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Author Topic: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?  (Read 6126 times)

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terry paget

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I note all steering boxes on e-bay have drop links attached. It seems sensible to ignore Haynes and disconnect drop arm from central track rod, then on reassembly alignment should be easy - pop drop arm hole on central track rod pin, set wheels straight ahead, set steering wheel central.

Any comments?
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Andy H

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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #1 on: 25 November 2017, 22:30:54 »

Good luck with getting the steering arm off the shaft of the steering box.

Separating the ball joint from the steering arm should be easy in comparison.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #2 on: 25 November 2017, 22:44:58 »

Good luck with getting the steering arm off the shaft of the steering box.

Separating the ball joint from the steering arm should be easy in comparison.
Indeed. And I would have to do it on both old, and replacement, steering boxes.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #3 on: 25 November 2017, 23:05:25 »

Good luck with getting the steering arm off the shaft of the steering box.

Separating the ball joint from the steering arm should be easy in comparison.
Indeed. And I would have to do it on both old, and replacement, steering boxes.


That is a job that is best done with a puller. A big one. Especially if the box isn't on the car.
But steering boxes don't wear out until they've done more miles than most(pretty much all) of our cars are likely to manage.


And I would expect the steering drop arm to have a master spline so it only fits in one place on the box.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #4 on: 26 November 2017, 14:38:49 »

Good luck with getting the steering arm off the shaft of the steering box.

Separating the ball joint from the steering arm should be easy in comparison.
Indeed. And I would have to do it on both old, and replacement, steering boxes.


That is a job that is best done with a puller. A big one. Especially if the box isn't on the car.
But steering boxes don't wear out until they've done more miles than most(pretty much all) of our cars are likely to manage.


And I would expect the steering drop arm to have a master spline so it only fits in one place on the box.
The replacement box, ordered Friday morning, arrived Saturday midday. There is indeed a master spline, so that settles the alignment problem. It may still be simpler to remove the old box with drop arm attached, and replace new box with arm attached. Any thoughts?
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #5 on: 26 November 2017, 16:02:20 »

Did the replacement box arrive with an arm attached?

If it did then you are good to go. If not then you are going to need a hoofing great hydraulic puller to get the arm off your old box.
« Last Edit: 26 November 2017, 16:05:54 by Andy H »
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #6 on: 26 November 2017, 16:15:13 »

Hi Terry, I can’t help on the topic as I’ve never done one.

However looking up at its location it looks like a sod to do  :-\

How come you’re changing it out of interest?

Hijack over, please continue.... 😁😁😁
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #7 on: 26 November 2017, 17:48:20 »

Did the replacement box arrive with an arm attached?

If it did then you are good to go. If not then you are going to need a hoofing great hydraulic puller to get the arm off your old box.
Yes, there are a dozen on e-bay, all with drop arms attached. So they come off all right with drop arms attached, and I presume they will go back on with drop arms attached. Haynes describes how to change a steering box.
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terry paget

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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #8 on: 26 November 2017, 18:04:27 »

Hi Terry, I can’t help on the topic as I’ve never done one.

However looking up at its location it looks like a sod to do  :-\

How come you’re changing it out of interest?

Hijack over, please continue.... 😁😁😁
Because the steering doesn't feel right, wanders, unlike any other Omega I have ever owned. The car ( a 2001 2.5 manual estate) is otherwise in excellent condition, with very little rust. I have changed wishbones, track rods and drop links, and achieved nothing. Now I suspect the steering box.

Reading the Haynes guide, job sounds tricky, and there is no forum guide. It will have to serve a bit longer, though, because son Dan rang today and wants to borrow a car until Christmas.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #9 on: 26 November 2017, 18:07:18 »

Hi Terry, I can’t help on the topic as I’ve never done one.

However looking up at its location it looks like a sod to do  :-\

How come you’re changing it out of interest?

Hijack over, please continue.... 😁😁😁
Because the steering doesn't feel right, wanders, unlike any other Omega I have ever owned. The car ( a 2001 2.5 manual estate) is otherwise in excellent condition, with very little rust. I have changed wishbones, track rods and drop links, and achieved nothing. Now I suspect the steering box.

Reading the Haynes guide, job sounds tricky, and there is no forum guide. It will have to serve a bit longer, though, because son Dan rang today and wants to borrow a car until Christmas.

