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[Shackeng]

Was watching this last night as they changed a broken rail. A gang arrived to do the urgently required work and did not have the correct sized spanner to undo the nuts holding the railkeeper in place!!!!!
Is it any wonder our rail network is in chaos.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Was watching this last night as they changed a broken rail. A gang arrived to do the urgently required work and did not have the correct sized spanner to undo the nuts holding the railkeeper in place!!!!!
Is it any wonder our rail network is in chaos.

Yes, this documentary series which I have religiously watched from the start, is not good PR for GWR, or the railways generally, with constant crisis portrayed (well that does make a good story for the journalists making the programme!!) and hundreds of passengers being mucked around!

Once all the current railway upgrade investment has been made hopefully it will be different, but running a railway which involves complex machines, electrics, and electronics, apart from suicidal people, is never going to be easy.

To not have the right bit for your socket set for a job they knew they were doing can have no excuse!!

[dave the builder]

It's always the one tool you left on the bench or lent to Bob 3 weeks ago "i'll give it you strait back honest" 
thermite cracks most bolts loose pretty quick 
not been on a train in 25 years
I'm sure after brexit all trains will be sorted 
Paddington the bear 1958 ,so 70 years old ,not 24 

[Lizzie Zoom]

It's always the one tool you left on the bench or lent to Bob 3 weeks ago "i'll give it you strait back honest"
thermite cracks most bolts loose pretty quick 
not been on a train in 25 years
I'm sure after brexit all trains will be sorted 
Paddington the bear 1958 ,so 70 years old ,not 24 

    Funny you should say that Dave, as the Team leader of the track gang had to ring a mate elsewhere to borrow the missing socket.  It was just like someone working on a car and ringing a friend to provide the right tool

[Shackeng]

It would have been funny if the economic cost of such a careless approach to work was not potentially so enormous.

[Varche]

Sounds like Spain.

Tradesmen visiting your house never have rhe right tools. The Electrician that turned up to renew our overhead supply frompoleto house used olive oil fromhis lunch and arock to freem the tensioner. Didnt even have a hammer in his tool kit.

There was a bit on Uk tv this morning about SWR whete people had spent 15 hours on a broken down train.!

[Lizzie Zoom]

Sounds like Spain.

Tradesmen visiting your house never have rhe right tools. The Electrician that turned up to renew our overhead supply frompoleto house used olive oil fromhis lunch and arock to freem the tensioner. Didnt even have a hammer in his tool kit.

There was a bit on Uk tv this morning about SWR whete people had spent 15 hours on a broken down train.!

That was probably about the story about a stranded train during the "Beast from the East" saga.  There is always something that brings trains to a halt in the UK. 

[Lizzie Zoom]

It would have been funny if the economic cost of such a careless approach to work was not potentially so enormous.

And that is the thing about running a railway.  Everything done wrong, or a passenger doing something silly, has potentially an enormous cost element.

There again every road accident, or emergency road works, also cause thousands of pounds to be wasted especially when it happens on our motorways. 

All the time we rely on machines and the illogical human mind we will suffer such costs somewhere

[Varche]

It was but to a none expert on trains like myself, could they not have taken a diesel loco and pushed/pulled it to safety? I know there are "rules" but I would have been beyond despair on a train with no heat, light , food or water and toilets for fifteen hours  coupled with no advice from the train company as to what was happening (or not).

I did my time on Midlands cross country trains back in the eighties. Bloody horrible it was too. I remember for example being on the Birmingham train when it forgot to stop at Hinckley ( a regular occurrence) . It could not reverse half a mile due to the "rules". It took me a further 2 and a half hours from that point to get home along with hundreds of other commuters.   

[LC0112G]

It was but to a none expert on trains like myself, could they not have taken a diesel loco and pushed/pulled it to safety?

They did exactly that when a train I was on broke down between Sailsbury and Yeovil Junction. However, that was back in about 1986 in the days of good old BR, or Network Southeast.

AIUI these rescue locos, often called "Thunderbirds", don't exist anymore - or at least they aren't owned/run by the same company that owns/runs the passenger services, which are all private companies. The idea of a locomotive has gone - they are nearly all diesel or electric multiple units arranged in sets of 3/4 carrages. They aren't a loco with a 'rake' of  8/10/12 (unpowered) passenger coaches where you detach the loco and move it to the other end of the train and set off in the other direction at a terminus.

Thomas the tank engine is dead. There aren't spare locos available dotted all over the network that can be press-ganged into being used as Thunderbirds.

[Varche]

There you go then. Great business opportunity for such a loco! You just need a catchy name , an annual upfront fee per rescue loco, few standby drivers. Could be a money spinner for rail preservation trusts.

PS who runs and owns locos that pull freight trains.................?

[TheBoy]

Stop the subsidies on the Victorian shite. Its time we moved on.

I noticed from my trip to the Sunshine State, they don't have Railroads.

[Lizzie Zoom]

There you go then. Great business opportunity for such a loco! You just need a catchy name , an annual upfront fee per rescue loco, few standby drivers. Could be a money spinner for rail preservation trusts.

