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[Varche]

Well today is the day.

Will it be a breakthrough that both sides can work with?

Is it just grandstanding? Going through the motions as we head for the 31st Oct.

As Cleverly says , it is the moment of truth. Maybe it is just a moment of truth of many more.

[Doctor Gollum]

We've spent the last three years trying to reason with a body that has no interest or incentive whatsoever to negotiate anything put to them...

I cannot see today being any different 

[Raeturbo]

I agree, I’m afraid it’s their way or no way, and it’s clear it’s been that from the start, we simply should have stated our terms at the outset, try to compromise, and when that failed we should have got out ASAP.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Just been listening to the news.

Is Boris thinking of throwing N. Ireland under the bus?......or do I have it wrong?

[Doctor Gollum]

Just been listening to the news.

Is Boris thinking of throwing N. Ireland under the bus?......or do I have it wrong?

You have it wrong, I think, but he is certainly putting the onus on to Eire/the EU to sort their border out.

[Nick W]

Just been listening to the news.

Is Boris thinking of throwing N. Ireland under the bus?......or do I have it wrong?

You have it wrong, I think, but he is certainly putting the onus on to Eire/the EU to sort their border out.

It's our border too, and isn't part of Brexit about getting control of them back?


We've spent over a 1000 years causing trouble in Ireland; it's way past time that the whole island was just Ireland

[TheBoy]

I agree, I’m afraid it’s their way or no way, and it’s clear it’s been that from the start, we simply should have stated our terms at the outset, try to compromise, and when that failed we should have got out ASAP.

But a lot of people voted on the promise that the EU would role over, let us have our cake and eat it. Well, that and the already backtracked promise of £349m a week extra to the NHS.

All but the completely brainwashed know a no deal exit is financial suicide for generations.


Although I'm beyond caring, as long as we do something at the end of the month. Leave, stay, surrender to the Nazis, commit mass suicide. Just not extended it further.

[Doctor Gollum]

That number was on the bus with an NHS logo and was to highlight just how much money we waste on the EU membership as spending that much on the NHS would be equally pointless.

[TheBoy]

That number was on the bus with an NHS logo and was to highlight just how much money we waste on the EU membership as spending that much on the NHS would be equally pointless.

Hardline brexiteers are backtracking on it, now chief brainwasher Farage has backtracked on it, but go and look at the pic of the bus again.  Very evidently, its implying that £349m a week would be spent on the NHS.


Which I agree is a waste of money. But that doesn't make an outright naughty porkie suddenly OK.

[STEMO]

Here we go. It doesn't matter what the EU says, old man Corbyn doesn't like it.

[TheBoy]

Here we go. It doesn't matter what the EU says, old man Corbyn doesn't like it.

His standard response seems to be to disagree.

[STEMO]

I really can't see why the EU don't just say no deal now. How can we possibly end up anywhere else? Nothing, but nothing, will get through parliament, so a no deal has to be the end result.

[TheBoy]

I really can't see why the EU don't just say no deal now. How can we possibly end up anywhere else? Nothing, but nothing, will get through parliament, so a no deal has to be the end result.

That's a UK problem, not an EU problem.

[STEMO]

I really can't see why the EU don't just say no deal now. How can we possibly end up anywhere else? Nothing, but nothing, will get through parliament, so a no deal has to be the end result.

That's a UK problem, not an EU problem.

What difference does that make? Still no deal.

[TheBoy]

I really can't see why the EU don't just say no deal now. How can we possibly end up anywhere else? Nothing, but nothing, will get through parliament, so a no deal has to be the end result.

That's a UK problem, not an EU problem.

What difference does that make? Still no deal.

The EU don't need to look like blockers here, so why would they?

I'm sure they know the UK wont agree that "deal", Boris knows it, in fact it smells of another delay method by Boris to get nearer the 31st date

[STEMO]

I really can't see why the EU don't just say no deal now. How can we possibly end up anywhere else? Nothing, but nothing, will get through parliament, so a no deal has to be the end result.

That's a UK problem, not an EU problem.

What difference does that make? Still no deal.

The EU don't need to look like blockers here, so why would they?

I'm sure they know the UK wont agree that "deal", Boris knows it, in fact it smells of another delay method by Boris to get nearer the 31st date

You're doing the blame game thing. No one cares, why should they? If we leave with no deal, do we then spend three years arguing about who's fault it was? Out is out, and it really makes no difference who's fault it is.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Here we go. It doesn't matter what the EU says, old man Corbyn doesn't like it.

His standard response seems to be to disagree.

Yes. He like to oppose, almost as if he is  a member of the opposition.....

