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[johnnydog]

Whilst attempting to locate a water leak into the drivers footwell, I noticed that the lower rubber moulding between the base of the screen and the scuttle was loose, albeit mainly on the passenger side. Removed the scuttle and found the hard plastic seat / retainer (90460336) was loose and could be moved away from the bottom edge of the screen, and didn't appear to 'grip' the edge of the glass.
Has anyone had any success in using some form of adhesive sealant in small dabs to keep it in place? The lower seat / retainer is just one piece. Can it be removed whilst the screen is in situ? Being hard plastic, it gets brittle over time, and appears to be held in at either end by a small metal clip visible at the end of the moulding.
Whether the loose seat making the rubber moulding loose is contributing, I'm not certain, but the drivers footwell is like a lake, even after this nice spell of weather, but the car has been standing for a while. It isnt coolant, definitely rain water. Currently got the carpet and foam up, just trying to find a source of the leak.
Any thoughts please?

[johnnydog]

Must have caught the 'bold' button.....

[Doctor Gollum]

The leak is almost certainly the cabin intake drain bei g blocked. If it isn't you have a hole somewhere.

The screen trim is partly decorative, and partly to help divert water into the scuttle drains.

The frame piece the rubber clips to is clipped to the side frames.

Proper removal, cleaning and refitting is a screen out job as the frames AND rubbers are fitted to the screen prior to fitting the screen. Removing and refitting it in situ will damage it, so it will never seat correctly again.

The issue is caused by not ensuring that the frame is correctly seated prior to refitting the scuttle... bearing in mind that the scuttle is fitted BEFORE the screen.

Sealant is a poor attempt to bodge something that should be done properly. Bear in mind that none of the above are fitted from the factory with any form of sealant or adhesive except for the actual screen glass to body bond... 

[johnnydog]

Is the 'cabin intake drain' under the pollen filter; the one that typically cause a wet passenger footwell, or is there one on the drivers side too that would result in water ingress into the drivers footwell?
As with many jobs, doing half a job or a 'bodge' isn't my ideal, but as the screen is good, but the lower retainer has lost some of its grip on the screen, before resorting to a screen out situation, I just wondered whether a couple of small blobs of say windscreen bonding may help to keep it in its correct place to then hold the moulding correctly?

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Yes, also a drain at the drivers side. Easier to get at too as it isn't obscured by anything.

[Doctor Gollum]

Last first, in a word no. For the reasons I gave earlier.

To clarify the frame will never fit properly again, and it's hard enough to get decent bits as it is.

As to a drivers footwell leak, unlikely to be a scuttle drain issue as that side drains to the inner wing.

Could be rot under the screen aperture or anywhere along that side of the bulkhead/pillar. Blocked sunroof drain, door seal or tear in the A postwhere the check strap has pulled out.

Heater matrix also leak to the right, but you make no mention of coolant loss or smell.

[johnnydog]

Yes, also a drain at the drivers side. Easier to get at too as it isn't obscured by anything.

Is it the 1" slot visible at the lower edge of the inner wheel arch bowl, on the cross member where it meets the bulkhead, more or less under the steering column?

[johnnydog]

tear in the A postwhere the check strap has pulled out.

Heater matrix also leak to the right, but you make no mention of coolant loss or smell.

Not likely to be a coolant leak as I stated in my first post.
The A post check strap welding has partly come adrift looking at it, so a temporary seal will rule that out before it can be done properly.

[Doctor Gollum]

Yup, and it's not connected to the drain bung in the scuttle with anything other than air. 

[Doctor Gollum]

tear in the A postwhere the check strap has pulled out.

Heater matrix also leak to the right, but you make no mention of coolant loss or smell.

Not likely to be a coolant leak as I stated in my first post.
The A post check strap welding has partly come adrift looking at it, so a temporary seal will rule that out before it can be done properly.

