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[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Seems good to me.

[STEMO]

Me too.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Me too.

It seems only right that parliament, our elected representatives, should decide.

We will still leave the EU that has already been decided.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Havent seen the news due to swmbo watching soap shite, but I can hazard a guess as to what your on about.
If I'm right, its treasonous treachery. The point of it is to stop it from happening, without admitting that's what they intend to do.
If someone wants to bring back hanging for treason I will happily pay to pull the lever.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Havent seen the news due to swmbo watching soap shite, but I can hazard a guess as to what your on about.
If I'm right, its treasonous treachery. The point of it is to stop it from happening, without admitting that's what they intend to do.
If someone wants to bring back hanging for treason I will happily pay to pull the lever.

We are leaving. Done and dusted.

Surely the whole point of leaving the EU is so the British parliament can 'take back control' from the fiends at the EU. You should be pleased.

Without this vote we have the scenario of a handful of dubious Tory MP's acting as God.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Me too.

It seems only right that parliament, our elected representatives, should decide.

We will still leave the EU that has already been decided.

You could not be more wrong. You really cant see the very obvious conspiracy ??
They gave us the decision to make and we made it. If they vote down the deal and wont accept leaving with no deal the EU simply offers us a worse deal every time they send the Govt. back to ask for another deal, as the EU obviously don't want us to leave.
Then the result of the vote wont happen, but they will be able to look innocent and claim that wasn't what they intended.
They know this is what will happen, in fact its why they are doing what they are doing. 
All those who have come over all enraged about the role of parliament, are the very same people who have given away their power and our sovereignty time and time again, without a murmur a whisper, or even bothering to tell us they were doing it most of the time.
It would be an insult to hypocrites to call them hypocrites. 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Havent seen the news due to swmbo watching soap shite, but I can hazard a guess as to what your on about.
If I'm right, its treasonous treachery. The point of it is to stop it from happening, without admitting that's what they intend to do.
If someone wants to bring back hanging for treason I will happily pay to pull the lever.

We are leaving. Done and dusted.

Surely the whole point of leaving the EU is so the British parliament can 'take back control' from the fiends at the EU. You should be pleased.

Without this vote we have the scenario of a handful of dubious Tory MP's acting as God.

Not necessarily. If they can stop it they will stop it. And they are trying very hard to stop it. The Govt. has sent its team of negotiators to get the best deal they can. They have done a shite job so far, but the deal they get will be the best one we can get in the current circumstances.
Do you really believe they can be sent back when its all done to get a better one ?
Your argument would hold water, if those who have engineered tonights vote were willing to accept no deal as the alternative to the final deal, but they are dead set against that.
There is no other conclusion to reach, other than they are trying to wreck the process in order to stop the referendum result from actually happening.
Do a little research on those who took part and their views on the subject. That will provide the answer.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Me too.

It seems only right that parliament, our elected representatives, should decide.

We will still leave the EU that has already been decided.

You could not be more wrong. You really cant see the very obvious conspiracy ??
They gave us the decision to make and we made it. If they vote down the deal and wont accept leaving with no deal the EU simply offers us a worse deal every time they send the Govt. back to ask for another deal, as the EU obviously don't want us to leave.
Then the result of the vote wont happen, but they will be able to look innocent and claim that wasn't what they intended.
They know this is what will happen, in fact its why they are doing what they are doing. 
All those who have come over all enraged about the role of parliament, are the very same people who have given away their power and our sovereignty time and time again, without a murmur a whisper, or even bothering to tell us they were doing it most of the time.
It would be an insult to hypocrites to call them hypocrites. 

Yes. If the deal put forward by DD and his mates is voted down as 'not good enough' then I presume we leave on WTO terms.

Leave being the operative word.

[STEMO]

Ah...is that what you were on about, Opti. I just humour you these days 

[Doctor Gollum]

Self serving, onanistic oppstarding lady bits

The Brexit process is the least appropriate forum for playing party politics.

Albs, if your arm gets sore from the gallows lever...

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Ah...is that what you were on about, Opti. I just humour you these days 

I suggest you watch the news young man, rather than crap like Emmerdale Farm.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Self serving, onanistic oppstarding lady bits

The Brexit process is the least appropriate forum for playing party politics.

Albs, if your arm gets sore from the gallows lever...

309 of them.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

It's very difficult to express humour or displeasure without the use of emoticons, but I refuse to use the tacky and tawdry crap TB makes us endure over the Christmas period.

