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Author Topic: Self levelling suspension woes  (Read 698 times)

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Entwood

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Self levelling suspension woes
« on: 29 September 2017, 15:22:45 »

Hitched the tin tent up to the  car and the self levelling has failed to function, pump does not run ... and nowt so far seems to work....

Fuse checked ... OK ... attempts to check voltage input  at the pump .... fail so far ... :(

Am I right that the rear OFFSIDE suspension arm is the correct one for the suspension ?? near side being headlights ??

With that undone and  at its "lowest" position still no 12v at the pump, just around .5 volt on the 2 centre pins which is a weird figure, outer pins are 0 volts.

Next is, according to Haynes .. relay K19 .. but just where is that !! no indication in the book where to look !

Any one with any ideas please shout out .....
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #1 on: 29 September 2017, 15:29:32 »

K19, its a small one to the left of the diagnostic connector in the fuse box under the steering wheel.
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #2 on: 29 September 2017, 15:41:46 »

K19, its a small one to the left of the diagnostic connector in the fuse box under the steering wheel.

ta .. 2 little black ones swapped over .. no difference, and finger on both feels the relay "click" but still only .5 volt at the pump ... :(
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #3 on: 29 September 2017, 15:48:36 »

With the sensor unplugged at the rear I get 0 volts on 3 lines and 0.3 volts on one .....

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Entwood

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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #4 on: 29 September 2017, 16:19:55 »

trying to read Haynes wiring diagram page 12.45... and I'm pretty poor at this side of things ... :(

track 548 ... power direct from fuse 27 to track 541 and 543

track 541 branch to M22 (pump)  contact C should be 12 volt ??? so possible bad connection a junction X1 (wherever that is ) ??

track 543 through relay K19 also then through X1 to  M22 (pump) contact B.  K19 controlled by K21 (sensor) If K19 pulls in 12 volt should get to contact B also via X1

So if X1 is faulty it affects all parts of the circuit ...

Where is X1 ??

and have I read it correctly ... somehow I doubt it ...   :(
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #5 on: 29 September 2017, 16:45:27 »

perhaps I'm a bigger numpty than I thought ... previous voltages where all measured pin - body earth ....

just tried measuring directly across the pins and I now get, engine running voltages ...

Brown - Red  13.4 volts

Black - White   8.95 volts,

move the sensor to the opposite end so it "thinks" its up to height ...

Brown - Red  13.4 volts

Black - White   0 volts

so .. if 8.95 is the "correct" voltage to pull the pump on ... then the pump is knacked... fair do's

BUT is 8.95 volts the right value from the sensor to pull it in ???

Contact A goes back into the sensor .. the return for the solenoid, would this be enough to give a voltage drop of 4 volts ??

at least I have power so a replacement pump and sensor asked for in parts section ...
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #6 on: 03 October 2017, 14:38:50 »

Hi .. anyone know the answer to the required voltage question?? Replacement used pump has arrived but it doesn't work either .. 14 volts on the pump lines 9.5 volts on the "signal" line with the sensor in the "I'm fully down" position, and the pump does nowt ... :(

Now stumped.... :(
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #7 on: 03 October 2017, 14:44:08 »

Try the sensor arm fully up :y
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #8 on: 03 October 2017, 14:56:32 »

Try the sensor arm fully up :y

It is as high as it goes .. telling the system the suspension is as low as it could be .....  :( (put at the other extreme there is no signal voltage at the plug ...)
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #9 on: 03 October 2017, 14:58:35 »

Engine running?
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #10 on: 03 October 2017, 15:16:59 »

Engine running?

yup, without the engine running the voltage is zero ... relay appears to be pulling in as thats when the voltage starts to show
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #11 on: 03 October 2017, 16:32:20 »

Further to all the 'dangle berries' above ... even though the "old" and "new" pumps still don't work ... mate across the road has been to offer help and looking at Haynes he saw I was testing across the wrong pins ...  so we've now done it correctly and

Engine running, sensor at its highest point (equals suspension at its lowest) pins A & C 14 volts, Pins B & D   14 volts

