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[BazaJT]

How was the "prankster"allowed to get so close to the PM unchallenged?Like her or not this should not have happened,and from reports it was the venue security and not her own personal protection that got to him first

[STEMO]

It makes you wish our security guards carried guns.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Thank God this is not America and that prat had a gun in his hand and not a P45

[Mister Rog]

Thank God this is not America and that prat had a gun in his hand and not a P45

Damn "Colt 45" . . . . . . That's what I meant to bring . . . . not . . . 


This guy (Simon Brodkin) is actually very funny, particularly his chavvy character Lee Nelson. He has quite a track record of stunts like this.

[New POD]

I don't like Violence, but since there is direct correlation at least 9850 sick and disabled have died since (and as a direct result of) the Bastard Tories brought in changes to sickness benefits, and the way that they are assessed as fit for work or placed in a work group.
I often rather wish scum like May and Johnson were rounded up and shot, but that just isn't what we British do. No we attend a party conference, getting through security without a problem because we don't have a gun in our bag, and politely hand a fake P45 to the prime minister, who hasn't a oppsing clue what it's like to live in the real world.

I think handing her a bag of burning dog turd would have been more appropriate.

[Doctor Gollum]

I don't like Violence, but since there is direct correlation at least 9850 sick and disabled have died since (and as a direct result of) the Bastard Tories brought in changes to sickness benefits, and the way that they are assessed as fit for work or placed in a work group.
I often rather wish scum like May and Johnson were rounded up and shot, but that just isn't what we British do. No we attend a party conference, getting through security without a problem because we don't have a gun in our bag, and politely hand a fake P45 to the prime minister, who hasn't a oppsing clue what it's like to live in the real world.

I think handing her a bag of burning dog turd would have been more appropriate.

There's one in every village

Comrades Blair and especially Brown are the ones that bankrupted UK Plc... Brown did such a royally appalling job that we are still paying for it.

So I ask you... Whi is ACTUALLY responsible for the current financial state of affairs?

[Entwood]

I don't like Violence, but since there is direct correlation at least 9850 sick and disabled have died since (and as a direct result of) the Bastard Tories brought in changes to sickness benefits, and the way that they are assessed as fit for work or placed in a work group.
I often rather wish scum like May and Johnson were rounded up and shot, but that just isn't what we British do. No we attend a party conference, getting through security without a problem because we don't have a gun in our bag, and politely hand a fake P45 to the prime minister, who hasn't a oppsing clue what it's like to live in the real world.

I think handing her a bag of burning dog turd would have been more appropriate.

Never let the truth get in the way of a good rant ... and that IS a good rant .. untrue, pointless and achieves nowt .... yup .. a good rant ..

[New POD]

There's one in every village

Comrades Blair and especially Brown are the ones that bankrupted UK Plc... Brown did such a royally appalling job that we are still paying for it.

So I ask you... Whi is ACTUALLY responsible for the current financial state of affairs?

Well, as you asked, Thatcher lit the touch paper, and Blair never managed to invest in a fire blanket to put it out, and probably just ran around fanning the flames, but this lot are MORE evil than any others before them.  The rich backers of the Tory party get richer, and everyone else can suffer.  We are all just pawns who will be digging our own graves.

[omegod]

I'm not getting sucked in to this argument but would request any people who are fortunately " distanced " from the harsh realities of the current benefit system find and watch this film, I Daniel Blake,  if anything it's got much harsher since it was made   

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5168192/

[ronnyd]

Thank God this is not America and that prat had a gun in his hand and not a P45

Damn "Colt 45" . . . . . . That's what I meant to bring . . . . not . . . 


This guy (Simon Brodkin) is actually very funny, particularly his chavvy character Lee Nelson. He has quite a track record of stunts like this.

He was the guy who showered banknotes over Sepp Blatter

[grifter]

I don't like Violence, but since there is direct correlation at least 9850 sick and disabled have died since (and as a direct result of) the Bastard Tories brought in changes to sickness benefits, and the way that they are assessed as fit for work or placed in a work group.
I often rather wish scum like May and Johnson were rounded up and shot, but that just isn't what we British do. No we attend a party conference, getting through security without a problem because we don't have a gun in our bag, and politely hand a fake P45 to the prime minister, who hasn't a oppsing clue what it's like to live in the real world.

I think handing her a bag of burning dog turd would have been more appropriate.

There's one in every village

Comrades Blair and especially Brown are the ones that bankrupted UK Plc... Brown did such a royally appalling job that we are still paying for it.

So I ask you... Whi is ACTUALLY responsible for the current financial state of affairs?

Politicians should be held responsible for their actions, I mean it's the most responsible job in the country - apparently - it seems to say sorry is enough when you bankrupt a country although Brown trousers never even admitted it.

[Mister Rog]

I'm not getting sucked in to this argument but would request any people who are fortunately " distanced " from the harsh realities of the current benefit system find and watch this film, I Daniel Blake,  if anything it's got much harsher since it was made   

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5168192/

I wasn't aware of this film, but I am now. A major part (just part) of the problem is that there are huge numbers of people who claim benefits fraudulently. I personally know people who's lives evolve around "working the system", on a long term or even life long, basis. For decades their entire income derives from the state and they contribute nothing either financially or in any type of service or function. Their only contribution to society is as consumers.

The Tories try to curb this but end up disadavantaging those in genuine need. However, the Labour method of throwing even more cash at it, simply makes it worse (but it does gain them votes). I really wish I had an answer but I don't. I do know that Corbyn is not the answer if the country is to have a sufficiently healthy economy to enable it to have a benefits system - at all.

I've said my bit and will not be responding to any further comments.

[Keith ABS]

  If we are talking about politicians having to take the wrap for there actions, Tony Blair Gordon Brown and John Prescott for treason for what they did to this country. Blairs wife for insider information with setting up a human rights law firm a year before this country announced we had signed up to it. Just my opinion

Keith ABS

[Olympia5776]

It's absolutely disgraceful that every news channel I've watched this morning has scorned TM for what happened yesterday.
That self seeking cretin with the P45 should be taken out the rear door and given a proper f'ing kicking in some dark corner and then pissed on.....As for her unfortunate cough, I've been struck down with that when giving a presentation it's awful but hey , get real,it happens . The smiling obnoxious  news presenters and producers should learn some humility.
The detaching letters on the backdrop FFS , funny but totally irrelevant .

