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[Sir Tigger KC]

So it seems I'm about to have a row with my neighbours as to who owns the fence between us! 

As far as I'm aware there's a convention that when you stand in the road facing your house, the fence to the right is your responsibility, which is the case with the fence in question.  This is what the neighbour is relying on, but I don't think it has any standing in law.

The reason I'm disputing this is that my house was built 20 - 30 years before theirs and the land on which their house now stands was part of the garden of a big old manor house behind.  At that time there would have been a hedge between my house and the garden of the manor house which would have been on the right of the manor house behind.  A small part of this hedge still survives where the bottom of my garden overlaps with the garden of the manor house behind and they once told me quite clearly that it's their hedge when I cut it back a bit too enthusiastically! 

When the developers subdivided the garden for the 2 new houses and leveled the plot, they would have ripped out the hedge and built a retaining wall with the said fence on top as the boundary between my house and the new house.  I think that the ownership of the boundary would have passed from the manor house behind to the new house in the sub division, rather than to the existing house next door (ie mine). 

The fence is pretty knackered now and they're saying it's my fence, but they have form for this sort of thing as a couple of years ago they told their neighbour on the other side that the fence between them was his and he had to replace it, which he did. 

There is nothing in my deeds or Land Registry Certificate that indicates who owns the fence.   

Sorry for the long winded post but I often finds it helps to get my thoughts in order when I write things out and who knows I might even get some intelligent suggestions!   

Thanks! 

 

[Doctor Gollum]

If it's not in your deeds, then it cannot be your fence... QED

[pauls]

If iam not mistaken as you look at the front of the house your fence runs down the left hand side. But you state nothing in your deeds then its nothing to do with you.

[pauls]

Just googled this and it states right hand side
Sorry no help then.

[Bigron]

What type of fence is it? If it has supports, then the support side indicates that it is your responsibility - i.e. the "posh" side facing outwards away from your property. If it is of concrete-post-slide-in-panels type, it is indeterminate.
However, to define a boundary you are not legally required to have a full fence, just a handful of stakes/posts to indicate the line of the boundary.

Ron.

[Keith ABS]

  My previous house, as you looked at it from the road, the left fence was mine. If not on your deeds, its not yours.

Keith ABS

[pscocoa]

 My garden adjoins 5 other gardens. I have replaced fence twice in 35 years at more or less my costs as I cannot be bothered with the hassle of asking for contributions as most are happy to sit looking at rotting fence which I am not. Interestingly this last time one or two asked if I wanted money but I declined.

With the case from the original post I would just put your case to neighbour and either meet him half way or just rely on Manor House story and let him prove contrary. Probably not worth going legal if cost of fence not too big.

[tunnie]

Sounds like it should go 50/50 on replacement, due to age and it’s not clear who exactly owns it.

My back garden fence separates the two gardens behind us with my neighbor, we’ve agreed that if there was ever storm damage or it just falls down. (Its crap quality, being new build house) that we would go 50/50 on costs.

[STEMO]

Knock it down. If someone protests, then they obviously have an interest in it, so come to a deal with them. If no one says anything, they obviously think it’s yours to do as you like with.

[TheBoy]

What type of fence is it? If it has supports, then the support side indicates that it is your responsibility - i.e. the "posh" side facing outwards away from your property.

This was my understanding if the deeds do not declare it.

[TheBoy]

(Its crap quality, being new build house) that we would go 50/50 on costs.

2 sides of my garden are still on original fence (17yrs), although it did get a new post about 5yrs ago when the side door of the garage hit it with some force.

The 3rd side was also replaced after it burnt down at the same time

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Sounds like Triggers fence. 

[TheBoy]

Sounds like Triggers fence. 

Given my poor spelling, maybe I should rename myself Trig

[Sir Tigger KC]

Sounds like Triggers fence. 

Because neither of us will take ownership we've been bodging it up for years and my neighbours input has always been very reluctant.  They are elderly so guess who has done the bulk of the work?  Triggers fence indeed! 

