Omega Owners Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to OOF

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: one for the (ex)boys in blue...  (Read 1964 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

05omegav6

  • Guest
one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« on: 05 May 2011, 08:44:12 »

Long story short, about midnight a couple of weeks ago on a rural road, I got baited into passing a nearly stationary car at a camera, got flashed and got the dreaded in the post yesterday. 48 in a 40, not amused. >:(

I was driving, that was the speed I was doing, (Calibrated speedo... :-X) so I would say caught red handed, send the form off and take the points. :-[

BUT...

It transpires that the limit MAY be un enforceable for at least one reason, possibly more.

1. On one of the approaches, the primary limit sign is missing from the offside of the road.
2. Another of the primary signs on another approach is propped against the hedge.
3. The camera is reputed to be faulty.

Would any of these hold any credence to quash the NIP?  :-/

It has also been suggested that I should write a covering letter with photos of the two missing signs and send them in with the acknowledgement letter.

My only concern is that in order to avoid ploughing into the car that had panic braked at the camera, I had to cross the un broken double white line. So although I don't have the photo yet, (I may well ask for it), I am 99% certain that it will show me on the wrong side of the road, and possibly not show the other vehicle. :-/

If the signage technicallity is legitimate, then am I leaving myself open to being shafted for all else?

TIA,

Al.
« Last Edit: 05 May 2011, 08:45:37 by 05omegav6 »
Logged

Lazydocker

  • Omega Queen
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Woodbridge, Suffolk
  • Posts: 18848
  • Constantly Bullied by a certain Admin
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #1 on: 05 May 2011, 08:48:24 »

Personally, as you have admitted you were speeding, I'd just take the penalty ;) Any chance of a speed awareness course?
Logged
Whatever it is... I didn't do it

05omegav6

  • Guest
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #2 on: 05 May 2011, 08:55:32 »

Not sure if that's an option as it's outside the 10%+2 :-/

There are two hopes, and Bob is dead. :-X

There is a school of thought relating to tanker drivers: better to have a shunt, than roll the truck avoiding one... at least then the ejit who (helped) create(d) the situation would still be around when everyone turns up.. ::)
Logged

Dishevelled Den

  • Omega Queen
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12545
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #3 on: 05 May 2011, 09:19:17 »

I would also be careful in what you say in writing - should you decide to appeal the Notice. 

Consider this first however, in addition to admitting driving at excess speed to the posted limit (as LD says) you may also offer an excuse for your car being on the wrong side of a solid white line.

This could amount to a admission of driving without due care and attention as you were driving at such a speed and positioned in such a way that you got 'baited' into taking this avoiding action.

There can be grounds for appeal in many circumstances but (in short, and in my view) you may have to expose more of your ass than necessary, should you decide to appeal this one.
Logged

unlucky alf

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • worksop, notts
  • Posts: 2394
  • this is some MOT advisory list!.
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #4 on: 05 May 2011, 10:04:31 »

Where did you get the info that the scamera may be faulty?, also when was the last time the thing was calibrated?, im not sure but i think you can request a copy of the calibration certificate but dont quote me on that. :-/ :-/
Logged

hotel21

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • The Kingdom of Fife
  • Posts: 13021
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #5 on: 05 May 2011, 10:58:39 »

If you feel the need to contend the matter, you need to act quickly.

NIP must be served within 14 days of the offence.  Check the postmark of the envelope against date of alleged offence.  If its more than 14 days respond with a letter advising the camera partnership of their error and await a reply.

If its within 14 days (and thats postmark remember, not the day it dropped through your letterbox) proceedings are deemed commenced.

As to the speed regulatory signs being missing or covered up by vegetation?  Worth a shot but, in all honesty, doubt it may proceed.  If its a one horse village with one road in/out then might just work.  If a larger town with several routes in/out?  Doubt it.

Faulty camera?  Pub talk, or based on fact?  If it was known to be faulty by the Camera Partnership, why send out the NIP's?  Again, worth a try but dont hold your breath.

Overall, I think the last line of your initial post kinda sums it up.