I may start my own 'cull list'

[Rods2]

I can't see the leavers accepting anything less than us leaving. WTO terms and democracy over servitude and dictatorship everytime. If we don't leave it will be an open door for Corbyn and his Marxist clan to get voted in or the EU (German) takeover of the UK. Either way it will be the end of UK democracy.

Lord Opti you can practice by culling these

 

[STEMO]

Ah...is that what you were on about, Opti. I just humour you these days 

I suggest you watch the news young man, rather than crap like Emmerdale Farm.

Emmerdale or Brexit..........Emmerdale or Brexit........Hmmmmm



Emmerdale I think. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I can't see the leavers accepting anything less than us leaving. WTO terms and democracy over servitude and dictatorship everytime. If we don't leave it will be an open door for Corbyn and his Marxist clan to get voted in or the EU (German) takeover of the UK. Either way it will be the end of UK democracy.

Lord Opti you can practice by culling these

 

And rightly so, Mr Rods. As I said, this has already been decided by a small majority of the people.

As for my cull list.........I'll start with Jeremy Kyle. I can't believe anyone of sound mind would mourn the passing of this pious sanctimonious shithead. 

[Shackeng]

I'm with Albs, and DrG

[Varche]

Well I said it on the day the referendum result was announced that the establishment would move heaven and earth to overturn the result. In other words we will ExBrexit and rejoin the EU we never left. I still believe that will be the outcome and of course on worse terms with no opt outs and perhaps even having to take the Euro further down the line. Too much at stake for the views of ordinary plebs to be considered. The next twelve months will be relentless softening up the populace.

[Sir Tigger KC]

I was thinking along the same lines the other day and found myself looking at property in New Zealand.  Maybe I could apply for political asylum! 

[Viral_Jim]

I’m sure my views on the subject of the EU are well known.

I am pleased by the result. BUT, I hope that the ultimate MP vote results in us leaving the EU. That is the collective will of the subset of the population who were allowed to and chose to vote. And I say that as a remainer/remoaner/traitor/heretic, delete as your political leanings allow.

We live in a representative democracy where we trust those elected representatives to enact the will of the voters based on their party manifestos, or, in this case a referendum.

Procedural correctness in our political machine is vital, because inbuilt into those procedures are checks and balances which protect subsections of the population (and by extension all of us, because we are all part of one subset or another) from both the vitriol of the masses and the excesses of charismatic or tyrannical leaders.

The act of taking us out of the EU will, for better or worse (depending on your view) probably have a bigger effect on the UK than any other single decision taken since the decision to go to war with Germany in 1939.

It is right and proper that our elected representatives are the ones who enact this change.  It is not right that a weak, wobbly and inept party leader, who is only in power courtesy of a £1bn bung to some Christian extremists gets to unilaterally make that decision.

Theresa May is not out president. She is the leader of a coalition government with a slim majority.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

So, if the MP,s reject the final deal what happens then ?
John Redwood sked Dominic Grieve this very question in the commons today. He wouldn't answer the question but instead gave very long winded reply which had little connection with the question he was supposed to be giving an answer to.

[Viral_Jim]

Clearly, MPs who vote differently to how the majority of voters in their constituency voted in the referendum should lose their seats.  That’s how representative democracy works. No different to if they don’t deliver on other promises they make. 

Just because a particular issue is of particular importance to a person or group of people, doesn’t mean the proper procedures of our democracy should be subverted. The referendum was not legally binding, so there is no reason why it should not pass through the normal procedural routes of parliament.

To allow us to leave the EU without going through the established political procedures would be to allow a political leader to take away citizens’ fundamental rights without a vote in parliament. If that’s something you are comfortable with, you and I have very different views about what living in a representative democracy is all about.

[Sir Tigger KC]

I should think that Junker, Tusk, Barnier and the deranged Verhofstadt are rubbing their hands in glee this evening, as what Parliament has effectively done is to remove authority from David Davis and the PM. 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

What once were the normal procedures of Parliament for centuries have been subverted on almost a daily basis for over 40 years. None of those who complained about it today murmured so much as a word of discontent about it during that time.
The Govt. position is that they will negotiate a deal, put it before Parliament for a vote, if its voted down then we leave under trade under WTO rules.
This doesn't bypass representative democracy or established procedures at all. The Govt. have always stated that Parliament would have a vote.This was about when the vote takes place.
My understanding is that this vote was about Parliament having the right to vote on the deal before it gets that far, so the scenario of either accepting the negotiated deal or reverting to WTO,cannot happen.
In theory, the commons can vote against it and the Govt. is sent back to the EU to negotiate a better deal - from the people who don't want us to leave !
Worse than that, they could get it through the commons and then have it voted down by the Lords.
So a few hundred unelected has beens could overturn the expressed will of 17.4 million voters.
How is that Democratic, representative or otherwise ?