[STEMO]

Inserted below cause Opti poked his nose in 

[STEMO]

I really can't see why the EU don't just say no deal now. How can we possibly end up anywhere else? Nothing, but nothing, will get through parliament, so a no deal has to be the end result.

That's a UK problem, not an EU problem.

What difference does that make? Still no deal.

The EU don't need to look like blockers here, so why would they?

I'm sure they know the UK wont agree that "deal", Boris knows it, in fact it smells of another delay method by Boris to get nearer the 31st date

You're doing the blame game thing. No one cares, why should they? If we leave with no deal, do we then spend three years arguing about who's fault it was? Out is out, and it really makes no difference who's fault it is.

Ah, I might have misunderstood your reply, sorry.

Thing is, if parliament refuses to pass any deal, then no deal (or revoking art. 50) are the only two options.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

That number was on the bus with an NHS logo and was to highlight just how much money we waste on the EU membership as spending that much on the NHS would be equally pointless.

Hardline brexiteers are backtracking on it, now chief brainwasher Farage has backtracked on it, but go and look at the pic of the bus again.  Very evidently, its implying that £349m a week would be spent on the NHS.


Which I agree is a waste of money. But that doesn't make an outright naughty porkie suddenly OK.

The numbers on the bus was part of the official leave campaign run by Dominic Cummings with Boris, Gove etc. Farage and Aaron Banks ran a completely separate, unconnected campaign, and criticised the numbers on the bus at the time.
Nothing to do with Farage whatsoever, then or now.

Nick W clearly knows less than nothing on Irish matters, but that aside. If the UK commit to not putting up a border in Ireland, it immediately becomes an EU/ROI problem ,as the ROI really wont want it, but the EU will have no choice but to force them to install one to protect their single market. It wont work of course, because there is nothing that will ever stop that border being as porous as a sponge.

[Sir Tigger KC]

From what I can make out Boris's customs checks part of the plan seems just as suitable for a clean break Brexit as leaving with a deal. 

[Varche]

Anyone seen Switzerlands “ hard  border” with the EU.?

[MCU]

well . I'm a swede and i buy a lot of car parts from the uk since i like omegas. But to be frank the uk is a good place to buy stuff. I a Brexit becomes a reality, you guys really stand to loose a lot from that... the uk is a very good market forre just about everything. But vat and fees would kill my wallet so to speak... Brexit is a terrible idea and a really feel sorry for all the Brits who want to stay in the Eu or make a better planned Brexit, to not loose business.

[Varche]

Interesting post  and perspective MCU.

Prices you pay buying from a post Brexit Britain will have to increase as a punishment for having the temerity of leaving the EU and to stop any other country thinking of leaving. You will be able to get Omega parts from Germany.

It is true that the issue of Brexit is very divisive especially in Britain. Less so in EU countries especially those that are not net contributors to the EU budget. What is not to like with free money for hospital, road and rail projects.?

You say Brexit is a terrible idea. I find the EU goal of a Federal Europe led by leaders selected by the establishment a terrible idea.

The real shame is the Common market we joined was a good idea. It changed into its current format without the consent of the ordinary man in the British Street.

[Raeturbo]

^^^^YES^^^^

[Doctor Gollum]

well . I'm a swede and i buy a lot of car parts from the uk since i like omegas. But to be frank the uk is a good place to buy stuff. I a Brexit becomes a reality, you guys really stand to loose a lot from that... the uk is a very good market forre just about everything. But vat and fees would kill my wallet so to speak... Brexit is a terrible idea and a really feel sorry for all the Brits who want to stay in the Eu or make a better planned Brexit, to not loose business.

A slightly skewed perspective... The duties and tariffs will be charged by Sweden (the EU) on arrival and won't be set by us.

As customers, we reserve the right to buy from where we choose. Import duties and freight costs are a burden we all bear, regardless of where we live or purchase.

The EU may well slap ridiculous taxes on goods imported from the UK, but it will be just as detrimental to the EU as it will the UK. In fact, if it were to happen, I strongly suspect that you will find that prices within the EU will rise to almost the same level as tariffed goods imported from the UK. You also have the option of driving to Norway, so if it really were that bad, you could set up a PO box in Norway and have everything shipped there if the tariffs are more favourable...

[TheBoy]

well . I'm a swede and i buy a lot of car parts from the uk since i like omegas. But to be frank the uk is a good place to buy stuff. I a Brexit becomes a reality, you guys really stand to loose a lot from that... the uk is a very good market forre just about everything. But vat and fees would kill my wallet so to speak... Brexit is a terrible idea and a really feel sorry for all the Brits who want to stay in the Eu or make a better planned Brexit, to not loose business.