[Shackeng]

Sounds like Triggers fence. 

Because neither of us will take ownership we've been bodging it up for years and my neighbours input has always been very reluctant.  They are elderly so guess who has done the bulk of the work?  Triggers fence indeed! 

Whose side are the supporting posts on?

[Sir Tigger KC]

It's a panel fence and the panels are fixed in the middle of the posts, the neighbours have the 'posh' side of the fence.  I don't think that the 'posh' side means much though to be honest as I think that the developers erected the fence in the first place and placed the posh side on their side so it looked nice for a sale. 

I replaced 2 fences a few months ago on a rental property I have and contacted the owners on either side to see if they would be willing to share the costs of replacing the fences.  They both declined saying it was my fences, so both fences have the nice side facing into my garden.  Fick 'em!   

[Shackeng]

It's a panel fence and the panels are fixed in the middle of the posts, the neighbours have the 'posh' side of the fence.  I don't think that the 'posh' side means much though to be honest as I think that the developers erected the fence in the first place and placed the posh side on their side so it looked nice for a sale. 

I replaced 2 fences a few months ago on a rental property I have and contacted the owners on either side to see if they would be willing to share the costs of replacing the fences.  They both declined saying it was my fences, so both fences have the nice side facing into my garden.  Fick 'em!   

Nice one, it might imply in the future that they own the fences!
I do know from some rental terraced properties I used to own, that the default ownership of a dividing fence/wall was the right one looking from the front, as has been stated above.

[Sir Tigger KC]

I think that the right/left side, like the posh side is a convention/rule of thumb thing rather than having any basis in law to be honest Shack. 

Because this fence looks really shabby from my side and due to the fact that the neighbours are elderly, I have offered to rebuild the whole thing so that it outlasts us both and we won't have a dispute.  I have a heap of new feather edge fencing boards which I acquired recently which I think will do most of it and I'll be able to clad both sides so it looks great for us both.  I asked them if they would make a small contribution for whatever extra materials I need.  They thought this was a good idea and agreed. 

Since then their bloody daughter has stuck her oar in and has convinced her parents that I'm trying to get them to pay for the whole thing and that it's my fence and they shouldn't get involved.     The poor old girl has got quite upset about it, but I've managed to placate her and she seems reassured at the moment. 

I guess that's until the daughter gets involved again, but I'll do it anyway and if they don't contribute, I'll just clad my side. 

[Shackeng]

I think that the right/left side, like the posh side is a convention/rule of thumb thing rather than having any basis in law to be honest Shack.

Because this fence looks really shabby from my side and due to the fact that the neighbours are elderly, I have offered to rebuild the whole thing so that it outlasts us both and we won't have a dispute.  I have a heap of new feather edge fencing boards which I acquired recently which I think will do most of it and I'll be able to clad both sides so it looks great for us both.  I asked them if they would make a small contribution for whatever extra materials I need.  They thought this was a good idea and agreed. 

Since then their bloody daughter has stuck her oar in and has convinced her parents that I'm trying to get them to pay for the whole thing and that it's my fence and they shouldn't get involved.     The poor old girl has got quite upset about it, but I've managed to placate her and she seems reassured at the moment. 

I guess that's until the daughter gets involved again, but I'll do it anyway and if they don't contribute, I'll just clad my side. 

True, I am just pointing out what I was advised, and what is accepted in court disputes where nothing is stated on anyone's deeds. In your case you have some evidence that it was built by the developer of the adjacent property, so  should you wish to make a case you should be on fairly strong legal grounds to place the responsibility on your elderly neighbours. I fully appreciate why you are taking the job on, but remember, once having done so, you will now own the fence.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I think that the right/left side, like the posh side is a convention/rule of thumb thing rather than having any basis in law to be honest Shack. 

