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[Rods2]

"Expert who co-authored a detailed report for Britain’s Department of Health (1999) into London’s traffic pollution pours cold water on Mayor of London Sadiq Khan’s latest push to ban diesel cars."

"Dismayed that Mayor Khan is either scientifically ill-informed or more likely pursuing a tax raising strategy by deceit, Hoskins emphasized that since the publication of his 1999 report  “new diesel technologies have substantially reduced the problem.”Hoskin adds, “NOx chemically breaks down within a day or so and thus rapidly disappears as a pollutant.”"

"Rather than seeking to whip up yet another bogus environmental scare story Hoskins urges political figures like London’s Mayor Khan to take a balanced view of the proven scientific evidence."

https://principia-scientific.org/londons-latest-diesel-traffic-pollution-scare-exposed/

Who would have guessed that a Liebour tree hugging politician would use fake news to raise taxes, where they can always spend waste our hard earned money, rather than letting us better spend it ourselves.

[STEMO]

It’s only southern softies who will have to pay it, they can well afford it. 

[BazaJT]

A politician "cherry picking" to suit their own agenda?Well golly who'd have thunked it

[Varche]

NOx breaks down in a day?

Msybe but it is being replaced at an ever greater rate. More cars and crucially more jams.

Not trying to be a tree hugger .

[STEMO]

NOx breaks down in a day?

Msybe but it is being replaced at an ever greater rate. More cars and crucially more jams.

Not trying to be a tree hugger .

You are talking perfect sense, Varche. I gave up on the dinosaurs that frequent car forums a long time ago.

[Bigron]

A politician "cherry picking" to suit their own agenda?Well golly who'd have thunked it

Is my memory deceiving me or did our beloved former PM promice to "end the war on the motorist"? Mea culpa for believing a politician's promise! 

Ron.

[Lizzie Zoom]

So an "expert" reckons, in so many words, that the statements about diesel vehicles causing too much pollution are far fetched.

Has that expert really been in a city like London, like average people like me,and witnessed the filthy exhaust fumes of the diesel busses and lorries, let alone the fumes from all vehicles?

So he reckons no one is taking properly into account the "benefits" of our transport in a city like London. Benefits?!  What children having breathing issues, let alone adults suffering early onset of health issues is a benefit?  London failing to meet international standards of limiting pollution that you CAN see let alone smell in the air is a "benefit"?

This prat no doubt would have said the same about the "benefits" of steam trains, coal fires, and coal fed polluting industry that regularly gave London it's killer smogs in the 1950's that I witnessed as a child every time we visited my East Ender Nan. The "benefits" to life and industry, like cigarettes, in the 1950's that killed tens of thousands. It was then that brave politicians, like the Mayor of London now, that stood up and forced through the Clean Air Act and gave everyone a kinder environment than we had ever known before.

Yes, we love our vehicles, just like I love steam railway engines, but I am intelligent enough to know the time has come for major changes again to our modes of transport. Only the dinasours, living in the past, will complain about what the Mayor is trying to do.

[Doctor Gollum]

Don't tell me, you resumé includes polution studies with political prejudice...

[Sir Tigger KC]

Think of the poor little children. 

[Rods2]

So an "expert" reckons, in so many words, that the statements about diesel vehicles causing too much pollution are far fetched.

Has that expert really been in a city like London, like average people like me,and witnessed the filthy exhaust fumes of the diesel busses and lorries, let alone the fumes from all vehicles?

So he reckons no one is taking properly into account the "benefits" of our transport in a city like London. Benefits?!  What children having breathing issues, let alone adults suffering early onset of health issues is a benefit?  London failing to meet international standards of limiting pollution that you CAN see let alone smell in the air is a "benefit"?

This prat no doubt would have said the same about the "benefits" of steam trains, coal fires, and coal fed polluting industry that regularly gave London it's killer smogs in the 1950's that I witnessed as a child every time we visited my East Ender Nan. The "benefits" to life and industry, like cigarettes, in the 1950's that killed tens of thousands. It was then that brave politicians, like the Mayor of London now, that stood up and forced through the Clean Air Act and gave everyone a kinder environment than we had ever known before.

Yes, we love our vehicles, just like I love steam railway engines, but I am intelligent enough to know the time has come for major changes again to our modes of transport. Only the dinasours, living in the past, will complain about what the Mayor is trying to do.