You have adjusted the slack out of the box I assume?
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terry paget

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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #10 on: 26 November 2017, 19:29:41 »

Hi Terry, I can’t help on the topic as I’ve never done one.

However looking up at its location it looks like a sod to do  :-\

How come you’re changing it out of interest?

Hijack over, please continue.... 😁😁😁
Because the steering doesn't feel right, wanders, unlike any other Omega I have ever owned. The car ( a 2001 2.5 manual estate) is otherwise in excellent condition, with very little rust. I have changed wishbones, track rods and drop links, and achieved nothing. Now I suspect the steering box.

Reading the Haynes guide, job sounds tricky, and there is no forum guide. It will have to serve a bit longer, though, because son Dan rang today and wants to borrow a car until Christmas.

You have adjusted the slack out of the box I assume?
No. This was discussed in a recent thread http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=140482.0 and as free movement was only 70mm I was discouraged from adjusting it lest I make the car undriveable.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #11 on: 26 November 2017, 20:01:09 »

Hi Terry, I can’t help on the topic as I’ve never done one.

However looking up at its location it looks like a sod to do  :-\

How come you’re changing it out of interest?

Hijack over, please continue.... 😁😁😁
Because the steering doesn't feel right, wanders, unlike any other Omega I have ever owned. The car ( a 2001 2.5 manual estate) is otherwise in excellent condition, with very little rust. I have changed wishbones, track rods and drop links, and achieved nothing. Now I suspect the steering box.

Reading the Haynes guide, job sounds tricky, and there is no forum guide. It will have to serve a bit longer, though, because son Dan rang today and wants to borrow a car until Christmas.

XJAT wandered all over the road when I first bought it, to the point where it was genuinely worrying. It was what led me to this forum, and to the first full geometric alignment I had done, which as I recall basically showed all 4 wheels pointing in different directions. Before embarking on a nasty job I'd be inclined to have the settings checked again. I remember the front springs were getting pretty tired 40K miles ago so unless you've replaced them I wonder if they are now no longer serviceable and are too soft to control the front end of the car properly.

Current Omega tended to wander a bit too. Again full geomtric alignment helped then full Eibach -30s and it is rock steady.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #12 on: 26 November 2017, 20:10:02 »

Hi Terry, I can’t help on the topic as I’ve never done one.

However looking up at its location it looks like a sod to do  :-\

How come you’re changing it out of interest?

Hijack over, please continue.... 😁😁😁
Because the steering doesn't feel right, wanders, unlike any other Omega I have ever owned. The car ( a 2001 2.5 manual estate) is otherwise in excellent condition, with very little rust. I have changed wishbones, track rods and drop links, and achieved nothing. Now I suspect the steering box.

Reading the Haynes guide, job sounds tricky, and there is no forum guide. It will have to serve a bit longer, though, because son Dan rang today and wants to borrow a car until Christmas.

XJAT wandered all over the road when I first bought it, to the point where it was genuinely worrying. It was what led me to this forum, and to the first full geometric alignment I had done, which as I recall basically showed all 4 wheels pointing in different directions. Before embarking on a nasty job I'd be inclined to have the settings checked again. I remember the front springs were getting pretty tired 40K miles ago so unless you've replaced them I wonder if they are now no longer serviceable and are too soft to control the front end of the car properly.

Current Omega tended to wander a bit too. Again full geomtric alignment helped then full Eibach -30s and it is rock steady.

Exactly what I was thinking tbh.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #13 on: 26 November 2017, 22:02:44 »

Hi Terry, I can’t help on the topic as I’ve never done one.

However looking up at its location it looks like a sod to do  :-\

How come you’re changing it out of interest?

Hijack over, please continue.... 😁😁😁
Because the steering doesn't feel right, wanders, unlike any other Omega I have ever owned. The car ( a 2001 2.5 manual estate) is otherwise in excellent condition, with very little rust. I have changed wishbones, track rods and drop links, and achieved nothing. Now I suspect the steering box.

Reading the Haynes guide, job sounds tricky, and there is no forum guide. It will have to serve a bit longer, though, because son Dan rang today and wants to borrow a car until Christmas.

