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Author Topic: one for the (ex)boys in blue...  (Read 1963 times)

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05omegav6

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one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« on: 05 May 2011, 08:44:12 »

Long story short, about midnight a couple of weeks ago on a rural road, I got baited into passing a nearly stationary car at a camera, got flashed and got the dreaded in the post yesterday. 48 in a 40, not amused. >:(

I was driving, that was the speed I was doing, (Calibrated speedo... :-X) so I would say caught red handed, send the form off and take the points. :-[

BUT...

It transpires that the limit MAY be un enforceable for at least one reason, possibly more.

1. On one of the approaches, the primary limit sign is missing from the offside of the road.
2. Another of the primary signs on another approach is propped against the hedge.
3. The camera is reputed to be faulty.

Would any of these hold any credence to quash the NIP?  :-/

It has also been suggested that I should write a covering letter with photos of the two missing signs and send them in with the acknowledgement letter.

My only concern is that in order to avoid ploughing into the car that had panic braked at the camera, I had to cross the un broken double white line. So although I don't have the photo yet, (I may well ask for it), I am 99% certain that it will show me on the wrong side of the road, and possibly not show the other vehicle. :-/

If the signage technicallity is legitimate, then am I leaving myself open to being shafted for all else?

TIA,

Al.
« Last Edit: 05 May 2011, 08:45:37 by 05omegav6 »
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Lazydocker

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Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #1 on: 05 May 2011, 08:48:24 »

Personally, as you have admitted you were speeding, I'd just take the penalty ;) Any chance of a speed awareness course?
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05omegav6

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Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #2 on: 05 May 2011, 08:55:32 »

Not sure if that's an option as it's outside the 10%+2 :-/

There are two hopes, and Bob is dead. :-X

There is a school of thought relating to tanker drivers: better to have a shunt, than roll the truck avoiding one... at least then the ejit who (helped) create(d) the situation would still be around when everyone turns up.. ::)
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #3 on: 05 May 2011, 09:19:17 »

I would also be careful in what you say in writing - should you decide to appeal the Notice. 

Consider this first however, in addition to admitting driving at excess speed to the posted limit (as LD says) you may also offer an excuse for your car being on the wrong side of a solid white line.

This could amount to a admission of driving without due care and attention as you were driving at such a speed and positioned in such a way that you got 'baited' into taking this avoiding action.

There can be grounds for appeal in many circumstances but (in short, and in my view) you may have to expose more of your ass than necessary, should you decide to appeal this one.
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unlucky alf

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Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #4 on: 05 May 2011, 10:04:31 »

Where did you get the info that the scamera may be faulty?, also when was the last time the thing was calibrated?, im not sure but i think you can request a copy of the calibration certificate but dont quote me on that. :-/ :-/
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hotel21

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Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #5 on: 05 May 2011, 10:58:39 »

If you feel the need to contend the matter, you need to act quickly.

NIP must be served within 14 days of the offence.  Check the postmark of the envelope against date of alleged offence.  If its more than 14 days respond with a letter advising the camera partnership of their error and await a reply.

If its within 14 days (and thats postmark remember, not the day it dropped through your letterbox) proceedings are deemed commenced.

As to the speed regulatory signs being missing or covered up by vegetation?  Worth a shot but, in all honesty, doubt it may proceed.  If its a one horse village with one road in/out then might just work.  If a larger town with several routes in/out?  Doubt it.

Faulty camera?  Pub talk, or based on fact?  If it was known to be faulty by the Camera Partnership, why send out the NIP's?  Again, worth a try but dont hold your breath.

Overall, I think the last line of your initial post kinda sums it up.

Quote
If the signage technicallity is legitimate, then am I leaving myself open to being shafted for all else?

If you are contesting the matter, would suggest not returning the NIP - yet - simply aknowledge its receipt and enclose your reply on whichever point floats your boat.

Take care to ensure that you are in a position to return the completed NIP within required timescales (normally outlined upon it) otherwise the matter may well be escalated.