I do wish she would " man up " regarding the Brexit divorce and tell them the way WE  will do it but policies aside she deserves none of the derision being reported.

[Olympia5776]

It's absolutely disgraceful that every news channel I've watched this morning has scorned TM for what happened yesterday.
That self seeking cretin with the P45 should be taken out the rear door and given a proper f'ing kicking in some dark corner and then pissed on.....As for her unfortunate cough, I've been struck down with that when giving a presentation it's awful but hey , get real,it happens . The smiling obnoxious  news presenters and producers should learn some humility.
The detaching letters on the backdrop FFS , funny but totally irrelevant .

I do wish she would " man up " regarding the Brexit divorce and tell them the way WE  will do it but policies aside she deserves none of the derision being reported.

OOPS a real major slip up ....double post 

[Entwood]

Typical self-serving "news" outlets who want to MAKE the news not REPORT it ..... that the emphasis is on ....

Cough, P45, letters falling off backdrop .... followed by rumour spreading from "sources"

Now, if they were actually REPORTING the conference we "might" have some reporting of the substance of her speech .... fat chance of that happening ...

BTW, after 38 years in the military I KNOW the definition of a newspaper "source" ... it is often simply an eavesdropping journalist overhearing half a conversation in a pub, then making the rest up.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

There's one in every village

Comrades Blair and especially Brown are the ones that bankrupted UK Plc... Brown did such a royally appalling job that we are still paying for it.

So I ask you... Whi is ACTUALLY responsible for the current financial state of affairs?

Well, as you asked, Thatcher lit the touch paper, and Blair never managed to invest in a fire blanket to put it out, and probably just ran around fanning the flames, but this lot are MORE evil than any others before them.  The rich backers of the Tory party get richer, and everyone else can suffer.  We are all just pawns who will be digging our own graves.

A long time ago, when I was a young man. I used to think exactly like you do. Then, at some point I learned to think using facts, rather than emotion.
I looked at the unbelievably dire state of the UK, particularily its economy, in the 1970,s and couldn't escape the conclusion that someone had to take power and do difficult, radical, things, make huge changes, and sort the country out.
Thankfully Thatcher did just that, and saved the country. That is no exaggeration. If you don't believe it, do some objective research on just how bad things were in the UK in the 70,s.
Within a few years of her taking office the economy had become probably the strongest in the world, the nation had regained its pride and things were on an upward trajectory until Gordon Brown squandered the legacy, ignored the lessons of history, and bankrupted us once again.
Did Thatcher get it all right ? No. No-one does, and some things could have ben done differently, but overall, she turned a basket case of an economy into the envy of the world.
And despite what the media might preach, the money was by no means concentrated at the top of society.
She created the situation where ordinary working class people became homeowners and small business people.
Overall society was changed for the better  and has largely continued that way, despite Blair and Brown, but Corbyn has a dream to wipe out all that has happened since the mid 70,s and take the country back there.
The unions will run the country. Pay rises will be upwards of 20%, but inflation will be pushing 30%.
Corporation tax back to over 50%, so business will flee abroad, and no-one will invest.
Talented people who earn good money will have income tax levels of over 80% again, so we will have "the brain drain MK2".
Then McDonnell, like Healey before him, can go cap in hand to the IMF, to try and borrow the money to pay the wages of the public sector, because our credit rating will be so poor, banks wont loan us a penny, and there is no wealth being generated.
This isn't a fantasy. Its what happened. I lived through it, and it was caused by the exact same policies which Corbyn is promoting to gullible younger people and very stupid older people. If he gets to number 10. History will repeat itself.
P.S. The gap between rich and poor was at its widest under the last Labour Govt. It has narrowed in the last few years.
Under Corbyn there will be no gap between rich and poor. No-one (who stays in the country) will be rich, and everyone will be poorer. Much poorer.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

There's one in every village

Comrades Blair and especially Brown are the ones that bankrupted UK Plc... Brown did such a royally appalling job that we are still paying for it.

So I ask you... Whi is ACTUALLY responsible for the current financial state of affairs?

Well, as you asked, Thatcher lit the touch paper, and Blair never managed to invest in a fire blanket to put it out, and probably just ran around fanning the flames, but this lot are MORE evil than any others before them.  The rich backers of the Tory party get richer, and everyone else can suffer.  We are all just pawns who will be digging our own graves.

A long time ago, when I was a young man. I used to think exactly like you do. Then, at some point I learned to think using facts, rather than emotion.
I looked at the unbelievably dire state of the UK, particularily its economy, in the 1970,s and couldn't escape the conclusion that someone had to take power and do difficult, radical, things, make huge changes, and sort the country out.
Thankfully Thatcher did just that, and saved the country. That is no exaggeration. If you don't believe it, do some objective research on just how bad things were in the UK in the 70,s.
Within a few years of her taking office the economy had become probably the strongest in the world, the nation had regained its pride and things were on an upward trajectory until Gordon Brown squandered the legacy, ignored the lessons of history, and bankrupted us once again.
Did Thatcher get it all right ? No. No-one does, and some things could have ben done differently, but overall, she turned a basket case of an economy into the envy of the world.
And despite what the media might preach, the money was by no means concentrated at the top of society.
She created the situation where ordinary working class people became homeowners and small business people.
Overall society was changed for the better  and has largely continued that way, despite Blair and Brown, but Corbyn has a dream to wipe out all that has happened since the mid 70,s and take the country back there.
The unions will run the country. Pay rises will be upwards of 20%, but inflation will be pushing 30%.
Corporation tax back to over 50%, so business will flee abroad, and no-one will invest.
Talented people who earn good money will have income tax levels of over 80% again, so we will have "the brain drain MK2".
Then McDonnell, like Healey before him, can go cap in hand to the IMF, to try and borrow the money to pay the wages of the public sector, because our credit rating will be so poor, banks wont loan us a penny, and there is no wealth being generated.
This isn't a fantasy. Its what happened. I lived through it, and it was caused by the exact same policies which Corbyn is promoting to gullible younger people and very stupid older people. If he gets to number 10. History will repeat itself.
P.S. The gap between rich and poor was at its widest under the last Labour Govt. It has narrowed in the last few years.
Under Corbyn there will be no gap between rich and poor. No-one (who stays in the country) will be rich, and everyone will be poorer. Much poorer.

