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[BazaJT]

On C4 last night a documentary titled Holocaust:The Revenge Plot.It seems that in 1946 a group of 50 Jews in Germany calling themselves The Avengers hatched a plot to kill 6 million Germans by poisoning the water supply.They did manage to poison some SS prisoners at Dachau by pasting arsenic onto the bottom of loaves of bread,the authorities said no-one died as a result of this but one man claimed that this was untrue and that approx. 100 died because of it.At the time the programme was made 6 of the original 50 were still alive,one[a woman]regretted what they'd tried to do and said they must have been crazy to have come up with such a plan but that they were living in crazy times.One of the men said he was full of regret every day because they didn't succeed.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Yes, an interesting one indeed.

It was wrong however to even consider what they tried to do as justice was required to take it's course, not vigilante actions. The great Nazis hunter Simon Wiesenthal, a Holocaust survivor, always stated that there should be "  Justice Not Vengeance" for the Nazis's and the SS responsible.

However, far too many of them lived instead of dangling on a rope for a long time!!

I will say no more!  

[Rods2]

As vile as the Nazi rule was with 6m murdered there is an even viler system on our planet that has murdered 100m in 100 years it's called Communism. It gets a free pass from the left wing in all Western countries and NOBODY has ever been punished.

Stalin murdered 6-8m Ukrainians in the 1932-33 Holodomor. A deliberate genocide by forcibly taking all the food from vast areas of Ukraine. My wife's family only survived where they kept bees and the bee hives weren't confiscated and they has a cherry orchard. They couldn't risk eating the cherries and so they eat the cherry tree leaves with honey. Many people died in their village along with adjacent cities, towns and villages.

In WWII in a process of extermination by both the Nazis and Soviets in Ukraine there were 1.4m military deaths including, my wife's granddad in 1944 where he served in the Red Army. 7m civilian deaths murdered by both side including 0.5m Jews killed by the Nazis.

[Lizzie Zoom]

As vile as the Nazi rule was with 6m murdered there is an even viler system on our planet that has murdered 100m in 100 years it's called Communism. It gets a free pass from the left wing in all Western countries and NOBODY has ever been punished.

Stalin murdered 6-8m Ukrainians in the 1932-33 Holodomor. A deliberate genocide by forcibly taking all the food from vast areas of Ukraine. My wife's family only survived where they kept bees and the bee hives weren't confiscated and they has a cherry orchard. They couldn't risk eating the cherries and so they eat the cherry tree leaves with honey. Many people died in their village along with adjacent cities, towns and villages.

In WWII in a process of extermination by both the Nazis and Soviets in Ukraine there were 1.4m military deaths including, my wife's granddad in 1944 where he served in the Red Army. 7m civilian deaths murdered by both side including 0.5m Jews killed by the Nazis.

I think the difference is Rod that the Soviets were a very important part of the Allied forces that defeated the Nazis.  The Soviets were the victors, and so would not be put on trial as the Nazis were at Nuremberg, and infact were a vital element of the prosecution.  With Stalin very much in power there was no chance of the West even starting to consider Soviet war crimes. There was no appetite for that, and then of course came the Cold War anyway.  Stalin died in 1953, the year I was born, and the Soviet system remained intact under new leaders until the CCCP was dissolved in 1991. There was little chance then of bringing about any justice for the millions murdered by the Soviets during WW2, or later.

Now, in the West, as you have correctly stated, we are in a situation again of having an almost politically closed situation with Putin, who I am sure would not assist with any move to bring war crimes to book.  Indeed, as with the Nazis, there are few Soviets alive now who could be held culpable for any crimes.  It is not going to happen, and now, regretfully, must be filed in history, but used as a record of what humans can do to each other and as a warning for the future.

[Shackeng]

As vile as the Nazi rule was with 6m murdered there is an even viler system on our planet that has murdered 100m in 100 years it's called Communism. It gets a free pass from the left wing in all Western countries and NOBODY has ever been punished.

Stalin murdered 6-8m Ukrainians in the 1932-33 Holodomor. A deliberate genocide by forcibly taking all the food from vast areas of Ukraine. My wife's family only survived where they kept bees and the bee hives weren't confiscated and they has a cherry orchard. They couldn't risk eating the cherries and so they eat the cherry tree leaves with honey. Many people died in their village along with adjacent cities, towns and villages.

In WWII in a process of extermination by both the Nazis and Soviets in Ukraine there were 1.4m military deaths including, my wife's granddad in 1944 where he served in the Red Army. 7m civilian deaths murdered by both side including 0.5m Jews killed by the Nazis.

I think the difference is Rod that the Soviets were a very important part of the Allied forces that defeated the Nazis.  The Soviets were the victors, and so would not be put on trial as the Nazis were at Nuremberg, and infact were a vital element of the prosecution.  With Stalin very much in power there was no chance of the West even starting to consider Soviet war crimes. There was no appetite for that, and then of course came the Cold War anyway.  Stalin died in 1953, the year I was born, and the Soviet system remained intact under new leaders until the CCCP was dissolved in 1991. There was little chance then of bringing about any justice for the millions murdered by the Soviets during WW2, or later.

