Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: terry paget on 01 April 2018, 11:08:22
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This is the car I am preparing for MOT. I reported last week about a poor idle; did a diagnostic check, both lambda sensors were steady on 'lean', so I have changed the first lambda sensor and the MAF meter. Nothing has changed. I now suspect massive induction system air leak. I have been here before on a 2.5 after I trapped an O-ring replacing the plenum. The question for me is where is it on a 2.2. I suppose the whole breather system is supect, and the whole induction tract from air cleaner onwards.
Any tips most gratefully received.
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What is the maf reading?
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Any steam from the exhaust Terry?
My 2.2 was rough only at idle and it was due to a HG fail
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Check all the rubber hoses connected to the throttle body... probably a simple air leak ;)
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What is the maf reading?
At 2000rpm steady running on all four22Kg/h, 1.35v;
at a hesitant idle (firing on 2?) 16Kg/h 1.00v.
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At idle, sounds high.
What is the LTFT doing?
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Check all the rubber hoses connected to the throttle body... probably a simple air leak ;)
Presumably the coil pack is dry and happy... :y
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I checked all the induction hoses for cracks or leaks, but could find none. So I moved on to checking the compressions on all cylinders. There was some oil in 3 & 4 but I ignored that, and did not siphon it out before the tests. The results surprised me.
No. 1 13.5bar
No. 2 13.6 bar
No. 3 18 bar
No. 4 20bar.
Perhaps I should have siphoned the oil out from above the plugs first.
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You think... ::)
Still, at least you now know why it's misfiring...
Sort the camcover, change the plugs, check the coil pack and report back :y
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check the small breather pipe from the cam cover blow down it. if blocked clean it out. i changed the pipe on mine went to mush and just blocked up. also changed the t bar on the vacuum line as the rubbers were leaking, misfire went after that. changed all the rubber links on the vacuum lines, so they all new now. and the breather line for the air vent for the tank.
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You think... ::)
Still, at least you now know why it's misfiring...
Sort the camcover, change the plugs, check the coil pack and report back :y
Thanks Doc. I was about to enquire - could the oil in plug wells 3 & 4 have caused the low speed misfiring? I was hoping you might think it worth while to replace the cam cover gaskets, coil pack and plugs and try again.
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That is exactly what I would do :y
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Any steam from the exhaust Terry?
My 2.2 was rough only at idle and it was due to a HG fail
Thanks for the suggestion, James. I suspect you are right, having changed MAF sensor and first lambda sensor I was at a loss to sort my emissions. I looked in vain for a major inlet air leak, and found none. I was in the process of checking head gasket by compression when I stumbled across oil in plug wells. It's so easy correcting the oil in plug wells first that it's worth the effort.
I suppose I should remove my good cat section (just fitted) before I fire the engine up with new plugs and cam cover gasket, to avoid all that oil poisoning it. Bother.
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Once the cat is up to temp it'll burn off any oil etc.
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Any steam from the exhaust Terry?
My 2.2 was rough only at idle and it was due to a HG fail
Thanks for the suggestion, James. I suspect you are right, having changed MAF sensor and first lambda sensor I was at a loss to sort my emissions. I looked in vain for a major inlet air leak, and found none. I was in the process of checking head gasket by compression when I stumbled across oil in plug wells. It's so easy correcting the oil in plug wells first that it's worth the effort.
I suppose I should remove my good cat section (just fitted) before I fire the engine up with new plugs and cam cover gasket, to avoid all that oil poisoning it. Bother.
Terry, I had oil in the plug wells and it was down to blocked breather pipes from the cam cover. Cleaned throttle body and pipes and it cured the misfire and the oil leak. It must have been a build up of pressure causing the oil leak on my Desmond.
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Being a 2.2 does not stop it being an Omega... ::)
All the petrol Omegas share most of the same issues. The only significant differences are that the four cylinder cars don't suffer particularly with water collecting in the plug wells from the scuttle and the V6 cam sensor failure does not upset the auto box and crankshaft sensor failure does not prevent the four cylinder from starting...
Coolant leaks are almost always hbv or radiator, oil leaks are always breather related (top end) or sump gasket/crank seals (bottom end), handling issues are always highlighted by failed front wishbone vertical bushes... etc, etc
Head gasket is a red herring in this case... Were it a V6, it wouldn't even be mentioned, even though the 3.0 is at least as prone to it.
Clean the breathers, sort the camcover leak and service it, just like you would any V6 Omega and report back.
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I changed the cat section 9 days ago. Easy job removing the old aftermarket one, but much trickier installing the much heavier Vx system. I would not have done the job had the engine been stalling at idle. When son Jonny brought the car home for MOT preparation it was running and idling perfectly. It was starting, running and idling fine nine days ago. The stalling and bad idling began late last week. I changed MAF sensor and front lambda sensor, hoping that would cure it - no luck. Something serious has gone wrong in the last five days
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aside from the missfire / fouled plugs etc.....which needs sorting
worth checking that you have not disturbed a tight seal on the zorst manifold to head (while working on the cat)
a blowing zorst manifold gasket will also suck un-metered air via the egr port
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aside from the missfire / fouled plugs etc.....which needs sorting
worth checking that you have not disturbed a tight seal on the zorst manifold to head (while working on the cat)
a blowing zorst manifold gasket will also suck un-metered air via the egr port
What's the zorst manifold? My Haynes index ends at X.
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aside from the missfire / fouled plugs etc.....which needs sorting
worth checking that you have not disturbed a tight seal on the zorst manifold to head (while working on the cat)
a blowing zorst manifold gasket will also suck un-metered air via the egr port
What's the zorst manifold? My Haynes index ends at X.
Slang for Exhaust.
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Thank you. I don't think I mentioned it, but there is quite a crack in the exhaust manifold, which apart from making a noise, will allow entry of air, thus inbalancing the exhaust mixture. All bad news. I have seen this before in 4 cylinder Omegas, one more reason always to buy V6s.
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explains your lean condition :D
same 2.2 engine in some .....
vauxhall & Opel Astra G; Astra H; Signum; Vectra B; Vectra C; Zafira (A); Zafira B
careful you don't order the 2.2 diesel manifold if buying off the net or traveling to collect
assuming the manifold is the same for front and rear wheel drive :-\
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Info wrong...
Not the same engine in later, ie 2005 on Vauxhalls... That is a very different chain driven beast...
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Info wrong...
Not the same engine in later, ie 2005 on Vauxhalls... That is a very different chain driven beast...
I stand corrected :-[
i'm going to get bits off a 2.2 2002 facelift sport tomorrow, i could inquire about the cost ?
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Being a 2.2 does not stop it being an Omega... ::)
All the petrol Omegas share most of the same issues. The only significant differences are that the four cylinder cars don't suffer particularly with water collecting in the plug wells from the scuttle and the V6 cam sensor failure does not upset the auto box and crankshaft sensor failure does not prevent the four cylinder from starting...
Coolant leaks are almost always hbv or radiator, oil leaks are always breather related (top end) or sump gasket/crank seals (bottom end), handling issues are always highlighted by failed front wishbone vertical bushes... etc, etc
Head gasket is a red herring in this case... Were it a V6, it wouldn't even be mentioned, even though the 3.0 is at least as prone to it.
Clean the breathers, sort the camcover leak and service it, just like you would any V6 Omega and report back.
Thanks for your wisdom, Doc. This car has made a fool of me. Son returned it running well, 3 weeks ago. I plugged in my diagmoser, and was surprised to discover that the post cat mixture did not vary lean-rich at idle, unlike my other 2.2, which did. I replaced the MAF sensor and 1st cat with new, and tried again. No change in mixture control, but now the car would not idle. I found oil in plug wells 3 & 4, plug pack not dry and happy.
Clearly more work to be done. Will report back. jk enoui
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A lesson to correct diagnose before randomly changing parts, TP ;). Get to understand and love your diags machine ;)
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In light of the manifold crack... Best add it to the list :y
Cheap and cheerful...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EXHAUST-MANIFOLD-OPEL-VAUXHALL-OMEGA-B-2-0-VECTRA-B-1-8-2-0-/371141255032
Hopefully someone can confirm that it will fit ;)
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In light of the manifold crack... Best add it to the list :y
Cheap and cheerful...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EXHAUST-MANIFOLD-OPEL-VAUXHALL-OMEGA-B-2-0-VECTRA-B-1-8-2-0-/371141255032
Hopefully someone can confirm that it will fit ;)
2.2 does not have secondary air injection as far as I know. I have found in the past that the exhaust gasket studs in the head are inclined to breaking off. On Ben's 2.2 the 2 front studs are missing - amazingly the gasket is not blowing at that point.
