO rules, in reality, that is nothing like the end of the world scenario, we are being told it is, at the present time.
They may be kicking their heels and dragging it out, hoping some unforeseen events, drop the answer to the problem into their lap ?  :-\
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #42 on: 11 October 2017, 18:44:32 »

An excellent comparison Kevin.  :y
I suspect the EU have one of two objectives.
1. Make it completely impossible for the UK to do a deal, knowing that the mindset has already been established here, that no deal is a fate worse than death, so the usual suspects will be screaming from the rooftops that we cant leave at all, and the incompetent Govt. must stand down immediately.
2. Be as obstructive as possible, until the very last minute, and then do a deal.

The problem they have is that they don't want us to have a deal which is anywhere near comparable to being a member, but if we just leave and revert to WTO rules, in reality, that is nothing like the end of the world scenario, we are being told it is, at the present time.
They may be kicking their heels and dragging it out, hoping some unforeseen events, drop the answer to the problem into their lap ?  :-\

You 'may' be right. Impossible to tell unless the scenario actually plays out.

Paying billions to the EU and then still being under the control of the ECJ from 2019 is not what people voted for. :(
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #43 on: 11 October 2017, 18:53:03 »

You know that and I know that, but the species who inhabit the Westminster bubble only know what will or wont prolong OR ADVANCE their careers.
Afaik, the EU (which currently includes us) trades with most of the world under WTO rules, because they don't currently have trade agreements with them. I'm willing to be corrected on this, but that's how I understand it.  :-\
If that is the case, where is the big argument against doing the same thing after we leave ? Bearing in mind, we have a big trade deficit in our favour in trade with the EU.
We also have the much neglected Commonwealth and the wider world to deal with.
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #44 on: 11 October 2017, 19:00:30 »

Meanwhile, it looks like the pen pushers in Brussels might actually all but outlaw motorsport in the EU. ;D
Of course, at some point Angela will make a phone call and inform them that this stuff is pretty important to Mercedes BMW, VAG as well as almost every other manufacturer in Europe. ::)
https://www.autosport.com/national/news/132349/insurance-law-could-close-motorsport-in-eu

D1ckheads.   :D
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #45 on: 11 October 2017, 20:18:21 »

To me, the main reason Brussels are being so negative to our "negotiations", is that if we get too good a deal, (as far as they are concerned), then other nations will likely rush to quit their un-democratic little club.
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #46 on: 11 October 2017, 23:07:15 »

You know that and I know that, but the species who inhabit the Westminster bubble only know what will or wont prolong OR ADVANCE their careers.
Afaik, the EU (which currently includes us) trades with most of the world under WTO rules, because they don't currently have trade agreements with them. I'm willing to be corrected on this, but that's how I understand it.  :-\
If that is the case, where is the big argument against doing the same thing after we leave ? Bearing in mind, we have a big trade deficit in our favour in trade with the EU.
We also have the much neglected Commonwealth and the wider world to deal with.

Interesting article on bbc websiteabout WTO members objecting pre emptively on the EU/britain post leaving proposal re allocation of quotas. Sadlyit isthevery countries we are hoping to have deals with! Cant post the link at moment.

Meanwhile back on Catalonia. The hot story is that Madrid intends putting in an own man to run Catalonia and remove Puidgemont.atthe moment we are all waining for Puidgemont to confirm the statis of independence! By Monday.
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #47 on: 11 October 2017, 23:25:51 »

Sounds like the most inflammatory course of action they could possibly dream up.  :o
Imagine Theresa May abolishing the Scottish assembly and sending Jacob Rees- Mogg up there to run things for her.  ;D
I'm sure he would do a good job though and they would grow to like him - eventually.  :D
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Re: Catalonia
« Reply #48 on: 11 October 2017, 23:46:50 »

Well precedents have been set for such actions in the past in loads of countries. Of course now we are supposed to be democratic.

The bottom line with this Catalunian referendum is it wasnt legal in the first place and secondly it wasnt carried out with due diligence etc. E.g. did people vote more than once.

It can only end one way.lets hope there are no fatalities.
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