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Author Topic: Brake pedal travel  (Read 4858 times)

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BazaJT

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Brake pedal travel
« on: 09 December 2017, 08:04:01 »

As I've stated elsewhere the brake pedal seems to get a lot closer to the floor than I'd like and it's not just me,a mate drove it a short distance the other day and his comment was"How dare you drive that? I didn't think it was going to stop!"2yrs ago I had a front to rear brake pipe replaced but since then the car has been largely stood unused and I can't remember whether the pedal travel was long at that time.Could air be trapped in the ABS block[the pedal doesn't pump up like when air is in the system]if so how do I get it out?A second option is[I'm guessing here]master cylinder or its seals?Are seal kits available to refurb these?A suggestion I've had is that one or more of the brake pads are stuck and that the free ones are acting on the discs and "bending"the disc onto the stuck ones.How likely/possible is this?Over the Xmas period if it's not too freezy cold I'm intending to check/clean up the calipers to make sure all is free to move as it should.The car passed the M.o.T. with this "long" pedal travel.Any thoughts on this issue welcome.
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Diamond Black Geezer

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #1 on: 09 December 2017, 09:18:46 »

Hey Baza, hows things?

From one bloke who resurrected a long-standing Omega to another... before her first mot I had the brakes apart, as it was a good time to do it, I thought. That included stripping all calipers apart, ensuring plenty of coppergrease where required, new pads of course. The fronts got new seals, and I sourced good low mileage slider pins.
Finally most, if not all the fluid was bled out and changed. (I recently tested it for moisture and it came out at 2%, iirc, which may suggest next year its worth changing it again)

I was able to compare in the same week my old FL with 140k, and my PFL V6, and noticed a slight but noticeable improvement. The PFL have more 'bite' and the pedal felt firmer. Remember FL brakes are technically superior, so this was a pleasant surprise. 

Thats what I did, and would recommend it to anyone. Of course there could be an issue with your servo, vacuum,  or master cylinder, but nevertheless free and easy moving pistons/calipers, and known solid brake fluid with no bubbles or contamination makes a real difference.

I'll text you a number of a guy who may have some bits, not far from you, should you need anything if you like  :y

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #2 on: 09 December 2017, 09:52:31 »

I currently run 6 Omegas, and have owned many more. They all vary in pedal travel before 'bite'. I have known rear cylinders seize, never front ones; pedql travel was not affected. I change the brake fluid every 2 years, no change, so cause is not air in the system. My theory is wear in the master cylinder. I kept a spare off a car I scrapped, but have not yet bothered to fit it.

I find Omega brakes are excellent, as good as on any other car I have owned. My current brake niggle is my daughter's 2.6, she complains, brakes lack initial bite. I have driven it, and I can detect it. I have changed the pads, no change. Both front pistons move freely. Pedal travel is quite short. It might be the servo, or something else. At the moment she is driving the 3.2, while I MOT her 2.6. I await her report when she swops cars back again.

Shucks, all these cars are 17 tears old, it's a miracle they still go at all. My main brake challenge is the handbrake. The ingenious 'scissors' lever arrangement eventually gets stuck solid, then the handbrake still works, but without a mighty pull will not hold the car on a steep hill. The cure is to strip it down and free it, quite a big job, but rewarding.
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BazaJT

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #3 on: 09 December 2017, 18:13:09 »

Hi DBG long time no hear!Yes that number would be good and might come in handy ta. Anyway back on topic,the other front to rear pipe was changed for this years M.o.T.as were the two front brake pipes that go through the inner wing and one at the rear.Obviously they were then bled up,so I'd imagine most if not all the brake fluid will be fresh.Also with the ignition off standing on the brake pedal gives a firm feel and holds well with no sinkage until the engine is started when the pedal travels nearer the floor,so I'm assuming the servo is acting correctly?Anyway hopefully[ without a brilliant insight before then]Xmas eve/day/boxing day may reveal more.The car does stop-at least from 30-35m.p.h speeds-in a straight line and holds still while in "D" in traffic without any further travel on the pedal.
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cam.in.head

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #4 on: 09 December 2017, 19:36:13 »

to confirm a caliper or front or rear etc you can clamp off a hose and see if that makes any difference to pedal travel. ideally and in theory if you clamped off all 4 flexi hoses you should have a nice solid pedal.eliminating any air or other issues with the master cyl and abs unit.then if you re introduce the other circuits one at a time you should see a small increase in pedal travel per item. rear calipers are known for seizing pistons or pads getting stuck and fronts are known to get stuck slider pins which does have an impact on pedal travel.
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Diamond Black Geezer

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #5 on: 09 December 2017, 22:44:46 »

What he said.  :)