Because this fence looks really shabby from my side and due to the fact that the neighbours are elderly, I have offered to rebuild the whole thing so that it outlasts us both and we won't have a dispute.  I have a heap of new feather edge fencing boards which I acquired recently which I think will do most of it and I'll be able to clad both sides so it looks great for us both.  I asked them if they would make a small contribution for whatever extra materials I need.  They thought this was a good idea and agreed. 

Since then their bloody daughter has stuck her oar in and has convinced her parents that I'm trying to get them to pay for the whole thing and that it's my fence and they shouldn't get involved.     The poor old girl has got quite upset about it, but I've managed to placate her and she seems reassured at the moment. 

I guess that's until the daughter gets involved again, but I'll do it anyway and if they don't contribute, I'll just clad my side. 

Coming in late on this thread Sir Tigger, and after all the sound advice, I would just comment that you have a choice.  Go to a solicitor and pay good money for advice and legal action, or just do the job yourself.

Having once had a similar problem, my ex just decided to do the job (as he could) and end up with a sound fence and not pay out good money for legal fees, then end up with a decision that means you have to do the bloody job anyway!

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Sir Tig owns half of Dorset. He could easily have this guy 'terminated'

[2boxerdogs]

Sounds like Triggers fence. 

Because neither of us will take ownership we've been bodging it up for years and my neighbours input has always been very reluctant.  They are elderly so guess who has done the bulk of the work?  Triggers fence indeed! 

Whose side are the supporting posts on?

Did both sides of my house when we moved in 30 years ago  great neighbours on both sides & they have helped throughout that time to maintain it, both in their late 80s/90s now so I do it all now, in my opinion not worth falling out over a few bits of wood.

[Rods2]

I think it being the right side being your fence depends upon the circumstances. Most of the houses down my road have been built by dividing much older houses long back gardens, so my fence is on the left which follows the convention on it being on the older house beind right.

[Sir Tigger KC]

I think that I've made them a good and fair offer to build a new and strong fence (largely at my expense and effort) that will see us all off, and all I'm asking is a small contribution towards it. 

I've no intention of going down the legal route over a few bits of wood, but neither am I going to be pushed around and if they don't want to cooperate they'll get a new fence anyway.    It's just that they might not like the end result in that scenario!   

To be fair to my neighbours they seem OK really, it's their bloody daughter stirring the pot in the background, and it's since they've spoken to her that they keep bringing up the ownership issue.  She probably thinks I'm trying to squander her inheritance! 

As to my thoughts on the ownership issue I havn't commented on that yet and am keeping my powder dry! 

[redelitev6]

I think that the right/left side, like the posh side is a convention/rule of thumb thing rather than having any basis in law to be honest Shack. 

Because this fence looks really shabby from my side and due to the fact that the neighbours are elderly, I have offered to rebuild the whole thing so that it outlasts us both and we won't have a dispute.  I have a heap of new feather edge fencing boards which I acquired recently which I think will do most of it and I'll be able to clad both sides so it looks great for us both.  I asked them if they would make a small contribution for whatever extra materials I need.  They thought this was a good idea and agreed. 

Since then their bloody daughter has stuck her oar in and has convinced her parents that I'm trying to get them to pay for the whole thing and that it's my fence and they shouldn't get involved.     The poor old girl has got quite upset about it, but I've managed to placate her and she seems reassured at the moment. 

I guess that's until the daughter gets involved again, but I'll do it anyway and if they don't contribute, I'll just clad my side. 

Simple solution , you do half of the fence and leave the other half to them !

[ronnyd]

I think that I've made them a good and fair offer to build a new and strong fence (largely at my expense and effort) that will see us all off, and all I'm asking is a small contribution towards it. 

I've no intention of going down the legal route over a few bits of wood, but neither am I going to be pushed around and if they don't want to cooperate they'll get a new fence anyway.    It's just that they might not like the end result in that scenario!   

To be fair to my neighbours they seem OK really, it's their bloody daughter stirring the pot in the background, and it's since they've spoken to her that they keep bringing up the ownership issue.  She probably thinks I'm trying to squander her inheritance! 

