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Author Topic: Hole in cill pre MOT  (Read 621 times)

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terry paget

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Hole in cill pre MOT
« on: 04 October 2017, 20:03:27 »

2.6 petrol manula saloon
Daughter Catherine brought her car home for MOT recently. It drives perfectly, all electrics work, exhaust is fine. I was putting on a better set of wheels and tyres, and thought I would check the cills for holes at the point by the rear wheel jacking points where testers attack with picks. Offside was fine, I wirebrushed it and undersealed it, but the nearside was not so good. I removed the cill cover and wirebrushed it. Please advise how I should proceed from here.
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Migv6

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #1 on: 04 October 2017, 20:06:04 »

The only answer is to cut out the rust and weld new metal in its place.
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Entwood

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #2 on: 04 October 2017, 20:08:46 »


<snip>

 Please advise how I should proceed from here.


Trip to a friendly welder for removal of rotten metal and replacement with new ... the only way to sort that problem. I had both sides done on mine 2 years ago .. 600 but that was for complete new cills both sides. Not purchased ones, he fabricated them himself.

beaten to it ....by migv6 ... again .....  :-\
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VXL V6

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #3 on: 04 October 2017, 20:27:54 »

I bought some replacement sills from Cars2 and Daz just cut the bits off he required to replace the rusty sections he cut out.  :y
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #4 on: 04 October 2017, 21:10:56 »

Just had the same situation as I described in another post, the car was potentially a candidate for the scrappy as the rust damage was extensive, and although the guy who did the repairs was old school and had the skills to do a really excellent and hopefully permanent repair,the bill was  eye watering and has made me realise that I could be spending my hard earned elswhere ::)
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terry paget

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #5 on: 04 October 2017, 21:53:01 »

Thanks for all the advice. I was hoping I could put on a patch on the area visible by the jacking point, as the MOT tester did on my 3.2, both sides, for 300. 600 would buy me another Omega. Below I depict the 3.2 hole. There were other holes in the 3.2 cill, but a\ll they patched was the bit by the jacking point.

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #6 on: 04 October 2017, 21:56:26 »

I guess it depends on how long you wish to keep the car, I did mine the "expensive" way because getting another omega that runs as well on LPG would be impossible, and the cost of converting a non-LPG to LPG would be a lot more than 600, so mines a "keeper" at the moment .... (although shes being a pain right now .. we'll hopefully soon get her better .. :) )
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Nick W

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #7 on: 04 October 2017, 22:56:40 »

Terry, your chances of paying 600 for an Omega that doesn't look like that are very poor. Fix what you have(fitting a complete sill isn't much more work than an MOT lashup) or move onto newer cars that aren't as crusty.
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #8 on: 05 October 2017, 00:06:16 »

My answer was to buy a MIG welder and teach myself to weld. Not to a really high standard, but good enough for under car repairs.
As Webby says "A grinder & paint, can make a welder what he aint."  ;)
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #9 on: 05 October 2017, 06:11:02 »

Thank you gentlemen. Buying a MIG welder and teaching myself to use it is my preferred option. What was the welder you recommended recently, Nick? Is it reasonable to buy a welder, read the instructions that come with it, and teach myself how to do it, or do I need a college course?
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #10 on: 05 October 2017, 08:21:11 »

Go old skool, bit of cardboard, some p38 bit of filler and then slap undersill everywhere. :y
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #11 on: 05 October 2017, 11:33:14 »

Go old skool, bit of cardboard, some p38 bit of filler and then slap undersill everywhere. :y

Depends if he's willing to do that to the car his daughter (and possibly grandchildren) are running around in... It'll only get worse and there's a good reason it is a prescribed area  ;)

At least use chemical metal if you're going to bodge it
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terry paget

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #12 on: 05 October 2017, 13:57:49 »