A very long time ago.

Thatcher was not the Messiah she was a half-crazed wild-eyed old woman with a tentative grasp on reality as her senility advanced.

She did not create Utopia unless the definition of Utopia is a divided country with 3 million unemployed.

[Mister Rog]

There's one in every village

Comrades Blair and especially Brown are the ones that bankrupted UK Plc... Brown did such a royally appalling job that we are still paying for it.

So I ask you... Whi is ACTUALLY responsible for the current financial state of affairs?

Well, as you asked, Thatcher lit the touch paper, and Blair never managed to invest in a fire blanket to put it out, and probably just ran around fanning the flames, but this lot are MORE evil than any others before them.  The rich backers of the Tory party get richer, and everyone else can suffer.  We are all just pawns who will be digging our own graves.

A long time ago, when I was a young man. I used to think exactly like you do. Then, at some point I learned to think using facts, rather than emotion.
I looked at the unbelievably dire state of the UK, particularily its economy, in the 1970,s and couldn't escape the conclusion that someone had to take power and do difficult, radical, things, make huge changes, and sort the country out.
Thankfully Thatcher did just that, and saved the country. That is no exaggeration. If you don't believe it, do some objective research on just how bad things were in the UK in the 70,s.
Within a few years of her taking office the economy had become probably the strongest in the world, the nation had regained its pride and things were on an upward trajectory until Gordon Brown squandered the legacy, ignored the lessons of history, and bankrupted us once again.
Did Thatcher get it all right ? No. No-one does, and some things could have ben done differently, but overall, she turned a basket case of an economy into the envy of the world.
And despite what the media might preach, the money was by no means concentrated at the top of society.
She created the situation where ordinary working class people became homeowners and small business people.
Overall society was changed for the better  and has largely continued that way, despite Blair and Brown, but Corbyn has a dream to wipe out all that has happened since the mid 70,s and take the country back there.
The unions will run the country. Pay rises will be upwards of 20%, but inflation will be pushing 30%.
Corporation tax back to over 50%, so business will flee abroad, and no-one will invest.
Talented people who earn good money will have income tax levels of over 80% again, so we will have "the brain drain MK2".
Then McDonnell, like Healey before him, can go cap in hand to the IMF, to try and borrow the money to pay the wages of the public sector, because our credit rating will be so poor, banks wont loan us a penny, and there is no wealth being generated.
This isn't a fantasy. Its what happened. I lived through it, and it was caused by the exact same policies which Corbyn is promoting to gullible younger people and very stupid older people. If he gets to number 10. History will repeat itself.
P.S. The gap between rich and poor was at its widest under the last Labour Govt. It has narrowed in the last few years.
Under Corbyn there will be no gap between rich and poor. No-one (who stays in the country) will be rich, and everyone will be poorer. Much poorer.

Well said     There's a lot of people who don't have the balls to say all that, well not in public.

Yes, she "lost it" later on. No idea what happened there

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

There's one in every village

Comrades Blair and especially Brown are the ones that bankrupted UK Plc... Brown did such a royally appalling job that we are still paying for it.

So I ask you... Whi is ACTUALLY responsible for the current financial state of affairs?

Well, as you asked, Thatcher lit the touch paper, and Blair never managed to invest in a fire blanket to put it out, and probably just ran around fanning the flames, but this lot are MORE evil than any others before them.  The rich backers of the Tory party get richer, and everyone else can suffer.  We are all just pawns who will be digging our own graves.

A long time ago, when I was a young man. I used to think exactly like you do. Then, at some point I learned to think using facts, rather than emotion.
I looked at the unbelievably dire state of the UK, particularily its economy, in the 1970,s and couldn't escape the conclusion that someone had to take power and do difficult, radical, things, make huge changes, and sort the country out.
Thankfully Thatcher did just that, and saved the country. That is no exaggeration. If you don't believe it, do some objective research on just how bad things were in the UK in the 70,s.
Within a few years of her taking office the economy had become probably the strongest in the world, the nation had regained its pride and things were on an upward trajectory until Gordon Brown squandered the legacy, ignored the lessons of history, and bankrupted us once again.
Did Thatcher get it all right ? No. No-one does, and some things could have ben done differently, but overall, she turned a basket case of an economy into the envy of the world.
And despite what the media might preach, the money was by no means concentrated at the top of society.
She created the situation where ordinary working class people became homeowners and small business people.
Overall society was changed for the better  and has largely continued that way, despite Blair and Brown, but Corbyn has a dream to wipe out all that has happened since the mid 70,s and take the country back there.
The unions will run the country. Pay rises will be upwards of 20%, but inflation will be pushing 30%.
Corporation tax back to over 50%, so business will flee abroad, and no-one will invest.
Talented people who earn good money will have income tax levels of over 80% again, so we will have "the brain drain MK2".
Then McDonnell, like Healey before him, can go cap in hand to the IMF, to try and borrow the money to pay the wages of the public sector, because our credit rating will be so poor, banks wont loan us a penny, and there is no wealth being generated.
This isn't a fantasy. Its what happened. I lived through it, and it was caused by the exact same policies which Corbyn is promoting to gullible younger people and very stupid older people. If he gets to number 10. History will repeat itself.
P.S. The gap between rich and poor was at its widest under the last Labour Govt. It has narrowed in the last few years.
Under Corbyn there will be no gap between rich and poor. No-one (who stays in the country) will be rich, and everyone will be poorer. Much poorer.

Well said     There's a lot of people who don't have the balls to say all that, well not in public.

Yes, she "lost it" later on. No idea what happened there

That nice Mr Heseltine put a knife in her back. By this time (1990) she had completely lost the plot.

[Doctor Gollum]

True enough that... They were lucky to last until '97

It's just a shame that Cameron turned out to be a spineless lemon.

