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[raywilb]

just read judges are in for a £60k pay rise . don't mp,s usually follow afore mentioned

[STEMO]

MPs have already had theirs.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

That's what she meant by "the end of austerity". 

[Raeturbo]

We deserve to be arseraped, the French certainly wouldn’t put up with it!
Mind you it’s always been the same.

[Shackeng]

I have no idea whether this pay rise is justified or not, but what I do know is that the criminal justice system has been chronically underfunded for years. My daughter is a barrister who passed out 2nd on her course at bar school about 30 years ago, she was at the criminal bar with a good set of chambers for 7 years, yet, although she enjoyed the work and was always busy, she had to give it up as the fee income she received, mostly legal aid, was such that she was always broke, and some months could not afford to run her car or pay her mortgage. Since then I know that legal aid has been cut again and again, and the situation must be absolutely dire for junior criminal barristers. Fortunately my daughter is now a Company Secretary and Legal Director of a major financial company in the City. My next door neighbour who is 'comfortably' off,  also has a barrister daughter who had to leave the criminal bar for the same reason, even with family financial support.
It seems the criminal bar is now a career only affordable by the rich, and it bodes ill for the future of our justice system.

[Raeturbo]

Same old story the rich are trampling over the poor again and again, but they are getting richer and the poor are becoming what used to be the relatively not to badly well off.

[Doctor Gollum]

Same old story the rich are trampling over the poor again and again, but they are getting richer and the poor are becoming what used to be the relatively not to badly well off.

From the bloke with three cars

[STEMO]

Same old story the rich are trampling over the poor again and again, but they are getting richer and the poor are becoming what used to be the relatively not to badly well off.

From the bloke with three cars

I think you've read that wrong 

[Doctor Gollum]

Same old story the rich are trampling over the poor again and again, but they are getting richer and the poor are becoming what used to be the relatively not to badly well off.

From the bloke with three cars

I think you've read that wrong 

Nope, two Omegas and an Evo 2

[STEMO]

Same old story the rich are trampling over the poor again and again, but they are getting richer and the poor are becoming what used to be the relatively not to badly well off.

From the bloke with three cars

I think you've read that wrong 

Nope, two Omegas and an Evo 2

Yes. I think he meant people who are considered poor now would have been considered no too badly off not long ago. 

[Doctor Gollum]

Only because benefits have fallen in relation to wages...

[2boxerdogs]

What do people on here consider to be well off ?

[Doctor Gollum]

A net worth of £500k would probably do it... 

In simple terms what you own less what you owe... So house/pension pot/investments/savings/assets minus any debt... mortgage/car/cards etc...

This number actually has very little to do with income

[Andy B]

It's a proposed 30 something % pay rise taking them from £180k to £240k. I think most ordinary people would think they were doing well if they had an annual salary  of £60k

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2018/oct/12/call-for-a-60000-pay-rise-for-high-court-judges-sparks-anger

[Shackeng]

My daughter now earns considerably more than that in her current job, but would have been happy to continue working at the bar if she could have afforded it. Do we, as country, wish our justice to be dispensed by only those from a wealthy background. I doubt it, but unfortunately that is the current situation.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/legal-aid-cuts-criminal-justice-system-training-costs-barristers-lawyers-law-a8484576.html

[Doctor Gollum]

That was a lifestyle choice then... Live within your income.

[Andy B]

My daughter now earns considerably more than that in her current job, but  ....

I'd say that the vast majority of Joe Public don't though .....

[Shackeng]

My daughter now earns considerably more than that in her current job, but  ....

I'd say that the vast majority of Joe Public don't though .....

and....?

[Andy B]

My daughter now earns considerably more than that in her current job, but  ....

I'd say that the vast majority of Joe Public don't though .....

and....?

and nothing ..... see post #13 

I don't do bad myself, but if I was on £180K I think I'd find it very hard to justify £240k

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Don't see why anyone should see the need to justify what they earn*. If your clever/ hard working / fortunate enough, then good luck to you. Although Ive no doubt Chancellor McDonnell wont see it that way if a catastrophe should happen at the next election. 