A reasonable use for rtv

[johnnydog]

Yesterday, I managed to successfully remove the lower retainer /seat without any damage to it or to the metal clips that sit at the ends of the side seats / retainers.
It was obvious the problem was it had lost its hold on the lower edge of the screen. I do have a full set of new VX retainers, but as it was just the one piece and wanting to keep the full set in case I ever need a new screen, I decided to clean it up and refit it. I used a product called Adiseal. Excellent stuff - the merest blob provides a near instant hold, but remains slightly flexible. It's not like silicon - far superior, and can be used on glass and hard plastics. Managed to replace the lower seat / retainer without issue, and now it is sitting nice and snugly, ready for fitment of the lower moulding.
Re the water ingress, the foam sound insulation is now dry, but the cause...?
The only evidence of previous damp ingress was a minor bit of rust on the metal bracket to bulkhead for the accelerator pedal. The only thing above nearby was one rubber wiring loom grommet, but no staining to the metal body work to the base of the screen. I found the bonnet release cable grommet through the bulkhead not seated properly. Just for good measure any component on the engine side of the bulkhead on the drivers side that passed through to the interior above the pedal area had a smear of Adiseal round the join; at least just to eliminate them.
Going to replace the scuttle trim and other bits removed to help gain some access to the bulkhead components leaving the interior trim until its rained so that I can check if the leak is still present or cured.
There is no evidence of corrosion to the base of the windscreen or the bulkhead - in fact the metal work is one of the best I've come across on an Omega, so still a little baffled......

[johnnydog]

Well, I have finally traced the most likely source for the water leak into the drivers footwell. After the first bit of rain yesterday, my footwell was quite wet again with water puddling in the lower recesses in the floor pan.
It was also clear to see the water was dripping from the top of the inner sill onto the floor pan. Tracing it back, I could see rain water that had run along the roof gutter, behind the metal trim in the door aperture that screws to the underside of the gutter and A pillar was coming out at the end of the trim, running down the A pillar to the inner door seal, where it ran over the edge of seal into the inside recess of the seal. It was then collecting at the lowest point before trickling down onto the inner sill onto the floor. This wouldn't have been visible previously as it would have come into the car under the sill cover.
I am assuming that the seal has lost its shape and therefore not making a good watertight seal with the door itself. Looking like a new seal or a good used one may hopefully cure it.
The topic below from many years ago outlines the same issue although the 'remedy' suggested was to seal up the gap at the base of the metal gutter trim where water runs onto the A pillar which surely would only cause a build up water behind the trim?? This can't be a good idea, surely?


http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=105419.msg1319787#msg1319787

[Doctor Gollum]

That trim has a seal against the body. Remove it to investigate further. 

[johnnydog]

The trim is off and it has sealant in the recess of the outside edge adjacent to the actual gutter, and a very thin strip seal commencing somewhere near to the start of the curve just before where the gutter finishes continuing down to the front edge. It is intact, and I assume the thin strip is to guide water towards the outer edge so that water comes out from under the trim on the outside edge towards the hinge . It may also function as an insulator for the trim against the body. The thin seal strip finishes spprox. 15mm from the end of the trim, which may then cause water exiting from the trim nearer to the seal. I still don't get why water is managing to get 'over' the seal though, and there are no splits tears or cracks.
I may extend the thin seal strip a little and try to build it up slightly, so that it is a tighter seal against the body.
Got a brand new genuine GM seal on its way anyway if all else fails....

[iansoutham]

Is your water coming in at the base of the door area, roughly in line with the speaker grille?

Reason is that I have just found this weekend a small section of my drivers u selfie carpet wet and there is a stain line in that area on the inner plastic sill trim at that point.

My first thought was coming through door at that point, but your problem sounds identical.

Do you have a picture of where you think the problem is on yours exactly?

[johnnydog]

I have now (hopefully!) traced how the water may have been getting over the rubber. Rain water from the gutter has been entering the underside of the metal trim sitting under the gutter in the door aperture as intended so that in theory it runs to the end of the trim by the A pillar with the help of the thin strip seal to keep it to the outer edge. At this point the A pillar is stepped, so that any water emerging at this point is kept to the hinge side rather than the rubber side and just runs off towards the bottom inside edge of the wing.
On mine, it seems that water was escaping from under the trim earlier than intended on the start of the downhill sweep (the part that runs adjacent to the edge of the windscreen). Due to the amount of water, it was then running vertically, over the rubber at 45 degrees, to the cabin side of the rubber, running down the inside edge of the rubber passing the end of the dashboard, and into the inner recess, where it collected in the bottom corner (by the 90 degree turn and the speaker) but now inside the recess where the edge of the footwell sill trim cover sits, it dripped down, either over or under the trim panel onto or under the carpet.
It still questions whether the door aperture seal to the door itself was not sealing well enough which allowed the water to pass between on its early exit from the trim under the roof gutter.
My car is always generally parked at home with the front end facing slightly downhill for what it is worth.
Hope all that makes sense!