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If you can get to the snapped studs and drill them out ,they are pretty soft
(using good quality sharp/new drill bits)
i started with a center punch, 1.5mm , 3mm, 5mm
(depth stop marking with tape on the bits,you don't want to go too deep)
then if you have an easy out extractor set?
the stud nuts are brass/copper and soft(sacrificial in comparison to the stud),
often swapped for steel nuts ,which get over torqued and snap studs
when fitting an exhaust manifold , treat it like you would a cylinder head
evenly tighten gradually by hand, (no air tools ,impact drivers)
i've seen studs screwed into the head past the fat section of the stud (splitting the head)
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In light of the manifold crack... Best add it to the list :y
Cheap and cheerful...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EXHAUST-MANIFOLD-OPEL-VAUXHALL-OMEGA-B-2-0-VECTRA-B-1-8-2-0-/371141255032
Hopefully someone can confirm that it will fit ;)
2.2 does not have secondary air injection as far as I know. I have found in the past that the exhaust gasket studs in the head are inclined to breaking off. On Ben's 2.2 the 2 front studs are missing - amazingly the gasket is not blowing at that point.
Here's what I got few years ago: https://www.vauxhall-car-parts.co.uk/acatalog/VAUXHALL_EXHAUST_MANIFOLD_-_24420438.html (https://www.vauxhall-car-parts.co.uk/acatalog/VAUXHALL_EXHAUST_MANIFOLD_-_24420438.html)
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For the record I’m not suggesting head gasket failure is the cause. A methodical diagnosis is obviously needed
I was just saying that it did happen to my 2.2 :y
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Thanks James, I was puzzled by the sudden misfire at low revs, which seemed inconsistent with oil on coil pack.
Resigned as I was to swapping the cat section yet again, I have removed the coil pack and the the cam cover unit first. It occurred to me I might manage to siphon the oil out of cylinders 3 & 4 via the plug holes to avoid burning it off with engine running or risk poisoning my young catalyst.
Imagine my surprise; I turned engine to raise 3 & 4 to the top, expecting to see a sea of oil in pots 3 & 4 - not the case! They are as dry as 1 & 2! The oil must have drained past the rings into the sump.
So, no need to swap cat sections for the initial burn after changing cam Cover gaskets, then swap them back again. All I need do is fit new cam cover gaskets, clear the breathers, fit new plugs, and fire up, praying that it idles sweetly.
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Not fixing the manifold is a mistake...
As is assuming that the oil gets past the plugs... Oil in the plug wells degrades the insulation properties of the coil pack rubbers to the point of affecting spark voltages... Hence the misfire.
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Not fixing the manifold is a mistake...
As is assuming that the oil gets past the plugs... Oil in the plug wells degrades the insulation properties of the coil pack rubbers to the point of affecting spark voltages... Hence the misfire.
Thanks for the advice Doc. In my defence the manifold was cracked last year and passed MOT. In fact every 4 cylinder petrol Omega I have ever owned has sported a cracked exhaust manifold. I had one welded up, but it cracked again within the year. As commented earlier, the manifold retaining studs into the head are prone to breaking off in the head.
I shall examine the insulators for cracks before reassembly. Other members have commented that oil is not a bad insulator!
I appreciate getting this car through its MOT will be a struggle. It only cost me £190 2 years ago.
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You think... ::)
Still, at least you now know why it's misfiring...
Sort the camcover, change the plugs, check the coil pack and report back :y
Camcover sorted, plugs changed for new, coil pack cleaned up and all reinstalled. Engine ran, but misfired at idle and low revs. Diagnostic said misfire cylinders 1 & 3. Am investigating.
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You think... ::)
Still, at least you now know why it's misfiring...
Sort the camcover, change the plugs, check the coil pack and report back :y
Camcover sorted, plugs changed for new, coil pack cleaned up and all reinstalled. Engine ran, but misfired at idle and low revs. Diagnostic said misfire cylinders 1 & 3. Am investigating.
Given that the fault has moved cylinders, I would suggest the coil pack is past its best...
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Or still that exhaust manifold crack messing up idle and low revs?
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You think... ::)
Still, at least you now know why it's misfiring...
Sort the camcover, change the plugs, check the coil pack and report back :y
Camcover sorted, plugs changed for new, coil pack cleaned up and all reinstalled. Engine ran, but misfired at idle and low revs. Diagnostic said misfire cylinders 1 & 3. Am investigating.
Given that the fault has moved cylinders, I would suggest the coil pack is past its best...
Thanks Doc, good advice. Have I a spare coil pack, I wonder? I rummage. To my surprise I find a coil pack marked '2.2'. With it I find a complete induction tract marked '2.2'. I decide to fit the induction tract first.
Fault disappears! Engine starts, idles, pulls normally.
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Well done, Terry.
What's an induction tract?
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Well done, Terry.
What's an induction tract?
it's the hollow bit of the inlet manifold
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Well done, Terry.
What's an induction tract?
The assembly of hoses and mass air flow meter that connects the air cleaner to the throttle box. Fitting involves 2 hose clips and one electrical connector.
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Well done, Terry.
What's an induction tract?
The assembly of hoses and mass air flow meter that connects the air cleaner to the throttle box. Fitting involves 2 hose clips and one electrical connector.
Terry do you have the part number or size of the two hose clamps that connect the air flow meter?
Mine are knackered.
Glad you got it all sorted. :y
Thanks
Andy
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Well done, Terry.
What's an induction tract?
The assembly of hoses and mass air flow meter that connects the air cleaner to the throttle box. Fitting involves 2 hose clips and one electrical connector.
Terry do you have the part number or size of the two hose clamps that connect the air flow meter?
Mine are knackered.
Glad you got it all sorted. :y
Thanks
Andy
S3 size 40
29-76 USA
one is labelled,
the other says NORMA 72-80
make of that what you will
The diameter of the clamp point seems to about 76mm
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Well done, Terry.
What's an induction tract?
The assembly of hoses and mass air flow meter that connects the air cleaner to the throttle box. Fitting involves 2 hose clips and one electrical connector.
Terry do you have the part number or size of the two hose clamps that connect the air flow meter?
Mine are knackered.
Glad you got it all sorted. :y
Thanks
Andy
S3 size 40
29-76 USA
one is labelled,
the other says NORMA 72-80
make of that what you will
The diameter of the clamp point seems to about 76mm
Correction: those are the hose clips either side of the air flow meter, not the ones I touched. The air cleaner end clip is labelled 82-92 NORMA, the throttle body end clip is labelled Norma 66-75.
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So, was it a split in the old inlet?
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So, was it a split in the old inlet?
Don't know. I looked for one and could not see one. The MAF sensor was a genuine Vx recent purchase from a member presumed good, whereas the earlier MAFs were aftermarket and suspect. I suppose I should investigate further. I was quite prepared to find the coil pack dodgy, or my cam cover gasket repair failing, or my new plugs (Densa) faulty or incorrectly gapped. I was warned the cracked exhaust manifold could cause faulty running. I never expected the induction tract change to cure the fault.
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Well done, Terry.
What's an induction tract?
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/12k5hoxsb42d93b/INDUCTtract.jpg?dl=1)[/url]
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Well done, Terry.
What's an induction tract?
The assembly of hoses and mass air flow meter that connects the air cleaner to the throttle box. Fitting involves 2 hose clips and one electrical connector.
Terry do you have the part number or size of the two hose clamps that connect the air flow meter?
Mine are knackered.
Glad you got it all sorted. :y
Thanks
Andy
S3 size 40
29-76 USA
one is labelled,
the other says NORMA 72-80
make of that what you will
The diameter of the clamp point seems to about 76mm
Correction: those are the hose clips either side of the air flow meter, not the ones I touched. The air cleaner end clip is labelled 82-92 NORMA, the throttle body end clip is labelled Norma 66-75.
Thanks Terry for the info. :y
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Oh dear. Having repaired the cills, and sorted the stalling, I hoped this car was ready for MOT. In a short test spin, however, the EML came on. I plugged in my diagnoser, up came P0170 lean exhaust. I checked live data, and found the O2 loop was open, even with a hot engine. Both lambda sensors recorded lean, and were not switching rich-lean as they should if the O2 loop was closed.