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I should think that Junker, Tusk, Barnier and the deranged Verhofstadt are rubbing their hands in glee this evening, as what Parliament has effectively done is to remove authority from David Davis and the PM. 

Which I'm sure was the intention.

[aaronjb]

I didn't even know this was happening (that's how little I give a  about the whole thing now) but what I heard on the news was basically this (paraphrasing):

"This vote will be the end of the Conservative government. Welcome your new Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn!"

[Varche]

Imagine if we had to go through all this whilst negotiating the outcome of the second world war?

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Dominic Grieve is now organising another rebellion against the Govt. for next Weds. He is hoping to prevent them from committing the EU leave date into law.
Of course I'm sure he has a very good reason for doing this.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Lord Adonis tweeted today "this is the first step in stopping Brexit. 

[Viral_Jim]

My understanding is that this vote was about Parliament having the right to vote on the deal before it gets that far.

Yes, that's true.

There is a big chunk of citizens' rights which only exist because of our membership of the EU. Free travel, right to settle in other EU countries etc etc. If the negotiated deal doesn't include all of those rights (and the entire point of this exercise is that it won't) then, previously parliament would have been given the choice as to whether they take citizens rights away (through the deal) or whether they take them away (through a no-deal). In effect, May, Davis et al will have been able to take away citizens rights while circumventing parliament. Now, in order for those rights to be removed, a majority of our elected representatives will have to decide that that is the right course of action.

Worse than that, they could get it through the commons and then have it voted down by the Lords.
So a few hundred unelected has beens could overturn the expressed will of 17.4 million voters.
How is that Democratic, representative or otherwise ?

Um... Parliament Act.....

[Shackeng]

Like Gadarene swine, as if possessed by demons, they would gallop us all into the swamp that is, or will be, the United States of Europe.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

My understanding is that this vote was about Parliament having the right to vote on the deal before it gets that far.

Yes, that's true.

There is a big chunk of citizens' rights which only exist because of our membership of the EU. Free travel, right to settle in other EU countries etc etc. If the negotiated deal doesn't include all of those rights (and the entire point of this exercise is that it won't) then, previously parliament would have been given the choice as to whether they take citizens rights away (through the deal) or whether they take them away (through a no-deal). In effect, May, Davis et al will have been able to take away citizens rights while circumventing parliament. Now, in order for those rights to be removed, a majority of our elected representatives will have to decide that that is the right course of action.

Worse than that, they could get it through the commons and then have it voted down by the Lords.
So a few hundred unelected has beens could overturn the expressed will of 17.4 million voters.
How is that Democratic, representative or otherwise ?

Um... Parliament Act.....

Those rights you speak of were usually introduced without a vote taking place in Parliament, although I haven't checked the specific ones you mention.
I imagine using the Parliament act in those circumstances could cause civil war to break out in the Westminster bubble, and may cause some kind of constitutional crisis ?

[annihilator]

and I thought this was about which model of Peugeot car to buy 

[Lizzie Zoom]

Worse than that, they could get it through the commons and then have it voted down by the Lords.
So a few hundred unelected has beens could overturn the expressed will of 17.4 million voters.
How is that Democratic, representative or otherwise ?

But that is the thing; just 17.4 million voted to leave out of 46.5 million eligible to vote.  So those who are meant to represent us in the Commons and House of Lords should be mindful that the majority of voters, some 29 million, did not vote to leave but will still expect fair representation.

[Shackeng]

Worse than that, they could get it through the commons and then have it voted down by the Lords.
So a few hundred unelected has beens could overturn the expressed will of 17.4 million voters.
How is that Democratic, representative or otherwise ?

But that is the thing; just 17.4 million voted to leave out of 46.5 million eligible to vote.  So those who are meant to represent us in the Commons and House of Lords should be mindful that the majority of voters, some 29 million, did not vote to leave but will still expect fair representation.

Nor did they vote not to leave, so yes, where is their fair representation?

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Worse than that, they could get it through the commons and then have it voted down by the Lords.
So a few hundred unelected has beens could overturn the expressed will of 17.4 million voters.
How is that Democratic, representative or otherwise ?

But that is the thing; just 17.4 million voted to leave out of 46.5 million eligible to vote.  So those who are meant to represent us in the Commons and House of Lords should be mindful that the majority of voters, some 29 million, did not vote to leave but will still expect fair representation.