And yes, rears more prone to issue, the pistons usually spend most of their working life 'out' of the cylinder. Ie you spend longer with worn pads than new ones, and on that vein, of course traditionally fitting new pads means pushing the old, crusty pistons with poor surface back into the caliper, also causing sticking. The gaters/boots are , meant to prevent this but these rubbers frequently turn to brittle plastic over time and cease their corrosion inhibiting. (But you know all this, im teaching you to suck eggs)

Very much like the idea of clamping off calipers to isolate the issue - though maybe not in this weather, yeh?  ;)
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BazaJT

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #6 on: 10 December 2017, 12:00:49 »

That is indeed a handy tip  :) Such tips just one of the many great things about this forum :y
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cam.in.head

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #7 on: 10 December 2017, 16:12:36 »

Idealy use hose clamps made for the job or i use mole grips with a socket slid on each leg to prevent any damage.
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BazaJT

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #8 on: 10 December 2017, 18:02:55 »

I knew not to use mole grips or the like for clamping pipes,but I'd never thought of using sockets over the jaws to make them useable,another top tip to remember :y
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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #9 on: 11 December 2017, 13:21:26 »

I'd be tempted to dump the old fluid then fill with new stuff and bleed before anything else  :y
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #10 on: 11 December 2017, 14:46:33 »

The classic cause is the pads seizing in the rear callipers, pop the pads out and clean up, its worth changing the fluid whilst in there to.
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Diamond Black Geezer

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #11 on: 11 December 2017, 15:13:21 »

Also just to add to my earlier - you can easily get replacement seals, gators and even whole pistons, should you need.
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BazaJT

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #12 on: 11 December 2017, 19:55:24 »

Would not most if not all the old fluid have been flushed when the 2 front pipes,1rear pipe and 1 front to rear pipe[and the brakes bled]were changed?I think I'll pull the pads[starting with the rears] have a clean up etc. and see what if any difference that makes,does this sound a reasonable way forward?
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #13 on: 12 December 2017, 09:23:04 »

Would not most if not all the old fluid have been flushed when the 2 front pipes,1rear pipe and 1 front to rear pipe[and the brakes bled]were changed?I think I'll pull the pads[starting with the rears] have a clean up etc. and see what if any difference that makes,does this sound a reasonable way forward?

It would be my first approach and yes, the fluid should have been changed when the pipes were changed.

I would however, when checking the pads/callipers, push the calliper pistons fully in with the bleed nipple open to flush the fluid from the calliper bores (I bet its black and horrible)
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BazaJT

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #14 on: 12 December 2017, 18:58:03 »

Sorry if I'm being a bit thick here[basically because I am thick ;D]So I open bleed nipple,press piston back into caliper and then close bleed nipple,then press brake pedal to refill caliper and top up reservoir as needed yes? No need to bleed afterwards?
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cam.in.head

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #15 on: 12 December 2017, 19:15:02 »

you may need to bleed afterwards if you do it that way it depends on if you close the nipple when the piston stops going in.not just afterwards because due to the flexibility of the seal it can move forward again a little bit and draw in some air.no harm in doing a final bleed on each wheel anyway as to be sure. i use an old fridge compressor to suck the fluid through rather than pedal pumping or pressure cap method but thats just my way.
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grifter

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #16 on: 13 December 2017, 07:27:10 »

What he said.  :)

And yes, rears more prone to issue, the pistons usually spend most of their working life 'out' of the cylinder. Ie you spend longer with worn pads than new ones, and on that vein, of course traditionally fitting new pads means pushing the old, crusty pistons with poor surface back into the caliper, also causing sticking. The gaters/boots are , meant to prevent this but these rubbers frequently turn to brittle plastic over time and cease their corrosion inhibiting. (But you know all this, im teaching you to suck eggs)

Very much like the idea of clamping off calipers to isolate the issue - though maybe not in this weather, yeh?  ;)

Every now and again i take rear wheels off, push pistons in and then pump pedal a couple of times to keep them free. Do this especially if car rarely used. Can be done in situ if you have big pump pliers to catch edge of piston. You"ll usually get one or two that is partially seized.
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BazaJT

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #17 on: 13 December 2017, 07:49:05 »

Yes I do have pump pliers,I'm hoping to leave the calipers in place and do it that way however I'll have to see how it goes and play it by ear a bit on that.Failing that I've got[a recently purchased]wind back tool and can dismount the caliper and use that.At least  I know after the recent M.o.T. repairs that all the bleed nipples aren't seized in place :y
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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #18 on: 13 December 2017, 08:09:18 »

The best approach is to open bleed nipple and fully retract the piston, then close the bleed nipple. You may want to just then do a single peddle brake bleed to make sure that no air remains.

