Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Kevin Wood]

No usb to serial adpter works with vista, as neither driver maker has released an update.

.. and very few machines have real serial ports now . Worth bearing in mind.

The thing that gets me about new windows versions is that there's clearly a lot of effort put into making it look flash and changing around the GUI and other trivia whereas the code underneath it still suffers from a lot of the same problems. M$ work on the basis that customers are stuck with them so have to figure out where they've hidden all the stuff they used to know about or lump it.

.. but then maybe that's just me. I'd rather go back to a command prompt anyway!

Kevin

[TheBoy]

No usb to serial adpter works with vista, as neither driver maker has released an update.

.. and very few machines have real serial ports now . Worth bearing in mind.

The thing that gets me about new windows versions is that there's clearly a lot of effort put into making it look flash and changing around the GUI and other trivia whereas the code underneath it still suffers from a lot of the same problems. M$ work on the basis that customers are stuck with them so have to figure out where they've hidden all the stuff they used to know about or lump it.

.. but then maybe that's just me. I'd rather go back to a command prompt anyway!

Kevin

Now, as many of you may know, my job is Unix. Therefore, I like command line (obviously we never install the crap X Windows system on any of our servers).

However, I do know an awful lot about Windows, including Vista.

I accept many people won't like Microsoft for a variety of reasons, though when pushed can never give a good one.  Microsoft make huge amounts of money, and fair play to them for it.

Vista, despite what the Linux followers may bleat, is different underneath to previous versions. Yes its based on XP codebase, but many key parts of the kernel mode dlls rewritten.  Many will look, and think its just a flash new frontend to the same old rubbish.  That is so far from the reality.  And, with all the 'NT based' versions of Windows, Microsoft have always provided more in command line than they have in GUI - they understand that sysadmins need to script lots.


What does make me giggle is its often the Linux enthusiasts that slate Microsoft.  Linux is the OS going nowhere - fundamentally it hasn't changed since its inception.  And security - how many of the Windows servers compared to Linux servers that I look after have been exploited with Day 0 attacks - another win for Windows.

Performance, hmm, tough one, as almost impossible to get a true like for like.  But Linux doesn't seem fast - certainly some of our old Solaris services which were running on really old and knackered hardware have been migrated to Linux on brand spanking Xeon based servers, and it seems those services now run slower.

Cost. Enterprise versions of Linux, needed for proper business use, are bloody expensive, so over the 3yr life of a system, Windows will probably work out cheaper.

[Kevin Wood]

I hear what you're saying, and I didn't say that the underlying code hadn't been changed in Windows, just that a lot of problems therein remained, and that a lot of time has been wasted changing things that weren't broke.

I come from a background of using and developing for both OSs but not getting terribly deeply involved in the internals of either, I must admit.

The thing that irritates me most about Windows, and I know I'm not alone, is that everything is wrapped up in a GUI that "any idiot" is supposed to be able to use to manage and configure a pretty complex system. (If only they didn't keep changing it). It doesn't take much to go wrong before you have to throw the GUI away and start poking around in the internals, and with Windows that's not documented, nor easy. Time to re-install the whole damn lot unless you really know your way around it.

Linux suffers the same thing to a degree. it has nice easy GUI based configuration tools which are useful as far as they go. However, underneath that are some much more comprehensive and documented command line tools that will get you out of trouble where the GUI tools throw in the towel, if you are prepared to have a dig around.

Case in point. I have just spent all morning trying to get a troublesome device driver working on a Windows box. It wouldn't talk to the hardware it should talk to. I swapped the hardware - no change. Tried it on another machine, and it works fine. The uninstall wizard bombed out with an error when I tried to re-install it, meaning it will now neither install nor uninstall. I'm left trying to manually remove all the files, registry settings, etc. and working totally blind. Eventually I manually uninstall it and re-install. Still doesn't work. It worked yesterday, why not today?  In the end I just reached for a new machine because there's nothing short of re-installing the whole lot that can be done with the old one.

