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Sir Tigger KC

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Ukraine
« on: 14 April 2014, 13:38:49 »

Some of these protesters and 'Pro-Russian Activists' as they're being called look remarkably well equipped for a rag tag militia.  ::)

Part 2 of Putin's plan for world domination I think.  :(
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1 on: 14 April 2014, 14:15:22 »

Putin has been taking the piss out of the western leaders for years.
Said before, the cold war never finished. It just warmed up for a while.
If it is true that a agreement was made back in 1990 during the unification of east and west Germany that there would be no further encroachment east by Europe / NATO then he has every right to be pissed off.
You can bet your life savings on a series of Russian friendly independent states being formed in between the western side of Ukraine and the Russian border over the next few years by hook or crook with the hand of the FSB at the helm.
Putin will get his buffer and I don't think the west will lift a hand to help the Kiev government out.
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2 on: 14 April 2014, 14:32:32 »

Putin has been taking the piss out of the western leaders for years.
Said before, the cold war never finished. It just warmed up for a while.
If it is true that a agreement was made back in 1990 during the unification of east and west Germany that there would be no further encroachment east by Europe / NATO then he has every right to be pissed off.
You can bet your life savings on a series of Russian friendly independent states being formed in between the western side of Ukraine and the Russian border over the next few years by hook or crook with the hand of the FSB at the helm.
Putin will get his buffer and I don't think the west will lift a hand to help the Kiev government out.
Sounds about right.  :y
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3 on: 14 April 2014, 18:30:16 »

If you want to make a lot of money then gas storage is the business to be in. Particularly in Western Europe.

The only think currently in favour of the West "new EU" countries is that they have just come out of winter.

I think you are right that Nato won't open fire to help Kiev. There will be plenty of finger lifting and words.

All very sad. Yet another reason for Britain to leave the EU and to bolster its Trident capability.  Three years ago I would never have said that about Trident. 
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Rods2

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4 on: 14 April 2014, 20:12:12 »

Yes, my understanding is that he is trying to make a very weak divided Ukraine to keep the country neutered and under Russia's thumb. This does not just apply to Ukraine, but also looks like it is becoming a strategy for other satellite countries.  >:( >:( >:( >:(

There is very little support in Ukraine for autonomous regions or the division of the country, with polls showing between 1 and 2% support for this. Even in the Donetsk, the most Russian looking Oblast there is only about 20% support for more local governance. >:( >:( >:( >:(

The terrorists that are attacking police stations are led and equipped by Russian special forces along with 5th column locals who have been recruited and trained by Russia since 2010 Yanukovych's election and with his agreement. Russia is trying to federalise the east to make it weak and divided and under their control with puppet regional governments. They are being supported to a degree, or through out and out self interest by local, east based, oligarchies that earn most of their money exporting to Russia.

The threat of a Russian invasion is just that and would be a last resort. 60%+ in all of the Eastern regions are ethnic Ukrainians and the majority of Ethnic Russians consider Ukraine their country and are against any divisions. Yes, they would win the war, but their would be pretty universal hostility to an army of occupation and they would over time lose the peace, like they did in Afghanistan.

The fact that the interim government is looking at a nationwide referendum on the future of Ukraine, would hopefully reduce all of this Russian nonsense, like it has with Gibraltar (Spain) and the Falkland Islands (mad woman Argentinian president), but being able to carry out that or the elections on the 25th May are looking more and more difficult. Again it is in Russia's interest to disrupt these as a newly elected government then has full legitimacy. This is why the interim government does not want to declare a state of emergency as it would mean postponing the elections.

Interesting that previous polls on Crimea joining Russia before their invasion, including one by Gallup were 37% and 40% and the real figure before any Putin adjustment, from a Russian source was 37%, not 95%!

The Russian controlled terrorists are trying to make the federalization of Ukraine into Autonomous regions, look like the only solution to western governments. William Hague and US politicians, especially the US UN ambassador who doesn't pull any punches, are I think and hope wise to this. But words are very different to physical actions on the ground and the US with its liberal controlled government is very weak with its responses. I think Reagan and Margaret Thatcher would have reacted much more robustly which is what you need to do with dictators, who given an inch will take a 1000 miles!

In pro-Russian demonstrations the protesters have been small in numbers of less than 1000. There was a very big pro-Ukraine rally in Kharkiv over the weekend.