[Doctor Gollum]

Check the paint behind the trim carefully.

The common rust spot on estates at the lower rear corner of the rear side window is caused by a combination of movement of the drain channel trim against the bodywork and a buildup of dirt and debris between the trim and the body, eventually rubbing the paint away and trapping moisture against bare metal...

At least you don't need to remove the door/window to get the door gutter trims off

[iansoutham]

It looks like it should just unscrew and tilt away from the gutter?

[Doctor Gollum]

It does, but on the estate you need to first remove the rear quarter glass... Which entails stripping half the interior...

[iansoutham]

Mine is front leak, not rear.

[Doctor Gollum]

Likewise Johnny's  I only mention the rear as the potential for corrosion damage behind the trim warrants proper investigation...

[iansoutham]

Likewise Johnny's  I only mention the rear as the potential for corrosion damage behind the trim warrants proper investigation...

Got you, understand now

[johnnydog]

Removal of the front section of the gutter trim is very easy - just remove the tiny cross headed screws, and ease it away a little from the body gently. The thin seal strip may have partially stuck, but once its free, the trim has to be moved forwards to clear the join between the two pieces above the black cover of the B pillar. The dirt needs cleaning from it at this point.
On mine, I noticied that in places the thin strip seal was its original thickness (approx 1mm), and in others virtually fully compressed. In order to keep any rain water to the outer side of the trim, , I ran some thin insulation tape either side of the seal to create a channel, then put some of my 'well chuffed with'  Adiseal in the channel above the seal strip, then smoothed it off. The result raised the strip seal about 0.5mm but took into account the compressed sections and would create hopefully a waterproof guide for the water to run it to the outer edge of the A pillar when running out from behind the trim. The 'new' seal doesn't need to be too thick or the trim won't sit properly. We will see......
The paintwork on the car under the trim was very good - some contact marks which I may put a dab of Supertrol onto, as well as the screw threads, before reassembly.

[Doctor Gollum]

As a precaution, the Supertrol is a good idea

The 'movement' in the trim is down to body flex, so any consequential wear will occur largely unnoticed...

[iansoutham]

Will look at all that this weekend hopefully, have a few idea depending on what I find....

Then all I need to do is sort out the rattle in the drivers door that has been there since I have had it (almost like a slightly loose door latch)

[Doctor Gollum]

Possibly a control rod not clipped in following a lock motor/regulator change

[johnnydog]

It also could be from the top corner of the door card near the push locking button. If the door card has been removed previously, the plastic retainer that clips into the door by the inside door glass rubber usually comes away from the inside of the door card and needs 'gorilla gluing' back in place. This causes an annoying rattling noise.
Easy way to tell is to just try to move the door card at the top rearmost corner. If it is loose, it needs repairing as above.

[iansoutham]

No, door cars was glued a few years ago. Rod is fine, it is more like the catch in the latch is worn as if you lean against the door it appears to stop. Adjusting the striker makes no difference

[johnnydog]

Going back to the topic of the water leak, I have applied some Sonax GummiPfleger rubber treatment the drivers doorseals. It is supposed to help protect, nourish and feed rubber seals to increase their suppleness, and help reduce leaks, squeaks and subsequent cracking. Has good reviews and isn't particularly expensive. Worth a try whilst I'm at it....

[iansoutham]

The Gummipfledge is very good at keeping seals supple and preventing noises (VX actually use it in Astra H folding tops seals as part of a TIS action). I have various tubes of it for different applications and normally apply to all door seals on my cars every couple of cleans and monthly during very cold weather as it helps prevent seals sticking in very cold weather.

[johnnydog]

The 'movement' in the trim is down to body flex, so any consequential wear will occur largely unnoticed...