Had this been a Linux box I would have been able to look at the documentation on the module / daemon involved, find its' configuration and check it, maybe turn on some logging to see why it's complaining and I probably would have got to the bottom of it. Hell, I could even have cracked out the source code if I'd wanted to. However, I suspect it wouldn't have decided at random one day to stop working in the first place.

I'm not convinced about the windows command line. If it does make a load of stuff accessible there's no documentation available to the average user to make use of it. It doesn't come close to a unix shell at any rate.

The main reason for my interest in Linux, however, is that I have a few machines at home. I'm not prepared to pay for Windows, MS Office, Visual Studio, etc. etc. on each of them so I can dabble, so I run something that does what I need and costs me zero. Nothing particularly religious, I just prefer not to pay 500 quid for something that's available free. I've discovered that both OSs have their strong and weak points, and if windows were the free one it'd probably be on my PC ;-)

Anyway, aren't we supposed to be talking about Omegas here?  

Kevin

[TheBoy]

The poor driver cannot be blamed on the OS.

When it comes to built in scripting, the Microsoft scripting is miles ahead of shell scripts (I'm talking WSH here).  The documentation available for the language and the objects you wish to manipulate is free and thorough - see msdn site.

As you hint at, Windows biggest problem is that people who really have no idea can set up a working (but frequently flawed) system.  The same is beginning to work with Linux as well now

I'm pleased Linux works for you, but even the most fanatical Linux user wouldn't recommend it to my 70yr old mum, who gets along with Windows nicely.  Windows is, and for the foreseeable future will remain, the best desktop.  MS Works (with Word) is a fantastic suite for most home users.  Very few home users need Office.  As Windows and Works will likely come with your £250 Dell desktop, the MS costs for most buyers is non existent - the OEM licence for Vista Basic and Works is probably around $15 to the manufacturer.  So, the cost argument doesn't work for most users.

Underlying problems which have existed for a long time? Can't think of any, except the ones tied to IA32?

[Dave-C]

With reference to the drivers issue...  I've got Home Premium on this here Toshy,  I plugged in a USB sim card reader, message said no drivers for USB to COM port adaptor....  So I sent the report to MS.. on the Monday, had the download on Wednesday....  can't fault it personally....  My PC and works laptop are both XP...  either or for me with support like MS's

DC

[theolodian]

The driver issue may not be Vista's 'fault', but it is a major problem and good reason to not use Vista for at least 6 more months.  Vista may prove to to be good, but it is to be avoided for now.  

Windows is not the only good OS, Mac's are quite good.  Safari can be a bit unstable, but OSX is great.  One thing typifies my thoughts on the hubris of MS, Windows Update.  I don't mind downloading and installing updates but the world isn't going to end if I don't reboot right away.  I don't need pop-ups every five minutes interrupting what I'm doing, or the computer destroying an hour's work by rebooting if I leave for 10 minutes because I wasn't enough of a supplicant to the altar of Bill.  SWMBO says that Windows Update is a synonym for Virus and refuses to do them.  She does have fewer problems with her laptop . . .  :-?

[TheBoy]

The driver issue may not be Vista's 'fault', but it is a major problem and good reason to not use Vista for at least 6 more months.  Vista may prove to to be good, but it is to be avoided for now.  

Windows is not the only good OS, Mac's are quite good.  Safari can be a bit unstable, but OSX is great.  One thing typifies my thoughts on the hubris of MS, Windows Update.  I don't mind downloading and installing updates but the world isn't going to end if I don't reboot right away.  I don't need pop-ups every five minutes interrupting what I'm doing, or the computer destroying an hour's work by rebooting if I leave for 10 minutes because I wasn't enough of a supplicant to the altar of Bill.  SWMBO says that Windows Update is a synonym for Virus and refuses to do them.  She does have fewer problems with her laptop . . .  :-?

Vista was launched on 1st November - that makes it 8 months old by my reckoning .  Even the consumer launch was nearly 6 months ago.

OSX isn't too bad, though, again, using my Mum as a benchmark, I think she would be more productive with Windows. OSX seems, for me, to have lost some of the Mac 'magic' if that makes sense...