As to my thoughts on the ownership issue I havn't commented on that yet and am keeping my powder dry! 

Can you show their (bloody) daughter a copy of your material
 costs etc. to show that you ain,t screwing her Mum and Dad over.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Can you show their (bloody) daughter a copy of your material
 costs etc. to show that you ain,t screwing her Mum and Dad over.

The bloody daughter lives in some ghastly place like Readingham or Wokingstoke and probably thinks I'm a carrot crunching yokel with straw coming out of my ears!    

It's always fun when people from the home counties come down yer and think we're all a bit simple. 

[ronnyd]

Can you show their (bloody) daughter a copy of your material
 costs etc. to show that you ain,t screwing her Mum and Dad over.

The bloody daughter lives in some ghastly place like Readingham or Wokingstoke and probably thinks I'm a carrot crunching yokel with straw coming out of my ears!    

It's always fun when people from the home counties come down yer and think we're all a bit simple. 

Try living in Suffolk.

[Kevin Wood]

I fully appreciate why you are taking the job on, but remember, once having done so, you will now own the fence.

Very good point. 

One you have repaired it once, you will have lost the ability to argue otherwise.

[Sir Tigger KC]

If I assume ownership of the fence, then I guess I also assume ownership of the retaining wall it sits on. 

I don't think that that is an issue as I can't see that going anywhere, but you never know. 

[STEMO]

Bit sick of hearing about this fence now. Get it fixed or leave it wrecked, but shut up about the fickin thing. 

[TheBoy]

Bit sick of hearing about this fence now. Get it fixed or leave it wrecked, but shut up about the fickin thing. 

I can feel the Christmas love, STEMO

[Shackeng]

Bit sick of hearing about this fence now. Get it fixed or leave it wrecked, but shut up about the fickin thing. 

I can feel the Christmas love, STEMO

Yes, gives a nice warm glow don't it, I can cut back on the heating, again.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Bit sick of hearing about this fence now. Get it fixed or leave it wrecked, but shut up about the fickin thing. 

Just sit on the ficking fence why don't you Uncle STEMO!   

[Rods2]

I'm sure if they don't make a contribution, they will appreciate looking out on your new old rusty corrugated iron faced fence panels, splattered with various primary colour paints and graffiti for the Darset urban-country rustic look.

[Marks DTM Calib]

My understanding is that unless the deeds defines ownership then it is a party fence (note, even a T marked on the plan does not define ownership, it has to be specifically mentioned in the deeds) and a 50:50 cost for replacement/repair.

There are various notions that the way a wall or fence is constructed indicates ownership, for example that the posts and arris rails of a fence are on the owner’s side. There is, however, no legal foundation for such beliefs. Deeds may contain covenants to maintain a wall or fence but on their own, such covenants do not confer ownership. Where the ownership or responsibility for maintenance of a boundary cannot be determined, that boundary feature is generally best regarded as a party boundary. Any alterations or replacement of the boundary should only be done with the agreement of the adjoining owners.
 
The register will only show information concerning the ownership and/or maintenance of boundary features when this information is specifically referred to in the deeds lodged for registration. The most common marking on deed plans that relates to boundaries are ‘T’ marks. An entry referring to a ‘T’ mark is normally a statement concerning the ownership of a boundary structure or the liability to maintain and repair it.
 
If the ‘T’ marks are expressly referred to in the deeds lodged for registration then we will reproduce them on the title plan and refer to them in the register. As an alternative, the boundaries affected by ‘T’ marks may only be described verbally in the register, for example “The ‘T’ mark referred to [in paragraph/clause…] affects the [north western] boundary of the land in this title”.
 
‘T’ marks on deed plans which are not referred to in the text of a deed have no special force or meaning in law and unless an applicant specifically requests that the ‘T’ marks be shown on the title plan, we will normally ignore them.