As for TM, whilst you can understand the comparison with Maggie, she isn't Maggie. Which is a shame as there needs to be a pair of balls in charge.*

And I don't mean Ed

[Lizzie Zoom]

I don't like Violence, but since there is direct correlation at least 9850 sick and disabled have died since (and as a direct result of) the Bastard Tories brought in changes to sickness benefits, and the way that they are assessed as fit for work or placed in a work group.
I often rather wish scum like May and Johnson were rounded up and shot, but that just isn't what we British do. No we attend a party conference, getting through security without a problem because we don't have a gun in our bag, and politely hand a fake P45 to the prime minister, who hasn't a oppsing clue what it's like to live in the real world.

I think handing her a bag of burning dog turd would have been more appropriate.

There's one in every village

Comrades Blair and especially Brown are the ones that bankrupted UK Plc... Brown did such a royally appalling job that we are still paying for it.

So I ask you... Whi is ACTUALLY responsible for the current financial state of affairs?

+1

Well said GD

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

A very simple fact which left leaning people don't seem able to accept. You cannot continuously spend money you don't have.
If you try to, you will run into serious trouble. The principal is true whether its our household finances or our national economy.
Every Labour Govt. has done it (as did Osborne) and it always ended in tears, but they keep doing it.
Einstein,s definition of madness comes to mind.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I don't like Violence, but since there is direct correlation at least 9850 sick and disabled have died since (and as a direct result of) the Bastard Tories brought in changes to sickness benefits, and the way that they are assessed as fit for work or placed in a work group.
I often rather wish scum like May and Johnson were rounded up and shot, but that just isn't what we British do. No we attend a party conference, getting through security without a problem because we don't have a gun in our bag, and politely hand a fake P45 to the prime minister, who hasn't a oppsing clue what it's like to live in the real world.

I think handing her a bag of burning dog turd would have been more appropriate.

There's one in every village

Comrades Blair and especially Brown are the ones that bankrupted UK Plc... Brown did such a royally appalling job that we are still paying for it.

So I ask you... Whi is ACTUALLY responsible for the current financial state of affairs?

+1

Well said GD

Lizzie.....I think you and Al could son become an item.   Is that wedding bells I hear?

[Lizzie Zoom]

There's one in every village

Comrades Blair and especially Brown are the ones that bankrupted UK Plc... Brown did such a royally appalling job that we are still paying for it.

So I ask you... Whi is ACTUALLY responsible for the current financial state of affairs?

Well, as you asked, Thatcher lit the touch paper, and Blair never managed to invest in a fire blanket to put it out, and probably just ran around fanning the flames, but this lot are MORE evil than any others before them.  The rich backers of the Tory party get richer, and everyone else can suffer.  We are all just pawns who will be digging our own graves.

A long time ago, when I was a young man. I used to think exactly like you do. Then, at some point I learned to think using facts, rather than emotion.
I looked at the unbelievably dire state of the UK, particularily its economy, in the 1970,s and couldn't escape the conclusion that someone had to take power and do difficult, radical, things, make huge changes, and sort the country out.
Thankfully Thatcher did just that, and saved the country. That is no exaggeration. If you don't believe it, do some objective research on just how bad things were in the UK in the 70,s.
Within a few years of her taking office the economy had become probably the strongest in the world, the nation had regained its pride and things were on an upward trajectory until Gordon Brown squandered the legacy, ignored the lessons of history, and bankrupted us once again.
Did Thatcher get it all right ? No. No-one does, and some things could have ben done differently, but overall, she turned a basket case of an economy into the envy of the world.
And despite what the media might preach, the money was by no means concentrated at the top of society.
She created the situation where ordinary working class people became homeowners and small business people.
Overall society was changed for the better  and has largely continued that way, despite Blair and Brown, but Corbyn has a dream to wipe out all that has happened since the mid 70,s and take the country back there.
The unions will run the country. Pay rises will be upwards of 20%, but inflation will be pushing 30%.
Corporation tax back to over 50%, so business will flee abroad, and no-one will invest.
Talented people who earn good money will have income tax levels of over 80% again, so we will have "the brain drain MK2".
Then McDonnell, like Healey before him, can go cap in hand to the IMF, to try and borrow the money to pay the wages of the public sector, because our credit rating will be so poor, banks wont loan us a penny, and there is no wealth being generated.
This isn't a fantasy. Its what happened. I lived through it, and it was caused by the exact same policies which Corbyn is promoting to gullible younger people and very stupid older people. If he gets to number 10. History will repeat itself.
P.S. The gap between rich and poor was at its widest under the last Labour Govt. It has narrowed in the last few years.
Under Corbyn there will be no gap between rich and poor. No-one (who stays in the country) will be rich, and everyone will be poorer. Much poorer.

An excellent summary MigV6 that I fully agree with having been a teenager in the 1960s, full of Socialist ideals, and then watch the disaster of the 1970's with Labour looking on, Unions in full power, watching the country burn.  Then came Maggie.............

As for the benefits argument raised in this thread, I was that teenager in 1968 who remembers one of our teachers in my last year at school explaining with great conviction how "we" as the young could / should not rely on the Welfare State; you WILL WORK for your future and living, otherwise you WILL suffer.......!! 

I repeat that was in 1968, and I from a family who had a strong works ethic went out to work officially at 15 years of age, starting my career in retail, earning very poor money as a shop assistant and then an assistant stock auditor, but working up to something I knew could be much greater. I had done paper rounds since the age of 12, so understood something about the value of money, so knew I had to earn my crust.  So, as someone who for illness reasons in latter life did rely for a bit on welfare, can say that anyone younger than me should never be so reliant on welfare.  It is a dead enterprise, as it was foreseen in the late 60's by many that the country could not afford such an open ended, expensive scheme. No in 2017 the Welfare State is really fully dead as the country cannot afford endless payouts when there is the pressure of the NHS, Security Forces, and Education budgets to consider.

I feel sorry of course for anyone genuinely sick on benefits as I was, but I know people who could work but do not, blaming their "illness" on everything. So anyone fit enough to work should do, no matter how menial that job is. I say stop blaming foreigners for taking your jobs and get out there and work; there are plenty of jobs available and indeed there is a SHORTAGE of workers in many industries.  Stop blaming the government for your woes and do something about it.  If you are fit and able get out of bed and work as the rest of us do.  Enroll in further education if necessary to achieve new goals, but just do it!!  (rant mode off! I have said it all now and sod it if anyone objects.  That is how it is!)