Now, in the West, as you have correctly stated, we are in a situation again of having an almost politically closed situation with Putin, who I am sure would not assist with any move to bring war crimes to book.  Indeed, as with the Nazis, there are few Soviets alive now who could be held culpable for any crimes.  It is not going to happen, and now, regretfully, must be filed in history, but used as a record of what humans can do to each other and as a warning for the future.

...and be ignored as is felt convenient by the the rest of the world. Witness the Balkans, Syria, Yemen... need I go on?

[Lizzie Zoom]

As vile as the Nazi rule was with 6m murdered there is an even viler system on our planet that has murdered 100m in 100 years it's called Communism. It gets a free pass from the left wing in all Western countries and NOBODY has ever been punished.

Stalin murdered 6-8m Ukrainians in the 1932-33 Holodomor. A deliberate genocide by forcibly taking all the food from vast areas of Ukraine. My wife's family only survived where they kept bees and the bee hives weren't confiscated and they has a cherry orchard. They couldn't risk eating the cherries and so they eat the cherry tree leaves with honey. Many people died in their village along with adjacent cities, towns and villages.

In WWII in a process of extermination by both the Nazis and Soviets in Ukraine there were 1.4m military deaths including, my wife's granddad in 1944 where he served in the Red Army. 7m civilian deaths murdered by both side including 0.5m Jews killed by the Nazis.

I think the difference is Rod that the Soviets were a very important part of the Allied forces that defeated the Nazis.  The Soviets were the victors, and so would not be put on trial as the Nazis were at Nuremberg, and infact were a vital element of the prosecution.  With Stalin very much in power there was no chance of the West even starting to consider Soviet war crimes. There was no appetite for that, and then of course came the Cold War anyway.  Stalin died in 1953, the year I was born, and the Soviet system remained intact under new leaders until the CCCP was dissolved in 1991. There was little chance then of bringing about any justice for the millions murdered by the Soviets during WW2, or later.

Now, in the West, as you have correctly stated, we are in a situation again of having an almost politically closed situation with Putin, who I am sure would not assist with any move to bring war crimes to book.  Indeed, as with the Nazis, there are few Soviets alive now who could be held culpable for any crimes.  It is not going to happen, and now, regretfully, must be filed in history, but used as a record of what humans can do to each other and as a warning for the future.

...and be ignored as is felt convenient by the the rest of the world. Witness the Balkans, Syria, Yemen... need I go on?

Yes, so sadly true!  MAN never learns does he?!

[Bigron]

Will you stop being sexist, Lizzie - you never find blokes doing any such things!

Ron.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Will you stop being sexist, Lizzie - you never find blokes doing any such things!

Ron.

No, of course not Ron.  Just on the OOF! Smaller brains indeed!!

[Bigron]

WHO has the smaller brain? Women: on average, four ounces less than men. Now go and sit on the naughty step for being insolent! 

Ron.

[Lizzie Zoom]

WHO has the smaller brain? Women: on average, four ounces less than men. Now go and sit on the naughty step for being insolent! 

Ron.

Ah, but us women use our brains, not what is between our legs!

[Bigron]

There has been very little evidence of that, Lizzie, and if you were honest you would agree. A lot of dizziness and emotionality, yes.....
However, despite all of the above, I do respect women and even like some of them! 

Ron.

[scimmy_man]

WHO has the smaller brain? Women: on average, four ounces less than men. Now go and sit on the naughty step for being insolent! 

Ron.

Ah, but us women use our brains, not what is between our legs!

we have a brain and a penis, but not often enough blood to run both at the same time.

[Lizzie Zoom]

WHO has the smaller brain? Women: on average, four ounces less than men. Now go and sit on the naughty step for being insolent! 

Ron.

Ah, but us women use our brains, not what is between our legs!

we have a brain and a penis, but not often enough blood to run both at the same time.

Ah, that explains everything!

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

On the other hand Women can talk or they can think (mostly about shoes for some bizarre reason). They rarely stop talking for long enough to think though. 

[Lizzie Zoom]

On the other hand Women can talk or they can think (mostly about shoes for some bizarre reason). They rarely stop talking for long enough to think though. 

Ah, but we can multi-task, so we can do both, and more, at the same time

[Bigron]

But we can pee standing up! 

Ron.

[Lizzie Zoom]

But we can pee standing up! 

Ron.

So can we when really desperate and not wanting to make a scene; that's what skirts are good for!

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

On the other hand Women can talk or they can think (mostly about shoes for some bizarre reason). They rarely stop talking for long enough to think though. 

Ah, but we can multi-task, so we can make a pigs ear of several things, at the same time

This is also true. 

[Lizzie Zoom]

On the other hand Women can talk or they can think (mostly about shoes for some bizarre reason). They rarely stop talking for long enough to think though. 

