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[alan2450]

I am new to rear wheel drive cars, however i have already given myself a number of little scares in the wet   ,  there is no TC.

With the winter on the way I would like any tips that you experienced "Rear wheel drive" drivers have in order to reduce the chance of a mishap.

I am surprised at how easy it is for the backend to break away and how easy it is for the wheels to spin in the wet, not looking foward to the ice and snow  


Opps.....Sorry should have put this in "chat"  

[psnimv6]

you should try it with another 90 - 100 hp that is good fun but at least i have traction control + a lsd to help keep it under control

[tunnie]

it is easy... even my underpowered 2.2 i have had sideways in the wet. Although some will say its crap tyres!!


even at 30/40mph on wet roundabouts it can get 'fun'

you have to be light on the throttle, a RWD car is much more controllable. Light pressure on the gas is the secret.

Someone far more experianced than me shall be along soon....

[holey head]

put your foot to the floor in corners!!!!!! and watch your ares end at side of you!!! lol

[TheBoy]

it is easy... even my underpowered 2.2 i have had sideways in the wet. Although some will say its crap tyres!!


even at 30/40mph on wet roundabouts it can get 'fun'

you have to be light on the throttle, a RWD car is much more controllable. Light pressure on the gas is the secret.

Someone far more experianced than me shall be along soon....

Yes, easy to get your 2.2 sideways in the dry as well, due to 'durable' tyres.


In the nice, easy to get it facing the wrong way.  High gear, and delicate clutch control is the key.

[IrmscherKris]

High gear, and delicate clutch control is the key.

Short, sweet and very precise!
 
If you drive hard on a day to day basis, get your wheel alignment set up for it - you will eat tyres with this done though.
The more you drive it in different conditions the better you will know it's boundary's...

 

[Tony H]

Decent tyres can make a lot of difference especially in the wet. I bought my car with four brand new budget tyres already fitted, they where o.k in the dry but on wet roads , I changed the tyres and now its much improved. The main thing to remember when navigating bends is when to ease off the gas and at what point you can pres the "go" pedal on the exit of a bend, people can explain the theory but there no substitute to practice and experience to get the feel of your own car. If you can find somewhere safe to practice this will give you an idea of the limits of the car and will hopefully benefit your ability to drive within the car,and your limits on the road.

[Kevin Wood]

I'm no expert by any means but RWD cars can bite the unwary to a greater extent than FWD cars, but are much more satisfying to drive once you've had a little practice, IMHO.

The main problem is oversteer, which is unlikely to happen in a FWD car unless you really try to provoke it, simply because the rear wheels aren't doing a lot in terms of the traction that they must deliver. In a FWD car, you have both the majority of the cornering forces and all the power delivery through the front wheels. Overcook it on a roundabout or while turning and the front will just drift a little wide. The natural reactions of coming off the power and turning into the bend will sort the problem out every time.

In a RWD car the rear wheels have the power to deliver and not a lot of weight over them so a little too much power can provoke the rear wheels to give before the fronts. This results in oversteer as the rear end of the car steps out. This requires turning OUT of the bend and reducing power to correct and this is a less natural reaction. Coming off the power too quickly can cause the slide to continue as well, so smoothness is a key factor.

If you haven't ever had a session on a skid pan I can recommend it as a good way to learn the required reactions in safety and at low speeds, where eveything happens at a pace at which you can take it all in. Just make sure you'll be in a RWD car!

Keeping your tryes in good condition and correctly inflated is also a key factor, and it's probably a good idea to keep the best tyres at the rear of the car by rotating them as necessary, especially in the winter months.

Thinking a little further ahead is also key. Avoid having to unsettle the car once you're in a bend by adjusting your speed in good time before you have to turn. Once you're in the bend if you feel you can put some more power on do so smoothly and try to feel for the "balance" of the car. A difficult thing to describe but you'll get to recognise a level of throttle input that "feels right". Don't be tempted to plonk your foot straight down or to overstep the point where the car feels right. As you straighten up out of a bend you can add power to maintain this balance.

Kevin

[Jay w]

in the Omegas defence they are a well balanced car, to get them to break out when moving at speed does take some doing.

I can get mine to step out when coming out of a junction or off a roundabout, most of the time it is me driving like a hooley....

Decent tyres will make a huge difference in the way the car handles, some of the cheaper brands will allow the car to break out easily......

Broocie and i were chatting about this at the nearly wales meeting, there is a lot of pleasure to be gained from getting the car to go through a series of corners in a controlled and balanced manner......and you dont have to be breaking the speed limit

The point that Kevin made regarding a skid pan session is good advice, i did one years ago, its strange how you never forget the advise that an expert gives you.....makes driving in the snow a lot of fun  

[Kevin Wood]

i did one years ago, its strange how you never forget the advise that an expert gives you..