Engine running, sensor at its lowest point, (equals suspension at its highest) pins A & C  0 volts, Pins B & D   14 Volts

and that is using 2 different sensors

any one any ideas how to test the pump "off the car" ??
« Last Edit: 03 October 2017, 16:44:24 by Entwood »
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #12 on: 03 October 2017, 18:52:19 »

I've 2 good sensors here if the shenanigans persist
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #13 on: 03 October 2017, 19:30:55 »

I've 2 good sensors here if the shenanigans persist

Yes please ... I can't believe gstylebaby's is faulty especially as he's convinced it is good, so the only other major bit is the sensor. The one I have in the "box" is not marked as "good" so might well be the faulty one I replaced some 5 years ago and never threw out.

So PM me a price, including postage and how you want paying and I'll have them both, at least I'll then have a "known good" spare I can label appropriately...
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #14 on: 03 October 2017, 19:34:57 »

If you send 12v direct to the pump does it work ?
If you bypass the sensor and send 12v from the supply to the sensor to the pump does it work ?
If yes to both then sensor is faultyI would think.
If no to one or both, fault lies elsewhere.  :-\
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #15 on: 03 October 2017, 19:55:14 »

If you send 12v direct to the pump does it work ?
If you bypass the sensor and send 12v from the supply to the sensor to the pump does it work ?
If yes to both then sensor is faultyI would think.
If no to one or both, fault lies elsewhere.  :-\

If you send 12v direct to the pump does it work ?  - which pins, there are 4 ...  two for the pump, 2 for a "solenoid" .. does the solenoid turn the pump on or off ??

If you bypass the sensor and send 12v from the supply to the sensor to the pump does it work ?  Which wires, there are 8 pins on the plug to the sensor.

I'm afraid I find reading the tracks on Haynes diagrams very confusing .. not at all like a "proper" wiring diagram to me .. :(

Willing to try anything .. but need help on this sort of diagnostic !
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #16 on: 03 October 2017, 22:40:37 »

The Haynes diagram is basically a small print German version of the factory diagrams...
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #17 on: 03 October 2017, 23:11:21 »

...ll.

I'm afraid I find reading the tracks on Haynes diagrams very confusing .. not at all like a "proper" wiring diagram to me .. :(
 .....

Better than the wiring diags in the Astra G manuals  ..... they try to show them as an actual schematic which just don't work.
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #18 on: 04 October 2017, 12:39:34 »

There is a plug break forward of the fuel tank, above the exhaust at least on my pre FL estate there was.
Mine had corroded then got hot and melted a bit so the pump was doing weird things.
Not sure where else there were plug breaks as that was the first one I found and it was the issue so I didn't look further.
Al
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #19 on: 04 October 2017, 13:33:21 »

Mate has had an auto electrician look at the diagrams and he says ..

1)  Solenoid is there to RELEASE air when the ride is too high .. ie  after removing a heavy load the car will sit high, this lets air out to drop the suspension, controlled by sensor

2) Pump is there to pump up suspension and is controlled by sensor (which we knew).

Apply 12V across pins A & C (A -ve C +ve) should give a "click" from the solenoid

Apply 12V across pins B & D (B +ve D -ve) pump should run.

Done this to the pump gstylebaby supplied and it works exactly like that so is NOT faulty. Done to the original pump and it does exactly the same, so it ain't faulty either...  :(

So, its either the sensor or a break in the wires he thinks ....

To get me mobile I have wired a 12 volt supply through a switch to pins B & D and can now switch the pump on and off manually. I'm using a length of cane to "measure" the rear wheel arch height when loaded and "adjusted" .. if it goes too high when "unloaded" I pop off the airline to deflate the system then pump back up.

Hate bodges like that but until I can get hold of a sensor, and pm's have been sent to those who have offered, it gets me mobile... :(
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #20 on: 04 October 2017, 18:25:41 »

Post 1998 sensors are diagnosable, does your diags gear cover that, or just engine?
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #21 on: 04 October 2017, 19:27:16 »

Post 1998 sensors are diagnosable, does your diags gear cover that, or just engine?