Ah, but we can multi-task, so we can make a pigs ear of several things, at the same time

This is also true. 

You blighter!

[Rods2]

As vile as the Nazi rule was with 6m murdered there is an even viler system on our planet that has murdered 100m in 100 years it's called Communism. It gets a free pass from the left wing in all Western countries and NOBODY has ever been punished.

Stalin murdered 6-8m Ukrainians in the 1932-33 Holodomor. A deliberate genocide by forcibly taking all the food from vast areas of Ukraine. My wife's family only survived where they kept bees and the bee hives weren't confiscated and they has a cherry orchard. They couldn't risk eating the cherries and so they eat the cherry tree leaves with honey. Many people died in their village along with adjacent cities, towns and villages.

In WWII in a process of extermination by both the Nazis and Soviets in Ukraine there were 1.4m military deaths including, my wife's granddad in 1944 where he served in the Red Army. 7m civilian deaths murdered by both side including 0.5m Jews killed by the Nazis.

I think the difference is Rod that the Soviets were a very important part of the Allied forces that defeated the Nazis.  The Soviets were the victors, and so would not be put on trial as the Nazis were at Nuremberg, and infact were a vital element of the prosecution.  With Stalin very much in power there was no chance of the West even starting to consider Soviet war crimes. There was no appetite for that, and then of course came the Cold War anyway.  Stalin died in 1953, the year I was born, and the Soviet system remained intact under new leaders until the CCCP was dissolved in 1991. There was little chance then of bringing about any justice for the millions murdered by the Soviets during WW2, or later.

Now, in the West, as you have correctly stated, we are in a situation again of having an almost politically closed situation with Putin, who I am sure would not assist with any move to bring war crimes to book.  Indeed, as with the Nazis, there are few Soviets alive now who could be held culpable for any crimes.  It is not going to happen, and now, regretfully, must be filed in history, but used as a record of what humans can do to each other and as a warning for the future.

...and be ignored as is felt convenient by the the rest of the world. Witness the Balkans, Syria, Yemen... need I go on?

On going are Putin's war crimes in Chechnya (with Kadyrov), Ukraine and Syria (with Assad) and crimes against his own population in Russia including the Moscow apartment bombings.

[Lizzie Zoom]

As vile as the Nazi rule was with 6m murdered there is an even viler system on our planet that has murdered 100m in 100 years it's called Communism. It gets a free pass from the left wing in all Western countries and NOBODY has ever been punished.

Stalin murdered 6-8m Ukrainians in the 1932-33 Holodomor. A deliberate genocide by forcibly taking all the food from vast areas of Ukraine. My wife's family only survived where they kept bees and the bee hives weren't confiscated and they has a cherry orchard. They couldn't risk eating the cherries and so they eat the cherry tree leaves with honey. Many people died in their village along with adjacent cities, towns and villages.

In WWII in a process of extermination by both the Nazis and Soviets in Ukraine there were 1.4m military deaths including, my wife's granddad in 1944 where he served in the Red Army. 7m civilian deaths murdered by both side including 0.5m Jews killed by the Nazis.

I think the difference is Rod that the Soviets were a very important part of the Allied forces that defeated the Nazis.  The Soviets were the victors, and so would not be put on trial as the Nazis were at Nuremberg, and infact were a vital element of the prosecution.  With Stalin very much in power there was no chance of the West even starting to consider Soviet war crimes. There was no appetite for that, and then of course came the Cold War anyway.  Stalin died in 1953, the year I was born, and the Soviet system remained intact under new leaders until the CCCP was dissolved in 1991. There was little chance then of bringing about any justice for the millions murdered by the Soviets during WW2, or later.

Now, in the West, as you have correctly stated, we are in a situation again of having an almost politically closed situation with Putin, who I am sure would not assist with any move to bring war crimes to book.  Indeed, as with the Nazis, there are few Soviets alive now who could be held culpable for any crimes.  It is not going to happen, and now, regretfully, must be filed in history, but used as a record of what humans can do to each other and as a warning for the future.

...and be ignored as is felt convenient by the the rest of the world. Witness the Balkans, Syria, Yemen... need I go on?

On going are Putin's war crimes in Chechnya (with Kadyrov), Ukraine and Syria (with Assad) and crimes against his own population in Russia including the Moscow apartment bombings.

Yes, but what can we do about that in the West?

Intervention? Well, we have got that so right in the Middle East, and no doubt with Putin it would make war certain

[Rods2]

What we are doing, sanctions is the only practical politically acceptable solution. The latest round in February from Congress has got the Kremlin and the Oligarchs in a panic as it is aimed at targeting Putin's inner circle and their families which will include freezing any assets held in the West. Putin targeting the presidential election was about getting his 'asset' in the White House and getting him to lift sanctions. It hasn't worked out like that where as usual for the Kremlin effective tactics and a disastrous strategy. They needed a competent president not a useless buffoon who doesn't know how to play the Washington political system and which order to pull the political levers under his control.