Nope. More people voted to leave than remain - more than ever voted for anything in the history of the country actually - and their will prevails. That is how our democracy has always worked.

[Sir Tigger KC]

But that is the thing; just 17.4 million voted to leave out of 46.5 million eligible to vote.  So those who are meant to represent us in the Commons and House of Lords should be mindful that the majority of voters, some 29 million, did not vote to leave but will still expect fair representation.

Oh jeez, you're peddling that crap that those who couldn't be arsed to vote would have voted to remain. 

I didn't think I'd have to give you of all people lectures in how democracy works Lizzie, but those who don't vote for whatever reason whether it's a general election, parish council election or a referendum, are content to go along with the decision of the majority who did vote.  That's how it works!

In this case, the government was given an instruction by the people, and the government of the day that organised the referendum promised to carry out the instructions of the people.  Poll after poll indicates that the people just want the government to get on with it. 

I think it's plain to most that there are significant numbers of British parliamentarians elected and unelected who are seeking to frustrate the process of leaving the European Union, and are dressing their actions up as protecting Parliamentary Sovereignty.  The best way to restore and protect Parliamentary Sovereignty is to have a clean break with the EU and all it's institutions.   

[Lizzie Zoom]

But that is the thing; just 17.4 million voted to leave out of 46.5 million eligible to vote.  So those who are meant to represent us in the Commons and House of Lords should be mindful that the majority of voters, some 29 million, did not vote to leave but will still expect fair representation.

Oh jeez, you're peddling that crap that those who couldn't be arsed to vote would have voted to remain. 

I didn't think I'd have to give you of all people lectures in how democracy works Lizzie, but those who don't vote for whatever reason whether it's a general election, parish council election or a referendum, are content to go along with the decision of the majority who did vote.  That's how it works!

In this case, the government was given an instruction by the people, and the government of the day that organised the referendum promised to carry out the instructions of the people.  Poll after poll indicates that the people just want the government to get on with it. 

I think it's plain to most that there are significant numbers of British parliamentarians elected and unelected who are seeking to frustrate the process of leaving the European Union, and are dressing their actions up as protecting Parliamentary Sovereignty.  The best way to restore and protect Parliamentary Sovereignty is to have a clean break with the EU and all it's institutions. 

Yes, of course that is right.  But the MP's represent their constituencies, and ALL the people within them, regardless of whether they vote or not, and for whom.  Our's is a representative Democracy, and that is why the MP's have to consider all points of view.

Unquestionably out of the people who voted in the referendum a majority, of 4%, did vote to leave.  But if Parliament want to avoid a riot or revolution, it has to also recognise all points of view surrounding the terms of Brexit.  It cannot just do as it pleases and only consider the wishes of the 17.4 million who voted to leave, and only follow one path to Brexit, with no opportunity to consider the FACTS, not the hopes at the time of the Referendum. It must also satisfy the rest of the populations expectations.  That IS politics; that IS Democracy

[Sir Tigger KC]

But that is the thing; just 17.4 million voted to leave out of 46.5 million eligible to vote.  So those who are meant to represent us in the Commons and House of Lords should be mindful that the majority of voters, some 29 million, did not vote to leave but will still expect fair representation.

Oh jeez, you're peddling that crap that those who couldn't be arsed to vote would have voted to remain. 

I didn't think I'd have to give you of all people lectures in how democracy works Lizzie, but those who don't vote for whatever reason whether it's a general election, parish council election or a referendum, are content to go along with the decision of the majority who did vote.  That's how it works!

In this case, the government was given an instruction by the people, and the government of the day that organised the referendum promised to carry out the instructions of the people.  Poll after poll indicates that the people just want the government to get on with it. 

I think it's plain to most that there are significant numbers of British parliamentarians elected and unelected who are seeking to frustrate the process of leaving the European Union, and are dressing their actions up as protecting Parliamentary Sovereignty.  The best way to restore and protect Parliamentary Sovereignty is to have a clean break with the EU and all it's institutions. 

Yes, of course that is right.  But the MP's represent their constituencies, and ALL the people within them, regardless of whether they vote or not, and for whom.  Our's is a representative Democracy, and that is why the MP's have to consider all points of view.