If you want to know what is going on then this website is used by many newspapers to keep up to date:

http://www.interpretermag.com/

A good analysis blog by a world renowned British expert on Russia and Eastern Europe, who was called in for a presentation and briefing of MPs on the Ukraine situation a few weeks ago is here:

http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/?s=the+shadow+of+Moscow

Like all situations, I like to get information from as many sources as possible, so I can be as objective as possible with opinions, this is always more difficult when geopolitics are at the fore. Of course I have a pro-Ukrainian bias and proud of it.  :y :y :y :y

Looking at the bigger picture Russia is now a big threat to world peace and needs to be contained. Dictators have a nasty habit of over playing their hands and starting major conflicts, which they then lose, but with much suffering, death and destruction in between. >:( >:( >:( >:(
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tigers_gonads

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #5 on: 14 April 2014, 21:06:54 »

Yes, my understanding is that he is trying to make a very weak divided Ukraine to keep the country neutered and under Russia's thumb. This does not just apply to Ukraine, but also looks like it is becoming a strategy for other satellite countries.  >:( >:( >:( >:(

There is very little support in Ukraine for autonomous regions or the division of the country, with polls showing between 1 and 2% support for this. Even in the Donetsk, the most Russian looking Oblast there is only about 20% support for more local governance. >:( >:( >:( >:(

The terrorists that are attacking police stations are led and equipped by Russian special forces along with 5th column locals who have been recruited and trained by Russia since 2010 Yanukovych's election and with his agreement. Russia is trying to federalise the east to make it weak and divided and under their control with puppet regional governments. They are being supported to a degree, or through out and out self interest by local, east based, oligarchies that earn most of their money exporting to Russia.

The threat of a Russian invasion is just that and would be a last resort. 60%+ in all of the Eastern regions are ethnic Ukrainians and the majority of Ethnic Russians consider Ukraine their country and are against any divisions. Yes, they would win the war, but their would be pretty universal hostility to an army of occupation and they would over time lose the peace, like they did in Afghanistan.

The fact that the interim government is looking at a nationwide referendum on the future of Ukraine, would hopefully reduce all of this Russian nonsense, like it has with Gibraltar (Spain) and the Falkland Islands (mad woman Argentinian president), but being able to carry out that or the elections on the 25th May are looking more and more difficult. Again it is in Russia's interest to disrupt these as a newly elected government then has full legitimacy. This is why the interim government does not want to declare a state of emergency as it would mean postponing the elections.

Interesting that previous polls on Crimea joining Russia before their invasion, including one by Gallup were 37% and 40% and the real figure before any Putin adjustment, from a Russian source was 37%, not 95%!

The Russian controlled terrorists are trying to make the federalization of Ukraine into Autonomous regions, look like the only solution to western governments. William Hague and US politicians, especially the US UN ambassador who doesn't pull any punches, are I think and hope wise to this. But words are very different to physical actions on the ground and the US with its liberal controlled government is very weak with its responses. I think Reagan and Margaret Thatcher would have reacted much more robustly which is what you need to do with dictators, who given an inch will take a 1000 miles!

In pro-Russian demonstrations the protesters have been small in numbers of less than 1000. There was a very big pro-Ukraine rally in Kharkiv over the weekend.

If you want to know what is going on then this website is used by many newspapers to keep up to date:

http://www.interpretermag.com/

A good analysis blog by a world renowned British expert on Russia and Eastern Europe, who was called in for a presentation and briefing of MPs on the Ukraine situation a few weeks ago is here:

http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/?s=the+shadow+of+Moscow

Like all situations, I like to get information from as many sources as possible, so I can be as objective as possible with opinions, this is always more difficult when geopolitics are at the fore. Of course I have a pro-Ukrainian bias and proud of it.  :y :y :y :y

Looking at the bigger picture Russia is now a big threat to world peace and needs to be contained. Dictators have a nasty habit of over playing their hands and starting major conflicts, which they then lose, but with much suffering, death and destruction in between. >:( >:( >:( >:(
[/highlight]



Yup, I bet there are a few arses twitching in Estonia, Latvia, Belarus and Lithuania at the moment  :(

But don't worry about it lads, we have about 17 combat ships left in the royal navy, about 50 front line combat aircraft left if we can get them serviceable  :-X  >:(  and most of the army have PVR'd or being made redundant but don't worry, we should still be safe from the mighty ivan  >:( >:(
All we need now is for the jocks to kick us out of faslane next year and we may as well flog the trident systems on ebay because we won't have anywhere to put them  :(

Then again, we could always stash them is a hanger somewhere until we need them as seems to be normal practice nowdays  ::)
Sorry, forgot all the spare sheds have been taken up by all the surplus equipment from the Germany, Iraq, Libya,
Afghanistan days so they ain't any room  >:( >:(

« Last Edit: 14 April 2014, 21:09:51 by tigers_gonads »
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Rods2

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #6 on: 14 April 2014, 22:23:56 »

Not to mention that we only have 200 tanks, which is less than Switzerland.  :( :( :( :(

But our armed forces are world leaders in the sex discrimination and 'elf n safety payout system and troop safety, where senior officer will get prosecuted in the future if they lead them somewhere dangerous, for which they are not 100% equipped to deal with. :o :o :o :o >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #7 on: 14 April 2014, 22:32:56 »

I thought a US Senator summed it up well on Obama's initial response to the Crimea crisis. Putin's playing chess, we are playing marbles.

