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[Doctor Gollum]

No arse/face jokes please, this is a serious point. Use of the words I/we/you refer to society rather than anyone individually.

There are alot of discussions surrounding fulfilment and overall happiness at work and in general. Granted, some of those things that make work miserable are down to the way employers treat their slaves workforce... But what about the rest?  I know we all would like to believe that we work to live, but factor in the pressures of trying to keep up with the Joneses and it invariably ends up the other way around...

We simply have to have the latest phone or car or kitchen. Not to mention drink the right coffee or eat the right brand of organic tofu ands so on. In fact pretty much everything we spend our hard earned on is either buying life's must haves or servicing the finance to do so.

Borrowing is such a normality that we haven't even realised what harm we are inflicting on our youth by way of crippling student loan debt...

Currently more than £16 billion is loaned to around one million students in England each year. The value of outstanding loans at the end of March 2019 reached £121 billion. The Government forecasts the value of outstanding loans to be around £450 billion (2018‑19 prices) by the middle of this century.

These debt encumbered millions, bearing in mind not all of them complete their studies, spend their entire working lives being targeted to buy things they don't need in order to impress people they don't like, and because by and large they are clinically depressed from constantly slogging away to be 'normal', they end up trapped in this endless cycle of consumerism. Which does the world no good.

Remove the normality of this debt cycle, and people would not only spend their time actually enjoying the fruits of their labours, but also the labours themselves, thereby becoming a far happier and more fulfilled society, without the need to constantly buy crap 'because you deserve it'.

This in turn would help the environment by generating less consumption of resources and less unrecyclable waste.

So rather than making misguided grand gestures as a political pawn of the environmental brigade, perhaps Greta, and society as a whole, could be starting a paradigm shift in a far better way? After all, people tend to be more worried about servicing their bills than polar bears and plastic beads...

Incidentally, I am not suggesting that existing student loans should be wiped clean, but rather that we stop adding to the debt. How this might be achieved is a whole different issue, but could reasonably include commercial sponsorship and PAYG.

[Varche]

One of the reasons we moved abroad was to break out of the living to work ethic. Working to live is far more desirable.

During this week in the UK, I have observed folk out enjoying themselves but glued to texting or whatever instead of talking to the group they are with.

[Lizzie Zoom]

An excellent post DG, that really does cover a lot about the modern society we live in, and especially in regards to the younger generations.

As for answers to it all, I really do not know what anyone, especially our current batch of politicians, can do to alter what is one of the pitfalls of a capitalist society, that most, including, me buy into!  Student loans is a difficult one as we must encourage as many youngsters as possible, of those suitable, to gain as much knowledge and official qualifications as possible, for the sake of our future economy.  They will be the ones to generate growth and wealth.

If we do not give them the advantage of State sponsored loans and grants, then many will simply not go into higher education and fulfil their potential. If the State just simply pays for the fees direct to the university, then a) that would be considered unfair to all those who cannot go down that route and b) there would be no feeling of obligation on the young student to fulfil their part of the "investment in their future" and many would just take it for granted with many probably 'dropping out' when the going gets tough!

No, I think on balance the current system works best, but the yearly fee for the average uni being £9,000 is too high and should revert to something like the £3,000 it was, perhaps £4,000. Then the student has a financial and moral obligation to complete their course and gaining the best qualifications they can, whilst the State, which will gain in the long term, pays for a 'stake' as well.  I would though put a proviso on the student that they must stay earning in the UK for at least 7 years after the gaining of qualifications to give a return on the State's environment.

Apart from that, the rest would only change if Capitalism ceased, but we all recognise that there is no better system yet discovered!  As for the environmental connection, just look at Communist China and what they are not doing to protect it, unlike the capitalist countries of the World:D    

[Doctor Gollum]

Just to be clear, £121 BILLION in student loans remain unpaid as of March this year. This is regardless of whether  students complete their fields of study.

If you had been faced with starting your career at 21 with a £27,000 loan burden, would you have made the same choices? If not, why should today be any different?

A paid for education isn't a bad thing, far from it, but an endebted one surely is.

Remove the student loan system, and higher education will actually become far more accessible as the price will plummet.

[scimmy_man]

I have long been of the opinion that employers should pay for the degree course if they need one, possibly with a golden handcuff clause if the staff member leaves before a set time?

the history of art etc should be doubled in price as they tend to be a waste of time,
doctors nurses and stuff we actually need should be funded from the public purse.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Just to be clear, £121 BILLION in student loans remain unpaid as of March this year. This is regardless of whether  students complete their fields of study.

If you had been faced with starting your career at 21 with a £27,000 loan burden, would you have made the same choices? If not, why should today be any different?

A paid for education isn't a bad thing, far from it, but an endebted one surely is.

Remove the student loan system, and higher education will actually become far more accessible as the price will plummet.

