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Author Topic: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit  (Read 7237 times)

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Padster

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Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« on: 14 November 2006, 14:28:30 »

Hi, Does anyone know how i can put my amp/sub in the boot, but keep the standard head unit? I would assume that the standard head doesn't have RCA OUTS on it? I have heard of a conversion which is a bit on the hefty side for cash, Cheers, Pad.
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #1 on: 14 November 2006, 20:26:22 »

How many channels is the amp?

Idealy you want 4 channels plus a sub.....then feed the speaker wiring from the head unit to the amp, pipe the amped signals back and feed them into the loom and use the amp to filter the low end stuff out. Then connect sub to fill in the base.

The omega side trims remove easily to allow cable routing and the original fit speakers are more tha good enough for the mid/high stuff (can take about 30W RMS)
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Jay w

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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #2 on: 14 November 2006, 21:05:57 »

ne the sort of thing you are referring to, however i had the Bose set up and so already had all the speaker cables running to the boot of the car.
Mine head unit didn't have pre outs on it, all i did was to buy some goo quality phono leads and solder them on to the speaker cables, i then ran a fused power lead, a seperate earth and a switched remote lead to the back of the car to control the amps
My current set up is an alpine 4 channel running the speakers in the car and another amp running 2x12inch subs in an enclosure, the subs make a hell of a difference to the sound quality.

Overall cost was not that bad, it was a lot of time spent running wire and soldering connection, but the end result was worth it  :y
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Padster

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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #3 on: 14 November 2006, 22:23:32 »

I've got a VIBE 600w 2 channel amp (this is when bridged). All  I want to do is connect RCAs to the back of the head unit and I can do the rest, I MISS ME BASS!  Obviously I will HPF the door speakers and in the two fronts there are 2 tweeters anyway.

Any ideas how I can RCA the outputs on the back of the head unit?

Dude, how did you solder and what, cos that sounds like a plan!

If anyone knows of a conversion kit, I would much appreciate a website address.

Cheers,
THE Padster
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Jay w

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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #4 on: 14 November 2006, 22:39:33 »

if i was trying to do what you want top achieve i would be looking at taking a feed from the rear speakers, soldering some phono connections to them and that would be your sound to the Amp.

I don't know that this is a way of having the RCA connectors direct out of the head unit
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Hillper

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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #5 on: 15 November 2006, 05:35:59 »

There's no phono level outputs on the headunit.  
The conversion you mentioned is probably a powered line output converter.  You would need one if your amp doesn't have high level inputs.

Assuming your amp does has high level (speaker level) inputs, you can use these.  Tee into the rear speaker feeds with some speaker wire and connect to the amp inputs.  Keep the polarity the same for each channel.

And definately high pass the door speakers.  

Edit.  I grew up in Sittingbourne!
« Last Edit: 15 November 2006, 05:59:30 by Hillper »
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #6 on: 15 November 2006, 08:02:48 »

I have to ask the question...

Why are you so insistant on keeping the headunit?
Yes, it has steering controls and the display on the MID (most units nowadays have adaptors for these).

No, it has not phono outputs, it has very low power output and a very limited range of features (no mp3 support).

I really would recommend changing it. If you want good sound out, you need a good signal in.
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #7 on: 15 November 2006, 08:59:39 »

Of course, mentioning MP3 and good sound in the same sentence is a bit of a contradiction..... ;D

I personally like this type of approach, the main let down in the factory fit audio is the amps, by using the speaker outputs to drive an amp with speaker inputs the distortion is massively reduced because the output drive is very much reduced (the speaker inputs are much higher impedance, note how the Bose system explores this).

As for the DAC based setup internally, the parts used in the standard kit are very good and will have a lower distortion figure than anything with the additional MP3 type processing capability (not that you could ever detect this in a noisy car environment).

Plus it fits in with the rest of the dash setup.......at the end of the day, the main item that will help the sound is the amp and sub.....from then on its diminishing returns....the further gains from a head unit will then be minimal (although many have 'tuned' sound output, ie the manufacturer messes with the audio to tune it to the target audiences taste....they distort it for you, hence why one persons favorite is another's poison)

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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #8 on: 15 November 2006, 09:20:19 »

I find that the Bose system is quite good with the treble on zero and the bass on -1.  Reduces distortion, not a ton of bass but what sound it does make is pretty good for a car.  

Is there an easy way to wire a sub into the Bose system and HPF everything else?  Passive filter before the Bose amp and use an off-the-shelf powered sub?  I'm not in a rush, but if not expensive might be game to try.
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #9 on: 15 November 2006, 09:58:46 »

The easiest solution would be to take the Bose outputs to the bass speakers on the rear shelf, disconnect them and feed them to a sub.

The door speakers already have the low end stuff removed.
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #10 on: 15 November 2006, 10:15:37 »

Quote
The easiest solution would be to take the Bose outputs to the bass speakers on the rear shelf, disconnect them and feed them to a sub.