Many of the more vocal members on this site are very pro Brexit at any cost, so I admire you're bravery.  Its also good to here another perspective, as the British perspective on it all is so polar, and frankly tedious.

Whilst Europe is not without it major issues, and desperately needs reform, I personally think its a stupid idea to leave. As does just about every economist out there.  But because its such a divisive issue, the leave-at-any-cost followers cannot see whats coming, and the remainers can't grasp the democratic process that was undertaken (mostly, I suspect, as what is being offered is not what the middle ground leavers voted for).

[Varche]

Well we have been here many times before. The short term economic costs are academic with a long term view. The key question is what is right. Be part of a club run by unelected leaders with their own agenda and be comfortable OR leave and make our own way with our own rules and own elected leaders.

I make no apology for using my analogy with a failed marriage. You either fix it or leave. Doing nothing and hoping things will improve is not an option. The issue for many  is how badly off are you in the failed marriage ( financially, physically, mentally) . Everyone has different thresholds.

[STEMO]

well . I'm a swede and i buy a lot of car parts from the uk since i like omegas. But to be frank the uk is a good place to buy stuff. I a Brexit becomes a reality, you guys really stand to loose a lot from that... the uk is a very good market forre just about everything. But vat and fees would kill my wallet so to speak... Brexit is a terrible idea and a really feel sorry for all the Brits who want to stay in the Eu or make a better planned Brexit, to not loose business.

Many of the more vocal members on this site are very pro Brexit at any cost, so I admire you're bravery.  Its also good to here another perspective, as the British perspective on it all is so polar, and frankly tedious.

Whilst Europe is not without it major issues, and desperately needs reform, I personally think its a stupid idea to leave. As does just about every economist out there.  But because its such a divisive issue, the leave-at-any-cost followers cannot see whats coming, and the remainers can't grasp the democratic process that was undertaken (mostly, I suspect, as what is being offered is not what the middle ground leavers voted for).

I'm a leave at any cost brexiteer and I can certainly see what's coming. Nothing a stiff upper lip won't sort out. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

well . I'm a swede and i buy a lot of car parts from the uk since i like omegas. But to be frank the uk is a good place to buy stuff. I a Brexit becomes a reality, you guys really stand to loose a lot from that... the uk is a very good market forre just about everything. But vat and fees would kill my wallet so to speak... Brexit is a terrible idea and a really feel sorry for all the Brits who want to stay in the Eu or make a better planned Brexit, to not loose business.

Many of the more vocal members on this site are very pro Brexit at any cost, so I admire you're bravery.  Its also good to here another perspective, as the British perspective on it all is so polar, and frankly tedious.

Whilst Europe is not without it major issues, and desperately needs reform, I personally think its a stupid idea to leave. As does just about every economist out there.  But because its such a divisive issue, the leave-at-any-cost followers cannot see whats coming, and the remainers can't grasp the democratic process that was undertaken (mostly, I suspect, as what is being offered is not what the middle ground leavers voted for).

I'm a leave at any cost brexiteer and I can certainly see what's coming. Nothing a stiff upper lip won't sort out. 

Your memory is poor. Barnsley left the EU on the 29th march 2019. You and the whippet are now free men.

[TheBoy]

The short term economic costs are academic with a long term view.

Depends on your definition of short term.  Most respective economists expect the impact of a no deal to be for multiple generations, ie at least 30yrs.  That isn't short term to me.

The key question is what is right. Be part of a club run by unelected leaders with their own agenda and be comfortable OR leave and make our own way with our own rules and own elected leaders.

By cutting off your nose to spite your face?  Sometimes usually an element of pragmatism is needed.  But the nature of this whole debate means nobody is prepared to compromise, as the previous PM found out.

[Shackeng]

well . I'm a swede and i buy a lot of car parts from the uk since i like omegas. But to be frank the uk is a good place to buy stuff. I a Brexit becomes a reality, you guys really stand to loose a lot from that... the uk is a very good market forre just about everything. But vat and fees would kill my wallet so to speak... Brexit is a terrible idea and a really feel sorry for all the Brits who want to stay in the Eu or make a better planned Brexit, to not loose business.

Many of the more vocal members on this site are very pro Brexit at any cost, so I admire you're bravery.  Its also good to here another perspective, as the British perspective on it all is so polar, and frankly tedious.

Whilst Europe is not without it major issues, and desperately needs reform, I personally think its a stupid idea to leave. As does just about every economist out there.  But because its such a divisive issue, the leave-at-any-cost followers cannot see whats coming, and the remainers can't grasp the democratic process that was undertaken (mostly, I suspect, as what is being offered is not what the middle ground leavers voted for).