Putin along with his inner circle have all moved considerable wealth off shore as a safety net. All those below Putin only effectively lease their wealth while they make Putin the guardian of their soul and are at his beck and call. Too much stealing, too much incompetence in your job or any disloyalty will result in your dismissal or much worse, some have been jailed others have had 'accidents', 'fatal heart attacks' or 'committed suicide'. The assets then return to Putin who uses them with new appointments of new responsibilities his inner circle take on. 113 'own' 83% of Russian wealth with Putin's estimated at $200bn.

[Lizzie Zoom]

What we are doing, sanctions is the only practical politically acceptable solution. The latest round in February from Congress has got the Kremlin and the Oligarchs in a panic as it is aimed at targeting Putin's inner circle and their families which will include freezing any assets held in the West. Putin targeting the presidential election was about getting his 'asset' in the White House and getting him to lift sanctions. It hasn't worked out like that where as usual for the Kremlin effective tactics and a disastrous strategy. They needed a competent president not a useless buffoon who doesn't know how to play the Washington political system and which order to pull the political levers under his control.

Putin along with his inner circle have all moved considerable wealth off shore as a safety net. All those below Putin only effectively lease their wealth while they make Putin the guardian of their soul and are at his beck and call. Too much stealing, too much incompetence in your job or any disloyalty will result in your dismissal or much worse, some have been jailed others have had 'accidents', 'fatal heart attacks' or 'committed suicide'. The assets then return to Putin who uses them with new appointments of new responsibilities his inner circle take on. 113 'own' 83% of Russian wealth with Putin's estimated at $200bn.

Ok, but they do not seem to be working in so far as we are no nearer to solving the real issue; making Russia a truly democratic state.

Well before the USSR fell I was predicting that the only change to what was an awesome entity would come from within, as all Empires collapse inwards as democracy and financially reality eats into the monster.  With Putin still successfully banning any opposition, with even the Leader of the Opposition in Russia arrested briefly for protesting on the streets, or just being who he is and what he represents, there seems to still be the constant struggle to bring any change internally to their political system. When that happens we can all breath a sigh of relief as finally the old Soviet system, which Putin as as an ex-KGB operative represents and still promotes in reality, will finally die. I fear that the West has some way to go before we see the final change within Russia, no matter what so called "sanctions" we line up against the current regime.  We do not want war, so we will have to be (very) patient.

[Rods2]

Totally disagree as sanctions are working a well as can be expected, hence Putin barring from standing all opposition candidates apart from the 'official opposition' Patsy and the limited appeal of the Communist candidate. To still make himself look popular, expect vote stuffing on an epic scale in March.

You make the same mistake as many people thinking sanctions are a sprint. They were imposed last week and nothing has changed this week, so they can't be working. It is a long term marathon like causing the fall of the Soviet Union which Reagan finally brought about and was a 25 year US project! Putin's backup state fund has run out and has had to appropriate the reserve state pension fund to cover state deficits that is on target to run out in 2019. Gazprom used to sell gas at a premium where supply and demand were closely matched, but due to a glut from US fracking and the US law change to allow exports they are now the cheapest major supplier as they try to regain market share. After a 2 year recession and rising state deficit they are on target to obtain 1-2% GDP growth this year, but with more sanctions due from the US in 2018 this is not guaranteed.

It is very unlikely that Russia will ever be a democracy in our lifetimes as for a revolution to succeed in any meaningful way the old state apparatus has to be replaced whereas post-1991 the state security system is still essentially the same as during Soviet times and has actually been considerably increased and made more intrusive by Putin. You can expect him to probably stand down in 2024, but he will name his successor like Yeltsin named Putin on the basis of guaranteed legal immunity.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Totally disagree as sanctions are working a well as can be expected, hence Putin barring from standing all opposition candidates apart from the 'official opposition' Patsy and the limited appeal of the Communist candidate. To still make himself look popular, expect vote stuffing on an epic scale in March.

You make the same mistake as many people thinking sanctions are a sprint. They were imposed last week and nothing has changed this week, so they can't be working. It is a long term marathon like causing the fall of the Soviet Union which Reagan finally brought about and was a 25 year US project! Putin's backup state fund has run out and has had to appropriate the reserve state pension fund to cover state deficits that is on target to run out in 2019. Gazprom used to sell gas at a premium where supply and demand were closely matched, but due to a glut from US fracking and the US law change to allow exports they are now the cheapest major supplier as they try to regain market share. After a 2 year recession and rising state deficit they are on target to obtain 1-2% GDP growth this year, but with more sanctions due from the US in 2018 this is not guaranteed.

It is very unlikely that Russia will ever be a democracy in our lifetimes as for a revolution to succeed in any meaningful way the old state apparatus has to be replaced whereas post-1991 the state security system is still essentially the same as during Soviet times and has actually been considerably increased and made more intrusive by Putin. You can expect him to probably stand down in 2024, but he will name his successor like Yeltsin named Putin on the basis of guaranteed legal immunity.