Safari. Bit of a standing joke at the moment. Not a week goes by without another CERT warning

As to the reboot warnings, thats what the registry is for if its automated.  If not automated, you should only be doing updates when you are in a position to reboot.  Same applies to any system - after a system update, a reload/reboot should happen asap afterwards.

[Kevin Wood]

I don't need pop-ups every five minutes interrupting what I'm doing

Don't get me started on popups! Oh, for the days when a computer did what the user said and sat idle otherwise  

The poor driver cannot be blamed on the OS.

No, but when the whole process of installing, de-installing, etc. is hidden from me, it has to work faultlessly. Otherwise, I'd rather do the job manually and know what's been messed about with so I can get in and put it right. Whilst I've got the option to do that under Linux, with Windows it's not as simple.

even the most fanatical Linux user wouldn't recommend it to my 70yr old mum, who gets along with Windows nicely.

I appologise if I'm doing your mum a grave injustice here but I'd wager that both systems are probably overkill, and I was talking about this with a colleague at lunch time today, as a matter of fact.

Why does an average home user need a system that's effectively identical to a developer's desktop? The things they do are pretty mundane. Web browsing, email, word processing and other office apps, downloading from their digital camera, etc. All that and more could be achieved with a small internet connected "thin client" that boots instantly, won't run malicious code and takes up much less space in the house.

Connect it to a service like Google Docs & Spreadsheet (just an example!) and the headache of storing, backing up files, installing applications, etc. is gone. The unit doesn't even need any storage itself so malicious code has nowhere to hide. No more firewalls, anti-virus software, etc. or viruses if they fail or aren't updated. The user can access their desktop from anywhere on the web too.

People use computers for other things without even realising it on a day to day basis, and because they're leaned down to the task in hand there's no hassle involved. When's the last time you had to wait for your Motronic to boot, or had to remove a virus from your set top box?  

Kevin

[theolodian]

Vista was launched on 1st November - that makes it 8 months old by my reckoning .  Even the consumer launch was nearly 6 months ago.

OSX isn't too bad, though, again, using my Mum as a benchmark, I think she would be more productive with Windows. OSX seems, for me, to have lost some of the Mac 'magic' if that makes sense...

Safari. Bit of a standing joke at the moment. Not a week goes by without another CERT warning

As to the reboot warnings, thats what the registry is for if its automated.  If not automated, you should only be doing updates when you are in a position to reboot.  Same applies to any system - after a system update, a reload/reboot should happen asap afterwards.

Yeah, I said 6 MORE months.  Every laptop that I have seen bought this year with Vista has gone back for an XP laptop or increasingly Macbooks.  One mate just left for Japan with 2 laptops, an old and crippled XP laptop and a new Vista laptop.  The whole trip is based around doing things that DON'T WORK UNDER VISTA, but the other laptop barely fires up any more so he has the Vista laptop for email, etc.  For Pete's sake don't get 64 bit Vista, even less runs on that!

If you have to reboot ASAP, then why does it say that you can continue your work if you install the updates?  :-?

[TheBoy]

I don't need pop-ups every five minutes interrupting what I'm doing

Don't get me started on popups! Oh, for the days when a computer did what the user said and sat idle otherwise  

The poor driver cannot be blamed on the OS.

No, but when the whole process of installing, de-installing, etc. is hidden from me, it has to work faultlessly. Otherwise, I'd rather do the job manually and know what's been messed about with so I can get in and put it right. Whilst I've got the option to do that under Linux, with Windows it's not as simple.

even the most fanatical Linux user wouldn't recommend it to my 70yr old mum, who gets along with Windows nicely.

I appologise if I'm doing your mum a grave injustice here but I'd wager that both systems are probably overkill, and I was talking about this with a colleague at lunch time today, as a matter of fact.

Why does an average home user need a system that's effectively identical to a developer's desktop? The things they do are pretty mundane. Web browsing, email, word processing and other office apps, downloading from their digital camera, etc. All that and more could be achieved with a small internet connected "thin client" that boots instantly, won't run malicious code and takes up much less space in the house.