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

A very simple fact which left leaning people don't seem able to accept. You cannot continuously spend money you don't have.
If you try to, you will run into serious trouble. The principal is true whether its our household finances or our national economy.
Every Labour Govt. has done it (as did Osborne) and it always ended in tears, but they keep doing it.
Einstein,s definition of madness comes to mind.

Enough money to 'bribe' the DUP with £1 billion?
Enough money to find £100 billion for our 'European chums'?

Is this money we have or don't have?

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

There's one in every village

Comrades Blair and especially Brown are the ones that bankrupted UK Plc... Brown did such a royally appalling job that we are still paying for it.

So I ask you... Whi is ACTUALLY responsible for the current financial state of affairs?

Well, as you asked, Thatcher lit the touch paper, and Blair never managed to invest in a fire blanket to put it out, and probably just ran around fanning the flames, but this lot are MORE evil than any others before them.  The rich backers of the Tory party get richer, and everyone else can suffer.  We are all just pawns who will be digging our own graves.

A long time ago, when I was a young man. I used to think exactly like you do. Then, at some point I learned to think using facts, rather than emotion.
I looked at the unbelievably dire state of the UK, particularily its economy, in the 1970,s and couldn't escape the conclusion that someone had to take power and do difficult, radical, things, make huge changes, and sort the country out.
Thankfully Thatcher did just that, and saved the country. That is no exaggeration. If you don't believe it, do some objective research on just how bad things were in the UK in the 70,s.
Within a few years of her taking office the economy had become probably the strongest in the world, the nation had regained its pride and things were on an upward trajectory until Gordon Brown squandered the legacy, ignored the lessons of history, and bankrupted us once again.
Did Thatcher get it all right ? No. No-one does, and some things could have ben done differently, but overall, she turned a basket case of an economy into the envy of the world.
And despite what the media might preach, the money was by no means concentrated at the top of society.
She created the situation where ordinary working class people became homeowners and small business people.
Overall society was changed for the better  and has largely continued that way, despite Blair and Brown, but Corbyn has a dream to wipe out all that has happened since the mid 70,s and take the country back there.
The unions will run the country. Pay rises will be upwards of 20%, but inflation will be pushing 30%.
Corporation tax back to over 50%, so business will flee abroad, and no-one will invest.
Talented people who earn good money will have income tax levels of over 80% again, so we will have "the brain drain MK2".
Then McDonnell, like Healey before him, can go cap in hand to the IMF, to try and borrow the money to pay the wages of the public sector, because our credit rating will be so poor, banks wont loan us a penny, and there is no wealth being generated.
This isn't a fantasy. Its what happened. I lived through it, and it was caused by the exact same policies which Corbyn is promoting to gullible younger people and very stupid older people. If he gets to number 10. History will repeat itself.
P.S. The gap between rich and poor was at its widest under the last Labour Govt. It has narrowed in the last few years.
Under Corbyn there will be no gap between rich and poor. No-one (who stays in the country) will be rich, and everyone will be poorer. Much poorer.

A very long time ago.

Thatcher was not the Messiah she was a half-crazed wild-eyed old woman with a tentative grasp on reality as her senility advanced.

She did not create Utopia unless the definition of Utopia is a divided country with 3 million unemployed.

See, that's emotional thinking, without facts. If you look how bad things were before she came to power, its likely that we would have been lucky to have 3 million people in work by the mid 80,s rather than 3 million out of work.
Theres no denying it was very hard on some people, but British industry was hopelessly uncompetitive due to spineless politicians, poor management and Marxist unions whose agenda was to destroy the capitalist system from the inside out.
Before sitting on the front bench John McDonnell took pride in saying he had the same agenda. When the financial crash happened he said "I have been waiting for this moment my whole life".
The thought of him running the treasury makes whats left of my hair stand on end !

[Sir Tigger KC]

At their conference the Labour party announced that they'd spend an extra £325 billion pound of taxpayers money.  Add to that the £100 billion that they'd no doubt give over to the EU in the blink of an eye and there's some eye watering amounts of money that a Labour government would have to raise. 

The Corbynistas tell us that it's all fully funded and it's all there in the manifesto, and in theory I'm sure they are right.  However what they don't account for is that the big corporates and the wealthy can and will change their behaviour to avoid punitive taxes.  Look at what happened in France when Francois Hollande was elected on a tide of socialist optimism and he jacked the top rate of tax up to 70%.  All the wealthy upped sticks to London (and elsewhere) and the French government quietly dropped the top rate back to 45% a couple of years later. 

John McDonnell would soon find that his spending plans are unaffordable under his current plans and would have to resort to either raising taxes dramatically for everyone or massively increasing government borrowing.  I saw an interview with his deputy where he said that the Labour party was 'comfortable with increased borrowing'.  I can tell you that that statement sent a shiver down my spine!    I've little doubt that a Labour government would bankrupt this country in short order and the image of John McDonnell going cap in hand to the IMF as Albs pointed out earlier is a very realistic prospect. 

Maybe however we do need a good dose of hard left socialism again so all the youngsters, the stupid and the naive can see first hand what it's all about and then we can put it back in it's box for another generation. 

[Lizzie Zoom]

There's one in every village

Comrades Blair and especially Brown are the ones that bankrupted UK Plc... Brown did such a royally appalling job that we are still paying for it.

So I ask you... Whi is ACTUALLY responsible for the current financial state of affairs?

Well, as you asked, Thatcher lit the touch paper, and Blair never managed to invest in a fire blanket to put it out, and probably just ran around fanning the flames, but this lot are MORE evil than any others before them.  The rich backers of the Tory party get richer, and everyone else can suffer.  We are all just pawns who will be digging our own graves.