PS who runs and owns locos that pull freight trains.................?

The problem, or fact is, that modern classes of EMU are designed to work in sets and their electronic brains are now very difficult to connect to by a traditional, now outgoing, diesel locomotives.  It is hard to even slip an addition coach into a 3 or 4 car set, and that is why you regularly see two, or even three, EMU complete sets joined together drivers power car to drivers power car.

There couplings and general connections, like air brakes, can be different even between EMU types, and totally unsuitable for locomotive connection, being often at different heights to each other. 

As LCO112G correctly stated spare diesels are now not an option, with even the freight operators examples not compatible with most of the EMU's. In addition, as stated, those freight operators have nothing directly to do with either the passenger train operators or Netwoork Rail, so are not expected, or can afford, to hire their loco's out, and that would be very expensive.  Each loco journey costs a large fee to Network Rail, and for them to drop their freight duties to assist another rail company and accumulate huge mileage costs as they travel to help a stranded EMU, is just not viable from a commercial point of view, or desirable for profit hungry freight companies and their passenger company opposite firms.

As for steam locomotives being used as muted not that long ago that is a non-starter.  There are not enough of them, let alone those air brake equipped; there are all the H&S implications; the maintenance costs, would be enormous, if they are available in the part of the country where they are required, and there is still that compatibility issue with the EMU's!!!  There would also be the little issue of the Environment!

So the suggestion was either an April fools joke, or some kind of stupid suggestion by a journalist who knows nothing about railway operations. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/12/diesel-steam-trains-rail-electricity

No, the answer is to build and maintain the latest EMU's to a far higher standard so the chances of them breaking down is relagated to "rare".

[LC0112G]

I agree with Lizzie. For an 'rescue' loco system to be any use, it would probably have to be run by Network rail, as a kind of AA/RAC for the railways. It's just as likely that a freight train would break down and block the line as a passenger train. They would need to position locos around the network, with probably 50 or so miles between QRA sites. Given the size of the network, you'd need dozens if not hundreds of locos.  Add that to the 24 hour crewing requirements and the costs quickly balloon out of control. So instead of that, Network Rail just fine the operating company if their trains break down causing delays.

Another thing you'll often notice with the steam loco excursions is that there is often a diesel loco in the set either directly behind the steam loco, or on the other end. That's so that if the steam loco breaks down the diesel can continue push the whole lot out of the way. I doubt using steam locos as Thunderbirds would work - the steam loco would probably break down too making the situation worse.

Eurotunnel do have a number of diesel "Thunderbirds" to pull dead electric trains out of the channel tunnel. However, they only have to worry about 30 odd miles of track.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I agree with Lizzie. For an 'rescue' loco system to be any use, it would probably have to be run by Network rail, as a kind of AA/RAC for the railways. It's just as likely that a freight train would break down and block the line as a passenger train. They would need to position locos around the network, with probably 50 or so miles between QRA sites. Given the size of the network, you'd need dozens if not hundreds of locos.  Add that to the 24 hour crewing requirements and the costs quickly balloon out of control. So instead of that, Network Rail just fine the operating company if their trains break down causing delays.

Another thing you'll often notice with the steam loco excursions is that there is often a diesel loco in the set either directly behind the steam loco, or on the other end. That's so that if the steam loco breaks down the diesel can continue push the whole lot out of the way. I doubt using steam locos as Thunderbirds would work - the steam loco would probably break down too making the situation worse.



Eurotunnel do have a number of diesel "Thunderbirds" to pull dead electric trains out of the channel tunnel. However, they only have to worry about 30 odd miles of track.

..........and only the Eurostar EMU and Chunnel freight train loco's - therefore very limited number of classes -'to be compatible with

[Doctor Gollum]

Which neatly surmarises the crux of the issue 

[aaronjb]

No, the answer is to build and maintain the latest EMU's to a far higher standard so the chances of them breaking down is relagated to "rare".

Right. So we can neatly file that under "Never going to happen because profits" and move on. Next!

[Lizzie Zoom]

No, the answer is to build and maintain the latest EMU's to a far higher standard so the chances of them breaking down is relagated to "rare".

Right. So we can neatly file that under "Never going to happen because profits" and move on. Next!

Oh so negative!

No, actually the train companies are losing millions of pounds of potential profit due to extra fees imposed on them by Network Rail due to trains breaking down, compensation being paid to passengers for late trains, and the government fining train companies for poor performance (Southern paid £13.4 million in 2017 and no doubt will be again, along with Northern rail for 2018).

So it is actually in the interests of the rail companies PROFITS to invest in trains that are far more reliable and do not cost tyhem money in terms of operating fines, let alone running costs.    

We must not forget though that Network Rail, owned by us the people , has caused major late running, or no running problems, and has incurred millions of pounds penalties and fines.  In 2016 they paid the government £316 million in fines for poor performance, and to date they are paying hundreds of thousands of pounds in penalties to the train operators in penalties for failures to provide the pathway they should expect for their trains.