XJAT wandered all over the road when I first bought it, to the point where it was genuinely worrying. It was what led me to this forum, and to the first full geometric alignment I had done, which as I recall basically showed all 4 wheels pointing in different directions. Before embarking on a nasty job I'd be inclined to have the settings checked again. I remember the front springs were getting pretty tired 40K miles ago so unless you've replaced them I wonder if they are now no longer serviceable and are too soft to control the front end of the car properly.

Current Omega tended to wander a bit too. Again full geomtric alignment helped then full Eibach -30s and it is rock steady.
Thanks for that information ajsphead. I did not know the car had a history of wandering. I have your 8/7/2012 Fcm Wheel Alignment report in front of me. They reset front camber a bit, front toe in not at all, and rear camber and toe not at all. Since then I have changed wishbones, track rods and drop links twice, resetting toe in by setting front rears parallel to rear wheels and camber with a camber gauge, wheels supported under wishbones. Not ideal I admit, but it works fine on all my other Omegas. It always romps throught MOT tests. I can find no signs of broken chassis, loose back end, etc. I have not changed the front springs, but they ain't broken. The tyres are 'budget', as on all my Omegas, but no other cars wander.

The car is not the joy to drive that my other Omegas are, so I want to correct the wandery steering. I could have a full alignment set up; I could fit new tyres; I could fit new springs; I could change the steering box. I have taken advice from this forum. As said before, I thought new wishbones and track rods would cure things - they did not. I changed the central track rod, that did not cure it either.

To be more specific, cornering steering wheel effort is more than on other Omegas, and on braking to a standstill steering pulls to the left.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #14 on: 26 November 2017, 22:31:36 »

The steering box is the last place I would be looking.
Has it had new struts, strut tops and bearings yet? That's NEW, not used-up bits from your stash.
Then a proper alignment, as it does make a big difference.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #15 on: 26 November 2017, 22:59:10 »

The steering box is the last place I would be looking.
Has it had new struts, strut tops and bearings yet? That's NEW, not used-up bits from your stash.
Then a proper alignment, as it does make a big difference.
No, I have not changed front struts, nor did the previous owner. Until today I never considered front struts as being the problem. Short of replacement with new, is there any way I could test them?
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #16 on: 26 November 2017, 23:10:13 »

Given that they support the full weight of the front of the car, I would suggest that the proof of the pudding is in the eating... Assuming the brakes aren't binding, then changing the struts, ie front shocks and top mounts, and report back...

I would politely suggest that a proper alignment would improve matters without changing anything else... Renewing the suspension and a proper alignment will make it a completely different car :y

My current car rides OK, and drives well enough to get me around without crashing, but it handles like a drunk spaniel on tiles :o so in due course, ie the week before the MoT, I intend to replace springs/shocks/wishbones/diffmounts/donuts and track rods. I expect this to cost something in the order of £750 but I know that the car will then drive, and handle like new :y
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #17 on: 27 November 2017, 07:34:15 »

Just as a general point it's worth remembering the just because the struts/dampers aren't leaking doesn't mean they aren't knackered. Changed the rears on mine last month and I think my granny (if she was still alive) could pump the old ones in and out.
Also worth remembering that rubbish tyres can make a car wander too. Inherited cheap "chinese" things on so many cars I have bought and had an instant improvement when anything from a reasonable midrange tyre upwards has gone on instead. I have found the Omega particularly sensitive in this way.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #18 on: 27 November 2017, 07:52:23 »

The steering box is the last place I would be looking.
Has it had new struts, strut tops and bearings yet? That's NEW, not used-up bits from your stash.
Then a proper alignment, as it does make a big difference.

This. Steering boxes are pretty robust. Clearly there’s play somewhere to have so much movement so start with simple stuff :y
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #19 on: 27 November 2017, 09:29:17 »

Gentlemen, I thank you all for your wisdom and advice. I am now in no hurry to change the steering box. I am startled to learn that this car has a history of wandering steering, which a full alignment did not rectify in 2012. The feel is indeed of something moving in the steering/running gear. Soft front wishbone rubbers can cause a similar sympton.

This car has a fault like no other Omega I have ever owned. It has clearly been there a long while. My stepfather-in-law had a similar problem on a Ford Escort which no garage could cure, occasional loss of power until engine stopped. He would get out, look around, ring the AA, have a cigarette or two, AA would turn up, engine would start, and run well. He eventually scrapped the car. Carburettor icing, I suggested.