No, as I recognise that in fact they take an eternity to work and that is the problem with them.

In modern history sanctions, or blockades, have not stopped the element that they were meant to.  During the First World War the Royal Navy had a blockade functioning in 1914 on Germany, but Germany continued to wage war as they found a few ways around what the British were trying to achieve.  It was only in late 1916 that the German populous started to really suffer from great starvation, but the troops continued to be well fed. Post the Armistice of 1918 the Royal Navy continued their blockade under after the Versailles Treaty of 1919.  But overall the German war effort was not affected by the sanctions until it was all too late.

During WW2 the Germans tried, almost very successfully, to stop essential supplies to Great Britain by sending Atlantic conveys to the bottom of the sea, but the British fought back.  It was a close run thing, as Churchill would later publicly recall, but still WW2 went on to the Allied victory.

The USA implemented sanctions on Cuba in 1961/62, and they have continued to date.  Even the Obama policy of winding back these sanctions has been stopped by Trump, with new harsher measures being implemented.  There is no doubt the populous of Cuba has suffered over the decades, and increasingly so over the last 30 years, but the Cuban Communist regime continues on it's merry way with no sign yet of any capitulation, despite the demise of Castro in 2016. 

China, Iran, and of course recently North Korea are also countries that have had sanctions over the decades applied to them, but apart from the dreadful effects on their people, the political status quo has survived.  This is the same with Russia; a country that is large enough and has the military and political clout to get around any sanctions that would effect Putin and his political establishment.  No, once more it will be the people of Russia that will suffer whilst Putin does what he wants, and may well create a war situation as he did in the Crimea and Ukraine

As you can tell me Rod, Putin has to date: Intervened in Ukraine and annexation of Crimea.
                                                              Invaded Georgia and the Caucasus.
                                                              Intervened in Moldova, Baltic states and Scandinavia

Once more, sanctions will be so slow as to be virtually ineffective with a leader like Putin, as they would have been against Hitler, as these monsters always find ways around them and will achieve their political and/or military objectives until war stops them.

International Law, as most of us know, is toothless and cannot stop anything without the key military player in NATO, the USA, becoming involved.  But now I would not guarantee the USA under "Put America First" Trump will want to involve themselves in any European conflict.

No, with sanctions I do not hold my breath.........

[Rods2]

If you want a quick solution that takes 3-10 minutes to carry out and the winners, most likely Russia, China & DPRK will win as they have better civil defenses and it will involve killing 20-40% of the global population with a massive exchange of instant sunshine and the making lots of glass. Personally, I prefer the slow burn of sanctions, especially as I care about my children and grand children having long happy lives, but each to their own.

The RN blockade of Germany pushed up the cost of raw materials to them and in 1918 after the failure of the German Ludendorff Offensive it was a year of allied victories and finally German economic failure force them to seek an amnesty.

In WWII the invasion of North Africa would not have happened in November 1942 without decreasing U-boat attacks. September and October 1942 U-boat heavy losses and decreasing attacks on convoys started to rapidly turn the tide in the Atlantic so D-Day planning and execution was then possible. The U-Boats undoubtedly lengthen WWII but once the US entered the war with their massive resources and production capacity the defeat of Germany and Japan was inevitable.

Where you don't think sanctions work how is the Soviet empire of Eastern European countries going? Oh yes, they lost them due to the collapse of their empire. When Putin's empire collapses and he needs a bailout from Western countries, what do you think the terms will be on with Chechnya, Georgia and Ukraine along with several other suppressed independence movements like in Siberia?

If you knew anything about modern geopolitics you would understand why Putin is trying so hard to get sanctions removed, why he threw the US election to make Trump POTUS, why the June 2016 collusion meeting is so significant and why Bill Browder is a Putin's nightmare, but as you don't you won't.

[Lizzie Zoom]

If you want a quick solution that takes 3-10 minutes to carry out and the winners, most likely Russia, China & DPRK will win as they have better civil defenses and it will involve killing 20-40% of the global population with a massive exchange of instant sunshine and the making lots of glass. Personally, I prefer the slow burn of sanctions, especially as I care about my children and grand children having long happy lives, but each to their own.

The RN blockade of Germany pushed up the cost of raw materials to them and in 1918 after the failure of the German Ludendorff Offensive it was a year of allied victories and finally German economic failure force them to seek an amnesty.

In WWII the invasion of North Africa would not have happened in November 1942 without decreasing U-boat attacks. September and October 1942 U-boat heavy losses and decreasing attacks on convoys started to rapidly turn the tide in the Atlantic so D-Day planning and execution was then possible. The U-Boats undoubtedly lengthen WWII but once the US entered the war with their massive resources and production capacity the defeat of Germany and Japan was inevitable.

Where you don't think sanctions work how is the Soviet empire of Eastern European countries going? Oh yes, they lost them due to the collapse of their empire. When Putin's empire collapses and he needs a bailout from Western countries, what do you think the terms will be on with Chechnya, Georgia and Ukraine along with several other suppressed independence movements like in Siberia?