Typical socialist snowflake answer from somebody who seems to fall hook line and sinker for every political soundbite and tree-hugger lobbying false narrative and that is why I deliberately pick up and write on here contrary (and often unfashionable) views on things to add balance, make people think in this false consensual propaganda driven sheeple world.

Now I know facts are awkward tricky things in this post-fact, fake news, daily sound bite world but BEFORE I believe or write on a subject I do something unfashionable I FACT CHECK, so here are the pollution facts from the DEFRA website, if you look at the charts apart from NOX which has stayed about the same ALL other air pollution levels have fallen. The reason the opposite is reported is that this is the EU narrative, very much driven by the powerful hard left-wing German green lobby. By far the biggest form of fatal air pollution that on average affects 1 in 4 adults and knocks on average 10 years off their lives in the UK is a very expensive voluntary bad habit called smoking.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/610927/Air_Quality_National_Statistic_apr17_FINAL.pdf

For somebody that claims to be an academic, I suggest you apply a bit more of it, before dissing knowledgeable experts views on things unless you have written your own peer-reviewed papers on pollution that proves otherwise, if so, please enlighten us by placing the links to them on here?

[Andy B]

Was it here that I first saw this ...... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/how_toxic_is_your_car_exhaust    it's not what you'd first expect.

Emissions are what they want them to be ...... 

[Lizzie Zoom]

Oh yes, now the personal digs and insults when someone challenges your post!

Of all the millions who now recognise we must do far more to protective us, our cities and our planet, you are still prepared to insult those of us who hold that view after MUCH ACADEMIC reading.  You are not the only one who can study and read; many of us can and have studied far more than "evidence" you produce in this post.  That is why very learned leaders across the world are doing what they can to reduce pollution.  But of course on this car forum that counts for nothing!

Don't start a thread Rod and expect everyone to just blindly nod agreement with you, and when they argue throw insults.

[Doctor Gollum]

Don't tell me, you resumé includes polution studies without political prejudice...

Edited to correct autocorrelation

[Lizzie Zoom]

......Oh, just one more point Rod, never try and pretend you ever present an unbiased view supported by nothing but researched fact.  You do not, and your view, as in this thread is never "balanced".  You act as though you are presenting a lecture at Oxford, and not in reality to a very small "audience" on a car forum, so stop the "from a high" intellectual stance you try to cut with the condescending tone.

[Doctor Gollum]

Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle 

[Rods2]

......Oh, just one more point Rod, never try and pretend you ever present an unbiased view supported by nothing but researched fact.  You do not, and your view, as in this thread is never "balanced".  You act as though you are presenting a lecture at Oxford, and not in reality to a very small "audience" on a car forum, so stop the "from a high" intellectual stance you try to cut with the condescending tone.

A little different from usual where you normally call me by that Soviet term that all who disagree with you are ie. a "Nazi". Like I said earlier where you are disrespecting a professional's research get your facts right. If I'm wrong on something the law of holes kicks in and I'm a strong enough person and personality to say sorry and move on, you are sadly not.

Finally, I will damn well hang out and write where I like and what I like and as long as it is not illegal or hateful it is you with the problem, not me, get over it! Be it a little car forum (insult to all members is not missed by me) or the good following I have Twitter or where I've been featured in specialist magazines that is up to me. You don't I know my career or history, so all insults are a presumption by you. Chips and shoulders come to mind.

[zirk]

[Doctor Gollum]

Is that a sharing bucket?

[Rods2]

Feeling a bit peckish good man, am I allowed to join in?

[Rods2]

Is that a sharing bucket?

Make the most of it while you can! You know you and Lizzie will be having a not so quiet word with each other, as per normal, next week.

[TheBoy]

Children, debate away, but shy away from personal insults.


London's pollution can be dealt with easily by losing all the buses and black cabs. And trains, if they are as dirty as the old shite Chiltern use.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle 

Indeed DG, that may have been true in the past but now I recognise that this is only a car forum, not a lecture hall at uni, with indeed a limited interested audience in what is stated in "General Chat".   My input hopefully now is designed for this medium; simple, to the point, and usually based on my specialist subjects, naval, railway, Tudor and Victorian history.  I know anything to do with live politics can prove "difficult", so I restrict my input on this to only those topics raised by other members, like Rod, when I feel I really need to say whatever I have to say, like on the subject of this thread which I have had personal experience of from childhood to now, with the additional reading of academic papers, and past lecture input adding to my knowledge.