Terry, your chances of paying 600 for an Omega that doesn't look like that are very poor. Fix what you have(fitting a complete sill isn't much more work than an MOT lashup) or move onto newer cars that aren't as crusty.
Fair comment Nick, but there are some rust free cars out there, trouble is spotting them. I have 2 good 1999 estates costing (305 and 257), and a 2.2 saloon that cost 190 that's also pretty good. Are estates in general better for rust than saloons? On e-bay all I have to go on is the rear wheel arches in the pictures, what the vendor tells me, and the length of MOT. Have any menbers any more suggestions?
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Migv6

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #13 on: 05 October 2017, 14:05:43 »

My welder is a Clark 135 T, as recommended by TB and others on OOF. I'm glad I bought it as its quite an easy machine to learn with and produce acceptable results.  :y
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Nick W

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #14 on: 05 October 2017, 18:30:41 »

Thank you gentlemen. Buying a MIG welder and teaching myself to use it is my preferred option. What was the welder you recommended recently, Nick? Is it reasonable to buy a welder, read the instructions that come with it, and teach myself how to do it, or do I need a college course?


That's how I did it, but I had been using a stick welder before. Even with that experience, lots of practice was necessary before I considered welding the car.


A college course isn't necessary, but half an hours instruction from somebody who knows what they're doing will considerably reduce your learning curve. You will need to buy a sheet the same thickness as the car; buying thicker than that is a waste of time and money as you will still need to practice on the correct size. If you can get it sheared into 6"(ish) squares do so.


What else do you have in the way of tools? You won't do any electric welding without an angle grinder and an assortment of cutting/sanding discs. You MUST use PPE; a proper welding mask, gloves, safety goggles, and thick cotton overalls are required, and a good large fire extinguisher is a damn good idea. Using the disposable gas cylinders is expensive, and they don't make for very good welds; a proper cylinder and regulator is likely to cost another 150.


My welder is a semi-industrial machine, and would cost over a grand to replace so I can't really advise on a machine. I would be looking at buying an inverter based machine if I had to buy a new welder.


Realistically, you're looking at spending 500 before you put a torch anywhere near a car. Unless you're expecting to use the tools a lot, I would suggest that's not good value. The <<200 machines will do what you need, but not in a beginner's hands.
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migmog

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #15 on: 05 October 2017, 18:56:35 »

not easy to tell from the pic but it doesn't look too bad.  the main concern is the split along the seam, you will need to weld a plate over it.   the blister (probably hole)  looks minor, you could just clean up and fill with an epoxy filler.   

so i would mechanically and chemically remove the rust to get a feel for what is solid and most of all to get a clean rust free surface to weld to.  fertan chemical is probably the easiest to use as it is water based and doesn't dry, or an acid like Hydrochloric Acid (Muriatic Acid) while it is still legal.

i have an inverter mig welder but for that small section i would get out my stick/tig/plasma machine as it is less hassle to set up. you don't need a continuous neat weld, as a rough guide 1 inch of good weld holds a tonne.  then grind it neat and treat the inside liberally with penetrating rust treatment and the outside with an anti rust primer, either water based like vactan or preferably solvent based like fortress,  then underseal.
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TheBoy

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #16 on: 05 October 2017, 19:26:32 »

I bought a pair of sills for the Bullet, with the intention of Mr DTM to cut bits out and use bits of the replacement sills to weld back in, but it never happened before the car went.

The sills were about 40 delivered for the pair IIRC, worth it IMHO to save the effort fabricating a sheet the right shape.


I was recommended the Clarke 135 by MDTM, and find it an easy machine to work with...  ...my tip being whack the gas right up to max, ignoring the settings suggested in the booklet. It does use a fair amount of CO2, but just replace with bigger cylinder when time comes.