Engine only for the plug in one ... the "unmentionable" one I've not tried ..might do that tomorrow ... seeing as you mention it ... (hadn't even thought of that approach!!)
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #22 on: 04 October 2017, 19:38:37 »

Post 1998 sensors are diagnosable, does your diags gear cover that, or just engine?

Are they diagnosable for the suspension? I know they feed into the abs/tc with some extra wires but I thought it was still just a direct line into the pump side of things. Though if it sees the arm moving for the abs side of things I suppose that means it would be a wire/connection fault somewhere or am I wrong? I wired a later switch into my pre FL a few years back as it was all I could find at the time but I can't remember exactly what the difference was.
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #23 on: 04 October 2017, 19:42:57 »

Post 1998 sensors are diagnosable, does your diags gear cover that, or just engine?

Are they diagnosable for the suspension? I know they feed into the abs/tc with some extra wires but I thought it was still just a direct line into the pump side of things. Though if it sees the arm moving for the abs side of things I suppose that means it would be a wire/connection fault somewhere or am I wrong? I wired a later switch into my pre FL a few years back as it was all I could find at the time but I can't remember exactly what the difference was.
Post 98 ones, the "sensor" is actually an ECU, with diags and calibration functionality.

Early ones are not diagnosable, no idea if intelligent or effectively a couple of switches.
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #24 on: 04 October 2017, 23:46:45 »

It should function correctly when stationary, but it does have a speed signal input...

Are you testing on the car or on the bench?
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #25 on: 05 October 2017, 09:53:03 »

Post 1998 sensors are diagnosable, does your diags gear cover that, or just engine?

Using the "unmentionable" software... error codes are :

6 - Car level Control Valve Low Input or Circuit Open
10 - Intake Accumulator Malfunction
11 - Car Level Control Accumulator Malfunction

That's all I get, that's with everything connected, engine running

Any ideas what it means ??  :)
« Last Edit: 05 October 2017, 10:00:47 by Entwood »
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #26 on: 05 October 2017, 09:54:04 »

It should function correctly when stationary, but it does have a speed signal input...

Are you testing on the car or on the bench?

Pump on car don't work, pump on bench does work ... apparently .. see post #19

No idea how to test the sensor on the bench .. :(
« Last Edit: 05 October 2017, 09:56:27 by Entwood »
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #27 on: 05 October 2017, 10:04:00 »

Sounds like the sensor on the rear is faulty, but I think it also runs in conjunction with the sensor on the front NS arm too....?

I had a very similar problem with mine when I had it, I replaced the front sensor with a known good working sensor, replaced the pump as it was noisy and it magically all worked in unison... BUT I was getting the HI-LO VIS FUNCTION on the dash display....

I ended up by removing the rear air rams, disconnecting the pump and replaceing the air rams with Bilstein shocks and Apex springs all round.... it could still tow our tintent, but also didnt wallow around corners like a bloated whale....
« Last Edit: 05 October 2017, 10:05:59 by minifreek »
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #28 on: 05 October 2017, 10:23:15 »

Sounds like the sensor on the rear is faulty, but I think it also runs in conjunction with the sensor on the front NS arm too....?

I had a very similar problem with mine when I had it, I replaced the front sensor with a known good working sensor, replaced the pump as it was noisy and it magically all worked in unison... BUT I was getting the HI-LO VIS FUNCTION on the dash display....

I ended up by removing the rear air rams, disconnecting the pump and replaceing the air rams with Bilstein shocks and Apex springs all round.... it could still tow our tintent, but also didnt wallow around corners like a bloated whale....

That's all to do with headlight levelling system, totally separate AFAIK . and that is working fine .. headlight sensors are competely different and on front/rear nearside .. suspension rear offside only ...  unless of course I've got it wrong ... again .. :(
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #29 on: 05 October 2017, 11:50:36 »

Spot on Nige :y headlight levelling has it's own ecu above the levelling pump, and like you say totally separate  ;)

Can't remember which side the loom runs, suspect lhs as that's where most of it is. Test the loom all the way through from sensor plug to pump. If no continuity then you've found the issue :y
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #30 on: 05 October 2017, 11:58:53 »

Spot on Nige :y headlight levelling has it's own ecu above the levelling pump, and like you say totally separate  ;)

Can't remember which side the loom runs, suspect lhs as that's where most of it is. Test the loom all the way through from sensor plug to pump. If no continuity then you've found the issue :y

sounds easy .. BUT .. eight pins on the sensor, four on the plug, so a nightmare (for me) to work out which pins do what !!