Quote
If the signage technicallity is legitimate, then am I leaving myself open to being shafted for all else?

If you are contesting the matter, would suggest not returning the NIP - yet - simply aknowledge its receipt and enclose your reply on whichever point floats your boat.

Take care to ensure that you are in a position to return the completed NIP within required timescales (normally outlined upon it) otherwise the matter may well be escalated.

Ultimately, irrespective of the reasons you perceive as mitigating circumstances, it appears that you overtook on solid whites, at excess of the speed limit, because you were unable to stop in time to prevent yourself going up the harris of the car in front - which indicates you and he were perhaps playing tig and you were too close to react to their brake testing you.....
Logged

TheBoy

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Brackley, Northants
  • Posts: 105805
  • I Like Lockdown
    • Whatever Starts
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #6 on: 05 May 2011, 11:33:55 »

Quote
Ultimately, irrespective of the reasons you perceive as mitigating circumstances, it appears that you overtook on solid whites, at excess of the speed limit, because you were unable to stop in time to prevent yourself going up the harris of the car in front - which indicates you and he were perhaps playing tig and you were too close to react to their brake testing you.....
I think thats the key point here... ...you need good reasons to have crossed the line, overtaking, breaking the speed limit.  I fear that you felt you were being baited will not hold up in this situation, with the judge (as it would go to court) deeming you should have followed the car at a safe distance until safe to pass
Logged
Grumpy old man

Kevin Wood

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Alton, Hampshire
  • Posts: 36262
    • Jaguar XE 25t, Westfield
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #7 on: 05 May 2011, 12:50:39 »

It might have been worth a punt if you were a few MPH over the limit, the road was clear, and you could reasonably argue that you were driving according to the conditions and weren't aware of the limit where the signage issues were a mitigating factor.

As it is, you risk stirring up a hornet's nest if evidence emerges of you overtaking on a double white line, etc. As others have said, I'd take the rap and not do anything that might trigger more detailed investigation of the photos from the camera if I were you. :-/

Kevin
Logged
Tech2 services currently available. See TheBoy's price list: http://theboy.omegaowners.com/

JamesV6CDX

  • Omega Queen
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gloucestershire/Buckinghamshire
  • Posts: 16539
    • Omega 3.2 Retail MV6 LPG
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #8 on: 05 May 2011, 13:09:29 »

I cannot offer you any advise on what you should do, however you do need to consider, as said by others, that if you start requesting the evidence, which then shows further offences, you would shoot yourself in the foot and leave yourself open to being reported for further offences.

The car braking in front, would be unlikely to be considered any defence, as the prosecution would simply argue you didn't leave enough distance to stop safely (and may argue you committed further offences on this basis)

48 in a 40? If that were me, I'd take it on the chin, and would promptly write a very polite back to the camera partnership, stating you accept you were 8mph over the limit, and asking if you can be considered for a speed awareness course, to avoid the points.

But, it's your decision  :y

Edited to add - just seen your username - indicates you're a taxi driver? If so, were you driving a car on taxi plates at the time?

Just thinking if that is also known, they may well also argue the fact that as a professional driver, you should be more in control.

Reality is, 3 points won't make a huge difference, if your license is otherwise clean - just be good for the next 3 years  ;D

« Last Edit: 05 May 2011, 13:17:41 by JamesV6CDX »
Logged

tigers_gonads

  • Omega Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Kinston Upon Hull
  • Posts: 8592
  • Driving a Honda CR-V which doesn't smell of pee
    • Honda CR-V
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #9 on: 05 May 2011, 13:34:47 »

I think in this case, the best thing to do is take the corse / points on the chin 

If you try and dodge this one, you will end up in more sh*t  :y
Logged

2woody

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Northumberland
  • Posts: 2374
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #10 on: 05 May 2011, 13:41:00 »

from what you told me, you joined the road via the access which didn't have a speed limit sign, so how could you have known what the limit was ?
Logged

hotel21

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • The Kingdom of Fife
  • Posts: 13021
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #11 on: 05 May 2011, 13:51:22 »

Quote
from what you told me, you joined the road via the access which didn't have a speed limit sign, so how could you have known what the limit was ?
Fair point and sounds like some facts are perhaps missing from the original post?