Unquestionably out of the people who voted in the referendum a majority, of 4%, did vote to leave.  But if Parliament want to avoid a riot or revolution, it has to also recognise all points of view surrounding the terms of Brexit.  It cannot just do as it pleases and only consider the wishes of the 17.4 million who voted to leave, and only follow one path to Brexit, with no opportunity to consider the FACTS, not the hopes at the time of the Referendum. It must also satisfy the rest of the populations expectations.  That IS politics; that IS Democracy

So if the referendum result had been 52%-48% in favour of remaining in the EU would we now have a 'soft remain' to take account of the 48% who voted to leave?  Of course not! 

[Lizzie Zoom]

But that is the thing; just 17.4 million voted to leave out of 46.5 million eligible to vote.  So those who are meant to represent us in the Commons and House of Lords should be mindful that the majority of voters, some 29 million, did not vote to leave but will still expect fair representation.

Oh jeez, you're peddling that crap that those who couldn't be arsed to vote would have voted to remain. 

I didn't think I'd have to give you of all people lectures in how democracy works Lizzie, but those who don't vote for whatever reason whether it's a general election, parish council election or a referendum, are content to go along with the decision of the majority who did vote.  That's how it works!

In this case, the government was given an instruction by the people, and the government of the day that organised the referendum promised to carry out the instructions of the people.  Poll after poll indicates that the people just want the government to get on with it. 

I think it's plain to most that there are significant numbers of British parliamentarians elected and unelected who are seeking to frustrate the process of leaving the European Union, and are dressing their actions up as protecting Parliamentary Sovereignty.  The best way to restore and protect Parliamentary Sovereignty is to have a clean break with the EU and all it's institutions. 

Yes, of course that is right.  But the MP's represent their constituencies, and ALL the people within them, regardless of whether they vote or not, and for whom.  Our's is a representative Democracy, and that is why the MP's have to consider all points of view.

Unquestionably out of the people who voted in the referendum a majority, of 4%, did vote to leave.  But if Parliament want to avoid a riot or revolution, it has to also recognise all points of view surrounding the terms of Brexit.  It cannot just do as it pleases and only consider the wishes of the 17.4 million who voted to leave, and only follow one path to Brexit, with no opportunity to consider the FACTS, not the hopes at the time of the Referendum. It must also satisfy the rest of the populations expectations.  That IS politics; that IS Democracy

So if the referendum result had been 52%-48% in favour of remaining in the EU would we now have a 'soft remain' to take account of the 48% who voted to leave?  Of course not! 

Actually yes, it would have made a difference.  No government could have ignored the indicated wishes of those who voted to leave.  It would have to reviewed our approach to Europe, and even do what Scotland are considering; going back to the eople with a new referendum after many changes had taken place, or not.  Politicians do not just live by the result of the last vote; they have to modify their offer to the people to keep them onside as, of course, this is a democracy with regular General Elections (we could have another one coming up soon if discussions over Brexit do not improve and May has to go) so the politicians have to keep apace with those changes.

Nothing is written in concrete.  Just look at the past 350 years of English / British political history.  The people's will will prevail

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Many, possibly most of the Tory rebels who voted against the Govt. last night represent constituencies which voted to leave. 
In the main, our politicians have a long history of completely ignoring their electors and actually treating them with contempt.
This has never been more true than the lies and contempt shown over the last four decades regarding the EEC/ EU.
We were promised by them that voting to join would not result in any loss of sovereigny whetsoever, but Heath, Clarke. Heseltine etc. all later admitted that they knew it was to be a U.S.E but if they told the truth at the time they would never have won the vote.
Clark later boasted that he looked forward to the day when Westminster was nothing more than a glorified council chamber (he got his wish), and Heseltine said as recently as last wek that a U.S.E.  is what he wants, and he still wants us to be a part of it.
These and their like are the people who are now claiming to be fierce Guardians of our precious Parliamentary democracy.
If you believe that, you will believe anything. 

[Lizzie Zoom]

Many, possibly most of the Tory rebels who voted against the Govt. last night represent constituencies which voted to leave. 

That is democracy in action as they know that Brexit should happen but are unhappy about what May and Team have "agreed" or not agreed so far

[Lizzie Zoom]

.........OR, being cynical, is it possible that "the rebels" want to derail the Brexit process and see May go so they can organise a new approach to remain in the EU, but in a far simplified form?

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Many, possibly most of the Tory rebels who voted against the Govt. last night represent constituencies which voted to leave. 

That is democracy in action as they know that Brexit should happen but are unhappy about what May and Team have "agreed" or not agreed so far

Wrong again. Its patently obvious that they are trying to stop Brexit, but still claim that wasn't what they intended after they have done it.
Lord Adonis let the cat out of the bag this morning "this is the first step in stopping Brexit".

