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Author Topic: Wishbones  (Read 18344 times)

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razzo

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #30 on: 03 November 2013, 18:57:31 »

Managed to replace the wishbones with vx rear bushes this time, was not impressed with the weld around the ring on the old wishbones as it appears its only tacked in 2 places



& the crack started just where the weld finished. Cracks also started to appear on the other wishbone, again where the weld finished



so all in all i think the rear poly bush has hastened the demise of a crap quality wishbone, don't know if the weld was continuous it would have been a different story but you live & learn
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chrisgixer

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #31 on: 03 November 2013, 21:00:44 »

Thanks for posting Razzo.
That last pic also shows where the bush is rubbing on the top of the subframe, and presumably the same is true on the reverse/under side too. In that the wishbone is deforming the bush to that extent. Something that is also the case on Als bushes as well. Although iirc his have a softer compound yellow poly sandwiching black hrad poly in the centre.

It's also clear that the rearward bush must be a ball joint based design in order to maintain the vertical pivot point, AND allow it to pivot without interference from the subframe.

Looking at ball joints of any sort on the market, or indeed any ball joint that Is not rubber/glued together in effect, I wonder do you see a way to modify or improve things to allow full range of movement, give clearance from the subframe, and control the pivot pint centre, without modifying the subframe to allow clearance and not have the ball joint pop out? As has happened on some front wheel drive vertical poly bushes.

It's a big ask, by the looks.
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chrisgixer

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #32 on: 03 November 2013, 21:23:14 »

Here's some failed attempts of mine. Btw... :)

The metal parts are from failed oe bushes.

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biggriffin

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #33 on: 03 November 2013, 21:42:37 »

The problem you are having is,movement or not.
the reason the wish bone has cracked is lack of movement,the up right bush is not allowing the bone to move enough so it cracks at weakest point,if you put std bushes in the front and poly in the rear it shouldn't crack and vice versa. And if you weld it all the way round it will either fracture elsewhere or place stress fracture's elsewhere on the chassis.

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chrisgixer

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #34 on: 03 November 2013, 21:49:58 »

Hence it needs to ball joint based. :)

...IMO anyway.

Wonder should we start another thread. :-[  As Razzo is after stronger metal work I guess.
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05omegav6

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #35 on: 03 November 2013, 23:21:14 »

Right gloves off, no holds barred....

The bushes I chose are the exact diameter and overall height of tbe GM originals, they press in minimun of fuss...

My first attempt was...

http://www.powerflex.co.uk/road-series/product-details/Front+Outer+Track+Control+Arm+Bush/997.html

These were fitted intact, but proved quite soft around the edges, with minimal control. 1500 miles experience.

Second attempt was a hybrid of theses...

http://www.powerflex.co.uk/black-series/product-details/Front+Outer+Track+Control+Arm+Bush/8537.html

With a twist... the 'flange' of the standard yellow bush was used, with the core of the Black bush... much better control, almost perfect behaviour when pressing on ragging the car, but a bit 'ifbutmaybe' in general driving, like a stock bush at 75-80%  :-\

Next step is to fit the same 'Black' bushes.

But I have a couple of modifications to consider following Chris's comments in April and Razzos latest issues ::)

Fit the Black bushes, but sliced in half so the 'flanges' can move relative to the centre bush, reducing the rigidity slightly, but allowing some slip whilst supporting the arm vertically. So hopefully this will be the final solution, along with ensuring that the weld around the bush support is continuous and both sides so that the arm itself doesn't flex so much.

This will always be a compromise, the ideal being to get more than 100k from the rear bushes...

So far my stage two development has managed over 20k in 8 months, yet Razzos alternatives have done 45k in two years yet have killed the arms :-\ there is also evidence of 'polishing' of the subframe, but tbh that is to be expected given the shape/size of the flange.

Also, importantly, my arms still have FULL movement  :y
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chrisgixer

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #36 on: 04 November 2013, 05:22:43 »

Al's bushes. Black poly centre, with softer yellow from the originals sandwiching top and bottom. (Bottom not shown)

« Last Edit: 04 November 2013, 05:24:41 by chrisgixer »
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05omegav6

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #37 on: 04 November 2013, 11:26:16 »

Thanks Chris :y

The next step would be to replace the yellow with black, possibly with shorter springs so that the arm sits nearer level :-\
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elvin315

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #38 on: 18 January 2014, 14:30:14 »

Any news to report regarding Taxi Al's, Razzo's, or Chrisgixer's rear/vertical polybushes? I'm a Catera owner in the USA and have already installed the available Powerflex bushes (control arm & stabilizer) and want to complete the front end upgrade with poly rear/verts. I have Koni Sport adjustable struts installed and GTO/Monaro front brake calipers on her but the OEM GM bush is a pimple on the whole set-up. I have a set of rear GTO/Monaro eccentric polybushes with adjustable camber waiting to go on but would like to finish the front end first. No one over here is doing anything to improve the Catera over here as far as the suspension is concerned so I turn to you Omega owners. Thanks for listening.

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TheBoy

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #39 on: 18 January 2014, 14:38:19 »

I think Ex Taxi Al has done some further experiments, with a bit more success...
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chrisgixer

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #40 on: 18 January 2014, 15:10:49 »

Hi Elvin.