As this thread testifies, I have changed the first lambda sensor, and the MAF sensor. Members may tell me the cracked exhaust manifold will affect matters, but I have suffered cracked exhaust manifolds before on 4 cylinder Omegas, and they have not affected emissions or brought on EMLs. Atempting to change the manifold, if I can get one, will open a whole new can of worms, so I don't want to go there.
Please advise.
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How big IS the crack in the manifold ?
you could try gum gum or JBweld ,
won't last as a fix but may last long enough to prove one way or another if the crack is an issue ;)
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/mqc37qu32hlj52v/exMANcrack.jpg?dl=1)
Good thinking.
I have a MIG welder. I was wondering if grinding a slot into the crack, and then trying to weld a repair into it, might achieve a similar temporary result. Silly idea?
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I'm not a welder so please don't shoot me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that welding cast iron doesn't work: brazing does?
Ron.
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Cast iron can be welded Ron. :y
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OK, lead me to the firing squad, Albs! :'(
Ron.
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I've read that some have successfully welded those manifolds in-place.
Before welding drive/rev engine hot as possible so exhaust manifold is very hot, disconnect battery and then quickly weld with applicable welding method and then wrap the whole manifold with rock wool and let cool over night. This should prevent repaired manifold to crack/bend.
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I'm not a welder so please don't shoot me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that welding cast iron doesn't work: brazing does?
Ron.
welding cast iron is possible, but it's a specialist job that's rarely durable on a long thin part like an exhaust manifold. Brazing tends to be a bit more successful, but the heat cycles of a manifold don't help.
Add the cost of doing it(you're not going to do it with a MIG welder for instance) and buying a new manifold is the only viable fix.
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Yes Nick, that's roughly the way I remember hearing it (I think from Webby the bear - where is he these days?), that welding is at best temporary if it works at all and brazing is the only answer and even that will not last forever.
Would ceramic coating work?
Ron.
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Thanks for all the advice, chaps. Could there be any other reason for the O2 loop remaining open? This car, and several other 4 cylinder Omegas I have owned, all had cracks in the exhaust manifolds, but passed MOT emissions tests. Repairing this car looks liable to exceed its value.
Now you see why I hate 4 cylinder Omegas.
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If enough air is getting it, it will bugger up the readings, and also upset the fuelling.
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MOT failed. High lambda, never below 1.15, and 14 advisories. Oh dear.
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If it's running OKish with the lambda that high, then it's pretty much a dead cert that it's the exhaust manifold IMHO.
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If it's running OKish with the lambda that high, then it's pretty much a dead cert that it's the exhaust manifold IMHO.
Agreed. As posted earlier, whereas all my other Omegas switch lean-rich-lean-rich on lambda sensor readings, this one is stuck on lean, with the O2 loop stuck on open. However, I have not seen any 2.2 exhaust manifolds on e-bay recently (saw a 2.0 one for sale yesterday, though, new, with gaskets, £45), so I expect to scrap the car.
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The place i got my door,wing and bumper have a 2.2 sport breaking
here's their ebay shop
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/shirebrook-auto-salvage-01623742199?_trksid=p2047675.l2563 (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/shirebrook-auto-salvage-01623742199?_trksid=p2047675.l2563)
omega is not listed but give them a bell
also , are you sure the rest of the exhaust is sealed ? you can suck air by venturi effect if there;s a hole/bad joint
take it you did not try jbweld or gum gum ?
or holding your finger over the crack while they did the emissions test ;D
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Thanks for the tip, Dave.
The place i got my door,wing and bumper have a 2.2 sport breaking
here's their ebay shop
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/shirebrook-auto-salvage-01623742199?_trksid=p2047675.l2563 (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/shirebrook-auto-salvage-01623742199?_trksid=p2047675.l2563)
omega is not listed but give them a bell
also , are you sure the rest of the exhaust is sealed ? you can suck air by venturi effect if there;s a hole/bad joint
take it you did not try jbweld or gum gum ?
or holding your finger over the crack while they did the emissions test ;D
Thanks for the tip, Dave. Yes, pretty sure the rest of the exhaust is sealed. I did not try jbweld or gungum, nor try putting my finger over the crack. I visited the website, they have a new 2.0 Omega exhaust manifold, not a 2.2. I could give them a ring tomorrow. Certainly a manifold at £45 is worth a punt.I have not checked Vx prices, my impression is its about £200.
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MOT failed. High lambda, never below 1.15, and 14 advisories. Oh dear.
I'd take 14 advisories any day :D
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Thanks for the tip, Dave. Yes, pretty sure the rest of the exhaust is sealed. I did not try jbweld or gungum, nor try putting my finger over the crack. I visited the website, they have a new 2.0 Omega exhaust manifold, not a 2.2. I could give them a ring tomorrow. Certainly a manifold at £45 is worth a punt.I have not checked Vx prices, my impression is its about £200.
Seen THIS (https://www.atp-autoteile.de/de/product/50495-lrt-abgaskr%C3%BCmmersatz-mit-anbaumaterial/v-13647) or THIS? (https://www.atp-autoteile.de/de/product/63007-bestprice-abgaskr%C3%BCmmersatz-mit-anbaumaterial/v-13647)
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Thanks for the tip, Dave. Yes, pretty sure the rest of the exhaust is sealed. I did not try jbweld or gungum, nor try putting my finger over the crack. I visited the website, they have a new 2.0 Omega exhaust manifold, not a 2.2. I could give them a ring tomorrow. Certainly a manifold at £45 is worth a punt.I have not checked Vx prices, my impression is its about £200.
Seen THIS (https://www.atp-autoteile.de/de/product/50495-lrt-abgaskr%C3%BCmmersatz-mit-anbaumaterial/v-13647) or THIS? (https://www.atp-autoteile.de/de/product/63007-bestprice-abgaskr%C3%BCmmersatz-mit-anbaumaterial/v-13647)
No! The second seems too good to be true; complete new manifold, studs, nuts and gaskets for about £30. My German isn't any good, but that would get my wreck through its MOT with a 2 year guarantee on the manifold. Many thanks.
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It certainly says Opel Omega 2.2 at the top of the advert. There are a few strange slots in the gasket, but the manifold looks right for the 2.2, i.e. without the holes for the exhaust gas recirculation. Any others care to comment?
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Wow ! perhaps they have some old castings which have not been machined for multi-port egr
but the 4th port and the gasket make a channel to egr
hope they will deliver to the uk :-\
in the suitable vehicles the omega b 144 hp 2.2 is listed
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Wow ! perhaps they have some old castings which have not been machined for multi-port egr
but the 4th port and the gasket make a channel to egr
hope they will deliver to the uk :-\
in the suitable vehicles the omega b 144 hp 2.2 is listed
In order:
don't have a 2.2 so can't say what's involved in blanking the rest of the EGR. But considering the state of used manifolds, I would rather risk doing some mods than buy a barely any better than the one on the car used item for the same money. Or there's the EGR ready one for a sensible price
Yes, they deliver. My stuff usually arrives in a couple of days.
That's how I found those listings, buy entering 2.2 Omega B in the relevant parts of the home page.
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Thanks Nick, I think I have ordered one. It's challenging all in German, biggest problem was the post code, which the site kept rejecting. Eventually I put it in
lower case, and it accepted it, promptly displaying it in upper case. I'll let you know when it arrives.I still cannot get over the price. Perhaps they are dumping old stock.Thpugh i have been fitting ATP wishbones, etc for years, and they are still cheap.
I have seen so many 2 litres with the top left hand 2 studs missing, I am nervous about this job, though I have removed 2 manifolds in the past and been lucky. Any tips?
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Thanks Nick, I think I have ordered one. It's challenging all in German, biggest problem was the post code, which the site kept rejecting. Eventually I put it in
lower case, and it accepted it, promptly displaying it in upper case. I'll let you know when it arrives.I still cannot get over the price. Perhaps they are dumping old stock.Thpugh i have been fitting ATP wishbones, etc for years, and they are still cheap.
I have seen so many 2 litres with the top left hand 2 studs missing, I am nervous about this job, though I have removed 2 manifolds in the past and been lucky. Any tips?
Let us know how you get on Terry. Mine has a crack in it as well.
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Certainly will, Andy. Thanks for your support.
I am worried that the front studs will break off as I try to remove the nuts. This fear is based upon the fact that 2 cars I bought for son Ben, a 2.0 and a 2.2, had missing studs there. However, when I removed the exhaust manifold on my first 2.0, it came off cleanly enough. Again, when I changed the head gasket on Jonny's 2.2, it came off OK.
