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Author Topic: Dodgy petrol?  (Read 5410 times)

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Kevin Wood

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #15 on: 01 March 2007, 16:07:48 »

I think you're right on both counts.

Surely there aren't cars that have such wide authority on the EGO correction that it would cause them to stop running before giving up and going into limp home? There are reports of cars cutting out in the fast lane to protect their engines. Surely that's a bit of a drastic strategy to program into a management system?

I suspect that any emissions related event results in automatic changes of the O2 sensor at main dealers for risk of someone suddenly discovering a load of EU 3/4 compliant cars in the field that don't meet the required emissions standards.

Still, someone's going to make a killing supplying all the new Lambda sensors. Cue the conspiracy theorists. Already seen one newspaper article blaming terrorists!

Kevin
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Danny

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #16 on: 01 March 2007, 16:40:57 »

I'm quite pleased i decided not to sell my little BMX thats been sat in the shed for a while!!
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TheBoy

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #17 on: 01 March 2007, 19:29:22 »

Quote
This doesn't add up......an O2 sensor failure does not give the symptoms described as it will default to a stored MAP and enter limp home mode......

I suspect the fuel is causing poor combustion resulting in excess O2 in the exhaust, this flags an O2 fault and the garage change it.....I would have thought that if you drained the fuel and ran the car....it would recover.....its probably more of a story about the incompitence of modern mechanics ;)
I just reset edwardmickeys one on sat, and afaik, its still ok....
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Nickbat

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #18 on: 01 March 2007, 20:23:38 »

This is beginning to throw up some interesting stories. Here are two I found:

1. I have always filled up at Tesco in Sandhurst, this week my smart car broke down exactly like in your article, misfiring & juddering etc.
I took it to a garage and am now told it needs new engine costing £3500.00 plus VAT, which I cannot afford, so I am now without a car.
The Car had always been serviced by Mercedes and is less then 3 years old.


2. Have been filling in my Car from an independent petrol station, Cyma in North London. At the beginning of last week after I filled up I experienced a lack of power and misfiring. Took it to my garage where it was diagnosed having put the engine on the computer, that all my four oxygen sensors have been damaged. It was also found out that the level of engine oil had increased considerably, the result of unburned petrol going into the oil engine compartment. A very costly repair.

In case of 1, I think the garage is having a laugh. As far as 2. is concerned, could unburned fuel really find its way into the sump?

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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #19 on: 01 March 2007, 20:48:59 »

Yes....it can.....

Heres the scenario.......as far as I see it......and I have ignored the usual poor reporting from the press.....

1) You have faulty fuel
2) This fuel does not fully combust in the cylinder.

The result is that the O2 sensor sees air still in the exhaust gases and richens the mixture.....it still runs and the mixture is further richened.....this continues until a fault is logged and the ECU enters limp home mode but, the car still runs rough because this poor fuel wont burn properly.....no matter what the ECU does it cant get the fuel to ignite properly......

So, we now have a rich mixture, a rough running car and fault codes.

With a mixture that is not lighting you get bore wash......the fuel gets past the piston rings with the blow by gases (they dont seal perfectly, not on any engine!) and into the sump (used to happen a lot on carb cars hich ran to rich)....this makes the oil runny....cleans the internals quite well though....but the lubricating properties of the oil are now buggered and the moving surfaces are at risk...

So onto the lambda sensors......this is the area of poor diagnosis in my opinion.

Right.....we have two lambda sensors on all of the makes which are described as suffering lambda sensor failure, one before the cat and one after it....

The O2 sensor before the cat is saying there is oxygen still in the exhaust gases (plus unburnt fuel but, the O2 cant detect fuel....)....the unburnt fuel enters the stinking hot cat....and burns.......the post cat sensor now sees no O2 left in the exhaust gases.......it thinks every thing is ok.....

Mr 'I dont understand how a modern fuel injected engine works' mechanic (the most common type around it would appear!) comes along and looks at the fault codes.....they tell him that the two O2 sensors are giving different readings....he now thinks the pre-cat sensor is goosed....he drains the fuel (well he would, its plastered over the papers...) and puts fresh in.....starts the car up again...still rough, change the O2 sensor......start it again...still a bit rough but getting better....ow yes, thats fixed it.....(there will stil be some of the old fuel in the filter and fuel rail etc)....

So yes, I can understand how it can bugger an engine.....if you are stupid enough to keep driving with it running so badly (hey, its a Smart car.....how clever can they be....its the only car that can get lost in a trolley park....) as the knackered oil buggers the bearings etc.....

Imagine the joy of all the other garages who are now changing O2 sensors and fuel as a matter of course!

Bottom line is, its bloody hard to kill an O2 sensor.......and poor fuel wont do it......my biggest concern though.....is what is it doing to the CAT....

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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #20 on: 01 March 2007, 20:54:57 »

The other shocking thing about the Smart car is the £3500 for a strimmer engine......
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #21 on: 01 March 2007, 21:00:21 »

Does that make sense to anybody......other than me?
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JamesV6CDX

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #22 on: 01 March 2007, 21:17:40 »

Quote
Does that make sense to anybody......other than me?

Yes Mark, just read that through, makes perfect sense.
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TheBoy

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #23 on: 01 March 2007, 21:35:36 »

I've been saying at work (I work in an area that seems that suffer this) that I doubted that the lamdas were knackered, and just try a reset, but the idiots in my building believe their Merc dealers and the media more. 'dangle berries' to them.
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Martin_1962

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #24 on: 01 March 2007, 21:39:48 »

I understand it - but no tests please or I will have to find something to baffle you with ;D
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Tony H

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #25 on: 01 March 2007, 22:30:20 »

Sounds a good diagnosis Mark, what I'm wondering about is how many "dodgy" garages are going to capitalise on this situation and fit parts that are not required in an effort to bump up the repair bill >:(
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #26 on: 01 March 2007, 23:28:38 »

Quote
Sounds a good diagnosis Mark, what I'm wondering about is how many "dodgy" garages are going to capitalise on this situation and fit parts that are not required in an effort to bump up the repair bill

Absolutely.

And I've seen reports now that fuel filters should be changed in addition to O2's, draining fuel tanks, etc.
Popped into a main dealer today to get a key cut and there was much fleecing going on!

Kevin
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Nickbat

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #27 on: 01 March 2007, 23:29:23 »

Makes perfect sense to me, Mark. Thanks.
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BigCat

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #28 on: 02 March 2007, 00:05:54 »

Quote
Does that make sense to anybody......other than me?

Bottom line is, its bloody hard to kill an O2 sensor.......and poor fuel wont do it......my biggest concern though.....is what is it doing to the CAT....
Makes perfect sense to me, and you're right to ask "what is it doing to the CAT", I was always led to believe that raw or unburnt fuel would damage the palladium coating in the catalytic converter.

I guess we're only just seeing the begining of this, in about six to twelve months time, at the very least there will be a run on replacement CATS, not to mention replacement engines due to failed bearings.
  
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BigCat

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Re: Dodgy petrol?
« Reply #29 on: 02 March 2007, 00:09:36 »

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The other shocking thing about the Smart car is the £3500 for a strimmer engine......
Serves 'em right for buying one in the first place  ::)
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