Yes, that is one hell of a figure!

To make it worse, if the current system continues, the debt will rise to £450 billion by the middle of the century!

This will never be paid off, and all we can hope for is that the successful graduates make the most of their qualifications and earn huge money for our economy.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Just to be clear, £121 BILLION in student loans remain unpaid as of March this year. This is regardless of whether  students complete their fields of study.

If you had been faced with starting your career at 21 with a £27,000 loan burden, would you have made the same choices? If not, why should today be any different?

A paid for education isn't a bad thing, far from it, but an endebted one surely is.

Remove the student loan system, and higher education will actually become far more accessible as the price will plummet.

This is not true debt in the  way as money outstanding on a mortgage or car loan is debt. The government will never get it's paws on most of this, or even expect to.

In reality student loans are no more than a tax on future earnings. I think the figure is 9% on all earnings above £20,000 P/A.So if you earn £22000 you will pay 9% on £2000.....which is £180. If you earn less than £20000 you pay nothing, and never will.

It's a tax not a loan.

[STEMO]

Just to be clear, £121 BILLION in student loans remain unpaid as of March this year. This is regardless of whether  students complete their fields of study.

If you had been faced with starting your career at 21 with a £27,000 loan burden, would you have made the same choices? If not, why should today be any different?

A paid for education isn't a bad thing, far from it, but an endebted one surely is.

Remove the student loan system, and higher education will actually become far more accessible as the price will plummet.

This is not true debt in the  way as money outstanding on a mortgage or car loan is debt. The government will never get it's paws on most of this, or even expect to.

In reality student loans are no more than a tax on future earnings. I think the figure is 9% on all earnings above £20,000 P/A.So if you earn £22000 you will pay 9% on £2000.....which is £180. If you earn less than £20000 you pay nothing, and never will.

It's a tax not a loan.

9% above £25,000 at the moment. Interest is added to the loan at 6.1% per annum from the April after you finish your first year.
My lad is in his third year and, thus far, has borrowed around £39,750, but he will already owe more than that as he's had interest added for about a year and a half now.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Just to be clear, £121 BILLION in student loans remain unpaid as of March this year. This is regardless of whether  students complete their fields of study.

If you had been faced with starting your career at 21 with a £27,000 loan burden, would you have made the same choices? If not, why should today be any different?

A paid for education isn't a bad thing, far from it, but an endebted one surely is.

Remove the student loan system, and higher education will actually become far more accessible as the price will plummet.

This is not true debt in the  way as money outstanding on a mortgage or car loan is debt. The government will never get it's paws on most of this, or even expect to.

In reality student loans are no more than a tax on future earnings. I think the figure is 9% on all earnings above £20,000 P/A.So if you earn £22000 you will pay 9% on £2000.....which is £180. If you earn less than £20000 you pay nothing, and never will.

It's a tax not a loan.

9% above £25,000 at the moment. Interest is added to the loan at 6.1% per annum from the April after you finish your first year.
My lad is in his third year and, thus far, has borrowed around £39,750, but he will already owe more than that as he's had interest added for about a year and a half now.

I stand corrected.

With real debt they come after you regardless of how much you have or earn. No so with student debt.....but I can see why people worry.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

6.1% interest is a bit steep.

[STEMO]

I worry. If he earns, say £50,000 a year...20% income tax, 12% NI, 9% student loan and, if he goes into teaching, 10% pension contributions. That's half his wages gone before he sees them.

[STEMO]

And anything over 50 grand, income tax @40%. That's 71% gone.

[aaronjb]

And anything over 50 grand, income tax @40%. That's 71% gone.

Psh, that's not even the highest rate tax.

[STEMO]

I worry. If he earns, say £50,000 a year...20% income tax, 12% NI, 9% student loan and, if he goes into teaching, 10% pension contributions. That's half his wages gone before he sees them.

That's not taking into account his personal tax allowance.

[STEMO]

And anything over 50 grand, income tax @40%. That's 71% gone.

Psh, that's not even the highest rate tax.

No, 45% over £150 grand....he won't ever earn that. I take it you do?

[aaronjb]

And anything over 50 grand, income tax @40%. That's 71% gone.

Psh, that's not even the highest rate tax.

No, 45% over £150 grand....he won't ever earn that. I take it you do?

I do not, sadly.. there's also the loss of personal allowance once you are over a threshold (£125k now, I think, previously £100k) to drive the overall percentage up some more.

Don't even look at secondary taxes (VAT, fuel duty, insurance premium tax etc).. I'm sure the effective tax rate is about 120% at this point

[STEMO]

When you look at it, it's just a way of going back to university being just for the privileged. Rich kids parents pay the fees up front, so they keep more of the money they earn.

[Doctor Gollum]

When you look at it, it's just a way of going back to university being just for the privileged. Rich kids parents pay the fees up front, so they keep more of the money they earn.

