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Author Topic: Renewable energy-storage  (Read 2051 times)

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Varche

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Renewable energy-storage
« on: 14 August 2017, 23:21:34 »

Next big thing. Renewable energy is not predictable so those generating will be charged with storing surplus.

I dare say batteries have moved on but it will still be DC. Great for lights i guess but how is it going to revolutionise our lives?

Anyone got their finger on the pulse and lnow what is coming? Maybe they will charge up banks of  electric car batteries and operate as service stations reducing charging costs at a stroke  ;D
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zirk

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Re: Renewable energy-storage
« Reply #1 on: 15 August 2017, 03:46:07 »

Next big thing. Renewable energy is not predictable so those generating will be charged with storing surplus.

I dare say batteries have moved on but it will still be DC. Great for lights i guess but how is it going to revolutionise our lives?

Anyone got their finger on the pulse and lnow what is coming? Maybe they will charge up banks of  electric car batteries and operate as service stations reducing charging costs at a stroke  ;D
Err....   Solar Panels are DC
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Shackeng

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Re: Renewable energy-storage
« Reply #2 on: 15 August 2017, 08:11:49 »

Yep, feed via an inverter in my loft. :y
Incidentally, mine are now paid for after 7½ years.  ::) ::) ::)
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aaronjb

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Re: Renewable energy-storage
« Reply #3 on: 15 August 2017, 08:37:18 »

Yep, feed via an inverter in my loft. :y
Incidentally, mine are now paid for after 7½ years.  ::) ::) ::)

What's the loss of efficiency been like in that time?
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Gaffers

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Re: Renewable energy-storage
« Reply #4 on: 15 August 2017, 08:48:49 »

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerwall

Supposedly, these tiles are going to be cheaper than normal roof tiles :-X https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/solarroof
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aaronjb

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Re: Renewable energy-storage
« Reply #5 on: 15 August 2017, 08:57:48 »

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerwall

£5k+ for an install, last time I looked.

I'm a bit jumpy about strapping a LiOn bomb to the side of my house, too.
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Viral_Jim

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Re: Renewable energy-storage
« Reply #6 on: 15 August 2017, 09:15:47 »

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerwall

£5k+ for an install, last time I looked.

I'm a bit jumpy about strapping a LiOn bomb to the side of my house, too.

Some people hold similar views about pressurised hot water cylinders :P

AFAIK storage is being looked at on 2 levels, home level (as above) and also on a more macro-level. Tesla are installing a 129MWh one in South Australia. Old Elon seems pretty confident, reckons he'll do it within 100 days of the contract being signed or they can have it for free  ;D.
Quote
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jul/07/tesla-to-build-worlds-biggest-lithium-ion-battery-in-south-australia

What renewable storage does do is make it very viable to have an off grid new build, particularly in rural areas as the connection fees are a complete racket! SWMBO and I went to look at a barn for conversion in Leicestershire a while ago, electric needed to come 1.5miles from the nearest village. Western power distribution wanted £141,000 PLUS VAT to run the cable, plus installation costs, plus connection fees! And then you still have to pay the bills.

One tenth of that would get you a serviceable solar array plus storage and 1/5 would get you a large array, two power packs and a backup generator. If we do a self build (hope to at some point) I suspect I will think very long and hard before coughing up for a connection fee.
 
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Renewable energy-storage
« Reply #7 on: 15 August 2017, 09:25:58 »

I reckon dynamic pricing to encourage people to use energy off-peak needs to be in the mix too. This is the big missed opportunity of the current generation of smart meters. Every meter will soon be net connected and the only benefit they can think of is that you won't need to read the meter. ::)

Make energy punitively expensive during peak times and people will think more about when they use it. Then part of the storage conundrum is solved. Even with sites like DInorwig which can store unfathomable amounts of energy, storage is a drop in the ocean compared to what might be required to absorb a large amount of renewable energy whenever it happens to arrive and I don't think a few batteries will help much.
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LC0112G

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Re: Renewable energy-storage
« Reply #8 on: 15 August 2017, 09:57:32 »

Next big thing. Renewable energy is not predictable so those generating will be charged with storing surplus.

I dare say batteries have moved on but it will still be DC. Great for lights i guess but how is it going to revolutionise our lives?

Anyone got their finger on the pulse and lnow what is coming? Maybe they will charge up banks of  electric car batteries and operate as service stations reducing charging costs at a stroke  ;D

Being DC isn't much of a problem nowadays. AC distribution starts out at many hundreds of kV on the big pylons, is then converted down to several tens of kV for local distribution, and then down to 240V for domestic use. So there are already probably half a dozen transformers in any supply system. Even if each transformer is 99% efficient, the cumulative losses mount up, as do losses in the power cables themselves.