Checking the photos of Jonn'y head gasket job, there is an EGR system in evidence, pump at the back of the head. So I shall have to wait and see.
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Thanks Nick, I think I have ordered one. It's challenging all in German, biggest problem was the post code, which the site kept rejecting. Eventually I put it in
lower case, and it accepted it, promptly displaying it in upper case. I'll let you know when it arrives.I still cannot get over the price. Perhaps they are dumping old stock.Thpugh i have been fitting ATP wishbones, etc for years, and they are still cheap.
I have seen so many 2 litres with the top left hand 2 studs missing, I am nervous about this job, though I have removed 2 manifolds in the past and been lucky. Any tips?
If the German is challenging, have your browser translate it - mine does it automatically.
Modern manifold fasteners are so much better than they used to be: I haven't broken one in years, no matter what they were fitted to. The old Ford/BL/etc shit we started working on 30 years ago seemed to use a special engineering grade of cheese which snapped off as soon as you looked at it hopefully.
Tips:
clean any exposed threads with a wire brush before doing anything else.
give them a squirt of your favourite penetrant(like most lubricants that's an entirely subjective choice)
use a close fitting socket or spanner, and ensure that you don't bias the tool.
apply firm, even pressure rather than a jerking motion.
Buy some lefthanded 6mm drill bits for when you do break a stud
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Thanks of the advice on German, and the tips.
Here is the manifold I failed to save on Jonny's 2.2. I removed it to replace the head gasket. It went with the car when I scrapped it.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/e5y9slk5q1wg8tq/2.2crankSENSOR.jpg?dl=1)
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Thanks of the advice on German, and the tips.
Here is the manifold I failed to save on Jonny's 2.2. I removed it to replace the head gasket. It went with the car when I scrapped it.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/e5y9slk5q1wg8tq/2.2crankSENSOR.jpg?dl=1)
Wrong pic.
Thanks of the advice on German, and the tips.
Here is the manifold I failed to save on Jonny's 2.2. I removed it to replace the head gasket. It went with the car when I scrapped it.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/e5y9slk5q1wg8tq/2.2crankSENSOR.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/dpjazi2crgiu69t/2.2exMAN.jpg?dl=1)
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Certainly will, Andy. Thanks for your support.
I am worried that the front studs will break off as I try to remove the nuts. This fear is based upon the fact that 2 cars I bought for son Ben, a 2.0 and a 2.2, had missing studs there. However, when I removed the exhaust manifold on my first 2.0, it came off cleanly enough. Again, when I changed the head gasket on Jonny's 2.2, it came off OK.
Checking the photos of Jonn'y head gasket job, there is an EGR system in evidence, pump at the back of the head. So I shall have to wait and see.
Can you put up a photo of the EGR valve?
The other thing that I just thought of Terry, maybe the new manifold if it fits will have the same effect as putting a EGR blanking plate in. Not really sure where the exhaust gas goes through on the head.
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EGR pump at back of head
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/5gts8lwc3xcbr08/EGRpump.jpg?dl=1)
EGR hose on inlet side
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/12w0uavjqd4uril/EGRhose.jpg?dl=1)
EGR pipe inlet side
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/6q2alm5bjwr6ro5/EGRhoseOFF.jpg?dl=1)
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Bigger pic of EGR pump
https://www.dropbox.com/s/psv7bmk1thyjgbs/EGRpump2.jpg?dl=1
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EGR pump
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/4ja4r7imrn0xm7y/EGRpump3.jpg?dl=1)
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Certainly will, Andy. Thanks for your support.
I am worried that the front studs will break off as I try to remove the nuts. This fear is based upon the fact that 2 cars I bought for son Ben, a 2.0 and a 2.2, had missing studs there. However, when I removed the exhaust manifold on my first 2.0, it came off cleanly enough. Again, when I changed the head gasket on Jonny's 2.2, it came off OK.
Checking the photos of Jonn'y head gasket job, there is an EGR system in evidence, pump at the back of the head. So I shall have to wait and see.
Can you put up a photo of the EGR valve?
The other thing that I just thought of Terry, maybe the new manifold if it fits will have the same effect as putting a EGR blanking plate in. Not really sure where the exhaust gas goes through on the head.
Pictures posted. I may be talking rubbish, but at the time (summer 2015) that's what I thought it was. The pump appears to be at the rear of the heah, exhaust side, and pumps through hose to the inlet manifold. On reflection, a rubber hose would not survive hot exhaust gases. Maybe it is blowing air from the inlet manifold into the exhaust manifold. Discuss.
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the EGR valve is a stepper motor solenoid
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EGR-Valve-Exhaust-Gas-Recirculation-Fits-OPEL-Omega-Sintra-Vectra-MPV-851578/142629927446?epid=17011626709&hash=item213567fa16:g:ekEAAOSw-xVaOM1L (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EGR-Valve-Exhaust-Gas-Recirculation-Fits-OPEL-Omega-Sintra-Vectra-MPV-851578/142629927446?epid=17011626709&hash=item213567fa16:g:ekEAAOSw-xVaOM1L)
if you look at the manifold gasket ,you'll note port 4 is longer ,gas goes down the small square hole to the egr valve if open,then recirculates back to the inlet fannymould , for re-burning
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Bigger pic of EGR pump
https://www.dropbox.com/s/psv7bmk1thyjgbs/EGRpump2.jpg?dl=1
Thanks for the photos Terry, That looks the same as my 2.2 petrol 2003.
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. The pump appears to be at the rear of the heah, exhaust side, and pumps through hose to the inlet manifold. On reflection, a rubber hose would not survive hot exhaust gases. Maybe it is blowing air from the inlet manifold into the exhaust manifold. Discuss.
Looks like the 2,2 has a egr cooler with the cts combined ,the pipe you speak of is coolant pipe i think
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/D6MAAOSwiBJZ5hM7/s-l1600.jpg)
egr bolts on the right hand side (2 black holes are exhaust passages)
the egr valve looks like this
(https://ssli.ebayimg.com/images/g/~s0AAOSwPkBaZ5~8/s-l1600.jpg)
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Well done, Terry.
What's an induction tract?
The assembly of hoses and mass air flow meter that connects the air cleaner to the throttle box. Fitting involves 2 hose clips and one electrical connector.
Terry do you have the part number or size of the two hose clamps that connect the air flow meter?
Mine are knackered.
Glad you got it all sorted. :y
Thanks
Andy
S3 size 40
29-76 USA
one is labelled,
the other says NORMA 72-80
make of that what you will
The diameter of the clamp point seems to about 76mm
Correction: those are the hose clips either side of the air flow meter, not the ones I touched. The air cleaner end clip is labelled 82-92 NORMA, the throttle body end clip is labelled Norma 66-75.
Found this site for replacement Worm Drive Hose Clamps – 9mm. If anyone is interested. :y
https://www.hcl-clamping.co.uk/content/7-hose-clamps
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MOT expired 30 April 2018. manifold not arrived. I sent enquiring e-mail yesterday, ATP told me they have trouble with shippers so cannot give me carriage reference or arrival estimate. Like Nick, I have bought from ATP before (wishbone kits) and had no trouble, delivery within a week.
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MOT expired 30 April 2018. manifold not arrived. I sent enquiring e-mail yesterday, ATP told me they have trouble with shippers so cannot give me carriage reference or arrival estimate. Like Nick, I have bought from ATP before (wishbone kits) and had no trouble, delivery within a week.
That's frustrating Terry. I bought some wishbones from them a while back and they came fairly quick. Very unusual for ATP.
Hope you get it soon.
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I attach our exchange about the non-delivery. I am not sure whether the carrier has lost it, or they never despatched it.
Dear customer,
thank You for the message.
Unfortunately we have a delay in transmitting the information from the shipping company therefore currently we are not available to provide the tracking number.
We are very sorry for the delay, but we are kindly asking to wait few more days as far it is international shipping.
Best regards
Marharyta
Agent
Customer Contact Centre
ATP Auto-Teile-Poellath Handels GmbH
Am Heidweg 1
92690 Pressath
------------------------------------
-----------------
Original message:
-----------------
Order for item number 10641007 from Terry Paget BA3 2Lp United Kingdom
Dear Sir,
I ordered this item 25 April 2018. Payment by paypal of 51.69 EUR took place transaction ID 9FF3141914003061G 13.35 25 April 2018. Item has not yet arrived. Please advise date of dispatch and expected delivery.