[Varche]

Well the back up loco could have been brought out today for its first airing. Overhead powerlines dragged down by a class 802 Hitachi on test.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Well the back up loco could have been brought out today for its first airing. Overhead powerlines dragged down by a class 802 Hitachi on test.

Yes, and it is so ironic that those overhead power lines, and the train being tested, are all part of the push to modernise the system. If the old 125's and only diesel locomotives were the only units running on the old GWR, and not the latest electric units, it would not have happened.  One step forward, two steps back eh!

[LC0112G]

Well the back up loco could have been brought out today for its first airing. Overhead powerlines dragged down by a class 802 Hitachi on test.

Most of the Western Region stock is still diesel, and those that aren't are bi-mode. Sounds like a case of Network Rail looking after their interests rather than the needs of the travelling public.

[Varche]

Ah well service enhancement , never mind the publics needs . In this case to get from A to B. 

[TheBoy]

No, the answer is to build and maintain the latest EMU's to a far higher standard so the chances of them breaking down is relagated to "rare".

Right. So we can neatly file that under "Never going to happen because profits" and move on. Next!

We'll have to subsidise it.

Think of the road improvements if all subsidies went there instead.

[Lizzie Zoom]

No, the answer is to build and maintain the latest EMU's to a far higher standard so the chances of them breaking down is relagated to "rare".

Right. So we can neatly file that under "Never going to happen because profits" and move on. Next!

We'll have to subsidise it.

Think of the road improvements if all subsidies went there instead.

So to build extra road space for even more cars and lorries to clog up, instead of creating additional rail space to operate faster trains to move even more thousands of people and tonnes of freight?

Creating that extra road space over the decades I have witnessed has just not worked, but with all the current transitional difficulties the railways are shifting even more passengers than ever before, most of whom do arrive on time or near enough.  Unlike driving from the south east to, say, The Lake District and maybe arriving some time after 11 hours of "parked" driving.

In any case, after reading what others think is going to happen soon to the private motor car, we will all be grateful for an advanced, high tech, joined up public transport system!

[Varche]

I wouldhazard a guess that travel from the South East , say Leeds Castle to say Coniston in Lake District would take longer than 11 hours by train.

[Nick W]

Spending billions on building more roads is a waste of money. We should repair the ones we have, and make them work better. That could involve redesigning junctions so that traffic flows properly, increasing the speed limits on dual carriageways and motorways, ensuring that by-passes have plenty of access etc etc.


It's 150 years too late for a joined up public transport system, we're stuck with the abortion that we have. High speed rail links in a country where the likely destinations are at most 150miles apart are never going to work, for both freight or passengers. The money should be spent to get a decent return, which means either improving inner city public transport, or just openly subsidising it by reducing the cost to the user. We do that for roads after all.


Finally, our usage of cars isn't sustainable. This will require a drastic change of circumstances for us to accept, and will likely be the least of the problems.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I wouldhazard a guess that travel from the South East , say Leeds Castle to say Coniston in Lake District would take longer than 11 hours by train.

Maybe it would, but you could sit back, relax, have cups of coffee instead of being "parked up" in miles of gradually, maybe, eventually, moving traffic.  Then there is the thought that in the future there will be HS lines all the way up taking very little time to get from Ashford to the North. I love my driving and am a dedicated motorist of 48 years, but I recognise that eventually the private car will die and, after hopefully a fully planned and funded transition over time,  the UK population around then will see a public,
fully intergrated transport system that takes you from front door to front door speedily and at a reasonable cost.

[Doctor Gollum]

All this talk of planning...

Plan ahead and travel over night or take a picnic

Correctly timed you can get from deepest Sussex to Gretna Green in about 7 hours and Wick in another 8 including a few decent stops

[TheBoy]

So to build extra road space for even more cars and lorries to clog up, instead of creating additional rail space to operate faster trains to move even more thousands of people and tonnes of freight?

Creating that extra road space over the decades I have witnessed has just not worked, but with all the current transitional difficulties the railways are shifting even more passengers than ever before, most of whom do arrive on time or near enough.  Unlike driving from the south east to, say, The Lake District and maybe arriving some time after 11 hours of "parked" driving.

In any case, after reading what others think is going to happen soon to the private motor car, we will all be grateful for an advanced, high tech, joined up public transport system!

Trains are now significantly slower - Brum to London used to be under 1h20m by 2 very different routes before railtrack decided HS2 would keep them in work. Trains were artificially slowed to make HS2's 55mins (going from nowhere useful to nowhere useful) seem worth the £28b-£50b (for phase 1) of taxpayers money, depending which set of figures from HS2 Ltd to chose to use.

Additionally, the Northern lakes are approx 3.5-4hrs from here, and Dover is 2-2.5hrs from here. Assuming you are my side of Dover, where does 11hrs come from?

And as it happens, 3yrs ago my mum came up on hols with us one the Kirkstone Pass.  Her first comment when I collected her from Windermere was that she should have driven...


We need to forget about dicking around with 18th century technology. Its shit.