I had a Citroen CX 2.4 family estate with a similar fault. It would start cold, it would immediately restart hot, but after 10 minutes it would not restart without a minute cranking the thing. On the Isle of Wight ferry it was a nightmare.

Knowing my luck, replacing every suspension and steering component with new might cure it, and if it did a rear shocker turret would fail and write the car off, or my daughter would crash it. I currently own older Omegas, and Omegas wiith higher mileages, but they are OK. This one is wierd.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #20 on: 27 November 2017, 17:46:55 »

I feel your pain TP.  As long timers here will know, TBE is very highly strung when it comes to handling, as is ultra sensitive to anything, even NSF being 2 PSI down (I run at 34 at front, so 32 PSI is "correct")
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #21 on: 29 November 2017, 08:16:23 »

I feel your pain TP.  As long timers here will know, TBE is very highly strung when it comes to handling, as is ultra sensitive to anything, even NSF being 2 PSI down (I run at 34 at front, so 32 PSI is "correct")
Thanks for your thought, TB. I have read before on this forum of rogue Omegas, with unusual  and worrying steering/handling characteristics. I hzve learned that XJAT is such a car. The previous owner knew, but never cured it, despite 4 wheel alignment and other expenditure. Forum advice is change all the steering and suspension components for new, fit 4 new decent tyres, and let WIM Chesham do a full wheel realignment. That would cost about £1000. There is a 2002 manual 2.6 CDX Omega estate on e-bay at £590 today, a similar car sold for £460 last week..
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #22 on: 29 November 2017, 13:43:47 »

..... That would cost about £1000. There is a 2002 manual 2.6 CDX Omega estate on e-bay at £590 today, a similar car sold for £460 last week..

But what do you get mechanically?

Unfortunately Omegas are now of a value where it is either Bangernomics or an enthusiast who is willing to spend more than it’s worth. Not saying either camp is right or wrong but.... :-X ::)
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #23 on: 29 November 2017, 14:22:40 »

Both of those cars will either need suspension work done or bodywork, or both... same goes for pretty much every used car for sale...

It could be argued that a cambelt, service, discs/pads and a set of tyres would cost more than a cheap Omega... ::)

Only you can make the decision... if the car is otherwise sound and presentable then it is probably worth spending on. But, if it has accident history causing the issue, then no amount of suspension work will solve anything :-\

Having scrapped a mk2 Granada for £50 of welding and spend £££ keeping a thrice written off plod Omega estate on the road long after most would have given up, the only advice I can give is this:

 Any sub £500 car should last until the next MoT... Any sub £1,000 car should be capable of passing the next MoT.

Taking my current Omega as an example... '52 manual 2.2 Gls estate with 102k. Bought for £350 in October, Mot until April. The bodywork is rough, rear arches and tailgate starting, all four doors are dinked and rusting at bottom. So far I have spent £500 on it: new tyres, cambelt, service items, thermostat and rear pads... of which, only the tyres have been fitted (rest is a job for this weekend.) It is showing various codes including both cam and crank sensors and the suspension leaves alot to be desired and will likely cost it the MoT.

I could not spend another penny on it, and save the money instead, or I could collect the parts ready for sorting the suspension in time for the MoT... I haven't actually decided yet, and all the while it gets me to and from work, I won't worry too much. Point is that there is no right or wrong answer.  ;)

In your shoes, with that car, I would suggest making sure that the track rods are all free, and take it to a decent alignment place such as WIM or a local independent Porsche specialist (I have had good results from one locally once the revulsion of having an Omega on their ramp wore off ::)) and get it set up 100% using the previously published settings. If that improves it, then consider renewing components to bring it back to new. If it doesn't, then run it to the MoT and break it as there's clearly something fundamentally wrong with the chassis...
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #24 on: 29 November 2017, 19:19:34 »

I feel your pain TP.  As long timers here will know, TBE is very highly strung when it comes to handling, as is ultra sensitive to anything, even NSF being 2 PSI down (I run at 34 at front, so 32 PSI is "correct")
Thanks for your thought, TB. I have read before on this forum of rogue Omegas, with unusual  and worrying steering/handling characteristics. I hzve learned that XJAT is such a car. The previous owner knew, but never cured it, despite 4 wheel alignment and other expenditure. Forum advice is change all the steering and suspension components for new, fit 4 new decent tyres, and let WIM Chesham do a full wheel realignment. That would cost about £1000. There is a 2002 manual 2.6 CDX Omega estate on e-bay at £590 today, a similar car sold for £460 last week..
Sorry Terry, I didn't make myself clear, the 4 wheel alignment did sort out the wandering, hence why I directed my thinking towards dead springs and dampers.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #25 on: 29 November 2017, 21:03:54 »