Terry Paget
5 May 2018
----
END
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I hate it when this happens
leaves you with a car , prepped for mot ,that you can't use,and your going to have to re check it all,
and the uncertainty as to if you need to find another manifold or not :(
hope it turns up soon Mr Paget
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I hate it when this happens
leaves you with a car , prepped for mot ,that you can't use,and your going to have to re check it all,
and the uncertainty as to if you need to find another manifold or not :(
hope it turns up soon Mr Paget
All the more vexing because I scrapped a perfect 2.2 exhaust manifold a couple of years ago - see picture above. It's difficult to know what bits to keep.
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More pics of the EGR valve. Here is the head, inlet side, showing part of the exhaust gasket
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/wvdlywlcdynknlm/2.2headINLETside.jpg?dl=1)
Here is the exhaust side
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/gyf8cqvp22webcu/2.2HEADexhaustSide.jpg?dl=1)
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I note that 4 studs remain in the head, exhaust side, so 9 studs came out. That's fine by me, as long as no studs break off in the head.
I presume the exhaust gas recirculation is from ehaust side to inlet side via holes cast in the head when the EGR valve opens. That means that all exhaust ports need to be connected.
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I presume the exhaust gas recirculation is from ehaust side to inlet side via holes cast in the head when the EGR valve opens. That means that all exhaust ports need to be connected.
nope ,
Look at your 2nd picture
exhaust port 4 (far right )lets gasses via the extended Chanel(in gasket,manifold or head) back into the head via the square-ish small hole that is between the 2 studs remaining far right .
gasses then exit the head casting into the EGR cooler casting (as shown in my previous pics )
if the egr valve is open (only opens above certain revs/speed and varies how much it opens again relating to revs /speed)
gasses pass through the EGR valve ,back to the head casting (via egr cooler) and exit from the small square-ish hole inlet gasket side (see your first pic ,hole far left in gasket ,inlet cylinder 4 )
the gasses are sucked into the inlet manifold for re-burning
thus , EGR
exhaust gas re-circulation :y
you can buy EGR blank plates that sit under the EGR valve to block gasses being recirculated
but if you have a "gud un" (one that works ,does not throw up codes for egr faults .or stalls,hesitates etc )
keep it un-blanked , sometimes blanked EGRs stick due to heat build up,crud etc ,report back to the ECU ,EML on ,headache ;)
EGR valve sucking un-metered air (due to exhaust manifold gasket leak,EGR gasket leak,or the inlet gasket on your engine,a pipe on other engines) can cause major power loss,stalling,poor running,emission problems etc etc
hope the manifold is with you soon so you can get that test sorted ,car back on the road :)
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Thanks Dave. That achieves recirculation on cylinder 4 when the ECU thinks desirable, but not 1, 2 and 3. Is it a token clean air effort?
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Thanks Dave. That achieves recirculation on cylinder 4 when the ECU thinks desirable, but not 1, 2 and 3. Is it a token clean air effort?
It only uses/recirculates exhaust gas from cylinder 4 BUT as the gas goes back into the inlet manifold , it mixes with fresh ,metered air and can be sucked by 1,2,3 and 4 cylinders for tr-burn :y
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Thanks Dave. That achieves recirculation on cylinder 4 when the ECU thinks desirable, but not 1, 2 and 3. Is it a token clean air effort?
Recirculating exhaust gas is supposed to reduce combustion temperatures. So it doesn't need to be drawn from the whole exhaust system.
So it's definitely a token effort. I suspect that it's effectiveness is within a very small window that matches a specific emissions test. Blanking it off makes no discernible difference to a V6.
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Yep, it's adding exhaust gas to the intake that matters, not taking it from the exhaust, so it doesn't matter if it comes from all 4 pots or just one. In fact, the exhaust manifold is hardly more than a plenum anyway, so it probably mixes all over the place in there anyway.
I'm guessing the intake side is more careful to distribute the gases evenly among the cylinders but I can't remember exactly what it looks like on a 4 pot.
EGR done well is quite beneficial to a petrol engine because not only does it cool combustion of the rather sparse cylinder charge under light load, reducing NOX emissions, but it also reduces the pumping losses against a partially closed throttle giving better fuel consumption.
It's worth maintaining in working order if you can.
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So it's definitely a token effort. I suspect that it's effectiveness is within a very small window that matches a specific emissions test. Blanking it off makes no discernible difference to a V6.
But this is a 4 banger , unless Mr Paget builds an extension and adds another 2 cylinders ;D
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Here is the exhaust manifold, 6 missing studs replaced. I imagine the middle row of holes was for the secondary air injection system. The top 3 threads also seem redundant. The RH channel tothe EGR is clear here.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/pl2bo7rjpc7s1hz/2.2HEADexhSIDE.jpg?dl=1)
Inlet side. I note the rectangular connection to the EGR. I assume the coolant pipe to the EGR base is the only coolant feed to the head.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/i3oq8tngnhe82mf/2.2HEADinSIDE.jpg?dl=1)
EGR base. The 2 electrical connections are for the temperature sensors.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/k4b8rhm1ic2xxrc/2.2EGR.jpg?dl=1)
Thanks to all for advice and enlightenment.
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I assume the coolant pipe to the EGR base is the only coolant feed to the head
no, if you look at a head gasket , there are many coolant channels around the fire rings (as well as bolt holes and 710 ways )
710 is OIL for people who put their filler cap on upside down :y
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EGR channel is built into the coolant bridge... Neat bit of packaging as it probably helps the engine warm up times :y
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I assume the coolant pipe to the EGR base is the only coolant feed to the head
no, if you look at a head gasket , there are many coolant channels around the fire rings (as well as bolt holes and 710 ways )
710 is OIL for people who put their filler cap on upside down :y
I was aware that coolant circulated between head and block. I was changing the head gasket because of a coolant leak. I imagined that cool water entered the head by the EGR base pipe and left it, somewhat hotter, by the pipe at the front of the head.
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Yep , on some vauxhall family 0 engines, (I've never worked on the one you have) there is a pipe direct from the water pump to the EGR cooler ,then coolant goes through the head back to the water pump
other outlets on the water pump take coolant to the heater matrix and rad ,and overflow to expansion vessel
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For some reason I removed the EGR from the head. Here is its back. Both the gaskets in the gasket kit were wrong, so I bought one from Vx. I imagine the machined groove around the gas channel is for cooling purpose, and the two stumps in the centre are the temperature sensors.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ck0vycoi8qip50e/EGRback.jpg?dl=1)
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For some reason I removed the EGR from the head. Here is its back. Both the gaskets in the gasket kit were wrong, so I bought one from Vx. I imagine the machined groove around the gas channel is for cooling purpose, and the two stumps in the centre are the temperature sensors.
machined slot between gas channel / temp sensor pocket is there so that if the gasket fails , coolant leaks out, down the engine and not sucked into inlet (causing hydrolock ) BANG !
yes to the brass stumps being the ECU CTS (coolant tempreture sensor) ,and the other being the dash cluster sender :y
(hence why sometimes the ecu temp reading via scan live data is different to the temp the dash reports )
nice photos BTW Mr Paget :y
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For some reason I removed the EGR from the head. Here is its back. Both the gaskets in the gasket kit were wrong, so I bought one from Vx. I imagine the machined groove around the gas channel is for cooling purpose, and the two stumps in the centre are the temperature sensors.
machined slot between gas channel / temp sensor pocket is there so that if the gasket fails , coolant leaks out, down the engine and not sucked into inlet (causing hydrolock ) BANG !
yes to the brass stumps being the ECU CTS (coolant tempreture sensor) ,and the other being the dash cluster sender :y
(hence why sometimes the ecu temp reading via scan live data is different to the temp the dash reports )
nice photos BTW Mr Paget :y
Second that. :y
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For some reason I removed the EGR from the head. Here is its back. Both the gaskets in the gasket kit were wrong, so I bought one from Vx. I imagine the machined groove around the gas channel is for cooling purpose, and the two stumps in the centre are the temperature sensors.
machined slot between gas channel / temp sensor pocket is there so that if the gasket fails , coolant leaks out, down the engine and not sucked into inlet (causing hydrolock ) BANG !
yes to the brass stumps being the ECU CTS (coolant tempreture sensor) ,and the other being the dash cluster sender :y
(hence why sometimes the ecu temp reading via scan live data is different to the temp the dash reports )
nice photos BTW Mr Paget :y
Thanks Dave; that makes more sense.