I think the Democrats will get their asses well and truly kicked in November's mid-term elections. Carter found that out over Iran the average US voter does not like after all of the US tax dollars they have contributed to the defense budget to see the country humiliated by a chancer running a lessor foreign country.
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #8 on: 14 April 2014, 22:43:29 »

Just watched the BBC news where they did quite a long piece on the situation in Eastern Ukraine.  They portrayed it as a popular uprising, until the end when as a footnote they said that the protests were orchestrated by a small number of people!  ::)
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #9 on: 15 April 2014, 19:32:38 »

This article I thought summed up better in a few sentences "what Putin has achieved so far?" than any other article I have seen.

"Putin could have “won” this crisis by never starting it."

"Putin had gotten just about everything he wanted from Ukraine, including a leader in Kyiv who practically had “Property of the Kremlin” stamped on his forehead."

"Putin’s attempt to force the Russia-or-Europe choice down Yanukovich’s throat was irrational overreach by the Russian President that provoked the Euromaidan movement – exactly the reaction Putin didn’t want."

"Enraged by Yanukovich’s ouster, and he reacted with visceral anger, setting in motion events whose end are nowhere in sight even for Putin himself. The Russian invasion of Crimea is now endangering things Putin values – like Russian economic stability purely so he claim something – a base and a military presence in Crimea – he already had."

http://thefederalist.com/2014/04/14/vladimir-putin-is-not-the-president-of-sim-city/
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05omegav6

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #10 on: 15 April 2014, 23:31:20 »

Brilliant inspired... is Putin related to George W perchance ::)
« Last Edit: 15 April 2014, 23:35:37 by Taxi Al »
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #11 on: 16 April 2014, 18:02:38 »

Brilliant inspired... is Putin related to George W perchance ::)

Obama is a cross between Carter and a dove. If he was French he would be saying we will put up a robust defence, by the way Washington DC is an open city.  ::) ::) ::)

Still I think he will pay the price in the mid-term elections and who the next president will be, as the Americans don't spend all their hard earned tax dollars on defense to suffer global humiliation. Even when the Russian air force does the equivalent of a two fingered salute, by making low passes over a USN ship, they just let it past rather than summoning the Russian ambassador.  :(

All this matters as the world has now changed from the previous western assumption that Russia would play by the rules of International Law / UN consensus to if we are strong enough and the west is weak enough we will grab all we can. This has overtures of the 1930's German land grab and appeasement and we all know what happened after that. :( :( :( :(

Putin is already causing problems in Estonia, where the Baltics will be the next flashpoint. Then real decisions will have to be made. If the west then backs down NATO is finished and we will be another big step forward towards WWIII.  :( :( :( :(
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #12 on: 17 April 2014, 12:57:44 »

Mystic Sarah calls it right 6 years ago  ;)

You might not like her but she certainly doesn't kiss anybody's arse   ;D

We could do with her teaming up with our Nige in Europe.
What a team  ;D

 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/sarah-palin-predicted-in-2008-that-putin-would-invade-ukraine-if-obama-was-elected-9167833.html
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #13 on: 17 April 2014, 13:57:37 »

Anybody else hear Obama say " we can beat you in a conventional war"!! Not quite what I wanted to hear him say.
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #14 on: 17 April 2014, 22:35:57 »

Anybody else hear Obama say " we can beat you in a conventional war"!! Not quite what I wanted to hear him say.

No country comes close to the US in terms of quantity and quality of conventional weapons, equipment, logistics and battlefield data sharing and comms. We have seen Russian aircraft up against F15's and F16's in the Bekaa Valley in Syria. It was called a turkey shoot with good reason 82 Syrian MIGs shot down and 19 SAM batteries destroyed for no loss. The tactics and success here in 1982 paved the way for the Gulf war success in 1991.
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #15 on: 17 April 2014, 23:40:31 »

Anybody else hear Obama say " we can beat you in a conventional war"!! Not quite what I wanted to hear him say.

No country comes close to the US in terms of quantity and quality of conventional weapons, equipment, logistics and battlefield data sharing and comms. We have seen Russian aircraft up against F15's and F16's in the Bekaa Valley in Syria. It was called a turkey shoot with good reason 82 Syrian MIGs shot down and 19 SAM batteries destroyed for no loss. The tactics and success here in 1982 paved the way for the Gulf war success in 1991.


which model syrian migs driven by who ::)


although changing from weapon to weapon  in quality (so not sure)  but in quantity terms China or (NOT AND)  Russia can out number  US in many kinds of weapons.. but lets hope the day when they prove which is better remains unseen.. because most of us wont be that lucky to see the end  :(



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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #16 on: 18 April 2014, 02:21:01 »