[Lizzie Zoom]

So to build extra road space for even more cars and lorries to clog up, instead of creating additional rail space to operate faster trains to move even more thousands of people and tonnes of freight?

Creating that extra road space over the decades I have witnessed has just not worked, but with all the current transitional difficulties the railways are shifting even more passengers than ever before, most of whom do arrive on time or near enough.  Unlike driving from the south east to, say, The Lake District and maybe arriving some time after 11 hours of "parked" driving.

In any case, after reading what others think is going to happen soon to the private motor car, we will all be grateful for an advanced, high tech, joined up public transport system!

Trains are now significantly slower - Brum to London used to be under 1h20m by 2 very different routes before railtrack decided HS2 would keep them in work. Trains were artificially slowed to make HS2's 55mins (going from nowhere useful to nowhere useful) seem worth the £28b-£50b (for phase 1) of taxpayers money, depending which set of figures from HS2 Ltd to chose to use.

Additionally, the Northern lakes are approx 3.5-4hrs from here, and Dover is 2-2.5hrs from here. Assuming you are my side of Dover, where does 11hrs come from?

And as it happens, 3yrs ago my mum came up on hols with us one the Kirkstone Pass.  Her first comment when I collected her from Windermere was that she should have driven...


We need to forget about dicking around with 18th century technology. Its shit.

It came from travelling M20 with hold ups, M25 with nothing but stop and start from Clacketts Lane services all through to past M4 junction, then M1 road works, and even more on M6 with accidents (plural) around Birmingham right through to M62 junction, with being "parked up" most of the time, then heavy traffic all the way through to Keswick, until straight forward running to Lake area. 

Your 3.5 hours belongs 30 years in the past when I, travelling on business roughly averaging 100+mph could get from Bristol to the Whitley Bay Area in that time by setting off at  0330 hours.
Travelling to the Lakes, or to the North East now in 3.5 hours, without seriously breaking speed limits, having accidents, getting arrested or losing your licence / life during realistic day time driving periods, or being On Top Gear is, I suggest, just a fantasy. 

Even when using the M6 (Toll) around Birmingham you will be lucky to travel between the aforementioned places in under 5 hours with good going. The M25 section alone can cost 1.5 hours in lost time, let alone the dreaded M6.

As for "Victorian" transport (not "18th century") never forget the motor car was invented in that era! So, if I placed a bet on what form of transport will last until the end of the 21st century between the combustion engined vehicle or the train it must be the latter, but in a form most of the public now cannot predict.

[Viral_Jim]

I worked in London for around 18m and even there, unless you were going into zone 1, driving was always the best option.

Taking the lake District example, going to coniston, from (say) Surbiton takes 6hrs 40 on public transport minimum, vs 5h30 in the car.

Now, assuming you don't live at a station, and aren't travelling to just a station, you can add 20mins either end. Plus an extra 20mins at the start because if you don't get to the station on time the rip off merchants will charge you another £120 for a different ticket 

So I've got 2h 10 to sit in traffic before the train draws level. I've also got Aircon, set to my liking, a guaranteed comfy seat and I can listen to what I like on the radio rather than whatever noise pollution some inbred yob wants to put through the carriage. Oh and they want £115 plus bus/taxi fares to get you there. 

Taking such a journey once a month would pay for the fuel for those journeys plus insurance, tax and maintenance on my car. I can travel close to 1000 miles on what they want to charge.

Sorry, but if you have a car you'd have to be mentally ill to want to take a train anywhere in the UK other than the London underground.

[Doctor Gollum]

Plan your journey and travel when the roads are empty. Simples

I did my house to Wick in 16 hours, at an average of 60 mph with breaks.

Equally used to regularly get from New Forest to Solihull in two hours most Wednesday mornings... Coming back at lunch time was rarely more than 2:45...

[TheBoy]

LZ, I went to Penrith,via Windermere and Keswick, on a Friday afternoon a couple of months back. 5hrs, including stopping for sit down hot meal. Can’t do a train in that time.

That’s about as bad as it gets unless roads get closed. Remember rail lines get severely disrupted as well.

I type this on a delayed Chiltern train, running behind due to ongoing issues at Ealing (nought to do with Chiltern lines, which go nowhere near Ealing)

[Varche]

All this talk of planning...

Plan ahead and travel over night or take a picnic

Correctly timed you can get from deepest Sussex to Gretna Green in about 7 hours and Wick in another 8 including a few decent stops

Overnight travel?  50 years ago we used to travel from Scarborough to Birkenhead in the night. That was to avoid getting stuck behind wagons. There used tobe nothing on the roads at all in the night but you had to go through all towns and the traffic lights used to be seemingly stuck on red.

[Doctor Gollum]

Absolutely 

Left the house at about 10pm and stopped for breakfast at Lockerbie.

Used to regularly travel to/from the Norfolk Broads and rarely left before 10 pm in either direction. Always an easy 3 1/4 hours each way versus nearly 5 during the day.

Sustained speed would take a third off that, but it's also a fairly effective way to lose your licence 

About the only time I use the train is if I am planning on a proper drink or seven...