A long time ago, when I was a young man. I used to think exactly like you do. Then, at some point I learned to think using facts, rather than emotion.
I looked at the unbelievably dire state of the UK, particularily its economy, in the 1970,s and couldn't escape the conclusion that someone had to take power and do difficult, radical, things, make huge changes, and sort the country out.
Thankfully Thatcher did just that, and saved the country. That is no exaggeration. If you don't believe it, do some objective research on just how bad things were in the UK in the 70,s.
Within a few years of her taking office the economy had become probably the strongest in the world, the nation had regained its pride and things were on an upward trajectory until Gordon Brown squandered the legacy, ignored the lessons of history, and bankrupted us once again.
Did Thatcher get it all right ? No. No-one does, and some things could have ben done differently, but overall, she turned a basket case of an economy into the envy of the world.
And despite what the media might preach, the money was by no means concentrated at the top of society.
She created the situation where ordinary working class people became homeowners and small business people.
Overall society was changed for the better  and has largely continued that way, despite Blair and Brown, but Corbyn has a dream to wipe out all that has happened since the mid 70,s and take the country back there.
The unions will run the country. Pay rises will be upwards of 20%, but inflation will be pushing 30%.
Corporation tax back to over 50%, so business will flee abroad, and no-one will invest.
Talented people who earn good money will have income tax levels of over 80% again, so we will have "the brain drain MK2".
Then McDonnell, like Healey before him, can go cap in hand to the IMF, to try and borrow the money to pay the wages of the public sector, because our credit rating will be so poor, banks wont loan us a penny, and there is no wealth being generated.
This isn't a fantasy. Its what happened. I lived through it, and it was caused by the exact same policies which Corbyn is promoting to gullible younger people and very stupid older people. If he gets to number 10. History will repeat itself.
P.S. The gap between rich and poor was at its widest under the last Labour Govt. It has narrowed in the last few years.
Under Corbyn there will be no gap between rich and poor. No-one (who stays in the country) will be rich, and everyone will be poorer. Much poorer.

A very long time ago.

Thatcher was not the Messiah she was a half-crazed wild-eyed old woman with a tentative grasp on reality as her senility advanced.

She did not create Utopia unless the definition of Utopia is a divided country with 3 million unemployed.

See, that's emotional thinking, without facts. If you look how bad things were before she came to power, its likely that we would have been lucky to have 3 million people in work by the mid 80,s rather than 3 million out of work.
Theres no denying it was very hard on some people, but British industry was hopelessly uncompetitive due to spineless politicians, poor management and Marxist unions whose agenda was to destroy the capitalist system from the inside out.
Before sitting on the front bench John McDonnell took pride in saying he had the same agenda. When the financial crash happened he said "I have been waiting for this moment my whole life".
The thought of him running the treasury makes whats left of my hair stand on end !

We as a country was dying, the sick man of Europe who was in terminal decline, still clinging on to the past, keeping obsolete coal mines, car factories, steel works and ship building, all heavily subsidised with public money, whilst the Unions where really the Labour Government, presiding over out dated industrial practices, such as in the docks, which dramatically needed change, but the unions objected to with endless strikes.  What a fxcking mess it was.............I could say more, but my blood pressure cannot take it................Labour getting in with Corbyn?......................fxcking hell!!

[Lizzie Zoom]

At their conference the Labour party announced that they'd spend an extra £325 billion pound of taxpayers money.  Add to that the £100 billion that they'd no doubt give over to the EU in the blink of an eye and there's some eye watering amounts of money that a Labour government would have to raise. 

The Corbynistas tell us that it's all fully funded and it's all there in the manifesto, and in theory I'm sure they are right.  However what they don't account for is that the big corporates and the wealthy can and will change their behaviour to avoid punitive taxes.  Look at what happened in France when Francois Hollande was elected on a tide of socialist optimism and he jacked the top rate of tax up to 70%.  All the wealthy upped sticks to London (and elsewhere) and the French government quietly dropped the top rate back to 45% a couple of years later. 

John McDonnell would soon find that his spending plans are unaffordable under his current plans and would have to resort to either raising taxes dramatically for everyone or massively increasing government borrowing.  I saw an interview with his deputy where he said that the Labour party was 'comfortable with increased borrowing'.  I can tell you that that statement sent a shiver down my spine!    I've little doubt that a Labour government would bankrupt this country in short order and the image of John McDonnell going cap in hand to the IMF as Albs pointed out earlier is a very realistic prospect. 

Maybe however we do need a good dose of hard left socialism again so all the youngsters, the stupid and the naive can see first hand what it's all about and then we can put it back in it's box for another generation. 

 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

A very simple fact which left leaning people don't seem able to accept. You cannot continuously spend money you don't have.
If you try to, you will run into serious trouble. The principal is true whether its our household finances or our national economy.
Every Labour Govt. has done it (as did Osborne) and it always ended in tears, but they keep doing it.
Einstein,s definition of madness comes to mind.

Enough money to 'bribe' the DUP with £1 billion?
Enough money to find £100 billion for our 'European chums'?

Is this money we have or don't have?

As a taxpayer, if £1 billion was the price of making sure Corbyn didn't get so much as asniff of power, then its the best spent £1 billion of my tax money, in living memory.
As for our "European chums" I wouldn't give them a brass farthing. In fact we could send them a bill for a couple of trillion or so, for rescuing them from Hitler. They certainly didn't have the balls to rescue themselves. 
I do have some sympathy for people who have been on benefits long term and become virtually unemployable, because they were put in that position as part of a very cynical political game.
Brown basically made the welfare state a free for all, where anyone could tell a few porkies, or have a few kids, and get a monthly cheque bigger than the pay cheque of the average person in work.
Once in that system with little hope of escape, they were trapped in the classic Socialist trap, where the state takes care of you, the state controls everything, you have no ambition, genuine pride, no reason to want to better yourself etc. etc.
The only thing you need to do is vote Labour at every election and you don't have to worry about anything ever again.
I would like to see the Govt actually create jobs for disabled people where they could learn some skills and take some pride in earning their way in the world.
Istr there was some such scheme but Osborne withdrew funding ?
I'm mildly disabled but have worked all my life. Stephen Hawking is terribly physically disabled, but blessed with an IQ in 4 figures, he has worked all his life.
If the opportunities exist, most disabled people could do some kind of work.
To just assume they cant and pay them to sit at home, is an insult to them imo.
Of course, if people are very seriously disabled or in very poor health we as a society should take car of them. If someone who has worked for many years suddenly loses their job, they shouldn't starve. They should have food, heat, shelter and support to get back into employment.
However, when we have the usual suspects  screaming from the rooftops because welfare is limited to less than £600 pw, per household, when the vast majority of working households don't have that amount coming in, then we really are in la la land.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Brown basically made the welfare state a free for all, where anyone could tell a few porkies, or have a few kids, and get a monthly cheque bigger than the pay cheque of the average person in work.
Once in that system with little hope of escape, they were trapped in the classic Socialist trap, where the state takes care of you, the state controls everything, you have no ambition, genuine pride, no reason to want to better yourself etc. etc.
The only thing you need to do is vote Labour at every election and you don't have to worry about anything ever again.