The door speakers already have the low end stuff removed.
OK thanks.  So I can just replace the speakers in the rear shelf, either with low range subwoofers in the rear shelf, or with a non-powered sub enclosure in the trunk.  No additional amp required.
« Last Edit: 15 November 2006, 10:15:59 by theolodian »
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #11 on: 15 November 2006, 10:54:29 »

If your no going to add an extra amp then there is no point in doing anything.....most of the low end distortion is likely to be clipping due to the amp being overdriven.

The best route would be to get a small powered sub and feed the Bose sub speaker signals into it (hope this is clearer than my original explanation).
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #12 on: 15 November 2006, 11:32:28 »

OK, cheers.
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #13 on: 15 November 2006, 13:58:26 »

I understand your reasoning Mark, and I know better to argue with you on audio matters! ;)

However, the original unit is not the most feature rich or impressive.
Also, would you not agree the signal from a dedcated RCA output is significantly better than tapping into the wiring (even allowing for the fact this is a car environment).

Ultimately though, as you say, it is down to personal preference. :)

Has to be added though, the Bose system is mighty impressive as a standard fit!
Theo, may I humbly suggest the Infinity Basslink as a means of producing extra bass?

I had one (and will be putting another into the Saab in due course). They are very very good (well I thought so... Mark is yet to be convinced! ;)) and take up only a small amount of space.
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #14 on: 15 November 2006, 14:10:59 »

Quote
However, the original unit is not the most feature rich or impressive.

Also, would you not agree the signal from a dedicated RCA output is significantly better than tapping into the wiring (even allowing for the fact this is a car environment).

What features do you realy want, the most you might gain (that is truely useful) would be MP3 capability (questionable.....) and maybe DAB support. The rest is pretty gimmicy stuff like fancy displays etc.

RCA output better, marginaly, slightly less circuitry to go through but......a lot more expense over and above the amp and sub for questionable gains (assuming you dont want/need MP3 support) by changing the head unit.

Its the old horses for courses routine.....
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #15 on: 15 November 2006, 14:26:32 »

Actually I'm pretty happy with the quality of sound I get using my iPod with a tape adapter.  It would be nice to have a little more bass, but 150 quid nice?  I'll have to think about it.

I definitely don't want to get into replacing the radio, cd changer, phone, and sat-nav.  

cheers!  :y
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #16 on: 17 November 2006, 18:40:13 »

I had this dilemma when i put my amps into my miggy....

I like the look of the standard fit unit, plus on face value the car looks like it has a normal stereo installed so doesnt attract the attention of the local chav's

With some creative thinking i managed to get to a point where i am happy with the sound and still have the ability to add an ipod, and still end up better off than had i put a different head unit in

ATEOTD it is down to personal choice
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Hillper

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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #17 on: 26 November 2006, 11:50:54 »

I probably would have kept the original head unit, but due to the lack of pre-outs, decided to whip it out.

It was only after I appreciated the convenience of MP3 capability that I was convinced.  (I find MP3 quality acceptable at high sampling rates).

However, I didn't have the phone and satnav to lose.

There's no doubt that fitting a sub and nothing else is the biggest and best improvenment you can make to a car's system.

There's no need to spend £150 either.  They're always on Ebay.
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #18 on: 26 November 2006, 21:10:55 »

if you're just after mp3 capability, don't forget one of the ipod interfaces out there, like this one - can he had off fleabay for about £80 now ... plus the cost of the ipod of course, if you don't already have one :)
« Last Edit: 26 November 2006, 21:11:32 by sounds2k »
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #19 on: 27 November 2006, 18:59:52 »

Portable music - hmm - I just eject MD and place in HU
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #20 on: 30 November 2006, 16:08:32 »

Quote
I probably would have kept the original head unit, but due to the lack of pre-outs, decided to whip it out.

It was only after I appreciated the convenience of MP3 capability that I was convinced.  (I find MP3 quality acceptable at high sampling rates).

However, I didn't have the phone and satnav to lose.

There's no doubt that fitting a sub and nothing else is the biggest and best improvenment you can make to a car's system.

There's no need to spend £150 either.  They're always on Ebay.

Mmmm sub goodness! :)

Just seperately bought a Pioneer GM-X952 (300w RMS @12v 2 channel bridged@ 4ohm) amp and a 12" Rockford Fosgate Punch Sub (200w RMS) in sealed enclosure.

Total cost.... £42.52p :D

So, yes, keep your eyes open and bargains can be had.

Oh it will be so good to have bass again. The difference a properly set up sub makes to a system cannot be overstated! :D
« Last Edit: 30 November 2006, 16:09:26 by admin »
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MV6 Lee

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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #21 on: 01 December 2006, 03:56:39 »

Im curious reading this, i have the standard head unit and im about to fit the Nokia CARK91 phone kit to my car, i also have a new sub and a 4 channel amp also new which ive had for some time and not even used (Mutant Amp, Pile 12" sub).

Could i actually keep the standard head unit, the 6disc CD changer that comes witht he headunit and still have the phone working AND a sub and amp?

If so, could someone explain how i could do this as i have to rip apart the car to hardwire the phone kit in (might need to point out im using an Autoleads adapter NOT hardwiring it with the universal wiring).