Thanks for your thoughts, gentlemen. It's not the end of the world, just that as this car is rust free I thought I would get it tip top and enjoy it. It's still driveable, and has done 177,000 miles without being crashed. I agree it sounds like a chassis fault, but I cannot find one, nor could any MOT tester. It's a mystery.

I have been running Senators, Carltons and Omegas for 20 years, fleet growing from 4 Senators to 6 Omegas as the family grew. They have all seemed very tolerant of settings and tyres, all drove, steered and handled  well, the chassis sound and needing little attention.

 XJAT came with a pre-MOT declaring it needed new wishbones and track rods, but that was all. For £302 that was a bargain. Apart from tyres, that is all it needed thereafter. Looks like new, no rust.

In contrast, VKOV, a pfl 2000 2.5 manual CDX estate, bought 2 years later, cost £257, and promptly needed a new exhaust,  clutch slave cylinder and rear doors; now drives, handles and steers beautifully, ny favourie car, though tatty.
 
Such are the joys of running 16 year old cars.

Sorry I misunderstood, ajsphead. Since, apart from right toe (12', not 10'), car was within spec on submission, and little was changed, I presumed the re-alignment did not improve matters.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #26 on: 29 November 2017, 21:22:02 »

I got a new MOT on the project MV6 last week (it used to be Mr Rog's)

The MOT lists advisories on the wishbone bushes and the rear doughnuts

Code: [Select]
Nearside Rear Sub-frame rubber bush deteriorated but not resulting in excessive movement front bush (2.4.G.2)
Offside Rear Sub-frame rubber bush deteriorated but not resulting in excessive movement front bush (2.4.G.2)
Nearside Front Lower Suspension arm rubber bush deteriorated but not resulting in excessive movement both inner bushes (2.4.G.2)
Offside Front Lower Suspension arm rubber bush deteriorated but not resulting in excessive movement both inner bushes (2.4.G.2)

It is really difficult to check the bushes on an Omega by prodding and poking. Mine has an MOT but I know the bushes are shagged and the steering is horrible as a consequence.

If it was my car I would change the bushes and check that the subframe bolts are all present and torqued up correctly....
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TheBoy

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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #27 on: 29 November 2017, 21:29:13 »

They have all seemed very tolerant of settings and tyres
I have found quite the opposite ;D. They seem ultra sensitive to wheel balancing, ultra sensitive to thrust angle, ultra sensitive to camber differences (and sensitive from tyre wear to camber), and good grief, man, don't get me started on the tyre sensitivity of the bloody things ;D


However, when you have it sorted, its a lovely car to both drive and be a passenger in. And cheap, and reliable, and well worth the effort :)


I think we are all sensitive to different quirks of the Omega. I was chatting to that Gixer fella the other day about similar, and nobody is as sensitive to tramlining as he is - something, that while it annoys me, I'm clearly less sensitive to.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #28 on: 29 November 2017, 21:34:15 »

Something has puzzled me for years - I have never heard or read of anyone changing the bushes on the rear suspension arms.

Presumably the bushes must fail eventually :-\
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #29 on: 27 December 2017, 18:37:35 »

The steering pulls left on stopping, though not at speed. Steering wheel effort on turning varies unevenly. It's hard to imagine how the steering box could cause that, though I do not understand how the variomatic system works.
I have changed tyres and wishbones to little effect. I have set up camber and front wheel alignment myself, not precisely, but well enough for all my other Omegas to drive normally. There is no sign of accident damage, no has any MOT picked up anything amiss.
As suggested by others, I now suspect McPherson strut top bearings. Any comments?
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #30 on: 27 December 2017, 19:26:24 »

If the pull is only during braking then perhaps a calliper is hanging up?
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #31 on: 27 December 2017, 19:47:58 »

If the pull is only during braking then perhaps a calliper is hanging up?
.Thanks, but it's not only during braking.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #32 on: 27 December 2017, 19:52:13 »

For once and for all, get it set up properly.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #33 on: 28 December 2017, 14:30:06 »

For once and for all, get it set up properly.
Thanks for excellent advice, Doc. It's just that  having changed steering components on so many other Omegas, and aligned things by my rough and ready method with complete success, it's hard to imagine why this particular car should respond in this ungrateful way. It's further puzzling because this car was professionally set up when owned by member ajsphead by an outfit in Netham Road, Bristol, who found little wrong with it, yet ajsphead found it much improved.Their print out follows.