The first thing most modern devices (TV,'s computers etc) do is rectify the mains to get 340 VDC and then use internal switch mode PSU's to generate the required internal voltages - 12V, 5V, 3V3 etc. Big switch mode devices can be 95%+ efficient (though small ones are often only 80-85%). It makes no difference to such a device if you feed it 240V AC or 340V DC. Infact with the US being on 110V AC it's common to find devices that will work from 80-400 V DC or AC. Things like kettles, cookers, lights don't care much either.

You probably wouldn't want 340V DC in your household cables though - it's a bit too hot. I reckon something between 50 and 100V DC is more likely.

And - if you do end up storing surplus "electricity"- probably best to electrolyse water to generate Hydrogen, and then store that so you can burn it later to generate electricity. You can even then transport it in fuel tankers to "petrol" stations where you can fill up your Hydrogen fuel cell car.   
« Last Edit: 15 August 2017, 10:01:00 by LC0112G »
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Varche

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Re: Renewable energy-storage
« Reply #9 on: 15 August 2017, 10:03:08 »

You might be right Kevin. What prompted the post was an item I caught the tail end of where an expert was effusive about the storage development and progress. Can't find it on the web but there are plenty of references to small scale storage. I have seen plenty of primitive examples of those for off grid homes here.

You are spot on with energy pricing but we already do that with cheap night rate to some extent. I guess you mean situations like  6.30 p.m. when everyone switches the kettle on and flushes the loo after the six oclock news type peaks.

I always remember my physics teacher telling us " if you can invent a way of storing AC electricity you will be rich"
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zirk

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Re: Renewable energy-storage
« Reply #10 on: 15 August 2017, 12:46:07 »

You might be right Kevin. What prompted the post was an item I caught the tail end of where an expert was effusive about the storage development and progress. Can't find it on the web but there are plenty of references to small scale storage. I have seen plenty of primitive examples of those for off grid homes here.

You are spot on with energy pricing but we already do that with cheap night rate to some extent. I guess you mean situations like  6.30 p.m. when everyone switches the kettle on and flushes the loo after the six oclock news type peaks.

I always remember my physics teacher telling us " if you can invent a way of storing AC electricity you will be rich"
Just get two batteries talking to each other,.........        my turn, your turn, my turn, your turn  ;D
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Rods2

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Re: Renewable energy-storage
« Reply #11 on: 15 August 2017, 14:24:59 »

With energy, the cost of the energy is always proportional to EROEI. With local generation, this is the cost of the generating and storage equipment, less any subsidies minus your increased tax, ongoing running costs and paid interest if a loan or lost interest where the money is no longer in a savings account v cost saved (increased) from grid supplied electricity.

This needs to be on the left side of 1:1 or you are paying for the privilege of local generation where you have more expensive electricity compared with getting it from the grid. I'm sure many ingenious and more efficient storage methods will be designed and implemented as the technology matures like they have, over a very long period, for another intermittent, seasonal supply of energy we must all have daily, food. With food, the EROEI is 1:10 against. If the same sort of renewable energy effeciency and pricing happens so they go up 10 times with the bulk of our energy generation look at your monthly food and energy bills per person and ask yourself how affordable would paying 10 times what you are currently paying, affect your standard of living or worse? ::) ::) ::) Especially, where we are heading into a colder period Maunder Minimum which will increase your heating and probably food costs, through reduced yields, on top. Current average energy drop from the sun at the Earth's surface is 0.4whr/sqm and is expected to drop further as we get into the full minimum period.
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Shackeng

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Re: Renewable energy-storage
« Reply #12 on: 15 August 2017, 16:09:26 »

Yep, feed via an inverter in my loft. :y
Incidentally, mine are now paid for after 7½ years.  ::) ::) ::)

What's the loss of efficiency been like in that time?
Impossible to measure without knowing how the suns output has been reduced by cloud etc., but the output for 3 months to June for example, has been very constant at about 440KW, varying by less than 10KW, for the whole 7 years. :y
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aaronjb

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Re: Renewable energy-storage
« Reply #13 on: 15 August 2017, 16:11:55 »

Impossible to measure without knowing how the suns output has been reduced by cloud etc., but the output for 3 months to June for example, has been very constant at about 440KW, varying by less than 10KW, for the whole 7 years. :y

Pretty good, then :y
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Lincs Robert

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Re: Renewable energy-storage
« Reply #14 on: 15 August 2017, 17:09:53 »

Yep, feed via an inverter in my loft. :y
Incidentally, mine are now paid for after 7½ years.  ::) ::) ::)

+1 on that  :y
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