I think I probably have the capability to weld bits of sill in, but lack the confidence to do so.
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #17 on: 05 October 2017, 20:40:38 »

Whacking the regulator up is important as Ive discovered that no gas actually comes out of it until it is set to number 4 (5 is maximum).
I plan on replacing the reg. with a better quality one at some point.
So far Ive got on ok with the little disposable gas bottles, but they aren't great value. On the other hand, if you only do a bit of welding once or twice a year,you have to take into account the cost and size of the large bottles.
My welder came with gauntlets and a basic mask. I wasn't keen on the mask so bought an automatic self darkening helmet.
The whole lot came in at just over 300 iirc.
I already had an angle grinder, and so far haven't bothered with an apron or thick overalls. I just wear old thick clothes and swear a lot if anything gets past them.  ;D
Again, it all depends on how often your likely to use it, and to some degree your attitude to the risk of a minor burn.
No excuse for risking your eyes though, so a proper protection is a must.
The instruction book for the welder was pretty good and got me started, and TB also emailed me some further stuff which helped even more.
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ajsphead

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #18 on: 06 October 2017, 07:38:15 »

Clarke 135 looks just like my Cebora, if so a good basic MIG welder. Mine cost me a donation to the lady across the road who'd just got divorced and was chucking out ex husband's stuff.

I was taught welding skills by a mate who did up land rovers for a living and I learned that basic MIG welding is a matter of power, wire speed, wire tension and the pace at which you work all in balance. A good argon/CO2 shroud goes a long way to keeping it neat too.

If it's any help I get 2.2L gas bottles from Telford welding and can do a fair bit with one bottle. Miggy currently on 3 wheels again whilst I weld new sections into rear inner arch behind plastic rear arch liner and dissolved flange behind bumper. Car is mechanically very strong with donkeys years left in it but would be on the scrapheap if I couldn't weld.

Ultimately a much cheaper solution than trying to replace it.
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Migv6

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #19 on: 06 October 2017, 17:53:41 »

Clarke 135 looks just like my Cebora, if so a good basic MIG welder. Mine cost me a donation to the lady across the road who'd just got divorced and was chucking out ex husband's stuff.

I was taught welding skills by a mate who did up land rovers for a living and I learned that basic MIG welding is a matter of power, wire speed, wire tension and the pace at which you work all in balance. A good argon/CO2 shroud goes a long way to keeping it neat too.

If it's any help I get 2.2L gas bottles from Telford welding and can do a fair bit with one bottle. Miggy currently on 3 wheels again whilst I weld new sections into rear inner arch behind plastic rear arch liner and dissolved flange behind bumper. Car is mechanically very strong with donkeys years left in it but would be on the scrapheap if I couldn't weld.

Ultimately a much cheaper solution than trying to replace it.

Do tell.  :D ;D ;D
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terry paget

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #20 on: 07 October 2017, 08:39:48 »

I bought a pair of sills for the Bullet, with the intention of Mr DTM to cut bits out and use bits of the replacement sills to weld back in, but it never happened before the car went.

The sills were about 40 delivered for the pair IIRC, worth it IMHO to save the effort fabricating a sheet the right shape.


I was recommended the Clarke 135 by MDTM, and find it an easy machine to work with...  ...my tip being whack the gas right up to max, ignoring the settings suggested in the booklet. It does use a fair amount of CO2, but just replace with bigger cylinder when time comes.

I think I probably have the capability to weld bits of sill in, but lack the confidence to do so.
Where did you but the sills, TB?
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #21 on: 07 October 2017, 15:07:54 »

I bought some replacement sills from Cars2 and Daz just cut the bits off he required to replace the rusty sections he cut out.  :y
Could you give me a reference to cars2 please?
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #23 on: 07 October 2017, 15:23:56 »

My welder is a Clark 135 T, as recommended by TB and others on OOF. I'm glad I bought it as its quite an easy machine to learn with and produce acceptable results.  :y
Is that the Clarke 135TE welder page  on current Machine Mart catalogue, price 299.98 inc. vat?
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terry paget

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #25 on: 07 October 2017, 16:00:30 »

I bought a pair of sills for the Bullet, with the intention of Mr DTM to cut bits out and use bits of the replacement sills to weld back in, but it never happened before the car went.