[Lizzie Zoom]

LZ, I went to Penrith,via Windermere and Keswick, on a Friday afternoon a couple of months back. 5hrs, including stopping for sit down hot meal. Can’t do a train in that time.

That’s about as bad as it gets unless roads get closed. Remember rail lines get severely disrupted as well.

I type this on a delayed Chiltern train, running behind due to ongoing issues at Ealing (nought to do with Chiltern lines, which go nowhere near Ealing)

So not 3.5 hours then TB

Obviously you CAN do long distances, say from South to North, in all kinds of times, all dependant on LUCK mainly, and I'm speaking as a million mile business driver who travelled across the country back in the 1970's-90's.  Even if I set off at 0300 hours in the morning, which I did on many occasions, it would not dictate what time I actually arrived say in the North East or North West; it was dependant on how many accidents, road works, or,very importantly, time of the year. 

I must be honest to admit my runs to the Lakes have always been in August, so the type of traffic i.e.the amount of Pikeys with caravans, that sometimes were on their sides blocking all lanes (that happened so many times going down to the South West I lost count) made a big difference.  So the times I quoted were the worst possible I know, but that is what happened at that point in time.  As I said to do that run in 3.5 hours is really pushing it and totally relies on luck.  No matter how fast you drive, as I well know, if you face miles of near stationery, or even stationery traffic, as has happened so many times to me in the past making my days very long, you cannot drive at anything but 0-10 miles per hour.  That resulted in journeys like one I did in 1990 from the North East to Bristol taking 11 hours, that I could normally do then in 3-4 hours.

As for the trains we are all talking about the current situation; no, out of choice I would not use the railways for any long distance journey going away from London being a true female motorhead who loves my car and driving.  However for 4 years I used to commute to my business in London from both the Midlands (yes, via Chiltern Railways which I found to be excellent usually) and the South East as it was far easier than facing London traffic then finding convenient, and not too expensive parking.  I still do commute by train to London from my home town which means, usually I arrive in the big city in just over 1 hour by High Speed train.  Try driving to London from here during a normal day in that time, especially during the peak periods!  You are doing well to do it in 2 hours. Some journeys have taken me 3 hours.

But that is in 2018.  Once we (well, I do not think me!!) get to 2050/75 the railways will be very fast across the country, with, I predict, a means of automatic transport taking you from your front door to the train station, and being the same at the other end. As said it will be very fast, very efficient (without the failings of, like this TB, the "Victorian" system) and relatively cheap.  That is cheaper than maintaining and fueling the motor cars of today, with in 2050 the often mentioned "self driving" cars doing the short journeys.

Wishful thinking?  Well maybe!! But just think how man advanced transport from 1900 to 1975 (no flying to Concorde and landing on the Moon) and with the pace of technological advancement increasing what was previously achieved in 75 years COULD be achieved in just 40 years if man/women has the will, finance, and determination to do it

[LC0112G]

Trains are generally a very London centric view of things. If you live anywhere near a main-ish line to London and your destination is either London or somewhere else with a direct London line, then the train is a viable option.

I can get from Yeovil to London (Waterloo or Paddington) in not much more than 2 hours. However, if I want to get to Birmingham naah. It's barely 40 miles to Bristol, but the train takes over 2 hours. Bristol to Birmingham is another 1h30, so with the change/connection it's about 4 hours. Yes I could drive to Taunton (25 miles) and get a direct train Taunton-Birmingham, but even that would take 2+ hours, plus 30 minutes driving to Taunton. If I'm getting in my car then I might as well drive to Birmingham (takes 2 hours). 

I used to travel frequently to a factory site between Preston and Blackpool (Warton). I could drive it in 3.5-4 hours if I left at 4am. Coming home would take 6 hours. The other viable options were the train, but you can't do that anymore in a day, or the plane. I could fly cheaper from Bristol to Dublin, then Dublin to Blackpool on Ryanair cheaper and quicker than the train. And if it wen't belly up on Ryanair there are worse places to be stuck overnight than Dublin 

[LC0112G]

I'd also like to dispute this...

No, the answer is to build and maintain the latest EMU's to a far higher standard so the chances of them breaking down is relagated to "rare".

If a train is (say) 10% likely to break down, then management will put in place "processes" (I hate that word) to recover the situation for when it does go wrong. Things like relief locos/trains etc. It's not very efficient but it means that even with the breakdown, passengers are likely to get to their destination within a reasonable timeframe - perhaps an hour or two late but no biggie.

If a train is (say) 0.01% likely to break down, management will decide that the cost of providing the "process" is not justified. Far more passengers will get to their destination on time every time. But when that 0.01% chance comes up (and it will), there is then no process in place to do anything about it, and you end up being delayed for many, many hours. If you're on that train then I suspect you'd prefer less reliable trains with a backup plan rather than ultra reliable trains with no backup.

There won't be a time when rare=never, so you either accept low reliability with a backup plan, or high reliability and no backup plan. I used the trains an awful lot in the 70's & 80's. I've probably only been on then half a dozen times this century - 3 times to go pick up Omegas I'd bought on eBay :-)

[Lizzie Zoom]

I'd also like to dispute this...