If the few members now contributing to this forum do not like this, well I'm sorry, but all of us have the right to express our views, but hopefully without the personal digs and insults I got from Rod; any creditable academic resits from that and accepts intellectual challenge.

[Lizzie Zoom]

......Oh, just one more point Rod, never try and pretend you ever present an unbiased view supported by nothing but researched fact.  You do not, and your view, as in this thread is never "balanced".  You act as though you are presenting a lecture at Oxford, and not in reality to a very small "audience" on a car forum, so stop the "from a high" intellectual stance you try to cut with the condescending tone.

A little different from usual where you normally call me by that Soviet term that all who disagree with you are ie. a "Nazi". Like I said earlier where you are disrespecting a professional's research get your facts right. If I'm wrong on something the law of holes kicks in and I'm a strong enough person and personality to say sorry and move on, you are sadly not.

Finally, I will damn well hang out and write where I like and what I like and as long as it is not illegal or hateful it is you with the problem, not me, get over it! Be it a little car forum (insult to all members is not missed by me) or the good following I have Twitter or where I've been featured in specialist magazines that is up to me. You don't I know my career or history, so all insults are a presumption by you. Chips and shoulders come to mind.

Get your facts right Rod, I have NEVER called you or anyone on here a Nazi.  I know exactly what a Nazi is so would never call anyone I have encountered on this Forum that as no one, so far, is!  If you do not like insults and want to be recognised as a serious "academic" why insult me in the first sentences of your post in response to mine...........and then your condescending comments also contained in that post aimed at me personally?

[Lizzie Zoom]

Children, debate away, but shy away from personal insults.


London's pollution can be dealt with easily by losing all the buses and black cabs. And trains, if they are as dirty as the old shite Chiltern use.

Exactly right on both points made TB!

Pollution in London is REAL and witnessed every day by those that live and work there, no matter what any rogue academic papers may claim

......and for Rod especially, read this based on research by Kings College London:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/15/nearly-9500-people-die-each-year-in-london-because-of-air-pollution-study

Not a problem eh?

[Doctor Gollum]

Ah, it's in the Guardian...

It must be true

[Andy B]

Nearly 9,500 people die each year in London because of air pollution ......

Nearly 9,500 people die early each year in London due to long-term exposure to air pollution,

Spot the difference between the headline & the article 

[STEMO]

The thing is, despite all the.....erm....discussions on the subject, from early deaths to back door taxes...it’s going to happen. In London soon, in the rest of this country and cities around Europe in the future.
Live with it and, if you have to travel by car into London, plan for it. No amount of hand wringing is going to change it.

[Varche]

Children, debate away, but shy away from personal insults.


London's pollution can be dealt with easily by losing all the buses and black cabs. And trains, if they are as dirty as the old shite Chiltern use.

Yes why arent the buses andcabs all electric ?

[Doctor Gollum]

Nearly 9,500 people die each year in London because of air pollution ......

Nearly 9,500 people die early each year in London due to long-term exposure to air pollution,

Spot the difference between the headline & the article 

And of those almost 9,500, how many don't claim benefits or live in poverty?

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

My views on derv being used in anything other than lorries, cement mixers, and narrow boats, are well documented.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

The thing is, despite all the.....erm....discussions on the subject, from early deaths to back door taxes...it’s going to happen. In London soon, in the rest of this country and cities around Europe in the future.
Live with it and, if you have to travel by car into London, plan for it. No amount of hand wringing is going to change it.

You miss the point Steve. If we can prove to ourselves its wrong, we can remain outraged about it for evermore. 

[Lizzie Zoom]

Ah, it's in the Guardian...

It must be true

It is not just the Guardian:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-09/london-activists-ramp-up-fight-against-deadly-air-pollution/8168076

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20664807

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nearly-9500-people-die-early-in-a-single-year-in-london-as-a-result-of-air-pollution-study-finds-10390729.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35629034

Yes, over different years, and not directly academic papers, but reports from those who have studied the same story; it remains the same!

Air pollution in London has definitely improved since the Victorian age and the period leading up to the 1950's, but it really needed to. We still are not there yet, with much more needing to be done to stop us all wrecking our human lives.

This is how it once was:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2012/dec/05/60-years-great-smog-london-in-pictures

Now we must bring the "Cleaner London" project bang up to date, as the Mayor of London is doing.  Why not?

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Ah, it's in the Guardian...