Syrian Mig 21 and Mig 23's, which are not match for F15's and F16's. Aerodynamically Mig29 and Su27 / Su35 maybe, but they are still at a big disadvantage compared to the US fighters in terms of pilot cockpit ergonomics, shared target designation and handoff, warning systems and weapons. F-22 and F-35 no point in going there as the Russians don't have an in production 6th generation fighter, they will have shot down the Russian aircraft, without being seen. Not that I would want to get into a dogfight with an F35 as its aerodynamic performance is poor compared to an F16, F18 or Typhoon, let alone an SU35, but the point is that with its long range shoot to kill capability, it won't have to.
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #17 on: 18 April 2014, 11:17:47 »

Syrian Mig 21 and Mig 23's, which are not match for F15's and F16's. Aerodynamically Mig29 and Su27 / Su35 maybe, but they are still at a big disadvantage compared to the US fighters in terms of pilot cockpit ergonomics, shared target designation and handoff, warning systems and weapons. F-22 and F-35 no point in going there as the Russians don't have an in production 6th generation fighter, they will have shot down the Russian aircraft, without being seen. Not that I would want to get into a dogfight with an F35 as its aerodynamic performance is poor compared to an F16, F18 or Typhoon, let alone an SU35, but the point is that with its long range shoot to kill capability, it won't have to.


they are prehistoric Rods..  you can compare them to f4 or f104
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #18 on: 18 April 2014, 13:53:11 »

Nothing wrong with the Mig 21
A very good aircraft in the right hands and if it has been breathed on by the Israeli avionics industry, it is pretty much as good as anything close in par the F22, Typhoon and Rafale for a tenth of the price  ;)

The F16 is nothing more than a 21st century Phantom with one engine since the yanks insisted on weighing it down with 2 ton of fancy electronics and bombing systems  :(

The Su27 is a match and maybe more for the F15 and F18 due to its greater combat load and variety of missiles.
The Su35 would wipe the floor with anything other that the F22 (which can't fly above 40000 ft without killing the pilot), the Typhoon and Rafale if you let it get within missile range  :(

Our CCC is probably better but the Russians are not that far behind.
The Russians have a air to air missile which is specifically designed to wipe out CCC type assets.
It would only take a few one way trips to take out our CCC and we would be blind.

Okay, Nato might out gun Russia but it is not a nato fight  ;)
If anybody went to the Ukrainians side it would have to be us and the French because the yanks under Obama haven't got the balls for a fight.

Sorry, best the Ukraine gets used to the idea of putin and his chums controlling the eastern side of the country because they ain't getting it back  :( 
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #19 on: 18 April 2014, 20:03:41 »

Nobody is going to fight a war over Ukraine. I don't think Putin will invade the East, except as a very last resort, as he has very little to gain and a lot to lose if Ukrainians in the East set up a resistance movement where they are the majority. An ungovernable, weak and poor Ukraine will suit Putin just fine. :(
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #20 on: 18 April 2014, 20:20:22 »

Nobody is going to fight a war over Ukraine. I don't think Putin will invade the East, except as a very last resort, as he has very little to gain and a lot to lose if Ukrainians in the East set up a resistance movement where they are the majority. An ungovernable, weak and poor Ukraine will suit Putin just fine. :(


I think you right on that Rod  :(

The thing that does worry me is the way the west thinks it can talk down to Russia.
The last thing you do is push a bear into a corner then prod it with sticks  :(

I fear it will kick off in the medium term and then a whole lot of shit is going to hit the fan  :(
Western governments come and go every 5 years or so but Putin needs to feel like he is in control or somebody may challenge him back at home.
That would be scary
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #21 on: 19 April 2014, 00:23:53 »

still too early to talk the results and consequences.. only time will tell..
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #22 on: 19 April 2014, 15:24:25 »

This is what a former aid to Putin thinks of the Geneva agreement. He considers it worse than Chamberlains Munich agreement in 1938!

http://www.interpretermag.com/betrayal-of-ukraine-in-geneva-worse-than-munich-illarionov-says/

But is the law of unintended consequences about to start biting Putin's ass? Where his treatment of ethnic Russians in Ukraine is raising ethnic tensions in Russia itself.

http://www.interpretermag.com/three-post-crimea-moves-on-the-russian-federation-nationalities-front/
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #23 on: 22 April 2014, 20:54:55 »

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #24 on: 22 April 2014, 21:13:04 »

A strategic withdrawal and full engagement/cooperation with The West might result in a rise in living standards in Ukraine, that could result in the Eastern states and Crimea wishing to rejoin Ukraine.  :-\

However, the Eastern states of Ukraine should be careful for what they wish for and think of how Russia treats it's own separatist states.  Chechnya.  :o  :(

I don't think The West would encourage such a policy as it may well encourage Putin to cast his eye over other former Soviet states!  ::)
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