 First off, don't fit the eccentric rear poly bushes to an omega. They are for Carlton models or cars that don't have the rear track rod adjusters fitted. The track rod on omega relies on the softer rubber bushes to allow the track rid to pull the camber/toe over. If poly is fitted there is a very real chance the rear suspension will lock up.


Front wishbone rearward vertical bush, there are no official parts available to replace it. The only options are oe replacement items made of rubber from the likes of Gm, Lemforderor and Meyle who do a "heavy duty" version :-\

Speaking of Meyle, I have spent a good while looking around for a suitable poly ball joint cross referenced with the sizes given on the Meyle web site for omega;
Meyle rear wishbone bush
614 035 0010
Height 46
Inner diameter 14
Outer diameter 49

Sadly no other vehicle I have found has a remotely similar sized bush. Much less one that is likely to have a poly version. Closest appears to be Corser C, but that has a 12mm inner diameter bolt hole, with no room to machine it out. Plus the outside diameter us way too big anyway. ...I wouldn't use a smaller bolt on a car this size either.

So that leaves some diy versions by members here.
These consist of solid lumps of Polly. While initial reports seem good, the sad fact is they are not a ball joint design, which is what the oe design is essentially, as it has to cope with an amount of yaw in the original design.
Basically the solid lump design stresses the metal work around the the bush, to the point that there has been case where the wishbone snapped.

Taxi Al has a similar design of black poly roll bar bushes from a ford Sierra cosworth machined to fit and sandwhiched end top and bottom.

I think Al would agree its not something that can be recommended to others with easy fit long term use in mind, due to stress in the metalwork, not to mention the restrictive movement making fitting the strut a challenge. Its a two man job.


But I'm sure he'll be along to comment. :)




The key to finding the front polys, was to cross reference the oe bush with other makes, and see if their is poly version for that vehicle. In the case of power flex they made a poly version for a BMW model of the same dimensions, m5 e42 iirc but I could be wrong. Hence they where then able to sell a version for the omega.
 Sadly powerflex don't see enough sales in the omega to warrant a production run just yet. We are way down the list of profit making vehicles, as was found when we asked them to make a rear poly donut for us. They took measurements, but sales team dictate production runs and there's nothing for us yet.
 However Taxi Al did find a poly rear donut by Pedders for the monaro that fits. So we don't need power flex now anyway. ;)

My point is, though, sadly, that non of the oe bush makers web sites show an oe bush that cross references with any other vehicle with the same omega dimensions above, that I can see.

If you see one, or find one that fits, please god let us know. :)
« Last Edit: 18 January 2014, 15:15:01 by chrisgixer »
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05omegav6

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #41 on: 18 January 2014, 18:56:57 »

Hi Elvin :y

The Pedders kit you need for the rear subframe is EP1145, Rear end pack Monaro/GTO Harrop Diff Cover.

As for the front wishbone vertical bush, well...

Al's bushes. Black poly centre, with softer yellow from the originals sandwiching top and bottom. (Bottom not shown)



Theses are the bushes I have used...

http://www.powerflex.co.uk/black-series/product-details/Front+Outer+Track+Control+Arm+Bush/8541.html

As you can see, they come as a pair of halves. Each half is sliced horizontally, as per the picture above, this allows some lateral slippage, something other bushes lack. Ignore the yellow poly in Chris's picture, black looks the same but is infinitely firmer, but it shows the arrangement nicely. The bush dimensions are identical to the original OE bush... the poly is the same height, and the core that sits in the arm is the same diameter, and is an interference fit rather sloppy :y

The Sierra sold in the US briefly as either the Merkaur XR4i or (I think)as the Taurus XR4, so if you have a local Powerflex stockist...

The stiffness of the arm with these bushes is a concern, particularly since Razzo broke a wishbone mounting a kerb :-\ In the name of balance, I have found cracks on a cheapy wishbone what I had rebushed with genuine GM/VX, so cracking isn't necessarily a direct result of fitting polys. Some wishbones are clearly better made than others, unfortunately there is no way of telling until you open the packaging.

This information is currently just that, information. What I have done is purely experimental and cannot be recommended yet. But first impressions are encouraging,  the steering and brakes feel more connected, and the ride is firmer, but not too crashy, even with 18"s fitted. My car has done just over 1500 miles since fitting the black flanges two weeks ago, and is going in for four tyres on Monday, followed by a Geometry set up on Tuesday, so I shall take several pictures and have a good look around the vertical bush area for signs of bending/cracking...

I shall report back on Tuesday :y
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05omegav6

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #42 on: 21 January 2014, 12:26:44 »

As promised...

Off side from rear/below


Off side from in front/above


Near side from rear/above


Near side from below/front


No evidence of stress on either arm so far :-\ Driving report to follow...
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05omegav6

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #43 on: 22 January 2014, 00:04:05 »

Hundred miles later and feels like a different car 8) diff mounts and rear shocks need doing, but might be a winner... Will see how the bushes perform over the next few thousand miles, but have been in place for 10 months... Obviously main concern is the stress on the wishbones, but picks look promising in that regard given Razzos failed in 8 months :-\
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chrisgixer

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Re: Wishbones
« Reply #44 on: 22 January 2014, 00:38:47 »

Yep, had a spin in alas car today. Drove ok, once the tyre pressures where dropped to unloaded. Back end is loose, hopefully its the dif block torn causing that after some nump at a garage jacked on the dif.

Did I mention, don't jack on the dif.
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