It must be true

It is not just the Guardian:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-09/london-activists-ramp-up-fight-against-deadly-air-pollution/8168076

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20664807

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nearly-9500-people-die-early-in-a-single-year-in-london-as-a-result-of-air-pollution-study-finds-10390729.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35629034

Yes, over different years, and not directly academic papers, but reports from those who have studied the same story; it remains the same!

Air pollution in London has definitely improved since the Victorian age and the period leading up to the 1950's, but it really needed to. We still are not there yet, with much more needing to be done to stop us all wrecking our human lives.

This is how it once was:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2012/dec/05/60-years-great-smog-london-in-pictures

Now we must bring the "Cleaner London" project bang up to date, as the Mayor of London is doing.  Why not?

Coal was everywhere back in the fifties, Lizzie.......as your links prove.

Looking on the bright side though coal gave paid employment to seven year old children during the earlier Victorian era. I believe that some are still missing.  

[Lizzie Zoom]

Ah, it's in the Guardian...

It must be true

It is not just the Guardian:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-09/london-activists-ramp-up-fight-against-deadly-air-pollution/8168076

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20664807

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nearly-9500-people-die-early-in-a-single-year-in-london-as-a-result-of-air-pollution-study-finds-10390729.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35629034

Yes, over different years, and not directly academic papers, but reports from those who have studied the same story; it remains the same!

Air pollution in London has definitely improved since the Victorian age and the period leading up to the 1950's, but it really needed to. We still are not there yet, with much more needing to be done to stop us all wrecking our human lives.

This is how it once was:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2012/dec/05/60-years-great-smog-london-in-pictures

Now we must bring the "Cleaner London" project bang up to date, as the Mayor of London is doing.  Why not?

Coal was everywhere back in the fifties, Lizzie.......as your links prove.

Looking on the bright side though coal gave paid employment to seven year old children during the earlier Victorian era. I believe that some are still missing.

Yes, coal was King and still a very crucial fuel in the 1950s for the fading Empire.  Tens of thousands, maybe a million or so (no one knows precisely during the 1800's as records were not generally kept)  died to produce this "gold". Just read this short account of the Durham mining area and you get a flavour of the true price of coal, including many child deaths - not forgetting the number killed by "environmental causes" away from the pits:

http://www.dmm.org.uk/pitwork/html/deaths.htm

Concentrate particularly on this piece within the overall document-

"A trapper, only 10 years old killed in an explosion.
A horse driver aged 11. Crushed by horse.
A driver, aged 14 fell off limmers and was crushed between the tubs and a door.
A token keeper aged 14. Crushed by surface wagons on branches.
A screenboy aged 12. Crushed by surface wagons.
A trapper aged 12. Crushed by tubs.
A driver aged 12. Horse fell on him.
A bank boy aged 11. Caught by cage.
A driver aged 12. Head crushed between tub top and a plank while riding on limmers.
A trapper aged 13. Head crushed between cage and bunton while riding to bank.
Boy aged 7, [Not Employed]. Run over by wagons while taking his father's dinner to the works.
An engine Lad aged 15. Wrapped around the winder, of an engine.
Tub Cleaner, aged 13. Fell down the shaft off a pumping engine.
Boy aged 14, drowned.
Boy, aged 7. Killed in an explosion.
Trapper , aged 9. Killed in an explosion.
Water Leader, aged 12. Fall of stone.
Heron, Henry Ord, 24 Sep 1903, aged 7.
Driver, aged 14. Crushed against wall by a horse.
Screen Boy, aged 15. Head crushed between a tub and screen legs ; too little room."

No doubt there were many who believed all this was very worthwhile for the "benefits" achieved!

That is why we must continue to clean up our act as humans for the sake of the future generations

[TD]

This is how it once was:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2012/dec/05/60-years-great-smog-london-in-pictures

Now we must bring the "Cleaner London" project bang up to date, as the Mayor of London is doing.  Why not?

Well, perhaps if it was still like that, that would certainly lift the burden on the NHS. We would also be paying less taxes as there would be far less OAP's in nursing/care homes 

[Lizzie Zoom]

This is how it once was:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2012/dec/05/60-years-great-smog-london-in-pictures

Now we must bring the "Cleaner London" project bang up to date, as the Mayor of London is doing.  Why not?

Well, perhaps if it was still like that, that would certainly lift the burden on the NHS. We would also be paying less taxes as there would be far less OAP's in nursing/care homes 

Euthanasia?  Now that is a topic that will make some boil!  Even I will not go there!