The sills were about 40 delivered for the pair IIRC, worth it IMHO to save the effort fabricating a sheet the right shape.


I was recommended the Clarke 135 by MDTM, and find it an easy machine to work with...  ...my tip being whack the gas right up to max, ignoring the settings suggested in the booklet. It does use a fair amount of CO2, but just replace with bigger cylinder when time comes.

I think I probably have the capability to weld bits of sill in, but lack the confidence to do so.
Have you still got the sills, but no need of them any more?
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #26 on: 07 October 2017, 17:53:09 »

My welder is a Clark 135 T, as recommended by TB and others on OOF. I'm glad I bought it as its quite an easy machine to learn with and produce acceptable results.  :y
Is that the Clarke 135TE welder page  on current Machine Mart catalogue, price 299.98 inc. vat?

It is indeed, although I bought it from somewhere else for about 40 cheaper, but I cant remember where from tbh.
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terry paget

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #27 on: 07 October 2017, 19:03:32 »

My welder is a Clark 135 T, as recommended by TB and others on OOF. I'm glad I bought it as its quite an easy machine to learn with and produce acceptable results.  :y
Is that the Clarke 135TE welder page  on current Machine Mart catalogue, price 299.98 inc. vat?

It is indeed, although I bought it from somewhere else for about 40 cheaper, but I cant remember where from tbh.
Machine Mart used to have VAT free days. Do they still have them?
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #28 on: 07 October 2017, 19:51:50 »

Clarke 135 looks just like my Cebora, if so a good basic MIG welder. Mine cost me a donation to the lady across the road who'd just got divorced and was chucking out ex husband's stuff.

I was taught welding skills by a mate who did up land rovers for a living and I learned that basic MIG welding is a matter of power, wire speed, wire tension and the pace at which you work all in balance. A good argon/CO2 shroud goes a long way to keeping it neat too.

If it's any help I get 2.2L gas bottles from Telford welding and can do a fair bit with one bottle. Miggy currently on 3 wheels again whilst I weld new sections into rear inner arch behind plastic rear arch liner and dissolved flange behind bumper. Car is mechanically very strong with donkeys years left in it but would be on the scrapheap if I couldn't weld.

Ultimately a much cheaper solution than trying to replace it.

Do tell.  :D ;D ;D
I couldn't just take a prefectly good functioning welder so the donation was 20 I think. Didn't donate anything else.
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #29 on: 08 October 2017, 18:53:33 »

I bought a pair of sills for the Bullet, with the intention of Mr DTM to cut bits out and use bits of the replacement sills to weld back in, but it never happened before the car went.

The sills were about 40 delivered for the pair IIRC, worth it IMHO to save the effort fabricating a sheet the right shape.


I was recommended the Clarke 135 by MDTM, and find it an easy machine to work with...  ...my tip being whack the gas right up to max, ignoring the settings suggested in the booklet. It does use a fair amount of CO2, but just replace with bigger cylinder when time comes.

I think I probably have the capability to weld bits of sill in, but lack the confidence to do so.
Have you still got the sills, but no need of them any more?
They are in the roof of the garage currently.  I thought they would be worth keeping for TBE, as no doubt a time will come when that needs them.

I ordered them from the place VXL V6 recommended, but took ages to come, as they were waiting for them to be made.


If you are really desperate, timewise, and are passing this way, you can have these if you replace them. Sadly, too problematic to post. So I'd recommend trying to get some from place VXL V6 used, and only come here if they are slow to dispatch.
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #30 on: 08 October 2017, 22:35:38 »

I bought a pair of sills for the Bullet, with the intention of Mr DTM to cut bits out and use bits of the replacement sills to weld back in, but it never happened before the car went.

The sills were about 40 delivered for the pair IIRC, worth it IMHO to save the effort fabricating a sheet the right shape.