It was an interesting experience. I took my Dad along too. He's had a couple of minor incidents where he'd locked up the wheels and slid into things he could possibly have avoided with a bit of cadence braking. When we got to the cadence braking bit where the bloke jumps out in front of you and you have to apply the brakes but still maintain control to steer round him after a couple of attempts I was avoiding him every time and missing the traffic cones, etc. My Dad nearly ran the bloke over and whatever the guy said he simply couldn't bring himself to come off the brakes and steer.

I'm somewhat relieved that he drives a car with ABS these days.

Kevin

[matt]

Not sure I agree they can bite more than FWD - but they certainly bite differently...  

Having had bikes and mainly rear wheel drive cars, I have to say I *much* prefer RWD, and would never want another FWD.

With FWD you have power or steering, rarely both  

Where a FWD tends to straighten when you apply power in the bend, a RWD oversteers - ie the power helps you round the corner.  If you power smoothly round the bend, you'll find it a more satisfying drive.

The Omega is a big barge of a thing, but handles very well for its size, with good balance, so it's actually takes a bit of effort to get it to break... but once it's started to break there's a lot of momentum helping it along.  So gentle increase in the throttle through the bend, and gentle lifts - heavy boots will encourage it to break.  As you get into the habit of backing off and straightening up the steering, you'll find it fairly easy to control.

Once you realise where the break is, and when it's coming you'll start hanging the back end out for a laugh on roundabouts  

If you're trying for it not to happen at all, be a little more gentle with clutch and throttle  

A skid pan day, or a track training day apart from being a brilliant laugh would give you a much better idea of where the limits and a safe place to practice.

You should try a TVR, or 911 though - half the weight and three times the power  

[amigov6]

 :)With a rwd you can pretty much steer by feathering the throttle without going into a full drift. Bieng 40 something i learned my licks in 60's/70's Fords,Morris,Hillmans etc some of which were on crossply tyres so you could get the back end out at low speeds even in the dry.
    You tend to start out over correcting which results in "snaking" but gradually you improve.
    Rally drivers in rwd escorts etc when setting up for a right hand bend would throw the wheel left, then right to induce a drift then sail round the right hand bend steering on the throttle but steering slightly to the left. Sounds odd but it works when you get it right.
      If you're rich i recommend a MK2 RS2000 if not an old Chevette will teach you the basics!!!!!  [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

[Kevin Wood]

Mate of mine had an old 1300 Chevette when we were at school and the back end could stepped out at will. It's much harder in an Omega with 4 times as much power.

Matt is right about the Omega being a bit of a big barge for those sort of antics though. That and relatively soft suspension make it a bit of a handful to gather up so the emphasis must be on avoiding a slide.

Add a Westfield to the list of cars to try

Kevin

[Paul M]

I'd definitely get some decent tyres on there if you don't already. Mine was an absolute pig in the wet when I bought it, I often exited roundabouts sideways when I was doing my utmost to drive sensibly all thanks to some really crappy kwik-fit style budget tyres fitted by the previous owner. Binned them with more than half the tread remaining, and since fitting Michelin Pilots the car is much more predictable, I can still get it sideways but only when I actually want it to be.

The main problem is oversteer, which is unlikely to happen in a FWD car unless you really try to provoke it, simply because the rear wheels aren't doing a lot in terms of the traction that they must deliver. In a FWD car, you have both the majority of the cornering forces and all the power delivery through the front wheels. Overcook it on a roundabout or while turning and the front will just drift a little wide. The natural reactions of coming off the power and turning into the bend will sort the problem out every time.

I'm sure you're well aware of this, but the instinctive reactions of lifting off and steering into a slide are probably the cause of most smashes by Michael Schumacher wannabes in their souped-up FWD toys with rock-hard suspension. No they don't power oversteer, but they sure as hell lift-off oversteer.

[Marks DTM Calib]

The most important thing to do in a rear wheel drive if the rear steps out is to NOT lift fully off the throttle because you get engine breaking and it can be the equivalent of pulling the hand brake!

Its interesting that myself and some others refer to fuel as traction control juice because that extra 60-70Kg of wight over the rear wheels balances things up well.

As for stepping the rear out, the 2.2Dti (280Nm at 1600-2500rpm) has MORE peek torque than the 3.0 petrol (270Nm at 3400rpm ) but, much lower in the revs so its no surprise (remember its torque that spins wheels and NOT horse power)