If you knew anything about modern geopolitics you would understand why Putin is trying so hard to get sanctions removed, why he threw the US election to make Trump POTUS, why the June 2016 collusion meeting is so significant and why Bill Browder is a Putin's nightmare, but as you don't you won't.

That is a crass comment and shows you don't understand anything but your point of view.  I certainly don't want war, and all I was doing was challenging your continual speel about "sanctions" being the answer, when my argument was and is they take too long to work.

WW1 was won by the Allies after the USA came into the conflict, and the Germans realised after the massive push of the Llundendorff offensive was pushed back, and their army, tired and exhausted, that they could not win and the sensible thing for them to do was to seek an Armistice. But, Germany never surrendered and marched their army, fully armed, back to Berlin with honour, a fact later used to argue that Germany had been "robbed" and should have maintained the war. Sanctions, although as I stated heavily hurt the civilian population, did not stop the German army from fighting.

With WW2 you state all the facts, which to any historian are obvious, but the message I was originally imparting was, yet again, there are always ways and means around "sanctions" or "blockades", which in the case of the Atlantic conveys could have had far greater effect if the full military will of Karl Donitz had been given creadence by Hitler early in late 1940, early 1941 before America came into the war in December of that year. At that point the German Atlantic "blockade" of a type was going to fail.

You don't reply to my point about Cuba, but never mind I have made my point that "sanctions" do not, and will not, resolve any issues with Russia.  It was you who emphasised how the West must stop Putin, but how?  You can continue to type pages of words, but like the UN you or them have no real plan to do so.  There are so many conflicting policies around the nations, with a large number of political interests and alliances, it will be difficult (but not impossible) to do so. This should be the great big red flag of warning to all World leaders, as we know WW1 started due to a similar political en-pass, with the diplomats, like Britains Sir Edward Grey, failing to get the nations to find diplomatic solutions.  Now I am NOT saying the current situation in Europe around the Balkans and the Middle East with Turkey is the same as in 1914, but the dangers of falling into a political trap, with a very serious military conflict, is there none the less.

Now I certainly will not pretend to have any answers to what has become a very delicate political situation, but I just prey that some presently unknown great leader rises up and provides a map of how we are going to PEACEFULLY progress to a lasting settlement throughout the endangered aforementioned areas of Eastern Europe and into the Middle East.

[ronnyd]

Getting far to heavy for me.

[Varche]

Pray for a great leader presently unknown to facilitate peace? Good luck with that.

Think we will have a long wait. Man is too intransigent to live in peace with one another. How many physical wars are going on right now across the planet.? 10 ? 20.? Then you have the intelectual wars, cyber wars, manipulation ofelection outcomes

[Shackeng]

en-pass

'impasse' perhaps?

[Lizzie Zoom]

Pray for a great leader presently unknown to facilitate peace? Good luck with that.

Think we will have a long wait. Man is too intransigent to live in peace with one another. How many physical wars are going on right now across the planet.? 10 ? 20.? Then you have the intelectual wars, cyber wars, manipulation ofelection outcomes

Winston Churchill came out of the wilderness as a great (war) leader when many did not rate him at all.  So, who knows, one great man or women may exist to take over the struggle soon!

Yes, that is the problem Varche.  I have studied Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679) for some years now and out of all the philosophers he is the one who hits it on the head in his summing up of man and his natural state that is always inclined towards "Warre".  Plato (427-327 BCE) identified it with one particular famous quote amongst many "Only the dead have seen the end of war".

Niccolò Machiavelli (1469-1527) covered excellently how man always seeks power by cunning and often dishonest means, with always the risk of war justifying the means by the end result, as indeed the Nazis did, whilst perverting the prevailing beliefs of Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900), with one of his quotes always striking a chord with me and again sums up the Nazis and now the West in it's long struggle to influence the East:
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you"  The warning in that is very clear.

All the above cover what you say Varche and what I fear.  These are dangerous times.

[Lizzie Zoom]

en-pass

'impasse' perhaps?

    Oh, yes, thanks Shankeng, that is me typing away fast again and slipping into a bit of bad French!!

[Shackeng]

en-pass

'impasse' perhaps?

    Oh, yes, thanks Shankeng, that is me typing away fast again and slipping into a bit of bad French!!

Hmmm, not sure I like that.

[Varche]

Shankeng - foreign cousin perhaps?

[Lizzie Zoom]

Sorry Shackeng, there I go again!!

I should know better as I know you love the good old Shackleton; a lovely aeroplane and I can still hear those four Griffin engines when I think back to Malta in 1963 and watch them flying over our house using an aldis lamp to communicate with the Grand Harbour control centre.  Ahhhhhhhhhh, what a comforting sound, not much different to four Merlins!

[ronnyd]

Sorry Shackeng, there I go again!!