[Sir Tigger KC]

So if the referendum result had been 52%-48% in favour of remaining in the EU would we now have a 'soft remain' to take account of the 48% who voted to leave?  Of course not! 

Actually yes, it would have made a difference.  No government could have ignored the indicated wishes of those who voted to leave. It would have to reviewed our approach to Europe, and even do what Scotland are considering; going back to the eople with a new referendum after many changes had taken place, or not.  Politicians do not just live by the result of the last vote; they have to modify their offer to the people to keep them onside as, of course, this is a democracy with regular General Elections (we could have another one coming up soon if discussions over Brexit do not improve and May has to go) so the politicians have to keep apace with those changes.

Nothing is written in concrete.  Just look at the past 350 years of English / British political history.  The people's will will prevail

Sorry Lizzie, but I think that is absolute rubbish! 

Cameron would have strutted around as if he was Drake, Nelson, Wellington and Churchill all rolled into one as the man who 'reformed' the EU and secured Britain's place in Brussels, conveniently ignoring the fact that they offered him very little.    Meanwhile Farage would have been yelling Foul from the rooftops and would have demanded a second referendum. 

The vast majority of parliamentarians would have treated the idea of a second referendum with scorn and derision (especially the LibDems).  The whole idea of Britain leaving the EU would have been kicked into the long grass and those who campaigned for it would have been in the political wilderness for a very long time! 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

.........OR, being cynical, is it possible that "the rebels" want to derail the Brexit process and see May go so they can organise a new approach to remain in the EU, but in a far simplified form?

We got there in the end. 

[Sir Tigger KC]

.........OR, being cynical, is it possible that "the rebels" want to derail the Brexit process and see May go so they can organise a new approach to remain in the EU, but in a far simplified form?

Cameron tried to renegotiate the terms of our membership but spectacularly failed! 

You are in cloud cuckoo land if you think that now they will let us stay on simplified terms!  If anything they will try and bind us in tighter if we try to change our mind!    The rebate will go, the Euro will be a reality, Schengen will be a reality and our armed forces will be commanded from Brussels as well!    And that's just for starters! 

[Lizzie Zoom]

Many, possibly most of the Tory rebels who voted against the Govt. last night represent constituencies which voted to leave. 

That is democracy in action as they know that Brexit should happen but are unhappy about what May and Team have "agreed" or not agreed so far

Wrong again. Its patently obvious that they are trying to stop Brexit, but still claim that wasn't what they intended after they have done it.
Lord Adonis let the cat out of the bag this morning "this is the first step in stopping Brexit".

Really?  You are just supporting my last post!

Ah, just seen your latest post!!

[Lizzie Zoom]

.........OR, being cynical, is it possible that "the rebels" want to derail the Brexit process and see May go so they can organise a new approach to remain in the EU, but in a far simplified form?

Cameron tried to renegotiate the terms of our membership but spectacularly failed! 

You are in cloud cuckoo land if you think that now they will let us stay on simplified terms!  If anything they will try and bind us in tighter if we try to change our mind!    The rebate will go, the Euro will be a reality, Schengen will be a reality and our armed forces will be commanded from Brussels as well!    And that's just for starters! 

Did I say this is all so easy, and Brexit can be a very straightforward process with everyone being satisfied and happy?

Now if you think that you are living in cloud cuckoo land.  This is all a mess, just like politics often is, but in this case on a massive national scale.  Politics is NEVER straightforward and is to many involved just a game of power; like chess, but with reality involved.

In the past it has got us involved in wars, as those who are in power do not have to fight them.  This time it is the political and economic future of our nation and it's people's at stake (oh, just like when we have a war!!)

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I was still typing my post when you posted yours.
Sir Tigger is absolutely correct. If we try to leave and fail, there will be no more pretence of making allowances for the British "reluctant Europeans".
They are in the process of taking over member states armed forces and are planning an EU treasury and much much more.
Schulz said last week that we must have U.S.E.by 2025, and those who wont agree to it will be expelled, without any trade deal etc.
Verhofstadt voiced his agreement soon after. Its going to happen, its just a matter of when.Its widely known that this was the plan right from the start. It amazes me that anyone could even doubt it.
We are getting out at the right time. If we dont,we will become members of a federal superstate and lose any pretence of being a sovereign nation.
Then of course it will collapse at some point, and with our level of national debt, we would become the new Greece.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I was still typing my post when you posted yours.
Sir Tigger is absolutely correct. If we try to leave and fail, there will be no more pretence of making allowances for the British "reluctant Europeans".
They are in the process of taking over member states armed forces and are planning an EU treasury and much much more.
Schulz said last week that we must have U.S.E.by 2025, and those who wont agree to it will be expelled, without any trade deal etc.
Verhofstadt voiced his agreement soon after. Its going to happen, its just a matter of when.Its widely known that this was the plan right from the start. It amazes me that anyone could even doubt it.
We are getting out at the right time. If we dont,we will become members of a federal superstate and lose any pretence of being a sovereign nation.
Then of course it will collapse at some point, and with our level of national debt, we would become the new Greece.