No, the answer is to build and maintain the latest EMU's to a far higher standard so the chances of them breaking down is relagated to "rare".

If a train is (say) 10% likely to break down, then management will put in place "processes" (I hate that word) to recover the situation for when it does go wrong. Things like relief locos/trains etc. It's not very efficient but it means that even with the breakdown, passengers are likely to get to their destination within a reasonable timeframe - perhaps an hour or two late but no biggie.

If a train is (say) 0.01% likely to break down, management will decide that the cost of providing the "process" is not justified. Far more passengers will get to their destination on time every time. But when that 0.01% chance comes up (and it will), there is then no process in place to do anything about it, and you end up being delayed for many, many hours. If you're on that train then I suspect you'd prefer less reliable trains with a backup plan rather than ultra reliable trains with no backup.

There won't be a time when rare=never, so you either accept low reliability with a backup plan, or high reliability and no backup plan. I used the trains an awful lot in the 70's & 80's. I've probably only been on then half a dozen times this century - 3 times to go pick up Omegas I'd bought on eBay :-)

I don't take what you stated as disputing it at all.  You are just stating fact as of now, and what I said was  a (big) hope for the future when the situation (must) be better.

To draw a comparison with rail and road transport.  In the 1960's and 70's you were lucky if your car didn't break down at some time.  Even brand new cars did.  People relied a lot more on other road services, or a complete collection of tools in the boot, to rescue them.  Now cars are so much more reliable, and if maintained correctly, are rarely broken down.  Of course cars do still break down for all kinds of reasons, but my run of Omegas over the last 20 years have never once let me down due to me looking after them.  That is different to two separate brand new Ford Cortinas that broke down in the 1970's due to manufacturing faults.

Therefore, what I am suggesting, is that in the future trains will become so ultra reliable in the mechanical and electrical sense that they will brake down "rarely".  As a train operator you do not then need to factor in an emergency fleet of rescue units. Indeed, even with the previously broken train mentioned by Varche, that I pointed out was a victim of "Beast from the East", had it's passengers taken off (eventually) by another EMU train that pulled up alongside and had ramps to let people cross from one to another.

The days, as in the steam and early diesel era , when trains frequently broke down to to poor maintenance in the case of the former, and poor design / build in the instance of the latter, are over. Electrification and superior, advancing technology, will finally consign it all to history with a railway system fit for the late 21st century.  It's just a pity I will not see it in the lifetime I have left, but there again if I return in a new life I will be able to enjoy the benefits!!

[LC0112G]

I don't take what you stated as disputing it at all.  You are just stating fact as of now, and what I said was  a (big) hope for the future when the situation (must) be better.

There are two type of hope - Bob Hope and No Hope. Bob died in 2003.

To draw a comparison with rail and road transport.  In the 1960's and 70's you were lucky if your car didn't break down at some time.  Even brand new cars did.  People relied a lot more on other road services, or a complete collection of tools in the boot, to rescue them.  Now cars are so much more reliable, and if maintained correctly, are rarely broken down.  Of course cars do still break down for all kinds of reasons, but my run of Omegas over the last 20 years have never once let me down due to me looking after them.  That is different to two separate brand new Ford Cortinas that broke down in the 1970's due to manufacturing faults.

But what you are saying demonstrates what I'm saying. Tyres are now very reliable, and many new cars don't even have a spare. Get a puncture that the can of superglue won't fix and you're stuffed - marooned for hours. And sod's law says it'll be a Bank holiday Friday night, pi55ing down with rain, in the middle of nowhere. Whereas in the 'old' days you'd whip the duff wheel off, put the spare on, and be on your way 20 minutes late, but still on your way.

Making things more reliable tends to make the consequences when things do go wrong much much worse.

Therefore, what I am suggesting, is that in the future trains will become so ultra reliable in the mechanical and electrical sense that they will brake down "rarely".  As a train operator you do not then need to factor in an emergency fleet of rescue units. Indeed, even with the previously broken train mentioned by Varche, that I pointed out was a victim of "Beast from the East", had it's passengers taken off (eventually) by another EMU train that pulled up alongside and had ramps to let people cross from one to another.

And you won't get me on a train like that until rarely=never. You'll ALLWAYS need a fleet of rescue units, or at least a rescue plan. 15 hours in sub zero temps is not a suitable rescue plan.

The days, as in the steam and early diesel era , when trains frequently broke down to to poor maintenance in the case of the former, and poor design / build in the instance of the latter, are over. Electrification and superior, advancing technology, will finally consign it all to history with a railway system fit for the late 21st century.  It's just a pity I will not see it in the lifetime I have left, but there again if I return in a new life I will be able to enjoy the benefits!!

We'll all be teleporting from A to B before that happens. Complete pie in the sky management twaddle to this engineer. If something can fail it will, and at the worst possible time for the stupidest of unforeseen reasons. If you don't have a backup plan in place ready to go then you shouldn't be allowed to run a railway.