The movement of this trim that causes the minor abrasion marks / contact marks is actually down to the slight upwards movement of the trim when the top seal on the door frame contacts it on shutting the door and therefore compressing the thin strip seal behind the trim against the door aperture, which in turn forms a tight seal for the water to run on the outer side to the A pillar. Checked my other Omegas and slight movement of this trim can be seen on shutting the front doors...
The 'newly formed' seal on mine seems to work a treat - the slight upwards movement compresses the new seal sufficiently to prevent water escaping before the end of the trim.
After the battering of heavy rain last night, I am glad to say, the drivers floor pan is bone dry  No trace of any water on the door seal rubber . I had put a rolled up piece of kitchen roll taped just below the top edge of the sill, rather than on the floor by the sill - this would have shown if rain water had come in over the sill edge from the door side or down the bulkhead, but success, it would seem - none had come in. The rain drives on the drivers side as well....
Incidentally, the lower windscreen moulding slotted into the newly attached retainer perfectly, assisted by the merest wipe of brake rubber grease to the tongue, and it sits snugly all the way along the windscreen and scuttle. Plus, the scuttle foam was nice and dry too after all the heavy rain last night.
Going to leave it until after the weekend just to be certain as more rain is forecast tonight and tomorrow, before putting the carpets / insulation back down on Monday.
But I'm quietly confident its cured....
Oh, how I hate water leaks....

[iansoutham]

Well done, had a look at the same on my one today. Washed the car yesterday and then run some water down the pillar area with some dye in it and did exactly as said.

Removed the trim today and the seal was collapsed and completely blocked up as well which inevitably causes the issue.

All cleaned and replaced using a thin double-sided closed foam tape so definitely sealed, but still removable should I need to.

[johnnydog]

Good to hear that you have also hopefully sourced the leak from the same fault with the upper door aperture trim / gutter trim 
I have not seen any mention of this source of a leak before on the forum before so hopefully it may help others in the future. Equally, this could also affect the passenger side as well, although wet carpets there are usually attributed (maybe incorrectly in some cases) to the scuttle drain......

[johnnydog]

Maybe I spoke too soon......after the weeks of dry weather, and finding one source of rainwater running from under the gutter trim moulding onto and round the edge of the inner edge of the door seal, onto the sill and under the carpet, and soaking the insulation, after the short spells of recent rain, all seemed well, until now.
I had raised the insulation about 4" off the floor in the drivers footwell with blocks so that any further rain ingress wouldn't soak the insulation all over again when it next rained heavily if not cured.
Being raised, the insulation had formed the shape of a small bowl; the lowest point being around the bonnet release. After the last heavy rain - full of water The insulation behind the pedals was bone dry so it was not coming from the bulkhead area or base of the windscreen.
I changed the door seal for a known good used one as a test having removed the A pillar cover and front part of the roof lining trim. There was a water stain on the lowest point of the A pillar cover. I stuck rolled up pieces of kitchen roll round the front edges of the door seal, in the A pillar holes touching the drain tubes, and around the edge of the windscreen. It then rained gently a couple of days ago, and it was all bone dry, including the kitchen roll.
After the heavy rain tonight....water was found on top of the air con trunking which would be under the drivers seat, and outer seat mounting rail.
Neighbours must think I'm cracked - I've been sitting in the back seat of my car at midnight, with a torch, in a rain storm..?
Good news - with the trim now removed, the leak was obvious. In heavy / prolonged rain, it was dripping off the lowest points of the headlining, above where the A pillar cover would sit. Hence the water stain on the cover, the collection of water in the lifted insulation under the bonnet release as the cover had been acting as a channel, and why the water was running down the inside of the lower section of the door seal 
I'm presuming now that it is from the sunroof, but would a blocked drain cause this? Would this cause water to get on the top side of the headlining to leak out near the A pillar? I can't see water leaking from the upper edge of the windscreen bonding would run in effect backwards to the headlining? It would run down surely? All the headlining round the sunroof appears dry to the touch with no outward water stains.  The tissue I stuffed in the holes in the A pillar around the drain tubes is dry,  indicating that the tubes are still attached and not leaking.
Is it worth dropping the head lining to see if the fault is obvious?
To check the drain holes, can I manually wind the sunroof back sufficiently, as I have separated the loom by the drivers kick panel, and removed the drivers seat, so connecting the battery to open the sunroof is a big no no.....
Sorry for the long winded post, but just to put all my findings out there for your thoughts about the source of the leak....please.....