This was you know you have all the old fluid out the clipper (which does not happen on a standard brake fluid change) and all the air out to. :y
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cam.in.head

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #19 on: 13 December 2017, 11:01:25 »

this actually makes a lot of sense re getting all the old fluid out.i suppose if you just do a fluid flush the normal way old fluid could still be kept in the lower half of the caliper.from now on i will be fully retracting my pistons,maybee even remove caliper entirely and empty out upside down to be sure althout this may be overkill but at least you would know 99% of the old fluid is out.especially on a newly aquired or unknown history car.then keep up with two year fluid refresh should keep everything in order.this and regular maintenance re stuck pads,pistons and slider pins.its worth noting here also that a caliper with TWO stuck pads or pistons could actually have LESS pedal travel than a perfectly functioning one.also the anti squeal shims if not perfectly flat can sometimes also affect pedal travel too.
last year when i replaced two front calipers with new ones on my cav the pedal travel did indeed increase .albeit a small amount.confirmed by clamping front hoses off.thay were working correctly and retracting a small amount to give a running clearance.althout pedal travel was increased the feel and progressivness of braking was much improved and stable
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terry paget

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #20 on: 17 December 2017, 12:05:12 »

Would it not be a good idea, before the 2 yearly brake fluid change, to put in some worn out brake pads in the rear brakes, force out the pistons hydraulically, and clean them up with steel wool?
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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #21 on: 17 December 2017, 12:30:36 »

Sounds sensible to me.  :y
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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #22 on: 17 December 2017, 12:45:18 »

Would it not be a good idea, before the 2 yearly brake fluid change, to put in some worn out brake pads in the rear brakes, force out the pistons hydraulically, and clean them up with steel wool?


if you're going to bleed the brakes anyway, pop them right out and clean them completely. Although I'd use scotchbrite rather than steel wool
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BazaJT

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #23 on: 17 December 2017, 18:17:21 »

Whatever the eventual cause turns out to be,I'm certainly picking up some useful tips here :y Hopefully the weather will play ball next weekend/Xmas and I'll be able to try the calipers at least.If air is trapped in ABS block how would this present itself[the pedal doesn't pump up as it does if there's air trapped in the system]and how would I get it out if it is?
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terry paget

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #24 on: 17 December 2017, 19:09:14 »

Would it not be a good idea, before the 2 yearly brake fluid change, to put in some worn out brake pads in the rear brakes, force out the pistons hydraulically, and clean them up with steel wool?


if you're going to bleed the brakes anyway, pop them right out and clean them completely. Although I'd use scotchbrite rather than steel wool
I suppose I could take them out while I am about it. I have not had brake pistons out for 40 years, and am not sure of getting them back in again. Of course it all depends on them not being seized in the cylinders already.
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BazaJT

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #25 on: 26 December 2017, 13:13:54 »

Yesterday got off to a poor start so only managed to clamp off brake hoses to give that a try.Pedal improved,removing clamps on front hoses gave same result removed rear clamps and pedal went closer to floor,so it seems to be problem on the rear.Ran out of time to do anything further yesterday,was going to have a look today but washing machine decided to go pete tong >:(
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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #26 on: 26 December 2017, 13:18:52 »

Yesterday got off to a poor start so only managed to clamp off brake hoses to give that a try.Pedal improved,removing clamps on front hoses gave same result removed rear clamps and pedal went closer to floor,so it seems to be problem on the rear.Ran out of time to do anything further yesterday,was going to have a look today but washing machine decided to go pete tong >:(
There it is again.
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BazaJT

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #27 on: 26 December 2017, 13:47:01 »

Don't ask me I don't know why/how that happens ???
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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #28 on: 26 December 2017, 17:22:17 »

Don't ask me I don't know why/how that happens ???
Because you are clearly hitting the strikethrough button ;)
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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #29 on: 26 December 2017, 17:26:37 »

Don't ask me I don't know why/how that happens ???
Because you are clearly hitting the strikethrough button ;)

Difficult to work out how you can do that without knowing it.  :-\
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BazaJT

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #30 on: 26 December 2017, 18:58:42 »

What and where is this strike through button?
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terry paget

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #31 on: 26 December 2017, 22:31:33 »

In top line above, fourth from the right, is the strike through button.
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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #32 on: 26 December 2017, 22:32:40 »

I mean in the reply box. Like this
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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #33 on: 27 December 2017, 08:53:15 »

Basically, somewhere along the line, you've mashed this button:

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Re: Brake pedal travel
« Reply #34 on: 27 December 2017, 11:14:16 »

when you clamped off ALL the hoses did the pedal go very firm with almost no travel. if not then its air in the lines somewhere or faulty master cyl.if it did then its the calipers. remember thou that perfect working calipers must introduce some pedal travel as the piston gets pushed out .but obviously not excessive.
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