[TheBoy]

So not 3.5 hours then TB

5hrs stopping for a hot sit down meal, and taking a massive detour through the slow Lake District roads, I would estimate an easy 3.5hrs non stop, or without detour.

And that is on a Friday Afternoon.  i.e. the busiest time.

It would be 10hrs on a stupid train. 10hrs of standing. And 4-5 times the cost, even before we consider the massive rail subsidies.



As for the rubbish about trains and cars both being Victorian...

First railed transport is from ancient times.  Steam at turn of 19C, and mainstream pre Victorian.

First car, turn of 20C, mainstream during the reign of our current monarch.



Again, I'm typing this sat on a completely knackered train (One of Chiltern's clubmans) running on completely knackered tracks - so bad, I can barely type on this laptop.

[TheBoy]

And as soon as I pressed Post, the driver came on apologising for our slow progress, but the train in front has a technical issue...

...and his words, "I obviously can't overtake"


He makes a very valid point about this outdated, inefficient, ineffective form of transport.

[STEMO]

The awful truth is that neither road nor rail travel are sustainable for too much longer. You can't just keep adding to either system for ever. Too many people needing to travel around the country, and more being added each year, sooner or later we will reach saturation point.
We will soon look like India, with people on the roofs of trains and the front bumper of trucks and buses. The ironic part is..most of them will be Indians. 

[Bigron]

It was said that, with the coming of home computers and the internet, many people would work from home and rarely need to travel to the office. What happened to that idea?

Ron.

[aaronjb]

What happened to that idea?

It's really hard for doctors and nurses to do that, and builders, waiters, waitresses, etc.. I'd wager more people are employed in "non-desk" jobs than are employed in desk jobs.

That said, even with desk jobs there has been a recent trend of ending home working as companies like HP and BT suddenly realised they were paying for very large offices that were almost always empty.. so instead of ditching the office, they told everyone to get their arses in to the office..

He types. From his desk. At home. 

[STEMO]

What happened to that idea?

It's really hard for doctors and nurses to do that, and builders, waiters, waitresses, etc.. I'd wager more people are employed in "non-desk" jobs than are employed in desk jobs.

That said, even with desk jobs there has been a recent trend of ending home working as companies like HP and BT suddenly realised they were paying for very large offices that were almost always empty.. so instead of ditching the office, they told everyone to get their arses in to the office..

He types. From his desk. At home. 

Yes. Shouldn't you be working? 

[Doctor Gollum]

My Scottish run was August last year. Return journey took 24 hours, partly due to an 11 am ferry, so an earlier start than choice therefore requiring two sleep stops.

[Kevin Wood]

It's really hard for doctors and nurses to do that, and builders, waiters, waitresses, etc.. I'd wager more people are employed in "non-desk" jobs than are employed in desk jobs.

That said, even with desk jobs there has been a recent trend of ending home working as companies like HP and BT suddenly realised they were paying for very large offices that were almost always empty people to sit around in their pyjamas posting on car forums.. so instead of ditching the office, they told everyone to get their arses in to the office..

He types. From his desk. At home. 

FTFY.

[Doctor Gollum]

It's really hard for doctors and nurses to do that, and builders, waiters, waitresses, etc.. I'd wager more people are employed in "non-desk" jobs than are employed in desk jobs.

That said, even with desk jobs there has been a recent trend of ending home working as companies like HP and BT suddenly realised they were paying for very large offices that were almost always empty people to sit around in their pyjamas posting on car forums.. so instead of ditching the office, they told everyone to get their arses in to the office..

He types. From his desk. At home. In his pyjamas

FTFY.

Indeed

[aaronjb]

It's really hard for doctors and nurses to do that, and builders, waiters, waitresses, etc.. I'd wager more people are employed in "non-desk" jobs than are employed in desk jobs.

That said, even with desk jobs there has been a recent trend of ending home working as companies like HP and BT suddenly realised they were paying for very large offices that were almost always empty people to sit around in their pyjamas posting on car forums.. so instead of ditching the office, they told everyone to get their arses in to the office..

He types. From his desk. At home. 

FTFY.

Well, I'm dressed... so you must be talking about TB

[Lizzie Zoom]

So not 3.5 hours then TB

As for the rubbish about trains and cars both being Victorian...

First railed transport is from ancient times.  Steam at turn of 19C, and mainstream pre Victorian.

First car, turn of 20C, mainstream during the reign of our current monarch.

Indeed, the earliest evidence of a form of rail (parallel stone rails) is from 2,245BC in Ancient Babylon.  The earliest evidence of wheels being used for transport, such as chariots, goes back to Ancient Egypt in around 3,000 BC, and elsewhere such as Ancient Greece and what we now know as China at about the same time. So both were around during Victorian Britain, when both forms of transport were dramatically brought up to date with fast trains and the invention of the internal combustion engine.