I should know better as I know you love the good old Shackleton; a lovely aeroplane and I can still hear those four Griffin engines when I think back to Malta in 1963 and watch them flying over our house using an aldis lamp to communicate with the Grand Harbour control centre.  Ahhhhhhhhhh, what a comforting sound, not much different to four Merlins!

Magical.

[Shackeng]

Sorry Shackeng, there I go again!!

I should know better as I know you love the good old Shackleton; a lovely aeroplane and I can still hear those four Griffin engines when I think back to Malta in 1963 and watch them flying over our house using an aldis lamp to communicate with the Grand Harbour control centre.  Ahhhhhhhhhh, what a comforting sound, not much different to four Merlins!

They must have been in trouble if they had to use the Aldis lamp for that. I never knew it used when airborne. But the facility was there to communicate with ships or survivors in dinghies or lifeboats. The a/c would have had to have lost all radio comms, i.e. UHF, VHF & HF, to use it as described above. However my friend was on 37 Sqn at Malta on Shacks, so I will mention it to him.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Sorry Shackeng, there I go again!!

I should know better as I know you love the good old Shackleton; a lovely aeroplane and I can still hear those four Griffin engines when I think back to Malta in 1963 and watch them flying over our house using an aldis lamp to communicate with the Grand Harbour control centre.  Ahhhhhhhhhh, what a comforting sound, not much different to four Merlins!

They must have been in trouble if they had to use the Aldis lamp for that. I never knew it used when airborne. But the facility was there to communicate with ships or survivors in dinghies or lifeboats. The a/c would have had to have lost all radio comms, i.e. UHF, VHF & HF, to use it as described above. However my friend was on 37 Sqn at Malta on Shacks, so I will mention it to him.

Yes, my father once said they were on training flights and as a then RN Petty Officer of signals he was able to read what was being communicated, but he never said what, due to him never imparting any official (Secrets Act) information to us his family.  The use of the Aldis lamp was not a one off as I saw that on a number of occasions.

I remember the Shackletons also feathering various props, which once again my father said was being done as a training exercise.  Don't know about that, as I can imagine with four engines each with two counter turning props, that could have been done to save fuel (??)

No matter what the facts were I just loved watching and listening to those planes, along with Vulcans that used to make their presence known every so often, once indeed when my father got us a visit to the Luqa control tower when a Vulcan apparently returned from a bombing exercise with a jammed bomb bay.  All great stuff to watch when you are a 10 year old girl!

[Lizzie Zoom]

One other fact about the Shackletons using the Aldis lamps over the Grand Harbour, that I always wondered about and it's again come to mind, is that the NATO Headquarters in Malta was just behind our house. My father never mentioned any link but I wonder again if there was.

[Bigron]

Vulcans, Lizzie? I have a memory of seeing/hearing my one and only Vulcan when I was strolling along Weymouth Pier in Carnival week (air show): suddenly there was this great noise overhead - literally overhead - so close that it nearly parted my hair!
"Oh my goodness" * I thought, as I ran towards Marks' and Spencers' for fresh knickers.....

Ron.


* Insert suitable expletive of your choice here!

[BazaJT]

Finnigley[now Robin Hood airport]air show always used to start-back in the '60s with a "scramble of 4 Vulcans,that didn't half make the ground shake Wasn't it the Shackleton that used to be described as so many thousand rivets flying in loose formation?

[Lizzie Zoom]

Ah, that brings back memories of me at about aged 5 when we went to see my Auntie Murial at Fleet.  It coincided with the Farborough Air Show with the Black Arrows, Lightenings, Vampires, and an assortment of V bombers flying over.

Her son with her daughter took me to see the show, and it was there I saw a Vulcan in action for the first time. What a lasting impression that gave me!

I also saw once a mass take off with 3 Vulcan's and it left me speechless.  It was so long ago I cannot remember when and where it was, but I seem to recall it was down to my father getting special access through the "mates" system to watch them at some base or another.  That wouldn't happen now, even if any Vulcan's still flew and on active service!

[Shackeng]

I remember the Shackletons also feathering various props, which once again my father said was being done as a training exercise.  Don't know about that, as I can imagine with four engines each with two counter turning props, that could have been done to save fuel (??)

Your dad was correct, Shackletons never feathered an engine to save fuel, only for pilot or crew training, and only below weights at which a further engine failure would not be embarrassing. The later Mk3s, as in my Avatar, had Viper jets, running on Avgas, fitted in the outboard Griffon nacelles, initially to assist take-offs only, the controls for which were at the FE station. They later modified the jets, modifying the fixed idle/max power only 'throttle' setting to a variable 'throttle' to allow them to be used in the cruise or for emergency Griffon failure. So the FE needed to very slick in lighting them in flight, as a Griffon failure at 1000', our normal cruise height over the ocean, or lower, required a rapid crew response in a heavy Mk3, which would struggle to maintain altitude on 3 Griffons at max power, as I discovered more than once.

 

Don't know about that, as I can imagine with four engines each with two counter turning props, that could have been done to save fuel

We did use this technique on the Nimrod, and could safely cruise on 2 once below 'critical weight', the weight at which we could maintain altitude on one engine should we lose one of the powered Speys.