That is why, with all the 'dangle berries' that is now going on, even I just want to LEAVE NOW!

But, as I said, politics is never straightforward OR HONEST!

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I can understand that. Ive spoken to quite a few people who, on balance, vote remain due to the things being said by Cameron. Osborne etc. But would now vote leave if they had the chance, due to the EU attitude to the UK recently. But above all, just want them to bloody get on with it and get the job done.

[Shackeng]

It is perhaps worth revisiting the table here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/leave-or-remain-eu-referendum-results-and-live-maps/ to see that apart from Norn Irn, Scotland and London the country voted overwhelmingly  Leave, but one would think by the remoaners whingeing that it was a damn close run thing. I think the map in the link says it all.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I can understand that. Ive spoken to quite a few people who, on balance, vote remain due to the things being said by Cameron. Osborne etc. But would now vote leave if they had the chance, due to the EU attitude to the UK recently. But above all, just want them to bloody get on with it and get the job done.

That is it now.  Enough is enough.  The way the EU is treating us is just wrong.  They
are showing the very flaws, and more, that made me vote "No" in 1975 to the Common Market, but I have given it (the EU) a chance to do good.  Now, the longer Brexit goes on the less time I have with it all; the pure dictatorship that the 27 are trying to put over on us.  They have just gone too far, and the EU dream has become a nightmare.  Observers are right in recognising this in fact could be the end of the EU.  We have just got to leave now, without looking back, no matter what the costs and negative implications are ( the reason why I voted to remain). Well that is over.  Long live Great Britain

[Rods2]

I can understand that. Ive spoken to quite a few people who, on balance, vote remain due to the things being said by Cameron. Osborne etc. But would now vote leave if they had the chance, due to the EU attitude to the UK recently. But above all, just want them to bloody get on with it and get the job done.

I saw a poll last week on how much opinions have hardened towards the Government getting on with #Brexit. Those that still wanted to Remain by allegiance to a political party was 21% for Conservative voters, 26% for Labour and the highest for for the Libdems on 31%. I know several people who only voted remain due to their worries about Project Fear and when that didn't happen the would vote Leave now.

The fact that the EUSSR is a political project and a dictatorship means it will end very badly like these things always do when the politicians aren't held to account, hired and fired by the people through the ballot box. The Euro is having the opposite effect of bringing economies closer together and is partly due to the lack of democratic accountability where all ECB decisions are made by Germans to make Germany stronger economically. The deliberate positive trade balance that Germany has with the rest of the EU and a refusal of cash transfers to weaker poorer countries can only end up with the current account being balanced by the deficit countries selling companies and other assets to Germany. Will Germany end up owning most of the other EU countries assets or will the EUSSR fail first?

[Sir Tigger KC]

I can understand that. Ive spoken to quite a few people who, on balance, vote remain due to the things being said by Cameron. Osborne etc. But would now vote leave if they had the chance, due to the EU attitude to the UK recently. But above all, just want them to bloody get on with it and get the job done.

That is it now.  Enough is enough.  The way the EU is treating us is just wrong.  They
are showing the very flaws, and more, that made me vote "No" in 1975 to the Common Market, but I have given it (the EU) a chance to do good.  Now, the longer Brexit goes on the less time I have with it all; the pure dictatorship that the 27 are trying to put over on us.  They have just gone too far, and the EU dream has become a nightmare.  Observers are right in recognising this in fact could be the end of the EU.  We have just got to leave now, without looking back, no matter what the costs and negative implications are ( the reason why I voted to remain). Well that is over.  Long live Great Britain

Bloody hell Lizzie, you've changed your tune!!     

[Lizzie Zoom]

I can understand that. Ive spoken to quite a few people who, on balance, vote remain due to the things being said by Cameron. Osborne etc. But would now vote leave if they had the chance, due to the EU attitude to the UK recently. But above all, just want them to bloody get on with it and get the job done.