*I make an exception for people whose earnings come from my taxes. I think they do need to justify it in that case. 

[Shackeng]

My daughter now earns considerably more than that in her current job, but  ....

I'd say that the vast majority of Joe Public don't though .....

and....?

and nothing ..... see post #13 

I don't do bad myself, but if I was on £180K I think I'd find it very hard to justify £240k

I can believe that, but if Joe Public were to read the link I posted, as you no do doubt have, he might have second thoughts, especially if he, innocently, found himself in court, represented by a white, public school educated barrister, with absolutely no idea how he lives, before a Judge from the same background, and possibly from the same public school.
Incidentally, if you were on 180k, in a public service job, e.g. a Judge, but colleagues you trained with who went in a different direction, were earning 3 times your salary, your public spiritedness might come under some pressure.
Yes, it is a lifestyle choice, as Al has said, but I maintain that we need to encourage those from 'working-class' backgrounds, such as my daughter, into the criminal bar, and not, as the link states, allow it to become the preserve of those from entitled and wealthy families as it has now become. Can you suggest a way of doing this without ensuring them a reasonable and comparable income for the amount of work they do, much of which is unpaid?

[Andy B]

My daughter now earns considerably more than that in her current job, but  ....

I'd say that the vast majority of Joe Public don't though .....

and....?

and nothing ..... see post #13 

I don't do bad myself, but if I was on £180K I think I'd find it very hard to justify £240k

I can believe that, but if Joe Public were to read the link I posted, as you no do doubt have, he might have second thoughts, especially if he, innocently, found himself in court, represented by a white, public school educated barrister, with absolutely no idea how he lives, before a Judge from the same background, and possibly from the same public school.
Incidentally, if you were on 180k, in a public service job, e.g. a Judge, but colleagues you trained with who went in a different direction, were earning 3 times your salary, your public spiritedness might come under some pressure.
Yes, it is a lifestyle choice, as Al has said, but I maintain that we need to encourage those from 'working-class' backgrounds, such as my daughter, into the criminal bar, and not, as the link states, allow it to become the preserve of those from entitled and wealthy families as it has now become. Can you suggest a way of doing this without ensuring them a reasonable and comparable income for the amount of work they do, much of which is unpaid?

I can't Chris ... but I've never really thought about it, but I'm sure I could manage on 'just' £180k  . On the plus side .... does your daughter have uni fees to pay for as mine does? 

[Shackeng]

My daughter now earns considerably more than that in her current job, but  ....

I'd say that the vast majority of Joe Public don't though .....

and....?

and nothing ..... see post #13 

I don't do bad myself, but if I was on £180K I think I'd find it very hard to justify £240k

I can believe that, but if Joe Public were to read the link I posted, as you no do doubt have, he might have second thoughts, especially if he, innocently, found himself in court, represented by a white, public school educated barrister, with absolutely no idea how he lives, before a Judge from the same background, and possibly from the same public school.
Incidentally, if you were on 180k, in a public service job, e.g. a Judge, but colleagues you trained with who went in a different direction, were earning 3 times your salary, your public spiritedness might come under some pressure.
Yes, it is a lifestyle choice, as Al has said, but I maintain that we need to encourage those from 'working-class' backgrounds, such as my daughter, into the criminal bar, and not, as the link states, allow it to become the preserve of those from entitled and wealthy families as it has now become. Can you suggest a way of doing this without ensuring them a reasonable and comparable income for the amount of work they do, much of which is unpaid?

I can't Chris ... but I've never really thought about it, but I'm sure I could manage on 'just' £180k  . On the plus side .... does your daughter have uni fees to pay for as mine does? 

No, there were grants in those days, but I had to pay her bar school fees.

[Raeturbo]

Same old story the rich are trampling over the poor again and again, but they are getting richer and the poor are becoming what used to be the relatively not to badly well off.