Ooops, you may have blown your credibility there TB. Praying in aid economists’ opinions will convince no-one. You’ll be introducing Trump to save the planet next. 

[Bigron]

Please can someone explain this to me: if so many EU lovers predict disaster if we leave, doesn't that imply that things were dreadful before we joined and untold riches befell us after we joined?
I have no such recollection.....

Ron.

[Doctor Gollum]

According to ITV news, the EU has concerns over the proposals.

As I understand it, they have zero intention of agreeing to anything, so what pray tell, are they concerned about 

We could agree to every single thing they demand and have Mother Theresa (no relation) deliver it in person and they would still be concerned.

In the last three years they have spent as much time refusing to negotiate as we have faffing around

[Raeturbo]

Exactly, and that’s why we should tell them to fk off and make us an offer, so we can tell them to fk off again

[TheBoy]

well . I'm a swede and i buy a lot of car parts from the uk since i like omegas. But to be frank the uk is a good place to buy stuff. I a Brexit becomes a reality, you guys really stand to loose a lot from that... the uk is a very good market forre just about everything. But vat and fees would kill my wallet so to speak... Brexit is a terrible idea and a really feel sorry for all the Brits who want to stay in the Eu or make a better planned Brexit, to not loose business.

Many of the more vocal members on this site are very pro Brexit at any cost, so I admire you're bravery.  Its also good to here another perspective, as the British perspective on it all is so polar, and frankly tedious.

Whilst Europe is not without it major issues, and desperately needs reform, I personally think its a stupid idea to leave. As does just about every economist out there.  But because its such a divisive issue, the leave-at-any-cost followers cannot see whats coming, and the remainers can't grasp the democratic process that was undertaken (mostly, I suspect, as what is being offered is not what the middle ground leavers voted for).

Ooops, you may have blown your credibility there TB. Praying in aid economists’ opinions will convince no-one. You’ll be introducing Trump to save the planet next. 

Did you quote the wrong post there Shack

Trump may not be much good for the environment, but he is what America currently needs - hence the US's economy.  But his antics to stay there might be his undoing.  But he polarises people in the same way as Brexit does, so good analogy

[Varche]

There is an interesting phrase there in quotes.

Whilst Europe is not without its major issues and desperately needs reform.

Die hard remainers that I talk with use a phrase “ change within”. Trouble is the agenda is set by the establishment who then select candidates to carry that out as EU leaders. We saw that with Van der Leyen . There wont be any reform as it would be contrary to the goals. I admire the single mindedness but dont see much chance of reform.

[Varche]

Just a thought

Boris can send his Benn letter to the EU On the 19 th Oct begging for an extension if there is no deal VIA the Spanish postal system . It should arrive in Brussels sometime in November 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Funnily enough, I said to swmbo earlier that he could put a second class stamp on it and post it from somewhere remote and it wont stand a chance of getting there on time.

[Olympia5776]

I just caught the tail end of a report on Sky this evening in which it was stated ( if true ) that after the ruling today in the High Court in Edinburgh if Boris does not comply and beg for another extension the clerk of the court has the jurisdiction to , and will ,write to Brussels asking for one.
Wtf......
I hope you English can see that Scotland , Ireland and the members of the EU are all locking you into something that you voted to leave.
I hope you remember that.
I'm pretty ashamed to be Scottish just now.

[Raeturbo]

^^^ agreed what can we do.

[Doctor Gollum]

^^^ agreed what can we do.

Leave on the 31st and sod the lot of them.

[Rods2]

The short term economic costs are academic with a long term view.

Depends on your definition of short term.  Most respective economists expect the impact of a no deal to be for multiple generations, ie at least 30yrs.  That isn't short term to me.

The key question is what is right. Be part of a club run by unelected leaders with their own agenda and be comfortable OR leave and make our own way with our own rules and own elected leaders.

By cutting off your nose to spite your face?  Sometimes usually an element of pragmatism is needed.  But the nature of this whole debate means nobody is prepared to compromise, as the previous PM found out.

This is not what many economists think at all including our pre-eminent one Professor Sir Patrick Minford who sees the global free trade opportunities for the UK post-Brexit as positive, as does the chief economist at Deutsche Bank. The Eurozone is doing so well that is still at -2% overall growth since 2008, as the globe's worst performing trading block and at the other end China is at more than +200%, with most other nations positive including the UK, with US doing better than us. We have been offered a place in TPP where the opportunities of being in the heart of the fast growing Pacific rim economies that show the failing EU for what it is where economics takes a poor second place to politics in this political project.

[Raeturbo]

I really hope we can and do we need out