Not at all, but it will focus those who genuinely want to go.

PAYG and a flexible job should suffice... It should be affordable from flipping burgers or delivering pizzas/parcels 20 hours a week. If that means not getting wasted for three years, good. Might teach the snowflakes a thing or two about responsibility along the way.

[STEMO]

When you look at it, it's just a way of going back to university being just for the privileged. Rich kids parents pay the fees up front, so they keep more of the money they earn.

Not at all, but it will focus those who genuinely want to go.

PAYG and a flexible job should suffice... It should be affordable from flipping burgers or delivering pizzas/parcels 20 hours a week. If that means not getting wasted for three years, good. Might teach the snowflakes a thing or two about responsibility along the way.

God you talk shite sometimes.

[Doctor Gollum]

Possibly, but would you rather your son, for example, didn't have a £40k debt to deal with?

[STEMO]

Possibly, but would you rather your son, for example, didn't have a £40k debt to deal with?

It will be closer to £70K when he's finished. His accommodation is £6K a year, and that's in student halls.

[Nick W]

I worry. If he earns, say £50,000 a year...20% income tax, 12% NI, 9% student loan and, if he goes into teaching, 10% pension contributions. That's half his wages gone before he sees them.

I know a couple of 30year old teachers who can't afford any sort of payrise as they'll have to start paying off the loan rather than just the interest.

[Raeturbo]

It that case it’s no longer a loan but a donation

[Doctor Gollum]

I worry. If he earns, say £50,000 a year...20% income tax, 12% NI, 9% student loan and, if he goes into teaching, 10% pension contributions. That's half his wages gone before he sees them.

I know a couple of 30year old teachers who can't afford any sort of payrise as they'll have to start paying off the loan rather than just the interest.

Are they retarded? Why on earth would otherwise intelligent people deliberately put themselves in that position?

[Doctor Gollum]

I worry. If he earns, say £50,000 a year...20% income tax, 12% NI, 9% student loan and, if he goes into teaching, 10% pension contributions. That's half his wages gone before he sees them.

I know a couple of 30year old teachers who can't afford any sort of payrise as they'll have to start paying off the loan rather than just the interest.

Are they retarded? Why on earth would otherwise intelligent people deliberately put themselves in that position?

That's like saying they don't want to earn more in case they pay more tax.

[Raeturbo]

I would say a person would be very lucky and should be grateful to be in that position. It was the loan that enabled them to get where they are and so they should be only too willing to pay it back especially as there is a large majority who have to manage on far less than a third of that and pay taxes etc and little chance of earning more. Besides when the debt is paid its full pay again, and
£50,000 ain’t a bad wage.

[STEMO]

I would say a person would be very lucky and should be grateful to be in that position. It was the loan that enabled them to get where they are and so they should be only too willing to pay it back especially as there is a large majority who have to manage on far less than a third of that and pay taxes etc and little chance of earning more. Besides when the debt is paid its full pay again, and
£50,000 ain’t a bad wage.

That's the thing, it will never be repaid and is written off after 30 years.......when you're in your mid fifties.

[Raeturbo]

Mm, not good.

[Doctor Gollum]

Be interesting to try and get a mortgage with £70k worth of student loans hanging around your neck...

Let alone afford one whilst trying to avoid earning enough to repay the student loans

[STEMO]

Be interesting to try and get a mortgage with £70k worth of student loans hanging around your neck...

Let alone afford one whilst trying to avoid earning enough to repay the student loans

Yep. I raised these concerns when he first said he was going to uni, but was shot down in flames by him and the wife(who went to uni for free). So I've washed my hands of it, I'll probably be sitting in the corner dribbling by the time he starts worrying about it.

[ronnyd]

Be interesting to try and get a mortgage with £70k worth of student loans hanging around your neck...

Let alone afford one whilst trying to avoid earning enough to repay the student loans

Yep. I raised these concerns when he first said he was going to uni, but was shot down in flames by him and the wife(who went to uni for free). So I've washed my hands of it, I'll probably be sitting in the corner dribbling by the time he starts worrying about it.

Thought you were at that stage already.

[Rods2]

A generalization is the intellectually harder the degree, the better the university & demand for people with those degrees the higher the difference in lifetime earnings with medicine, maths, engineering & science degrees all falling into this category as these statistics show with the best & worst league tables for this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41693230

Steve, your lad should do well.

[Doctor Gollum]

A generalization is the intellectually harder the degree, the better the university & demand for people with those degrees the higher the difference in lifetime earnings with medicine, maths, engineering & science degrees all falling into this category as these statistics show with the best & worst league tables for this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41693230

Steve, your lad should do well.

When did anyone last ask their GP/architect/dentist/optician* where they went to university?

*I appreciate that a rare or specific issue might warrant some concern over real experience of said issue, but that's hardly a generalisation