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EGR channel is built into the coolant bridge... Neat bit of packaging as it probably helps the engine warm up times :y
Well spotted, Doc, I see what you mean.
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Fingers crossed chaps- ATP will send another manifold set. Here is their note.
Hello,
we are very sorry for the inconvenience.
We will immediately arrange a replacement delivery.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen | Kind regards
Marina
Customer Contact Centre | Agent
ATP Auto-Teile-Pöllath Handels GmbH
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The good news is the 2.2 exhaust manifold kit arrived yesterday. My thanks to Nick W for thetip - it seems very cheap at 45 Euros.
The bad news is that I discovered there were 2 holding studs missing, and I broke off 1 more removing the manifold, despite wire brushing and applying heat.
Remaining studs are 2-3-4-5 upper row, and 1-3-5 lower row.
Should I:
a) scrap car
b) remove head and get it repaired
c) fit the new manifold on remaining 7 studs
d) something else.
My inclination is to fit the manifold on the remaining studs, but I am open to advice. The car only cost me £190, so it owes me nothing.
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Option D
You don't need to remove the head to replace the missing or damaged studs. This is a straightforward job that is only complicated by access problems, and that isn't the case on a 2.2 Omega. M8 thread repair kits are cheap and relatively easy to use, the 'difficult' part especially for someone who hasn't done it before, is to extract the broken studs. There are numerous techniques, all of which have their place. Given your propensity to over think and over complicate things, it might be better if you pay someone else to do this part of the job.
As you have repeatedly discovered, a £190 car can cost much more than that to actually sort out.
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I'd be drilling / removing the snapped studs and replacing ,
without all the studs ,clamping it flat , what stops it distorting / blowing /warping / cracking :-\
your not meant to use gum gum or similar pre cats ,
you have the parts now , studs drill easy with new good drill bits :y
finding another car cheap, without other major issues , would be difficult
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The good news is the 2.2 exhaust manifold kit arrived yesterday. My thanks to Nick W for thetip - it seems very cheap at 45 Euros.
The bad news is that I discovered there were 2 holding studs missing, and I broke off 1 more removing the manifold, despite wire brushing and applying heat.
Remaining studs are 2-3-4-5 upper row, and 1-3-5 lower row.
Should I:
a) scrap car
b) remove head and get it repaired
c) fit the new manifold on remaining 7 studs
d) something else.
My inclination is to fit the manifold on the remaining studs, but I am open to advice. The car only cost me £190, so it owes me nothing.
Glad you finally got the manifold delivered.
I would watch a few vids off the internet and try and centre punch and drill out the snapped off studs. After all what do you have to loose if you decide to scrap the car anyway.
Any chance you could put up some pics of what the new manifold looks like up close?
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Here are a couple of pics of the exhaust manifold kit.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/u2nv4455nml3tzu/EXmanBOTTOM.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ccml5lsz049g3b8/exMANtop.jpg?dl=1)
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To improve access I can remove the dipstick. Also in the way is an aircon pipe; aircon has never worked and will never work again on this car, so I can get rid of that too. The studs have snapped off a little way inside the threads, making it tricky to centre punch them centrally. Is this easy work for a man who knows what he is doing?
I guess I must ask around for such a man. My son's friend Brummy the welder might know.
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Pics
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/u2nv4455nml3tzu/EXmanBOTTOM.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ccml5lsz049g3b8/exMANtop.jpg?dl=1)
Apologies to all, now using my laptop and strange things are happening.
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It appears my desk top Windows XP is dying, am writing this on my laptop Windows 10. I can no longer see my earlier pics on my desk top, but I can see them on my laptop. Do let me know if you cannot see my recent pics of my new manifold. I see them on my laptop, but not on my desk top.
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I can see the fanimold pics in the 2 posts above :y
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I can see your latest pics :y
your xp desktop could be not showing pics due to flash player /I.explorer not supported any more
later o/s desk top machines can be had cheaply if your xp machine hardware id to old to cope with windows 10 :y
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could be not showing pics due to flash player /I.explorer not supported any more
OOF, by design, makes no use of Flash, for security reasons. Older IE's will work on the non-secure site (http), but might struggle with https - which TP's dropbox images are :y
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To improve access I can remove the dipstick. Also in the way is an aircon pipe; aircon has never worked and will never work again on this car, so I can get rid of that too. The studs have snapped off a little way inside the threads, making it tricky to centre punch them centrally. Is this easy work for a man who knows what he is doing?
I guess I must ask around for such a man. My son's friend Brummy the welder might know.
If the studs have sheared rather than just unscrew out with the nut they will be stuck in there pretty well.
Although I agree you can drill them out in situ the hardest part is maintaining alignment so you drill down the centre rather than off into the head.
I've made a small drill jig up that solves that problem. It also holds the drill in the correct position so centre punching the stud isn't an issue as long as you start slowly.
Good luck.
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Yes, alignment is the key to drilling out studs and a simple jig is a good idea. That's one of the reasons to own a welder if you're a DIY mechanic; you can cobble together special tools in no time. A short length of tube welded to some strap that bolts to one of the other bolt holes would work well.
Left handed drillbits are well worth having this sort of job too. 4 and 6mm ones would be enough for this work.
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To improve access I can remove the dipstick. Also in the way is an aircon pipe; aircon has never worked and will never work again on this car, so I can get rid of that too. The studs have snapped off a little way inside the threads, making it tricky to centre punch them centrally. Is this easy work for a man who knows what he is doing?
I guess I must ask around for such a man. My son's friend Brummy the welder might know.
If the studs have sheared rather than just unscrew out with the nut they will be stuck in there pretty well.
Although I agree you can drill them out in situ the hardest part is maintaining alignment so you drill down the centre rather than off into the head.
I've made a small drill jig up that solves that problem. It also holds the drill in the correct position so centre punching the stud isn't an issue as long as you start slowly.
Good luck.
Congratulations. Could you post a pic, or describe it?
I did wonder how even an expert would do it. I have watched a few u-tube guys doing it, but the situation under the bonnet of an Omega is inconvenient.
One u-tube guy MIG welded a nut to a recalcitrant stud. That seemed ingenious in that the welding current could heat and free the bond.
I bear in mind that this car has failed MOT on emissions (lambda). We think this is due to the cracked manifold. This is why I was inclined to fit the manifold on the 7 remaining studs, hoping it sealed satisfactorily, and resubmit for MOT. It might not last as long, might crack, or might fail MOT again. The manifold seems fairly stiff, and was attached before by only 8 studs.
Like Nick W, I have removed manifolds before without trouble. This one has obviously been off before.
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It's just a drill jig that bolts to the inlet.
Can't decide if your being funny or sarcastic with your congratulations comment.
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It's just a drill jig that bolts to the inlet.
Can't decide if your being funny or sarcastic with your congratulations comment.
I beg your pardon. I see my comment was ambiguous. It was sincere admiration.
I have never managed to successfully extract broken off studs or screws, and not for lack of trying.
In Midsomer Norton there is a local engineering shop that does such things. Some years ago I took in a Vauxhall 2.0 exhaust manifold for welding and to have some broken off screws removed. I have used him since, he is very good, but I always have to take in the item concerned; hence my second option. However, removing the head is quite a job, and involves more expense in gaskets, etc. I did not imagine it could be done in situ; I still have my doubts. It looks particularly challengine in that the studs have broken off some way into the threads. The u-tube demonstrations all begin with grinding the end of the stud flat and centre punching it - not possible on my car.
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Terry, something like this is what I had in mind:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/oc04t3i6fvo4yjb/Untitled.jpg?raw=1)
That shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes to cobble together.
And there's loads of room to do the job in place on a four cylinder Omega.
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Terry, something like this is what I had in mind:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/oc04t3i6fvo4yjb/Untitled.jpg?raw=1)
That shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes to cobble together.
And there's loads of room to do the job in place on a four cylinder Omega.
That's almost what I made except the hole is elongated so you can position it exactly where you need it to be.
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Terry, can you post some pics of the side of the manifold that goes against the engine please.
Thanks
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/phz8bk5s8jvkyxy/exMANSface1.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/waip7hl6ptdev3q/EXmansFACE2.jpg?dl=1)
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Woops! Will try again with reduced pics
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/14lxb108ww1k7zi/manifolds1.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/3211782em4g1oiy/manifolds2.jpg?dl=1)
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Thanks Terry for the pics. So the new one is an exact match to the original one. :y
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Thanks Terry for the pics. So the new one is an exact match to the original one. :y
Indeed. That's the good news. I was half expecting something different,
Only difference I can see is 2075 and 14 12-06 00 cast in relief on the old one but absent on the new.