Ultimately, irrespective of the reasons you perceive as mitigating circumstances, it appears that you overtook on solid whites, at excess of the speed limit, because you were unable to stop in time to prevent yourself going up the harris of the car in front - which indicates you and he were perhaps playing tig and you were too close to react to their brake testing you.....
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TheBoy

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Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #6 on: 05 May 2011, 11:33:55 »

Quote
Ultimately, irrespective of the reasons you perceive as mitigating circumstances, it appears that you overtook on solid whites, at excess of the speed limit, because you were unable to stop in time to prevent yourself going up the harris of the car in front - which indicates you and he were perhaps playing tig and you were too close to react to their brake testing you.....
I think thats the key point here... ...you need good reasons to have crossed the line, overtaking, breaking the speed limit.  I fear that you felt you were being baited will not hold up in this situation, with the judge (as it would go to court) deeming you should have followed the car at a safe distance until safe to pass
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Kevin Wood

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Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #7 on: 05 May 2011, 12:50:39 »

It might have been worth a punt if you were a few MPH over the limit, the road was clear, and you could reasonably argue that you were driving according to the conditions and weren't aware of the limit where the signage issues were a mitigating factor.

As it is, you risk stirring up a hornet's nest if evidence emerges of you overtaking on a double white line, etc. As others have said, I'd take the rap and not do anything that might trigger more detailed investigation of the photos from the camera if I were you. :-/

Kevin
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JamesV6CDX

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Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #8 on: 05 May 2011, 13:09:29 »

I cannot offer you any advise on what you should do, however you do need to consider, as said by others, that if you start requesting the evidence, which then shows further offences, you would shoot yourself in the foot and leave yourself open to being reported for further offences.

The car braking in front, would be unlikely to be considered any defence, as the prosecution would simply argue you didn't leave enough distance to stop safely (and may argue you committed further offences on this basis)

48 in a 40? If that were me, I'd take it on the chin, and would promptly write a very polite back to the camera partnership, stating you accept you were 8mph over the limit, and asking if you can be considered for a speed awareness course, to avoid the points.

But, it's your decision  :y

Edited to add - just seen your username - indicates you're a taxi driver? If so, were you driving a car on taxi plates at the time?

Just thinking if that is also known, they may well also argue the fact that as a professional driver, you should be more in control.

Reality is, 3 points won't make a huge difference, if your license is otherwise clean - just be good for the next 3 years  ;D

« Last Edit: 05 May 2011, 13:17:41 by JamesV6CDX »
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tigers_gonads

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Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #9 on: 05 May 2011, 13:34:47 »

I think in this case, the best thing to do is take the corse / points on the chin 

If you try and dodge this one, you will end up in more sh*t  :y
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2woody

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Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #10 on: 05 May 2011, 13:41:00 »

from what you told me, you joined the road via the access which didn't have a speed limit sign, so how could you have known what the limit was ?
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hotel21

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Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #11 on: 05 May 2011, 13:51:22 »

Quote
from what you told me, you joined the road via the access which didn't have a speed limit sign, so how could you have known what the limit was ?
Fair point and sounds like some facts are perhaps missing from the original post?

To answer your query though, if you stepped out an aircraft/train in a town centre and jumped into a hire car, how would you know the speed limit, if you did not pass any signs?


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Andy B

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Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #12 on: 05 May 2011, 15:13:07 »

Although it doesn't get Al off the hook, double white lines don't actually mean 'no overtaking'. Rule 129 http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070306  ;)
« Last Edit: 05 May 2011, 19:34:02 by Andy_B »
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hotel21

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Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #13 on: 05 May 2011, 15:28:10 »

Quote
Although it doesn't get Tony off the hook, double white lines don't actually mean 'no overtaking'. Rule 129 http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070306  ;)

Guess that you would need to prove that the car on the inside was either stationary or road maintenance vehicle at less than 10 mph...

Quote
129
Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.

my highlight.  :)

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TheBoy

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Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #14 on: 05 May 2011, 15:29:14 »

Quote
Quote
from what you told me, you joined the road via the access which didn't have a speed limit sign, so how could you have known what the limit was ?
Fair point and sounds like some facts are perhaps missing from the original post?

To answer your query though, if you stepped out an aircraft/train in a town centre and jumped into a hire car, how would you know the speed limit, if you did not pass any signs?


Street lights in urban areas mean 30mph, else has to have signage every 250 (?) yards, else its NSL ?
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