[Doctor Gollum]

Headlining out and check the roof drains thoroughly 

[johnnydog]

Headlining out and check the roof drains thoroughly 

Can you clarify a little more please?
What would I be looking for in the sunroof drains that would be assisted by dropping the head lining? A leak around the drain outlet to rubber pipe possibly or poor pipe connection?
Is there any other seal or way that water can get to the top side of the headlining other than via the drains holes? ie if the drain holes are blocked, then where would the rain water go to considering there are no visible leaks inside by the sunroof itself or would it just basically overflow onto the headlining? The main drip is by the front grab handle mounting, and lesser drip by the top of the A pillar. But maybe the water is just running over the inside fabric and not showing itself....
As I asked previously, can the sunroof be wound back sufficiently manually to check all drain holes (as there is no power to it).
I appreciate the response of just 'drop the headlining and check roof drains thoroughly', but maybe a bit more clarification with your reasoning..??
TIA

[Doctor Gollum]

Forcing rods down the brittle plastic drain pipes can cause cracking and you can't check they're correctly fitted without seeing them.

Also, what you are trying to do without getting a clear look is akin to identifying the source of a roof leak from the room below the loft.

Also, removing the headlining will give you a chance to also dry that out.

That's three good reasons to remove it...

[Doctor Gollum]

Forcing rods down the brittle plastic drain pipes can cause cracking and you can't check they're correctly fitted without seeing them.

Also, what you are trying to do without getting a clear look is akin to identifying the source of a roof leak from the room below the loft.

Also, removing the headlining will give you a chance to also dry that out.

That's three good reasons to remove it...

To further answer your other questions,

Yes the roof can be operated manually, instructions in the owners manual. (No excuses as there's a free download to the entire thing here).

If the drains are blocked then yes the water would overflow into the headlining.

If the drains were previously blocked, then unsympathetic clearance can do alot of damage, all unseen.

You'll be surprised by how much moisture lives above the headlining with no sign.

That you can see water dripping into the cabin suggests more than condensation so warrants the couple of hours work to remove the headlining in order to investigate it properly.

Easier on an estate, but it should come out through the boot with some careful jiggling, and the guide is pretty comprehensive if i do say so myself and applies to all models. 

[johnnydog]

Thanks for the additional info. I don't know whether the drains have been cleared previously prior to me getting the car and damage caused, but this leak has been going on for some time by the look of it, and gone unnoticied apart from the serious condensation issues I used to get which may be I should have looked into previously
I have read the handbook instructions 're operating the sunroof manually - I was just presuming all the same movements of the panel can be carried out manually as electrically.
I have also read the headlining removal 'how to' which is very clear and specific ( ). I might just be tempted to replace the aerial base too whilst l'm in there.....

[Doctor Gollum]

 

Also affords the opportunity to relocate/fix the parking sensor speaker. Which is nice

[johnnydog]

Finally found the main culprit for the water leak into the drivers footwell. Dropped the complete headlining (removed from the car quite easily as the drivers seat was out) and there was a massive water stain on the top side with the culprit lying rusting away in two pieces....
The metal spring clip that retains the flange connector fom the sunroof outlet drain was broken and the connector was loose. It is kept water tight with an O ring under tension from the clip. The drain pipe is a push fit onto the flange connector. It looks like this has been loose for some considerable time and water was working its way down from the top of the headlining via the A pillar trim giving false indications of leaks elsewhere. The gutter trim did need resealing so it wasn't all in vain.
These clips (and the flange connector) now NLS, so a trip to the local scrappers today got a couple of clips and flanges (worth having a spare).
Check both drains were free using a flexible inner speedo cable from an old Triumph which is ideal as it just follows any curve in the pipe.
All back connected - just going to wait for a downpour to check the handywork before putting the headlining back.
A friggin' tiny clip causing all that....

[Doctor Gollum]

Job mostly jobbed

What about the rear drains?

[johnnydog]

They appear intact / secure, with no problems with the clips.  There was no evidence of any leak at the rear. Later today, I intend to remove the rear flange connectors, clean the outlets, O rings and flange, check the drains are clear and reassemble.
If all is good, happy days! 

[Doctor Gollum]

 

Alcantara headlining upgrade whilst you're at it? 

[johnnydog]

Probably pass on that one...!   

[johnnydog]

Just to finally put this topic to bed, the rear drains, flanges / O rings on the rear of the sunroof also checked / cleaned and refitted.
After the heavy battering of rain we had 'up north' last night, I am quietly chuffed that the interior was 'bone dry' with not a 'tear drop' of water anywhere.
It's a great feeling of satisfaction when after weeks of faffing about chasing water leaks, it finally gets sorted.
Thanks for all the input on the different issues dealt with before finally finding the true culprit