Tax Credits introduced by Brown which cost the Treasury about £30-40 billion a year are a good example of this where the taxpayer are effectively subsidising businesses wage bill.  There is no incentive for any company to give any meaningful pay rise as they know that the government will top up peoples income, and big business in particular have ruthlessly exploited this situation.   Now that so many people rely on in work benefits, it would be political suicide for any political party to abolish Tax Credits. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

A very simple fact which left leaning people don't seem able to accept. You cannot continuously spend money you don't have.
If you try to, you will run into serious trouble. The principal is true whether its our household finances or our national economy.
Every Labour Govt. has done it (as did Osborne) and it always ended in tears, but they keep doing it.
Einstein,s definition of madness comes to mind.

Enough money to 'bribe' the DUP with £1 billion?
Enough money to find £100 billion for our 'European chums'?

Is this money we have or don't have?

As a taxpayer, if £1 billion was the price of making sure Corbyn didn't get so much as asniff of power, then its the best spent £1 billion of my tax money, in living memory.
As for our "European chums" I wouldn't give them a brass farthing. In fact we could send them a bill for a couple of trillion or so, for rescuing them from Hitler. They certainly didn't have the balls to rescue themselves. 
I do have some sympathy for people who have been on benefits long term and become virtually unemployable, because they were put in that position as part of a very cynical political game.
Brown basically made the welfare state a free for all, where anyone could tell a few porkies, or have a few kids, and get a monthly cheque bigger than the pay cheque of the average person in work.
Once in that system with little hope of escape, they were trapped in the classic Socialist trap, where the state takes care of you, the state controls everything, you have no ambition, genuine pride, no reason to want to better yourself etc. etc.
The only thing you need to do is vote Labour at every election and you don't have to worry about anything ever again.
I would like to see the Govt actually create jobs for disabled people where they could learn some skills and take some pride in earning their way in the world.
Istr there was some such scheme but Osborne withdrew funding ?
I'm mildly disabled but have worked all my life. Stephen Hawking is terribly physically disabled, but blessed with an IQ in 4 figures, he has worked all his life.
If the opportunities exist, most disabled people could do some kind of work.
To just assume they cant and pay them to sit at home, is an insult to them imo.
Of course, if people are very seriously disabled or in very poor health we as a society should take car of them. If someone who has worked for many years suddenly loses their job, they shouldn't starve. They should have food, heat, shelter and support to get back into employment.
However, when we have the usual suspects  screaming from the rooftops because welfare is limited to less than £600 pw, per household, when the vast majority of working households don't have that amount coming in, then we really are in la la land.

I would email this advice to a certain Mr D. Davis. He may as well try it and see what happens.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Brown basically made the welfare state a free for all, where anyone could tell a few porkies, or have a few kids, and get a monthly cheque bigger than the pay cheque of the average person in work.
Once in that system with little hope of escape, they were trapped in the classic Socialist trap, where the state takes care of you, the state controls everything, you have no ambition, genuine pride, no reason to want to better yourself etc. etc.
The only thing you need to do is vote Labour at every election and you don't have to worry about anything ever again.

Tax Credits introduced by Brown which cost the Treasury about £30-40 billion a year are a good example of this where the taxpayer are effectively subsidising businesses wage bill.  There is no incentive for any company to give any meaningful pay rise as they know that the government will top up peoples income, and big business in particular have ruthlessly exploited this situation.   Now that so many people rely on in work benefits, it would be political suicide for any political party to abolish Tax Credits. 

I'm not a big fan of tax credits. If a company is unable or unwilling to pay a living wage to it's employeees then it is simply not a viable business.

The downside being if the government removed tax credits unemployment and unemployment payments would rise.

Dilemma. I feel the 'working poor' always end up with the shitty end of the stick.

[Entwood]

Brown basically made the welfare state a free for all, where anyone could tell a few porkies, or have a few kids, and get a monthly cheque bigger than the pay cheque of the average person in work.
Once in that system with little hope of escape, they were trapped in the classic Socialist trap, where the state takes care of you, the state controls everything, you have no ambition, genuine pride, no reason to want to better yourself etc. etc.
The only thing you need to do is vote Labour at every election and you don't have to worry about anything ever again.

Tax Credits introduced by Brown which cost the Treasury about £30-40 billion a year are a good example of this where the taxpayer are effectively subsidising businesses wage bill.  There is no incentive for any company to give any meaningful pay rise as they know that the government will top up peoples income, and big business in particular have ruthlessly exploited this situation.   Now that so many people rely on in work benefits, it would be political suicide for any political party to abolish Tax Credits. 

I'm not a big fan of tax credits. If a company is unable or unwilling to pay a living wage to it's employeees then it is simply not a viable business.

The downside being if the government removed tax credits unemployment and unemployment payments would rise.

Dilemma. I feel the 'working poor' always end up with the shitty end of the stick.

Simple solution ... tax credits payable for a limited, set, period of time, after which the employer MUST pay the total amount (pay + tax credit) the employee was getting for at least twice the length of time the tax credit was claimed.

Would allow companies a period of time to get established and "test" any worker, and then give more permanent employment to the worker. Would prevent companies just taking on tax credit workers as "cheap labour" ... and would stop the employer getting rid of the worker as soon as the set period was up...

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Good idea, although in the current hysterical climate, it would probably be hailed as a new form of Nazism by the snowflakes.
Maybe the answer is to let TB cull the snowflakes and their ilk, and then sort our problems properly. 

[Mister Rog]

I seem to recall that some time ago there was a "no politics" rule on OOF,  that seems to have gone by the board   

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Politics used to cause huge arguments, with lots of dummy spitting, toys out of the pram, members leaving etc etc.
I was as guilty of anyone else of letting things get out of hand, and taking it all too personally.
Nowadays, it seems we can discuss things in a more calm fashion without all the ballyhoo. Lets hope it continues. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Way back in the seventies the government of the day rolled out a scheme called YTS......youth training scheme. For 16-18 year olds if memory serves.