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Thanks again Nick W. I would need some steel strip about 5mm thick, and some steel tube 6.5mm internal diameter, and would have a better chance with some new 4mm and 6mm left hand drills Obviously you have done this job a few times before, and got the tools for the job. I still do not understand how you keep the smaller drill central to the stud. Perhaps you have a stock of jigs different internal bores.
Like welding, I am eager to learn, but lack confidence to tackle a major job like this. Some while ago I purchased a 90 degree turn drill adapter, that might come in handy on this job.
I reckon my best plan is to seek a man with kit and experience.
On another matter, an Omega 2.6 manual estate on e-bay has just been withdrawn on the grounds that 'item is either lost or broken'.
Not heard that one before.
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Curiouser and curiouser. Now I have 8 studs useable. I am missing top no. 1 and bottom no. 2.Here are pics.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/iry9a2l8m3y7vuh/LHend2gaps.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/brc92g30shzgz1a/RHend6studs.jpg?dl=1)
Don't understand that. I suppose earlier mechanic failed to insert stud in lower 3.
Now right hand end is complete, I just lack upper 1 and lower 2.
I have not yet found a man to drill out and retap, still seeking him.
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The stud could have just fell out over time ,
Clear to see that port 1 has been blowing ,which is the port with snapped studs
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Weld (or ask someone to) nuts on top of those broken studs, and carefully screw them out. They come out very easy, done it couple of times.
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Curiouser and curiouser. Now I have 8 studs useable. I am missing top no. 1 and bottom no. 2.Here are pics.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/iry9a2l8m3y7vuh/LHend2gaps.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/brc92g30shzgz1a/RHend6studs.jpg?dl=1)
Don't understand that. I suppose earlier mechanic failed to insert stud in lower 3.
Now right hand end is complete, I just lack upper 1 and lower 2.
I have not yet found a man to drill out and retap, still seeking him.
The top left must be prone to snapping. My top left is the one that's missing. I wounder if the left hand side of the manifold is getting more pressure and or hotter than the left.
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Thanks again Nick W. I would need some steel strip about 5mm thick, and some steel tube 6.5mm internal diameter, and would have a better chance with some new 4mm and 6mm left hand drills Obviously you have done this job a few times before, and got the tools for the job. I still do not understand how you keep the smaller drill central to the stud. Perhaps you have a stock of jigs different internal bores.
Like welding, I am eager to learn, but lack confidence to tackle a major job like this. Some while ago I purchased a 90 degree turn drill adapter, that might come in handy on this job.
I would make the 'jig' from a solid piece of round stock about 25mm long, bore the hole in the lathe with the drillbit I intended using to drill the stud, then face off the end that goes against the head - the other end doesn't matter. Clamp both parts to something flat, and snot them together - there's no real force involved and it's a one-off job, so don't spend any time on it. As mentioned by some else, the mounting hole in the flat piece would be better slotted; you can then centre the jig over the offending stud. Doing this by eye, with a torch is plenty good enough.
There's no need for a pilot drill with this setup; go straight in with a sharp, good quality 6mm. Buy one if you have to. As I have the lathe, I would make a custom centre punch to fit the jig out of some silver steel with a point machined on the end but it isn't strictly necessary.
Left handed drillbits are good for this job, as they sometimes unwind the stud once they start to bite which is always worth hoping for. My suggested sizes would be suitable for doing 6 or 8mm studs, not to be used in sequence.
Welding a nut on the end of the stud works well if it hasn't broken off flush. What you actually do is get a blob of weld on the stud, knock a nut over that, and firmly weld them together. Then you undo the nut while it's still red hot. You need to be confident of this technique, as if it doesn't work you have blob of hard mig weld to contend with.
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I attach our exchange about the non-delivery. I am not sure whether the carrier has lost it, or they never despatched it.
Dear customer,
thank You for the message.
Unfortunately we have a delay in transmitting the information from the shipping company therefore currently we are not available to provide the tracking number.
We are very sorry for the delay, but we are kindly asking to wait few more days as far it is international shipping.
Best regards
Marharyta
Agent
Customer Contact Centre
ATP Auto-Teile-Poellath Handels GmbH
Am Heidweg 1
92690 Pressath
------------------------------------
-----------------
Original message:
-----------------
Order for item number 10641007 from Terry Paget BA3 2Lp United Kingdom
Dear Sir,
I ordered this item 25 April 2018. Payment by paypal of 51.69 EUR took place transaction ID 9FF3141914003061G 13.35 25 April 2018. Item has not yet arrived. Please advise date of dispatch and expected delivery.
Terry Paget
5 May 2018
----
END
Just ordered one for mine. Thanks for the info Terry. Very good price. :) :y :y
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Thanks are due to Nick W for the advice. It comes with a 2 year guarantee against splitting, and all necessary gaskets, studs and nuts.
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Thanks again Nick W. I would need some steel strip about 5mm thick, and some steel tube 6.5mm internal diameter, and would have a better chance with some new 4mm and 6mm left hand drills Obviously you have done this job a few times before, and got the tools for the job. I still do not understand how you keep the smaller drill central to the stud. Perhaps you have a stock of jigs different internal bores.
Like welding, I am eager to learn, but lack confidence to tackle a major job like this. Some while ago I purchased a 90 degree turn drill adapter, that might come in handy on this job.
I would make the 'jig' from a solid piece of round stock about 25mm long, bore the hole in the lathe with the drillbit I intended using to drill the stud, then face off the end that goes against the head - the other end doesn't matter. Clamp both parts to something flat, and snot them together - there's no real force involved and it's a one-off job, so don't spend any time on it. As mentioned by some else, the mounting hole in the flat piece would be better slotted; you can then centre the jig over the offending stud. Doing this by eye, with a torch is plenty good enough.
There's no need for a pilot drill with this setup; go straight in with a sharp, good quality 6mm. Buy one if you have to. As I have the lathe, I would make a custom centre punch to fit the jig out of some silver steel with a point machined on the end but it isn't strictly necessary.
Left handed drillbits are good for this job, as they sometimes unwind the stud once they start to bite which is always worth hoping for. My suggested sizes would be suitable for doing 6 or 8mm studs, not to be used in sequence.
Welding a nut on the end of the stud works well if it hasn't broken off flush. What you actually do is get a blob of weld on the stud, knock a nut over that, and firmly weld them together. Then you undo the nut while it's still red hot. You need to be confident of this technique, as if it doesn't work you have blob of hard mig weld to contend with.
[/quoteThanks Nick. Now I understand how you do the job. It is way beyond my competence, but it's good to know how experts remove broken off studs in situ.
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I have just checked out son Ben's 2 2. Bought in 2012 40000 miles ago, it lacks the 2 front exhaust manifold studs! Manifold is not cracked though, it is quiet and passed MOT on emissions last year.
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I attach our exchange about the non-delivery. I am not sure whether the carrier has lost it, or they never despatched it.
Dear customer,
thank You for the message.
Unfortunately we have a delay in transmitting the information from the shipping company therefore currently we are not available to provide the tracking number.
We are very sorry for the delay, but we are kindly asking to wait few more days as far it is international shipping.
Best regards
Marharyta
Agent
Customer Contact Centre
ATP Auto-Teile-Poellath Handels GmbH
Am Heidweg 1
92690 Pressath
------------------------------------
-----------------
Original message:
-----------------
Order for item number 10641007 from Terry Paget BA3 2Lp United Kingdom
Dear Sir,
I ordered this item 25 April 2018. Payment by paypal of 51.69 EUR took place transaction ID 9FF3141914003061G 13.35 25 April 2018. Item has not yet arrived. Please advise date of dispatch and expected delivery.
Terry Paget
5 May 2018
----
END
I ordered a manifold on the 29th May and had not received it yet. Sent them an email on the 8th June and got this reply.
Dear customer,
thank you for your message. Due to a system rearrangement we currently cannot dispatch orders on schedule. We humbly apologize for the inconveniences. If you would like to wait for the goods, you can assume that it will be shipped within short time. We are working under highest urgency to solve the problems. Please send is an e-mail with the word ?Storno? in the subject line if you would like to cancel your order. If you have another request, we will of course process it very soon. In the meantime we kindly ask you to relinquish on further queries. Thank you very much for your understanding.
Hope I get the manifold soon.