Connect it to a service like Google Docs & Spreadsheet (just an example!) and the headache of storing, backing up files, installing applications, etc. is gone. The unit doesn't even need any storage itself so malicious code has nowhere to hide. No more firewalls, anti-virus software, etc. or viruses if they fail or aren't updated. The user can access their desktop from anywhere on the web too.

People use computers for other things without even realising it on a day to day basis, and because they're leaned down to the task in hand there's no hassle involved. When's the last time you had to wait for your Motronic to boot, or had to remove a virus from your set top box?  

Kevin

Some software and drivers under Linux scatter files all over the shop, with no uninstaller, so searching through /usr/bin /usr/sbin /usr/local/bin /etc and so on.  Again, those Win apps that obey the rules tend to come on and off OK. MSI is a good technology, but you always get people who want to push it beyond its design...

I agree, for my Mum's use - web, email, word processing, dtp for a column she does for local rag, digi pics, mp3s etc are her main requirements - it is overkill.  But its easy to use (for her) overkill. And its reliable, and secure.

The TC won't work until broadband speeds and reliability, not to mention caps etc, are hugely improved.  Local storage will always beat high latency storage, and with drive prices so cheap, it will be hard to convince consumers otherwise. Look at Citrix Winframe/Metaframe/Presentation Server or whatever its called this version - probably the best thin client system currently available.  Is it widely used? Not really, though does well in its niche...

Not that convinced that the rented webapps will be that big tbh.  I was installing 'rented apps over Internet' platforms a few years ago.  Never really took off, as the sales people couldn't sell it.  At a consumer level, persuading people to rent software will be difficult. In large business, may be easier, but server performance may well become a huge issue. And with heavily locked down workstations, breaking the OS shouldn't be an issue.

[TheBoy]

If you have to reboot ASAP, then why does it say that you can continue your work if you install the updates?  :-?

Precisely that - carry on working whilst the updates are being deployed. Just reboot as soon as they are finished.

[theolodian]

If you have to reboot ASAP, then why does it say that you can continue your work if you install the updates?  :-?

Precisely that - carry on working whilst the updates are being deployed. Just reboot as soon as they are finished.

Yeah, well, some work can't be saved.  If you reboot you have to start all over again.

[Kevin Wood]

I agree. None of this is really an option yet, but it is interesting to think outside the box every now and then.

After all, 5 years ago my only internet access was using a 56k dialup modem. Now I've got a mobile phone that's way smaller than the one I had then with a better internet connection than I had at home.

It does make me wonder what the future has in store. Will we keep just scaling up the things we have today or will something radical happen?  8-)

Kevin

[TheBoy]

I agree. None of this is really an option yet, but it is interesting to think outside the box every now and then.

After all, 5 years ago my only internet access was using a 56k dialup modem. Now I've got a mobile phone that's way smaller than the one I had then with a better internet connection than I had at home.

It does make me wonder what the future has in store. Will we keep just scaling up the things we have today or will something radical happen?  8-)

Kevin

5 years ago, I had a broadband connection, then for several years before, ISDN.  Trying to think if I ever had 56k dialup at home, think I went from 28800 to ISDN, it was that long ago.  How anyone could use analogue modems for internet access is beyond me.....

I agree with what you say - my first modem was 2400, even GSM is 9600 (and was 10 years ago).  My Windows phone is probably more powerful than my first Win95 PC.....

[Kevin Wood]

I was going to get ISDN, then BT got the hump and told me I'd have to relinquish my 5 digit phone number - just after I'd moved in and told everyone my number - so I waited for broadband.  

The mobile phone test gear I work with supports HSDPA. Seeing megabits go through a mobile phone is a wake up call. However, that's effectively with a bit of coax between phone and base station. I wonder what throughput'll be like in the real world. Plenty of quicker stuff in the pipeline too. Just need the Tunnies of the world to dream up some applications before the service providers get cold feet.

Not that Tunnie gets as much time to dream now

Kevin