Any advice on how i could get it working would be appreciated.... Its about time i used the sub and amp as theyve not even been fitted or used ever since i saw a demo in a car audio shop and purchased them! haha.
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #22 on: 02 December 2006, 08:22:20 »

With regard to fitting sub and amp and keeping standard head unit.....erm...that's the title of this thread!

Suggest you re-read from the top!

The phone should work with the correct adaptor.
« Last Edit: 02 December 2006, 08:23:17 by Hillper »
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MV6 Lee

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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #23 on: 02 December 2006, 12:03:54 »

Quote
With regard to fitting sub and amp and keeping standard head unit.....erm...that's the title of this thread!

Suggest you re-read from the top!

The phone should work with the correct adaptor.

nof offence mate, but I readx every single post in this thread and the question I was asking was more about whether it woukd still work given the fact I planned on using the phone adapter connected into the headunit.

I was just explaining what I intended to do inj more detail.

my phone kit is more important than fitting my sub and amp, but I don't want to hack my electrical wiring to pieces before realising it won't work! lol. :)
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #24 on: 02 December 2006, 15:59:47 »

My advice to you is just fit a sub driven from two channels bridged.  Pick up speaker level feeds from the rear speaker wires under the plastic sill cover.  
High pass the door speakers and your headunit will instantly be able to drive them much harder.

If you really want to keep the original headunit, it's the easiest thing to do and you can concentrate on fitting the phone up front and the amp at the back, without getting in a muddle.

Unless you upgrade the headunit, it's just not worth the hassle of a proper install!  In addition, if you fit a phone adaptor behind the head unit, you won't have room for much else behind there!

Keep us posted.
« Last Edit: 02 December 2006, 16:01:35 by Hillper »
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #25 on: 02 December 2006, 22:26:55 »

Quote
My advice to you is just fit a sub driven from two channels bridged.  Pick up speaker level feeds from the rear speaker wires under the plastic sill cover.  
High pass the door speakers and your headunit will instantly be able to drive them much harder.

If you really want to keep the original headunit, it's the easiest thing to do and you can concentrate on fitting the phone up front and the amp at the back, without getting in a muddle.

Unless you upgrade the headunit, it's just not worth the hassle of a proper install!  In addition, if you fit a phone adaptor behind the head unit, you won't have room for much else behind there!

Keep us posted.

So i would in effect by joining the speaker feeds from the amp to the rear speakers meaning id have 2 sets connected to the rear speakers? One being the original stereo speakers and the others being the amp stereo feeds?

So the brand new 4 channel amp ive had for a little while now is absolutely no use at all?

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Hillper

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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #26 on: 03 December 2006, 12:38:45 »

If you go the sub only route, you'll use two of the four amp channels bridged to drive the sub.  (See amp manual on brdiging).  So half the amp is wasted I'm afraid!

The headunit will continue to drive all four (highpassed) standard door speakers.

To connect the amp, find the rear speaker wires under the sill cover, just before they go into the rear door.
Strip back 10mm of insulation from both wires of the pair and crimp or solder extension wires to reach the amp in the boot.  Repeat on the other side of the car.  Use the same colours each side to keep the polarity the same.

The original wires are driving the speakers, you just tee into them under the sill.

You should high pass the speakers, as you can drive them harder.  Remember, if you have to turn the bass down to avoid distortion because of un-high passed speakers, you'll also be turning the sub bass down too.

Also, you must make sure the fader is set to provide enough output to the amp.  (Fade to the front and the sub will fade out).

All this is of course assumes your amp has decent quality high level inputs!  What model amp and sub are you using?
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MV6 Lee

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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #27 on: 03 December 2006, 19:18:38 »

Will the amp run ok only using 2 of its 4 channels then? Or do i risk destroying it as the power balance wont be right or something?

My amp is a Mutant NW480SP 4 channel, 4 x 80watt RMS with 2Ohm stable bridgeable, whatever that means. lol.

Looking online this is it here http://www.mutant.uk.com/nw480sp.html

And my sub is a Pile 1000w 12" one, which i purchased in a sub enclosure new as well.

Nothing mental, just wanted to add a bit of punch to the music really.

Would my amp be suitable?
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #28 on: 05 December 2006, 17:39:41 »

Im considering keeping this sub and just getting a twin 12" set, then i could bridge both channels and make them 2 could i not?

I wanna keep this amp as it cost a fair bit, and speaking with my bro he reckons i risk ruining the amp as it wont be running properly on 2 channels.... So, am i best just getting 2 12" subs in a twin (or 2 single) enclosures and wiring the amp to both them?

Also, what is recommended that is cheap, but will supply the extra punch i need? Im not one of these SPL types, or someone who listens to music at a million dB, but id like to life to my music!
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Re: Installing AMP, but keeping standard head unit
« Reply #29 on: 20 December 2006, 00:50:40 »

You can run sub inputs to both halves of the amp if you like, but it'll be quite happy using two of the four.  It will not harm it.

But really, just the one sub bridged across one amp set will be plenty loud, especially if you're keeping standard door speakers.

Try the setup you have and see what you think.  The sub is rated at 1000W.  Is that max. or rms?  If it's rms (which I doubt), the amp may be a bit underpowered.  
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