I was recommended the Clarke 135 by MDTM, and find it an easy machine to work with...  ...my tip being whack the gas right up to max, ignoring the settings suggested in the booklet. It does use a fair amount of CO2, but just replace with bigger cylinder when time comes.

I think I probably have the capability to weld bits of sill in, but lack the confidence to do so.
Have you still got the sills, but no need of them any more?
They are in the roof of the garage currently.  I thought they would be worth keeping for TBE, as no doubt a time will come when that needs them.

I ordered them from the place VXL V6 recommended, but took ages to come, as they were waiting for them to be made.


If you are really desperate, timewise, and are passing this way, you can have these if you replace them. Sadly, too problematic to post. So I'd recommend trying to get some from place VXL V6 used, and only come here if they are slow to dispatch.
Thanks for the offer, I may hold you to it. I tried to order some tonight and their web site said they were closed at the moment, so I will try again later. I play golf in Didcot every Friday so I could collect and return if necessary. I will try to order again tomorrow.
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #31 on: 09 October 2017, 17:48:26 »

I can likely get them to Oxford with a bit of notice, as the Outlaws are there
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #32 on: 09 October 2017, 19:25:28 »

I can likely get them to Oxford with a bit of notice, as the Outlaws are there
Thanks, that would be great. Son Ben has a mate who welds cars for a living and who has agreed to take on this job and show me how it's done He owns no tools, so I have to buy a welder and whatever else we need. I presume you visit the outlaws occasionally and could leave the sills there. How soon might this be?
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #33 on: 09 October 2017, 19:29:41 »

Today caz2 e-mailed me, said they would be ordering some more sills in about 3 weeks time, should they order a pair for me. I said yes. It sounds like they will be some time.
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #34 on: 09 October 2017, 19:33:56 »

Yes, they take a bit of time to arrive but save you having to fabricate from sheets of metal.
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #35 on: 10 October 2017, 09:43:08 »

If you want me to I can get them to Horspath (outskirts of Oxford) by Friday evening
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terry paget

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #36 on: 10 October 2017, 09:56:33 »

If you want me to I can get them to Horspath (outskirts of Oxford) by Friday evening
That would be excellent, though I would not collect until the following Friday. I plan to collect Friday morning before golf. After golf I visit an old friend, then play table tennis at Culham Laboratory, then go to the Cherry Tree, Steventon, for a meal amd a chat, leaving about 10pm for home. If they could be at Horspath by Friday 20th that would be great.
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #37 on: 10 October 2017, 19:04:11 »

I shall ask the questions, and see what I can do
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #38 on: 10 October 2017, 22:34:53 »

I shall ask the questions, and see what I can do
Thanks. Carz tell me they will advise cost and get delivery details when they next have stock, but it sounds like it could be a few weeks.
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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #39 on: 10 October 2017, 22:44:50 »

If you want me to I can get them to Horspath (outskirts of Oxford) by Friday evening
That would be excellent, though I would not collect until the following Friday. I plan to collect Friday morning before golf. After golf I visit an old friend, then play table tennis at Culham Laboratory, then go to the Cherry Tree, Steventon, for a meal amd a chat, leaving about 10pm for home. If they could be at Horspath by Friday 20th that would be great.

A long drive for a game of golf Terry. :o :y
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TheBoy

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Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
« Reply #40 on: 11 October 2017, 17:49:28 »

If you want me to I can get them to Horspath (outskirts of Oxford) by Friday evening
That would be excellent, though I would not collect until the following Friday. I plan to collect Friday morning before golf. After golf I visit an old friend, then play table tennis at Culham Laboratory, then go to the Cherry Tree, Steventon, for a meal amd a chat, leaving about 10pm for home. If they could be at Horspath by Friday 20th that would be great.

A long drive for a game of golf Terry. :o :y
I've probably walked as far from the fairway looking for some of my balls :D
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I don't tolerate bickering, and I'm always grumpy.
And Lizzie Zoom says I'm a heartless bastid...and she's absolutely correct!
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