Wasn't it the Shackleton that used to be described as so many thousand rivets flying in loose formation?

Correct, and it sounded like it inside. After a 12 hour trip, my Beetle sounded like a Roller.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Thanks Shackeng

I always been jealous of you knowing you flew in what was in essence a Lancaster variant. What an experience you must have had, but I suppose after the first 25 12 flights the novelty may have worn off??

To think now woman would be allowed to crew these planes

[Bigron]

REALLY
 







Hiding......

[Lizzie Zoom]

REALLY
 

Hiding......

Oh yes. RAF Number 8 Squadron operates Senetry E3 D AWACS with men and WOMEN crews

[Bigron]

Where's my prayer mat?

Ron.






STILL hiding.

[Shackeng]

Believe it or not Ron, women even fly commercial airliners. I helped train some of BA's first lady pilots. Very good they were too.

[Bigron]

I am well up for accepting that, Shackeng.
I concur, going by my teaching experiences in college.
Most of my students were male, since the profession does not attract females often. This saddens me, because it has been my experience that when I do get the occasional female, she excels at everything, with a far better work ethic than the boys and little messing about!
Why, oh why did they meet with hostility and piss-taking, even from some of my colleagues?
My tongue-in-cheek comments to Lizzie were just teasing! 

Ron.

[tigers_gonads]

REALLY
 

Hiding......

Oh yes. RAF Number 8 Squadron operates Senetry E3 D AWACS with men and WOMEN crews

Women have been flying single and twin seat fast jets very well in the RAF for at least 10 years Liz 

But I still would stop you all driving and voting 

[Shackeng]

I flew with a Captain once who had flown RAF fast jets and commercial big jets, and he retired never having had a driving licence!

[Lizzie Zoom]

REALLY
 

Hiding......

Oh yes. RAF Number 8 Squadron operates Senetry E3 D AWACS with men and WOMEN crews

Women have been flying single and twin seat fast jets very well in the RAF for at least 10 years Liz 

But I still would stop you all driving and voting 

I know.  I was just emphasising how women now would be part of the Shackleton crew, if still flying, as they are in the current AWACS.

They also, as Shackeng rightly points out, great commercial aircraft pilots.  The only problem is there is not enough of them due to girls of the past, such me, being brought up to think they were not good enough, just as how my mum treated me, to take on such roles.  Thank goodness things have greatly changed on that front!

Girl power!!

[Bigron]

Never mind all that "girl power" rubbish, Lizzie: we are equal, but different and we should simply celebrate that. 

Ron.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Never mind all that "girl power" rubbish, Lizzie: we are equal, but different and we should simply celebrate that. 

Ron.

But 'Girl Power' may be rubbish to you Ron, but it has made more men recognise what you have correctly stated than ever before!  When I was a child no "standard" man would ever admit women are equal to them, and treated women accordingly.

[Bigron]

I NEVER subscribed to the one "superior, one inferior" mind-set - maybe I was ahead of my time?
Way back in the '60s, we had a tracer in the drawing office who was underused and goven only menial jobs to do, with no input other than copying.
I always went to her (and she wasn't drop-dead gorgeous, if that is whnat you might be thinking!) when I wanted any of my designs drawn up, because the D.O. handled the mechanical aspect of the design. She was brilliant, and far more co-operative than the macho, up-themselves shitbags blokes in the D.O.
As you can tell, we got on and enjoyed working together. 

Ron.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I NEVER subscribed to the one "superior, one inferior" mind-set - maybe I was ahead of my time?
Way back in the '60s, we had a tracer in the drawing office who was underused and goven only menial jobs to do, with no input other than copying.
I always went to her (and she wasn't drop-dead gorgeous, if that is whnat you might be thinking!) when I wanted any of my designs drawn up, because the D.O. handled the mechanical aspect of the design. She was brilliant, and far more co-operative than the macho, up-themselves shitbags blokes in the D.O.
As you can tell, we got on and enjoyed working together. 

Ron.

Believe me you were Ron bless you!

[Bigron]

Thanks Lizzie.
Another example, from my college days. There was a (rare) female in an Electronics class who one day complained to me about the sexist attitude of one of my colleagues, saying that he was always belittling her and making snide comments as to why she was even on the course.
I said that I took the pee out of her on a daily basis in  a similar fashion.
She replied, "yes, but YOU don't mean it"
She was dead right, of course - but teasing can be fun! 

Ron.

[Doctor Gollum]

EasyJet operate several all female crews... And not a single thespian in sight

[TheBoy]

I flew with a Captain once who had flown RAF fast jets and commercial big jets, and he retired never having had a driving licence!

The only time I have been flown by a female pilot, I joked as we walked to the plane "Oh god, don't let her drive".

On approach to Luton, she broke the plane, so we got sent to Stanstead for the full emergency landing treatment.

When we were getting off, I said "I told you not to let her drive", only I wasn't joking any more...