That is it now.  Enough is enough.  The way the EU is treating us is just wrong.  They
are showing the very flaws, and more, that made me vote "No" in 1975 to the Common Market, but I have given it (the EU) a chance to do good.  Now, the longer Brexit goes on the less time I have with it all; the pure dictatorship that the 27 are trying to put over on us.  They have just gone too far, and the EU dream has become a nightmare.  Observers are right in recognising this in fact could be the end of the EU.  We have just got to leave now, without looking back, no matter what the costs and negative implications are ( the reason why I voted to remain). Well that is over.  Long live Great Britain

Bloody hell Lizzie, you've changed your tune!!     

Oh yes, like any good politician you have to know when the situation has changed enough for you to review how you stand and act accordingly.  All the greats have done that in the past

[Lizzie Zoom]

................I would add though that my observations about satisfying the whole UK population with a good, sensible Brexit still stand, and I would expect all our MP's to act in a responsible manner to achieve that.  We cannot end up with a right shambles of a deal, and leave our country divided; that would be politically very damaging and a real threat to national unity.

I can but hope with the rest of you!

[Sir Tigger KC]

Sadly I think that Britain's membership of the EU or lack of it will always be a running sore in this country..... 

[Rods2]

We must hope that we have a deal which doesn't severely harm bilateral trade. This is in the interests of member states but probably not the EU commission as their jobs won't be riding on the end result unlike all elected politicians in the UK and EU member states. Recessions tend to end political careers as Gordon McRuin found out.

[Varche]

I am on a few expat forums and without exception a Brexit member is a rare thing.

Some topics even embrace the idea of an ue state. Here in Spain they see very little wrong with the EU and think Britain is mad to be leaving. Mind you the same people scoffed at me when following the crash I said it would take Spain ten years to get back on its feet. They sad one maybe two years. The point is people see the same thing very differently.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Lively debate on QT! 

[Viral_Jim]

It is perhaps worth revisiting the table here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/leave-or-remain-eu-referendum-results-and-live-maps/ to see that apart from Norn Irn, Scotland and London the country voted overwhelmingly  Leave, but one would think by the remoaners whingeing that it was a damn close run thing. I think the map in the link says it all.

No, not really. There are 382 areas in that uk map. A result of 17,000,000 vs 17,000,382 could colour the UK 100% remain, each region being swayed by one vote. Presumably under your logic, you would agree that result would be a landslide in favour of remain? Despite being swung by 0.0011% of the vote.

There are many useful ways of cutting the referendum data, an overly simplistic map, coloured one of 2 colours, is not one of them

[Viral_Jim]

I am on a few expat forums and without exception a Brexit member is a rare thing.

Odd that, in the run up to the referendum there were s number of surveys done amongst brits living on the Costa del Awful. Without exception, they were voting leave. Seemingly unaware that both their indefinite leave to remain in their country of choice and the index linking of their pensions ere both contingent on remaining part of the club they say despise.

[Shackeng]

It is perhaps worth revisiting the table here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/leave-or-remain-eu-referendum-results-and-live-maps/ to see that apart from Norn Irn, Scotland and London the country voted overwhelmingly  Leave, but one would think by the remoaners whingeing that it was a damn close run thing. I think the map in the link says it all.

No, not really. There are 382 areas in that uk map. A result of 17,000,000 vs 17,000,382 could colour the UK 100% remain, each region being swayed by one vote. Presumably under your logic, you would agree that result would be a landslide in favour of remain? Despite being swung by 0.0011% of the vote.

There are many useful ways of cutting the referendum data, an overly simplistic map, coloured one of 2 colours, is not one of them

They could have, but didn’t, England voted overall 6.4% in favour of leave, even including the massive London vote to remain.

[Viral_Jim]

No one is disputing the result (not that I am aware of at least). My point was that using a map that shows 80-90% of the country being in favour of a decision does not tell you much that’s useful about a decision made with a 6% margin of victory.

[Shackeng]

No one is disputing the result (not that I am aware of at least). My point was that using a map that shows 80-90% of the country being in favour of a decision does not tell you much that’s useful about a decision made with a 6% margin of victory.

Perhaps I could have worded it better, I was really referring to the figures, which, if you remove the unsurprising London result, gives a clear margin to leave for the rest of England. I CBA to do the maths.

[raywilb]

Seems good to me.

   I thought the post was going to be about peugeots 

[Kevin Wood]

Seems good to me.

   I thought the post was going to be about peugeots 

It's worse than that.