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[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Maybe we should bull doze cities like Liverpool that were built on the back if slavery .....

Is there a fund for this ? If so, where can I contribute. 

[Bigron]

I'm largely with you on that, DG, but although not totally innocent in this matter, the English were mainly speculative go-betweens in a human trade that benefitted the greedy plantation owners, and should not have had the disapprobation to the extent that we did.
On a slight aside, the Americans decried our actions in Rhodesia without considering what they did to the Native Americans - the Red Indians. Take the beam from your own eye?

Ron.

[Doctor Gollum]

The commencement of the slave trade predates he Declaration of Independence by a couple of hundred years, give or take...

The original plantation owners were in fact European... Also, not all plantation owners were tyrants either... the criminalisation of slavery actually resulted in a drop of living standards across the entire labour force. Plenty of poor white people in the Southern States.

Agreed though regarding the hypocrisy regarding central and southern Africa... you can't draw arbitrary straight lines on a map without upsetting the locals.*

*Apparently, you can if you enslave or eradicate them

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

What (supposedly educated and intelligent) people apparently fail to understand is the simple fact that the world was a very very different place centuries ago. Its beyond ludicrous to judge the past by 21st century standards.
It never ceases to amaze me tbh. 

[Lizzie Zoom]

What (supposedly educated and intelligent) people apparently fail to understand is the simple fact that the world was a very very different place centuries ago. Its beyond ludicrous to judge the past by 21st century standards.
It never ceases to amaze me tbh. 

Exactly right.  You must never judge history in the context of standards today other than highlight how we have moved forward.

However, in terms of the right wing groups they lost their right to be protected by society when they supported the fascism that has cost so many their freedom and their lives. That fact is not totally in the past, and by their actions still affects the minority groups of today.

As for statues; how would you feel as a Jew, a communist, a trade unionist, someone who wants and celebrates the freedoms we have today, having a statue of Adolf Hitler in Trafalgar Square?  The statues in the USA of Confederate "heroes" who, amoungst other things, were fighting for the right to maintain slavery, have the "Hitler effect" for blacks, especially with the KKK always present.  Trump is giving a bad message, but at least those statues are being removed and even the confederate flag could be outlawed, as what place does it have in American society other than a negative one?

[Bigron]

I agree 100%, Albs; it is especially true of the Uni students and "intelligencia" who think they are right in everything and want all others to think their way.
Freedom of speech and thought doesn't enter their blinkered minds, despite worls wars having been fought to protect those freedoms.
Would you judge the way cavemen behaved by today's mores? Even as recently as in Victorian times, attitudes and behaviour were vastly different.
If you want to judge people by earlier standards, as recently as 50 years ago, being a homosexual warranted a custodial sentence; is anyone suggesting nowdays that we imprison the uphill gardeners? 

Ron.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I agree 100%, Albs; it is especially true of the Uni students and "intelligencia" who think they are right in everything and want all others to think their way.
Freedom of speech and thought doesn't enter their blinkered minds, despite worls wars having been fought to protect those freedoms.
Would you judge the way cavemen behaved by today's mores? Even as recently as in Victorian times, attitudes and behaviour were vastly different.
If you want to judge people by earlier standards, as recently as 50 years ago, being a homosexual warranted a custodial sentence; is anyone suggesting nowdays that we imprison the uphill gardeners?

Ron.

The big difference is that fascists have never gone away and still represent the extreme evil they did in the 1920's/30's/40's, and can hardly be compared to homosexuality which has never killed millions, and anyway is just not comparable; like chalk and cheese.

[Bigron]

The big difference is that fascists have never gone away and still represent the extreme evil they did in the 1920's/30's/40's, and can hardly be compared to homosexuality which has never killed millions, and anyway is just not comparable; like chalk and cheese.
[/quote]

Aids?

[Lizzie Zoom]

The big difference is that fascists have never gone away and still represent the extreme evil they did in the 1920's/30's/40's, and can hardly be compared to homosexuality which has never killed millions, and anyway is just not comparable; like chalk and cheese.

Aids?
[/quote]

That was down to poor hygiene and a lack of contraception, along with nature, not a deliberate political party's act of one fascist group to dominate the world and rid it of "undesirables".

[Bigron]

Dear Lizzie, you are following your own agenda here and deliberately subverting the point I was making - I was giving a very recent example of how attitudes and mores change, even in such a short space of time and what was punishable is now acceptable.

Ron.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Dear Lizzie, you are following your own agenda here and deliberately subverting the point I was making - I was giving a very recent example of how attitudes and mores change, even in such a short space of time and what was punishable is now acceptable.

Ron.

Not at all Ron. I was making the point that it is, and never will be acceptable to kill 6 million Jews, and create a war that caused 60 million deaths.  The fascists in the USA have the same racial attitudes and intentions of the Nazis, so do you believe they are now suddenly acceptable, or ever could be?

Could attitudes ever change on that in our life time?

[STEMO]

Maybe we should bull doze cities like Liverpool that were built on the back if slavery .....

Erm...hello....you're forgetting rum, tobacco and sugar. Nowt wrong with them.

Should never have built that canal thingy, though. Gave the Mancs ideas above their station. 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Stalin killed 50 million or so iirc, yet the cretins who are allowed to vote in this country recently came close to electing a group of people who think he is some kind of God.
Some people in the South of the USA,  unfortunately sometimes allow their passion for small govt. freedom of the individual and love of Southern culture. to drag them into a dead end of right wing extremism.
In the grand scheme of things its not a huge problem but must be kept an eye on. The more the liberals from NYC etc. try to combat this by talk of banning the confederate flag, and pulling down statues of people they don't like, and generally forcing non compliance of their version of Liberalism into submission, the more the resistance will grow.
Its a much smaller problem than the far left (Momentum for example) who are coming to have great influence in the UK.
British Jews have more to fear from Corbyns Labour, than US Jews do from the "good ol boys" down in the South. 

[Doctor Gollum]

Maybe we should bull doze cities like Liverpool that were built on the back if slavery .....

Erm...hello....you're forgetting rum, tobacco and sugar. Nowt wrong with them.

Should never have built that canal thingy, though. Gave the Mancs ideas above their station. 

The Mancchester Shit Canal?

One good tidal wave would take care of Warrington and Mancchester in one easy go...

And wash it all out to sea

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

We can but dream.