From the bloke with three cars

I think you've read that wrong 

Nope, two Omegas and an Evo 2

.  And what do you recon they’re worth Sherlock?

[Raeturbo]

500K?

[Rods2]

Good thing to, that they are being given a major pay rise. The reason judges are so well paid is to make them mostly incorruptible and that is one of the most important elements of our democracy and why the corrupt countries and people invest their ill gotten gains in the UK.

The opposite of this is Ukraine where there totally justice system is based of the size of your bribe. If you are very rich you are effectively above the law as you can buy off everything: murder, rape, theft (including major businesses), driving offences including killing people etc., etc. What cosy Westerners don't realise is what that really means in what you take for granted, like having money in a bank account. A bank employee will help the mafia take it, either through 'bank charges' or indirect theft for their payoff, which is why Ukrainians don't keep money in banks.

The global MOB boss of bosses is Ukrainian Semion Mogilevich who runs the Russian mafia, Ukrainian Mafia and now the US mafia. For them it is always about the money and they will take every $ they can from everybody they can with impunity where they own/payoff judges, politicians etc. FBI untouchable Robert Mueller III took down the Teflon Don and now he is working on the biggest and most important case of his career, where the Trump clan and compromised GOP congressmen and senators are just the tip of the iceberg of US and global elites corruption. If you think globalization biggest success was cheap mass produced goods for everyone, it wasn't. For the mafia it was their globalization of:

1. Drugs.
2. People trafficking.
3. Money laundering.
4. Counterfeit goods.
5. Hacking, malware, botnets and fraud.
6. Protection rackets.
7. Front 'legit' businesses.
8. Investing in Tech companies, main stream media, PR fronts and lobbying companies to create the narrative to their advantage.
9. Corrupting business owners, financial company employees, law enforcement, judges, lawyers, accountants, journalists and most important of all politicians.

And turning countries like Russia into mafia states and if they win in the US the same will apply to them, which will end Western civilization as we know it.

[2boxerdogs]

Good thing to, that they are being given a major pay rise. The reason judges are so well paid is to make them mostly incorruptible and that is one of the most important elements of our democracy and why the corrupt countries and people invest their ill gotten gains in the UK.

The opposite of this is Ukraine where there totally justice system is based of the size of your bribe. If you are very rich you are effectively above the law as you can buy off everything: murder, rape, theft (including major businesses), driving offences including killing people etc., etc. What cosy Westerners don't realise is what that really means in what you take for granted, like having money in a bank account. A bank employee will help the mafia take it, either through 'bank charges' or indirect theft for their payoff, which is why Ukrainians don't keep money in banks.

The global MOB boss of bosses is Ukrainian Semion Mogilevich who runs the Russian mafia, Ukrainian Mafia and now the US mafia. For them it is always about the money and they will take every $ they can from everybody they can with impunity where they own/payoff judges, politicians etc. FBI untouchable Robert Mueller III took down the Teflon Don and now he is working on the biggest and most important case of his career, where the Trump clan and compromised GOP congressmen and senators are just the tip of the iceberg of US and global elites corruption. If you think globalization biggest success was cheap mass produced goods for everyone, it wasn't. For the mafia it was their globalization of:

1. Drugs.
2. People trafficking.
3. Money laundering.
4. Counterfeit goods.
5. Hacking, malware, botnets and fraud.
6. Protection rackets.
7. Front 'legit' businesses.
8. Investing in Tech companies, main stream media, PR fronts and lobbying companies to create the narrative to their advantage.
9. Corrupting business owners, financial company employees, law enforcement, judges, lawyers, accountants, journalists and most important of all politicians.

And turning countries like Russia into mafia states and if they win in the US the same will apply to them, which will end Western civilization as we know it.

. 


Absolutely spot on agree with you 100 percent.

[STEMO]

We're doooooomed.

[Raeturbo]

Yes there’s some truth in that but from what I can see of it the more  money people have the more they want and it can corrupt anybody.