But the heyday of the railways were at the end and beginning of the 20th century, with the most romantic and technically advanced period in the 1930's.  As you know the car has developed at some pace to date, with now an end of the internal combustion engine in sight, but with rail transport heading the same way.  Both are essentially a "Victorian" development with there own 'modern' technical versions coming forth.  Both early cars and lorries were driven by steam!  Remember also that both the very early steam railway engines and motor cars, along with the early planes, were also classed as "a novelty" and without a real future.

What we see today is most certainly 20th century developments of both forms of transport, which are now taking on 21st century technology.  The race is on for one to secure a place as the key mover of people and goods in this century, with the 'loser' relegated to a form of local / back up transport.  As others, and I, have said the Golden Age of motoring is past, but I would concede that perhaps there is no Golden Age of the Railways to come!!  That will be down to the people of the future to decide in their willingness to invest and develop transport for the needs of the late 21st century. 

[TheBoy]

What happened to that idea?

It's really hard for doctors and nurses to do that, and builders, waiters, waitresses, etc.. I'd wager more people are employed in "non-desk" jobs than are employed in desk jobs.

That said, even with desk jobs there has been a recent trend of ending home working as companies like HP and BT suddenly realised they were paying for very large offices that were almost always empty.. so instead of ditching the office, they told everyone to get their arses in to the office..

He types. From his desk. At home. 

BT lacks enough office space.  I think the lack of home working is a company wide trust issue.  And probably some good evidence to suggest that's partly true...   ...I was trying to book a slot in some bint's calendar the other day, but it was chokka with hair appointments, coffee mornings and dog walking.

As always, those that take the piss ruin it for everyone.


Having also spent 10yrs at HP, that is a combination of American culture and trust.



I can do my job from anywhere. And indeed have done whilst supposedly holidaying abroad.  Though the technology department at BT thinks the world ends on the Eastern coast of the Orwell...

[TheBoy]

It's really hard for doctors and nurses to do that, and builders, waiters, waitresses, etc.. I'd wager more people are employed in "non-desk" jobs than are employed in desk jobs.

That said, even with desk jobs there has been a recent trend of ending home working as companies like HP and BT suddenly realised they were paying for very large offices that were almost always empty people to sit around in their pyjamas posting on car forums.. so instead of ditching the office, they told everyone to get their arses in to the office..

He types. From his desk. At home. 

FTFY.

Well, I'm dressed... so you must be talking about TB

I was in Londonium all day, so was most definitely dressed.

[Shackeng]

Doncha just love the thread drifts on this forum.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Doncha just love the thread drifts on this forum.

This is almost as good as a White Goods thread! 

[STEMO]

Doncha just love the thread drifts on this forum.

This is almost as good as a White Goods thread! 

I'm thinking of getting a new microwave, but it will probably be black.

[Kevin Wood]

Doncha just love the thread drifts on this forum.

This is almost as good as a White Goods thread! 

I'm thinking of getting a new microwave, but it will probably be black.

Black ones are faster, as someone used to say...

[Viral_Jim]

I can do my job from anywhere. And indeed have done whilst supposedly holidaying abroad.  Though the technology department at BT thinks the world ends on the Eastern coast of the Orwell...

I didn't realise you were a BT bod, great guy in my team defected back to their internal audit dept from us back in July. He home works about 60% and then spends the rest of his time in various random properties that have more or less no one in them.

[Rods2]

I enjoy working from home where my long stressful commute is from my lounge, through my hall into my study/office. The insurance broker I do a lot of work for, about 2 years a go installed a VOIP phone system at home and at the houses of the staff that work for him, and closed his office, which has reduced his costs and boosted his profits. Internet based service companies make distributed working at home viable. With many other businesses you have no choice but to have a common place of work for everybody.

I haven't driven to London for years as I find the train quicker and easier and I try and arrange meetings so I rarely need to travel at peak times.

[aaronjb]

I didn't realise you were a BT bod, great guy in my team defected back to their internal audit dept from us back in July. He home works about 60% and then spends the rest of his time in various random properties that have more or less no one in them.

Maybe he saw the writing on the wall (You know what I mean, I'm sure! But it's probably not for open forum)

[Lizzie Zoom]

I enjoy working from home where my long stressful commute is from my lounge, through my hall into my study/office. The insurance broker I do a lot of work for, about 2 years a go installed a VOIP phone system at home and at the houses of the staff that work for him, and closed his office, which has reduced his costs and boosted his profits. Internet based service companies make distributed working at home viable. With many other businesses you have no choice but to have a common place of work for everybody.

I haven't driven to London for years as I find the train quicker and easier and I try and arrange meetings so I rarely need to travel at peak times.

And that is the fact for so many who's work is in the big City.  Anyone who drives there every day of the working week, unless they have pre-arranged free parking, and their destination is outside the Congestion Zone, is asking for health troubles.  You Rod, like me, have driven into London in the past, and used the train, but like so many your final choice is to use the train.

Strangely I still love the buzz of driving into London maybe once a year so I don't lose touch with my ability to find my way around as I did in the 1970's to 1990's.  But 'the train' is really the only way to travel to there when having to do it on a daily basis.

Now the thread is back on track...........