To answer your query though, if you stepped out an aircraft/train in a town centre and jumped into a hire car, how would you know the speed limit, if you did not pass any signs?


Logged

Andy B

  • Get A Life!!
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Bury Lancs
  • Posts: 39432
    • ML350 TDM SmartRoadster
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #12 on: 05 May 2011, 15:13:07 »

Although it doesn't get Al off the hook, double white lines don't actually mean 'no overtaking'. Rule 129 http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070306  ;)
« Last Edit: 05 May 2011, 19:34:02 by Andy_B »
Logged

hotel21

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • The Kingdom of Fife
  • Posts: 13021
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #13 on: 05 May 2011, 15:28:10 »

Quote
Although it doesn't get Tony off the hook, double white lines don't actually mean 'no overtaking'. Rule 129 http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070306  ;)

Guess that you would need to prove that the car on the inside was either stationary or road maintenance vehicle at less than 10 mph...

Quote
129
Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.

my highlight.  :)

Logged

TheBoy

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Brackley, Northants
  • Posts: 105805
  • I Like Lockdown
    • Whatever Starts
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #14 on: 05 May 2011, 15:29:14 »

Quote
Quote
from what you told me, you joined the road via the access which didn't have a speed limit sign, so how could you have known what the limit was ?
Fair point and sounds like some facts are perhaps missing from the original post?

To answer your query though, if you stepped out an aircraft/train in a town centre and jumped into a hire car, how would you know the speed limit, if you did not pass any signs?


Street lights in urban areas mean 30mph, else has to have signage every 250 (?) yards, else its NSL ?
Logged
Grumpy old man

hotel21

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • The Kingdom of Fife
  • Posts: 13021
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #15 on: 05 May 2011, 15:33:42 »

Quote
Street lights in urban areas mean 30mph, else has to have signage every 250 (?) yards, else its NSL ?


Pretty much...

Highway Code again, for simplicity.
Quote
124
You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and for your vehicle (see the table above). The presence of street lights generally means that there is a 30 mph (48 km/h) speed limit unless otherwise specified.

[Law RTRA sects 81, 86, 89 & sch 6]
again, my highlight.   :y
Logged

Kevin Wood

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Alton, Hampshire
  • Posts: 36262
    • Jaguar XE 25t, Westfield
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #16 on: 05 May 2011, 16:04:49 »

Quote
Quote
Although it doesn't get Tony off the hook, double white lines don't actually mean 'no overtaking'. Rule 129 http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070306  ;)

Guess that you would need to prove that the car on the inside was either stationary or road maintenance vehicle at less than 10 mph...


.. and, that being the case, why you considered it safe to pass it at 48MPH. :o
Logged
Tech2 services currently available. See TheBoy's price list: http://theboy.omegaowners.com/

Dishevelled Den

  • Omega Queen
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12545
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #17 on: 05 May 2011, 16:35:33 »

In addition to the above, logic dictates that the speed limit applying to the public road being driven on (of which the driver is obliged to be aware) must also apply to any public road leading from this, unless otherwise indicated.

Un-adopted, unmade or private roads can provide a complicating factor - but it can quite reasonably argued that any driver should be aware of the speed limit on the public road he/she joins, from any of those places, as it is more than reasonable to expect that he/she used the public road to access those places in the first instance and, therefore, must have been aware of any limit (if not, I would suggest there may be a case to be answered for driving without due care and attention if such an admission was made).


« Last Edit: 05 May 2011, 16:49:39 by Zulu77 »
Logged

Banjax

  • Omega Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Perth
  • Posts: 5510
  • We're just a virus with shoes
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #18 on: 05 May 2011, 16:59:11 »

just pay up and take it on the chin - you were going too fast to adequately slow down behind the hazard, you overtook on a dangerous stretch of road (hence the double white lines) swallow the medicine and move on.

and i've been done speeding - its always stupid, i got a parking ticket the other day returning a video too £30 because i was too lazy/tight to park across the road in a pay and display  :(
Logged
50 bucks!?! For 50 bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow!!