[TD]

This is how it once was:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2012/dec/05/60-years-great-smog-london-in-pictures

Now we must bring the "Cleaner London" project bang up to date, as the Mayor of London is doing.  Why not?

Well, perhaps if it was still like that, that would certainly lift the burden on the NHS. We would also be paying less taxes as there would be far less OAP's in nursing/care homes 

Euthanasia?  Now that is a topic that will make some boil!  Even I will not go there!

No I didn't mean that....I was suggesting that the smog did the culling 

[Lizzie Zoom]

This is how it once was:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2012/dec/05/60-years-great-smog-london-in-pictures

Now we must bring the "Cleaner London" project bang up to date, as the Mayor of London is doing.  Why not?

Well, perhaps if it was still like that, that would certainly lift the burden on the NHS. We would also be paying less taxes as there would be far less OAP's in nursing/care homes 

Euthanasia?  Now that is a topic that will make some boil!  Even I will not go there!

No I didn't mean that....I was suggesting that the smog did the culling 

But that is the thing.  The smog filled the lungs and created long, lingering illnesses with uncontrolled coughing and the bringing up blood in the last stages before the eventual death; it was like a man made mass euthanasia with few working class living beyond 40.  Even in the 1950's, with of course the effects of heavy smoking affecting many,  I remember so many men I used to see as a child that were coughing up their lungs on a regular basis, and spitting profusely to clear their filthy phlegm.  Some of course of these "old" men were survivors of Great War gas attacks, others were suffering from TB, but most were suffering from the terrible air pollution that affected us all, even outside cities like London, that as I previously stated, I often visited to see my nan.

In other words, the NHS today would be totally swamped with these very ill people well beyond the current level of cancer patients.

[TheBoy]

If London kills you, don't go there.

See, another major thing cured by President TB.

[STEMO]

This is how it once was:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2012/dec/05/60-years-great-smog-london-in-pictures

Now we must bring the "Cleaner London" project bang up to date, as the Mayor of London is doing.  Why not?

Well, perhaps if it was still like that, that would certainly lift the burden on the NHS. We would also be paying less taxes as there would be far less OAP's in nursing/care homes 

Euthanasia?  Now that is a topic that will make some boil!  Even I will not go there!

No I didn't mean that....I was suggesting that the smog did the culling 

But that is the thing.  The smog filled the lungs and created long, lingering illnesses with uncontrolled coughing and the bringing up blood in the last stages before the eventual death; it was like a man made mass euthanasia with few working class living beyond 40.  Even in the 1950's, with of course the effects of heavy smoking affecting many,  I remember so many men I used to see as a child that were coughing up their lungs on a regular basis, and spitting profusely to clear their filthy phlegm.  Some of course of these "old" men were survivors of Great War gas attacks, others were suffering from TB, but most were suffering from the terrible air pollution that affected us all, even outside cities like London, that as I previously stated, I often visited to see my nan.

In other words, the NHS today would be totally swamped with these very ill people well beyond the current level of cancer patients.

Suffering from TB? There are a few on here doing that. 

[Lizzie Zoom]

This is how it once was:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2012/dec/05/60-years-great-smog-london-in-pictures

Now we must bring the "Cleaner London" project bang up to date, as the Mayor of London is doing.  Why not?

Well, perhaps if it was still like that, that would certainly lift the burden on the NHS. We would also be paying less taxes as there would be far less OAP's in nursing/care homes 

Euthanasia?  Now that is a topic that will make some boil!  Even I will not go there!

No I didn't mean that....I was suggesting that the smog did the culling 

But that is the thing.  The smog filled the lungs and created long, lingering illnesses with uncontrolled coughing and the bringing up blood in the last stages before the eventual death; it was like a man made mass euthanasia with few working class living beyond 40.  Even in the 1950's, with of course the effects of heavy smoking affecting many,  I remember so many men I used to see as a child that were coughing up their lungs on a regular basis, and spitting profusely to clear their filthy phlegm.  Some of course of these "old" men were survivors of Great War gas attacks, others were suffering from TB, but most were suffering from the terrible air pollution that affected us all, even outside cities like London, that as I previously stated, I often visited to see my nan.

In other words, the NHS today would be totally swamped with these very ill people well beyond the current level of cancer patients.

Suffering from TB? There are a few on here doing that.