Only way I can do it is to test every pin on the sensor to every pin on the pump and see if any work ...   :( and not doing that in the rain !! :(

Bodge will remain until after this weekend, then hopefully a replacement sensor will arrive, if THAT doesn't work then I'll look at continuity checks !
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #31 on: 05 October 2017, 11:59:50 »

Give me a minute...
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #32 on: 05 October 2017, 12:28:50 »

Give me a minute...
X20 under rear seat.
X8 primary plug at passenger A post

Sensor pinouts...

A Red to X20 pin 2
B BrownWhite to X20 pin 7
C Yellow to X20 pin 2
D White to X20 pin 5
E Brown to X20 pin 6
F BlueRed to X20  pin 8
G Not used
H Black to X20 pin 4

X20 pinouts
1 Not used
2 Yellow to X8 pin 34
3 Red to X8 pin 11
4 Black to Fuse 15
5 White to Pin A on pump
6 Brown to Ground body front left
7 BrownWhite to X8 pin 39
8 BlueRed to Abs pin 24

X8 pinouts
8 Black to Relay pin 4 (87)
11 Red to Fuse 27
34 Yellow to Relay pin 1 (85)
39 BrownWhite to Diagnostic socket pin 8

Relay pinouts...

1(85) Yellow to X8 pin 34
2 Not used
3(86) Black to Fuse 15
4(87) Black to Pump pin B
5(30) Red to Fuse 27

Pump pinouts...
A White to X20 pin 5 (grounds the solenoid at the sensor)
B Black to X8 pin 8 (12v feed via Relay)
C Red from Fuse 27 (permanent feed to the solenoid)
D Brown to Ground body front left
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #33 on: 05 October 2017, 12:29:18 »

Incidentally, you have checked BOTH fuses?
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #34 on: 05 October 2017, 12:33:16 »

Incidentally, you have checked BOTH fuses?

Only knew about the one ... F27 !! off to check the other now .. and your pinout printed, many, many thanks  :y :y
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #35 on: 05 October 2017, 12:33:52 »

You're welcome :y
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #36 on: 05 October 2017, 12:48:49 »

F15 & F27 both good.... waves farewell to easy fix :(

Plan of action is ... Bodge remains in place to keep me mobile this weekend, I have an AGM to run and MUST use the tintent as well as carry two and a half tons of shit that is already on the back seat !! so as the bodge appears to be working I'll use it !!  :-\ :-\

Early next week, with any luck, new sensor should arrive, easy enough to replace, if it works .. problem solved.  :y  :y

If it doesn't .. then with your pinout I make up long extensions for the multimeter and start crawling underneath the motor ....   :'( :'(

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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #37 on: 05 October 2017, 12:53:25 »

F15 & F27 both good.... waves farewell to easy fix :(

Plan of action is ... Bodge remains in place to keep me mobile this weekend, I have an AGM to run and MUST use the tintent as well as carry two and a half tons of shit that is already on the back seat !! so as the bodge appears to be working I'll use it !!  :-\ :-\

Early next week, with any luck, new sensor should arrive, easy enough to replace, if it works .. problem solved.  :y  :y

If it doesn't .. then with your pinout I make up long extensions for the multimeter and start crawling underneath the motor ....   :'( :'(

No wonder the suspension has thrown a hissy fit !  :o :D
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #38 on: 05 October 2017, 19:19:14 »

Entwood - I was after the live data, not the error codes (that will be tosh anyway, given the things you've done).

Is live data (Measuring Blocks IIRC on "that" crap reader) showing the sensor moving? If so, start measuring the outputs from sensor.


If suffering CBA and fancy a trip to Brakkers... ;)
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #39 on: 05 October 2017, 19:51:59 »

Entwood - I was after the live data, not the error codes (that will be tosh anyway, given the things you've done).