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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #35 on: 28 December 2017, 14:54:13 »

Terry, I'm no geometry expert. So I can only tell you what I've seen....

I adjusted front camber on my omega a year and half ago. I adjusted front toe and it was spot on as per WIM settings. It drove beautifully.

A few weeks back I adjusted front toe on my omega following tre replacement. I noticed the camber had moved but was still green. Suspension wear I assume.

Had it back on a week later as my steering wheel was slightly off and it annoyed me. Camber was well out.

I'm just waiting for my rear track rods and then I'll do the lot in one go.

My point being that these angles must change constantly. As with my steering wheel it's not unfeasable that it needs doing again.

Only my opinion of course 👍👍👍
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #36 on: 28 December 2017, 16:57:07 »

The angles will change as you bounce along, but they should return to original settings when car is returned to set up position. One should set camber first, then front toe-in. The fineness and ease of toe-in adjustment, compared with the crudeness and difficulty of camber adjustment, suggests that toe-in is the most critical; it's all my tyre shops do.
My rough and ready method of wheel alignment does set the steering wheel central with wheels pointing straight ahead, and is done with front suspension loaded and wheels off the ground. I suppose I should seat 2 average persons in the front seats when setting things up, but I don't bother.

Doc Gollum told me some while ago that Wheels in Motion, Chesham, set wheel alignment with the suspension hanging down unloaded, using special settings. This could work, but does not sound ideal.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #37 on: 28 December 2017, 17:08:55 »

Interesting that you think camber adjustment is crude and difficult! It's considerably easier to adjust it accurately(to within a couple of minutes) using ghetto equipment, unlike the toe which needs each side to be referenced to both the centre line of the car and the rear axle line to actually be worth adjusting. Unfortunately, many people don't do this; that the traditional Dunlop tracking gauges don't allow for it is a good example.


The current crop of alignment machines real benefit is speed; the real time display of what changes when adjusters are turned is what you're paying for. While it is possible to do a complete alignment using minimal equipment, it is so time consuming and fiddly that getting it close(about 15minutes work) and paying £50 to have it completed accurately is a no brainer.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #38 on: 28 December 2017, 17:58:36 »

The other critical item, which is the foundation of the entire set up, is that the pitman arm, and therefore steering box, is dead straight before anything else is done. The arm centreline needs to be exactly parallel to the chassis rail.

It is assumed that this is the case when the steering wheel is level and the front wheels pointing roughly ahead. The reality can be very different.

Equally,  the idler arm should be of identical length to the pitman arm... again, this is assumed, but you should measure them both centre to centre to be sure.

I still maintain that a decent set up can make a worn out dog drive noticeably better... fitting new components together with a decent set up makes this improvement even more marked.

If it's worth doing... ;)
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #39 on: 28 December 2017, 20:44:31 »

The other critical item, which is the foundation of the entire set up, is that the pitman arm, and therefore steering box, is dead straight before anything else is done. The arm centreline needs to be exactly parallel to the chassis rail.

It is assumed that this is the case when the steering wheel is level and the front wheels pointing roughly ahead. The reality can be very different.

Equally,  the idler arm should be of identical length to the pitman arm... again, this is assumed, but you should measure them both centre to centre to be sure.

I still maintain that a decent set up can make a worn out dog drive noticeably better... fitting new components together with a decent set up makes this improvement even more marked.

If it's worth doing... ;)
Fasciniating. I am sure when the car left the factory, with a master spline on steering box output shaft, pitman arm was set parallel to centre line, steering wheel was put on straight, and track rods were adjusted to align wheels parallel to centre line - perfect steering. But what if a tyre shop adjusts toe-in after a track rod change, using only one TR adjuster, customer complains steering wheel is now not central, so tyre shop removes steering wheel and puts it back central. Now on straight ahead pitman arm is not straight. Furthermore (I imagine), the variomatic steering centres on straight pitman arm, which is now not wheels straight ahead. Do I have a car like that?
I presume pitman arm and idler arm the same length - they are mass produced.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #40 on: 28 December 2017, 21:04:59 »

Last point first...