Rogue employers loved it because it gave them  access to free labour for the six month period of the scheme. It was usually around the six month period the employer would suddenly find their employee (who they paid SFA) was actually a bone idle work shy ne'er do well and would be dismissed.

They would then hire another innocent victim for six months unpaid work.

 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I went on a YTS course in the 70,s, I lasted one day, walked out and found a real job. It was a shite job, but a real one. 
Tbh though, despite a degree of abuse by rogues being inevitable with any scheme like this - its better than having the nations youths sat on their arse playing computer games, while the taxpayer pays for their ciggies and dope.
Those with a little bit of pride and ambition could graft, prove themselves and make employers want to keep them on.
Those without these attributes can be sent by the coachload to visit TB in Brackley. 

[Mr Gav]

I started my apprenticeship on a YTS in the early eighties as did many others, first year paid by the Government and then taken on for the following two and a half years if you were good enough.

It was a far better system than the NVQ f**k up that exists now!

[Rods2]

Brown basically made the welfare state a free for all, where anyone could tell a few porkies, or have a few kids, and get a monthly cheque bigger than the pay cheque of the average person in work.
Once in that system with little hope of escape, they were trapped in the classic Socialist trap, where the state takes care of you, the state controls everything, you have no ambition, genuine pride, no reason to want to better yourself etc. etc.
The only thing you need to do is vote Labour at every election and you don't have to worry about anything ever again.

Tax Credits introduced by Brown which cost the Treasury about £30-40 billion a year are a good example of this where the taxpayer are effectively subsidising businesses wage bill.  There is no incentive for any company to give any meaningful pay rise as they know that the government will top up peoples income, and big business in particular have ruthlessly exploited this situation.   Now that so many people rely on in work benefits, it would be political suicide for any political party to abolish Tax Credits. 

I'm not a big fan of tax credits. If a company is unable or unwilling to pay a living wage to it's employeees then it is simply not a viable business.

The downside being if the government removed tax credits unemployment and unemployment payments would rise.

Dilemma. I feel the 'working poor' always end up with the shitty end of the stick.

Simple solution ... tax credits payable for a limited, set, period of time, after which the employer MUST pay the total amount (pay + tax credit) the employee was getting for at least twice the length of time the tax credit was claimed.

Would allow companies a period of time to get established and "test" any worker, and then give more permanent employment to the worker. Would prevent companies just taking on tax credit workers as "cheap labour" ... and would stop the employer getting rid of the worker as soon as the set period was up...

Unfortunately, the tax paid part before the employer cost cuts in would be the length of employment or contract if it is cheaper to employ a new person in their place. The reason unemployment is so high in mainland Europe, especially youth unemployment is due to the cost of employing people and restrictive practices. What seems like a good idea, all too often falls foul of the law of unintended consequences.

Unskilled mass migration, since 1997, has contributed to unskilled / semi-skilled wages going down which have been topped-up with tax credits. Climate fraud and high energy costs have driven many medium one-to-many manufacturing businesses and jobs offshore which has contributed to wage deflation and falls in productivity. Brexit is the short term may cause a recession in 2019, but handled well with Free Trade Agreements and a non-EU tree hugger energy policy it could make the UK a good manufacturing base for Europe with more higher paying jobs.

[Lincs Robert]

I don't like Violence, but since there is direct correlation at least 9850 sick and disabled have died since (and as a direct result of) the Bastard Tories brought in changes to sickness benefits, and the way that they are assessed as fit for work or placed in a work group.
I often rather wish scum like May and Johnson were rounded up and shot, but that just isn't what we British do. No we attend a party conference, getting through security without a problem because we don't have a gun in our bag, and politely hand a fake P45 to the prime minister, who hasn't a oppsing clue what it's like to live in the real world.

I think handing her a bag of burning dog turd would have been more appropriate.

Charming

[omegod]

I don't like Violence, but since there is direct correlation at least 9850 sick and disabled have died since (and as a direct result of) the Bastard Tories brought in changes to sickness benefits, and the way that they are assessed as fit for work or placed in a work group.
I often rather wish scum like May and Johnson were rounded up and shot, but that just isn't what we British do. No we attend a party conference, getting through security without a problem because we don't have a gun in our bag, and politely hand a fake P45 to the prime minister, who hasn't a oppsing clue what it's like to live in the real world.

I think handing her a bag of burning dog turd would have been more appropriate.

Charming

I'd happily light the bag of turd !

[New POD]

I don't like Violence, but since there is direct correlation at least 9850 sick and disabled have died since (and as a direct result of) the Bastard Tories brought in changes to sickness benefits, and the way that they are assessed as fit for work or placed in a work group.
I often rather wish scum like May and Johnson were rounded up and shot, but that just isn't what we British do. No we attend a party conference, getting through security without a problem because we don't have a gun in our bag, and politely hand a fake P45 to the prime minister, who hasn't a oppsing clue what it's like to live in the real world.

I think handing her a bag of burning dog turd would have been more appropriate.

Charming

I'd happily light the bag of turd !

Even posh scousers like you hate the Tories ? I find that hard to believe 

I'm not getting sucked in to this argument but would request any people who are fortunately " distanced " from the harsh realities of the current benefit system find and watch this film, I Daniel Blake,  if anything it's got much harsher since it was made   

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5168192/

I cried at that film, during the "Food Bank Scene" because that's what it's like

My wife works on reception at the CAB in a Seaside town at the top end of the Merseyrail Northern Line. Just one day a week.
 
That's all her emotions can cope with. 

There are alot of people on the bones of their arses and it's those unable to fight back that end up dead (or worse)

[STEMO]

My missus cried at that scene as well.
The problem is an age old one. We all know someone on benefits who is ‘taking the piss’, claiming when they are quite capable of working, or feigning illness. Trouble is, the Tory governments way of dealing with that is to treat everyone as if they fall into those categories, a catch-all that leaves poor, sick people in a desperate situation. The assessment system for folk who are ill and, indeed, the people who implement that system, treat everyone with an air of suspicion and with a total lack of respect. This attitude is well deserved by some but, I think, not by most.

[Doctor Gollum]

Families could be alot more forthcoming re support for relatives needing it...

Other countries culturally have far more respect for the extended family rather than the prevalent expectation that the government,  ie us the tax payers, picking up the pieces and the cost