Is live data (Measuring Blocks IIRC on "that" crap reader) showing the sensor moving? If so, start measuring the outputs from sensor.


If suffering CBA and fancy a trip to Brakkers... ;)

Ahh ..ok .. no idea how to do live data on the unmentionable, and no time to learn this weekend...

Methinks I'll stick with the present plan, bodge remains as works (even with the tintent on the back - checked that this afternoon), until the promised sensor arrives, if that works then problem solved .. if it don't ... maybe a trip to Brackers before I start crawling about  doing pinout continuity checks ....
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #40 on: 09 October 2017, 17:55:56 »

With many grateful thanks to omegod we seem to have got somewhere :)

Replacement sensor arrived today, now fitted and it all seems to work... not had a substantial test, but with a load of tools in the back it went up, and when I took them out it sat high and then went down once powered....  :)

Seems to sit about 20 mms lower than the optimum 675 quoted by others on the forum and looks a tad lower than it used to be looking at its position relative to the tyre as I usually do.... perhaps  a bit of use will sort it out, if not, are these sensor arms adjustable in any way ??

Doing 200 odd miles solo wednesday and then towing the tintent on friday and back on sunday, so will have given it a good workout by sunday night !!

I'll let you all know .........    :)

Many thanks for all the help and advice ... OOF at its best  :y :y

BTW .. the "bodge"  worked brilliantly with the tintent and heavily loaded car over the weekend .. sat perfectly level and towed like a dream   ;)
« Last Edit: 09 October 2017, 17:57:57 by Entwood »
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #41 on: 09 October 2017, 17:58:31 »

I vaguely recall a tech2 calibration routine, but it was unsuccessful on chrisgixers (that had lowered springs on).
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #42 on: 10 October 2017, 08:31:25 »

Easiest method is to manually adjust the arm by bending it  :y
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #43 on: 10 October 2017, 11:47:32 »

Easiest method is to manually adjust the arm by bending it  :y

Thought someone would say that !!  I'll see if it settles down before going that way, but it certainly an option. :)
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #44 on: Yesterday at 11:48:18 »

Well, after towing the tin tent this weekend it all works fine, so thanks to everyone. Still sits 150mm too low however :(

Spent a while this morning examining the "old" one with a view to practising bending the arm to "adjust" the height, but can't, for the life of me, see a way to do it without causing damage.

The "S" bend between the ball joints is hard, brittle metal that will snap if maltreated.

The "lever arm" between the sensor body and the ball joints is pre-formed with a strengthening "dish" to prevent it bending in the direction I want it to go !!  It will bend "in and out" but not "up and down". I dare say heat on the right angle bend would allow it to move somewhat, but what would that heat do to the sensor !!!

Unless I'm missing something simple ... and probably am !!

 :-\ :-\
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 11:52:23 »

Are the ball joints not screwed onto the arm like servo rods?
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 11:53:39 »

Are the ball joints not screwed onto the arm like servo rods?

yes they are ... but not sure how that helps ? unscrewing them moves the arm sideways not vertically ..
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #47 on: Yesterday at 11:59:36 »

The shocks and springs are saloon ones? 150mm is nearly 6" which is a lot :-\

Are the ball joints not screwed onto the arm like servo rods?

yes they are ... but not sure how that helps ? unscrewing them moves the arm sideways not vertically ..
Unscrew/screw them slightly to adjust the arm length... also, any adjustment where the sensor bolts to the bracket?
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 12:01:39 by Doctor Gollum »
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Re: Self levelling suspension woes
« Reply #48 on: Yesterday at 12:38:55 »

The shocks and springs are saloon ones? 150mm is nearly 6" which is a lot :-\

Are the ball joints not screwed onto the arm like servo rods?

yes they are ... but not sure how that helps ? unscrewing them moves the arm sideways not vertically ..
Unscrew/screw them slightly to adjust the arm length... also, any adjustment where the sensor bolts to the bracket?

ooops ... 15 mm   :)  see post #40 ... sorry ....  :(
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