Andy B

  • Get A Life!!
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Bury Lancs
  • Posts: 39432
    • ML350 TDM SmartRoadster
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #19 on: 05 May 2011, 19:37:01 »

Quote
.....
my highlight.  :)


I know, I read it  ;) , but I also knew what I was posting  :y. My point was that people think that double white lines automatically mean ....... 'no overtaking'. In effect it does, but that's not what duble white lines mean.  :y
Logged

hotel21

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • The Kingdom of Fife
  • Posts: 13021
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #20 on: 05 May 2011, 20:11:42 »

Quote
Quote
.....
my highlight.  :)


I know, I read it  ;) , but I also knew what I was posting  :y. My point was that people think that double white lines automatically mean ....... 'no overtaking'. In effect it does, but that's not what duble white lines mean.  :y

Didn't doubt what you read and correctly understood, however your post was sparse on detail and the link you quoted gave an error page....   :y 
Logged

Turk

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Llanelli, Wales
  • Posts: 4029
    • 2.5td, H-D XL1200
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #21 on: 05 May 2011, 20:40:26 »

 :-?  Accelerating to avoid ploughing into a car that has 'panic braked' ?

As for the photo not showing the other vehicle, most show both sides of the road, and they'll probably be able to ascertain the other vehicles speed.
Logged
Only a biker truly understands why a dog sticks it's head out of the window of a moving car.

mrgreen

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Salzburg/austria
  • Posts: 891
    • 2000 2.2 petrol estate
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #22 on: 05 May 2011, 20:53:28 »

sorry to say over the solids you have no chance take it on the chin and remember next time not to follow so close ;D (runs for cover)
Logged
Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear.

Andy B

  • Get A Life!!
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Bury Lancs
  • Posts: 39432
    • ML350 TDM SmartRoadster
    • View Profile
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #23 on: 05 May 2011, 21:05:33 »

Quote
Quote
Quote
.....
my highlight.  :)


I know, I read it  ;) , but I also knew what I was posting  :y. My point was that people think that double white lines automatically mean ....... 'no overtaking'. In effect it does, but that's not what duble white lines mean.  :y

Didn't doubt what you read and correctly understood, however your post was sparse on detail and the link you quoted gave an error page....   :y 

I was rushed ................ supposed to be working  ::) ::) ::) ::)
Logged

05omegav6

  • Guest
Re: one for the (ex)boys in blue...
« Reply #24 on: 05 May 2011, 22:29:04 »

Right. All your comments are valid and quite correct. One for the chin me thinks. :-[ Ta very much :y.
Nip is on its way back all signed and correctly filled in. :y
In no particular order:

1. The road is a fast A road, some twisties, some straights, some flowing double bends.
2. The camera sits about 1/3 of the way along a 500yd straight down hill stretch.
3. The camera distance marks coincide with the start of the double white lines.
4. That stretch of road is through a small hamlet, perhaps 15 houses and a hotel.
5. I was on way to pick up at the hotel, which is 100yds past the camera.
6. The car that I was following, I might have been behind for 5 miles, it might have been doing approx 20 mph when I couldn't pass it and up to 70 when I could have. As we approached the camera site, they may have braked hard from 30. I might have got pqssed off and gone round them, then turned right. Common sense would have suggested  ignoring them and following at a distance, human nature over ruled common sense and here we are...
7. The momentum of a two ton car, coupled with a reasonably steep hill did me no favours.
8. The missing sign is at the other end of the site, all the repeaters are present and correct.
9. Using the highway code distances as a guide could I should I have been able to slow enough to make the right turn from that speed? Rhetorical and hypothetical question that needs no answer.

Long and short of it, there's a fixed penalty with, quite rightly, my name on it. :-[ :-X[

Quote
sorry to say over the solids you have no chance take it on the chin and remember next time not to follow so close  (runs for cover)
Cover not needed.

Lesson being pay enough attention to what is going on around you, whilst not actually getting caught up in it.

 :y

Logged
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.037 seconds with 18 queries.