Omega A arms fit, but are different lengths depending on power steering or not. 110 mm vs 112 mm rings a bell.

Ignore the servotronic steering... it simply controls a valve making the steering heavier above a certain speed by controlling the fluid pressure through the box... effectively it turns the power steering off at speed. This is why the four cylinder cars feel a touch heavier around town... servotronic compensates for the extra weight of the six cylinder cars (petrol and diesel).

It did. Your tyre shop trackrod end analogy is a pretty straightforward example of what could happen. By virtue of how they work, even a brand new worm drive has some slop as you reverse direction... on the Omega this is demonstrated by the dead spot straight ahead. Skew the dead spot a quarter turn one way, and the behaviour of the steering box, its feel and perceived direction versus input, becomes markedly different as the geometry is completely off from where it should be.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #41 on: 28 December 2017, 22:32:31 »

Last point first...

Omega A arms fit, but are different lengths depending on power steering or not. 110 mm vs 112 mm rings a bell.

Ignore the servotronic steering... it simply controls a valve making the steering heavier above a certain speed by controlling the fluid pressure through the box... effectively it turns the power steering off at speed. This is why the four cylinder cars feel a touch heavier around town... servotronic compensates for the extra weight of the six cylinder cars (petrol and diesel).

It did. Your tyre shop trackrod end analogy is a pretty straightforward example of what could happen. By virtue of how they work, even a brand new worm drive has some slop as you reverse direction... on the Omega this is demonstrated by the dead spot straight ahead. Skew the dead spot a quarter turn one way, and the behaviour of the steering box, its feel and perceived direction versus input, becomes markedly different as the geometry is completely off from where it should be.
Thank you. This might solve my problem. I must do some tests. Will report back with photographs.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #42 on: 29 December 2017, 00:01:47 »

If my memory is correct............Omega doesn't have a splined steering column, so you cant just remove the steering whel and put it back on the next spline to centre it.  ;)
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #43 on: 29 December 2017, 02:07:26 »

If my memory is correct............Omega doesn't have a splined steering column, so you cant just remove the steering whel and put it back on the next spline to centre it.  ;)
It does and you can ;)
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #44 on: 29 December 2017, 11:24:35 »

If you want to adjust the steering box and take out any slack there is a method in the Haynes manual for the Carltons and Senators, if you want I can scan them in and e-mail the pdf to you so you can have a look, they are basically the same recirculating ball type steering box.

As others have said though I would start with the front suspension top mounts, poly bushing the front bush on the wishbones and a full geometry alignment.

I found my MV6 to wander quite a bit until I poly bushed the front bush in the wishbones.
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #45 on: 30 December 2017, 05:21:16 »

The angles will change as you bounce along, but they should return to original settings when car is returned to set up position. One should set camber first, then front toe-in. The fineness and ease of toe-in adjustment, compared with the crudeness and difficulty of camber adjustment, suggests that toe-in is the most critical; it's all my tyre shops do.
My rough and ready method of wheel alignment does set the steering wheel central with wheels pointing straight ahead, and is done with front suspension loaded and wheels off the ground. I suppose I should seat 2 average persons in the front seats when setting things up, but I don't bother.

Doc Gollum told me some while ago that Wheels in Motion, Chesham, set wheel alignment with the suspension hanging down unloaded, using special settings. This could work, but does not sound ideal.

Not strictly true... because their system is permanently connected to the car from initial setup, the readings are taken with the weight on the wheels. If an adjustment is needed then AS THE CAR IS RAISED, the computer still "knows" all the original positions, and all adjustments are "relative" to the original settings. When all adjustments are completed the weight is put back on the wheels and a final check made. If done correctly they will be spot on. All "hunter" machines work the same way, so providing the operator knows what they are doing it works every time, trouble is... not all operators do ...  :(
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Re: Changing steering box; remove drop arm or disconnect from track rod?
« Reply #46 on: 30 December 2017, 12:23:29 »

As I feared, the Pitman link looks parallel to the bulkhead when Steering wheel is centred and wheels are set straight ahead.

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