Hows it going with the fitting of yours Terry?
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Hi Andy, thanks for asking. Not well, is the short answer.
I sg hould have popped it on the 8 studs I had, but forum advice said replace missing, so I asked my local small indepedendent garage if they could replace them. He said he could so I took the car in. next day I realised that my other 2.2 also lacked 2 studs and has passed 6 MOTs in that state, so I tried to reclaim the car, but he said they often come out easily, I said OK have a try, but if tricky return the car. After 10 days I learned they had drilled one out, yesterday they seemed embarrassed, sais could I bring in the manifold, they wanted to enlarge the holes. Oh dear.
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Lets hope all turns out OK come the end. At least once its on there it should never have to be done again.
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Hi Terry, my manifold has finally turned up. :y
How many layers of metal does your exhaust gasket have that forms the complete gasket?
Mine has 3. Two identical and one that looks like a surround cutout of the other 2. It doesn't look right to me, having said that I've never seen one for the Omega before. Here's what mine looks like.
(https://s6.postimg.cc/f0kddozup/P1050041.jpg)
(https://s6.postimg.cc/xg4ub3tep/P1050038.jpg)
(https://s6.postimg.cc/4dqk8aeup/P1050040.jpg)
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MLS gasket *multi layer steel
looks a bit ragged , did you think you had 3 and tried pulling it apart ?
you need to get the mating surface clean / smooth for MLS gaskets
not like the old fiber ones with fire rings of steel, progress :(
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MLS gasket *multi layer steel
looks a bit ragged , did you think you had 3 and tried pulling it apart ?
you need to get the mating surface clean / smooth for MLS gaskets
not like the old fiber ones with fire rings of steel, progress :(
That's how the gasket arrived it was already bent like that in its packaging.
Never seen one like that before. There are three electric weld marks that hold the three together and stick out. Looks like I will have to file them down flush carefully to make them fit flush as possible. If I wanted to fit a better one what make of gasket would you recommend one?
Thanks
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MLS are the better type to fit, rather than the older composite type
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That's how the gasket arrived it was already bent like that in its packaging.
Never seen one like that before. There are three electric weld marks that hold the three together and stick out. Looks like I will have to file them down flush carefully to make them fit flush as possible. If I wanted to fit a better one what make of gasket would you recommend one?
Thanks
Sorry for late reply , busy weekend .
quick search shows the PAYEN one is MLS
Elring is MLS,
BGA unknown
If you think your going to have to file the one you have ,then it sounds damaged
an MLS gasket will seal , just saying you need to clean the mating surface of the head up(no corrosion,oil etc)
advise you don't use any gum gum or other sealant before the cat in exhaust system
tighten the studs like you would a head gasket job , round in circles ,quarter turn each nut to bite it down even
don't overtighten
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That's how the gasket arrived it was already bent like that in its packaging.
Never seen one like that before. There are three electric weld marks that hold the three together and stick out. Looks like I will have to file them down flush carefully to make them fit flush as possible. If I wanted to fit a better one what make of gasket would you recommend one?
Thanks
Sorry for late reply , busy weekend .
quick search shows the PAYEN one is MLS
Elring is MLS,
BGA unknown
If you think your going to have to file the one you have ,then it sounds damaged
an MLS gasket will seal , just saying you need to clean the mating surface of the head up(no corrosion,oil etc)
advise you don't use any gum gum or other sealant before the cat in exhaust system
tighten the studs like you would a head gasket job , round in circles ,quarter turn each nut to bite it down even
don't overtighten
The gasket does look rough. It was put into the same cardboard box as the manifold and the manifold has damaged the gasket in transit. Where they have electric welded the three parts of the gasket together it has left the metal rough and proud of the main gasket. Its those three weld points that I need to file down and also there are a few small creases around the outer edge of the gasket.
I might just get in touch with ATP and ask them to send another gasket.
TheBoy said above that the MLS are the better gaskets to fit these days.
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Just had a look at Terry's photos of his gasket and I've noticed a difference. His gasket has only one weld and mine has three. The centre weld doesn't need to be flat because its in line with a cavity on the manifold. My two extra welds will be on the two flat mating surfaces so shouldn't be there at all and will prevent the gasket from sealing properly.
I'm not going to mess with it, I am going to ask for a replacement.
Thanks for all your help.
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Might be quicker to ask for a refund, be prepared to send pics...
There's a Payen one on ebay for £8.46 :y
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Might be quicker to ask for a refund, be prepared to send pics...
There's a Payen one on ebay for £8.46 :y
Good idea, I'll do that on Monday and send some close up photos. :y
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New exhaust manifold fitted. Emissions still wrong. Diagnostic live data show P0170 lean exhaust. Both lambda sensors have active heaters, but sensor 1 reads a steady 20mV lean, sensor 2 reads higher voltages occasionally, but still lean, O2 loop open. As I watched it the O2 loop suddenly went closed, but not for long.
I have no idea what is wrong. Please help!
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Was it hot enough to go closed loop?
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Was it hot enough to go closed loop?
I presume so. It went into closed loop briefly, but then fell out again. Water temp was high, engien had been running at 300rpm for several minutes.
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I seem to recall if the system isn't closed loop, you cant believe the lamda readings.
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I seem to recall if the system isn't closed loop, you cant believe the lamda readings.
Right. With O2 loop closed, the lambda sensor informantion is in feed back with the air flow sensor. Working normally the mixture should read rich-lean-rich-lean every second or so. This results in the lambda reading on the MOT emission kit giving a reading of 1.00.
My other cars soon go into closed loop; not this one. Something is wrong. My hunch is the 1st lambda sensor, with its low voltage message on the diagnostic. I understand a sensor output voltage flips from low to high as the mixture goes from lean to rich. I guess 10mV is even lower than it should be, suggesting a sick sensor. .
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What is the coolant temp sensor reading (the one for ECU, not the instrument guage)
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This results in the lambda reading on the MOT emission kit giving a reading of 1.00.
what did it fail on ? % CO ? what reading ?
lambda of 1.00 is within range (0.97 - 1.03)
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What is the coolant temp sensor reading (the one for ECU, not the instrument guage)
105 degrees at 3000rpm, falling to 96 degrees at idle.
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This results in the lambda reading on the MOT emission kit giving a reading of 1.00.
what did it fail on ? % CO ? what reading ?
lambda of 1.00 is within range (0.97 - 1.03)
Failed on lambda not being .97 and 1.03.
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Exact number ???
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This results in the lambda reading on the MOT emission kit giving a reading of 1.00.
what did it fail on ? % CO ? what reading ?
lambda of 1.00 is within range (0.97 - 1.03)
Failed on lambda not being .97 and 1.03.
upper and lower limits ,,so 1.00 is in the middle surely ???
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This results in the lambda reading on the MOT emission kit giving a reading of 1.00.
what did it fail on ? % CO ? what reading ?
lambda of 1.00 is within range (0.97 - 1.03)
Failed on lambda not being .97 and 1.03.
Sorry, not between those numbers. In fact it was above them, drifting about between 1.2 and 1.04.
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More data. Looked in my parts heap for a spare lambda sensor, 2 3-wire ones there but no 4 wires sensor. Spotted a box there labelled new 2.2 MAF. Fitted it. Now it does go into O2 closed loop, and the 1/1sensor does flip lean-rich-lean-rich, good news. However the 1/2 sensor is now stuck on rich, and the spanner light is on. Reading fault codes up comes P1555 throttle position load signal implausible with engine load.
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This morning I swopped MAF sensor with Ben's 2.2. That went into closed O2 loop when warming up, but came out again when hot. lambda sensor readings were all lean. I replaced the 'new' MAF sensor, lambda readings were more varied, but enginer neveer entered closed O2 loop. Despair!
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check manifold and ALL exhaust connections are not blowing when hot but be careful
a small piece of tissue ,held with long nose pliers ,like a flag can help find blows :y
you did plug the lambdas in the right plugs when swapping cats etc ?
can you remember the CO and HC readings when the lambda was reading 1.2 or whatever (when it failed test ?)
i have to go out, will read through all this later , so many bits changed now :-\
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MOT passed today, phew! Thanks to all who have given advice and encouragement.
First MOT failed on emissions, serious crack in exhaust manifold likely cause. With new exhaust manifold fitted it struggled through on emisssions, but failed on handbrake, which mysteriously let me down when during the test the dynamic load caused the RH handbrake mechanism to collapse in some way. I drove it home and stripped the RH handbrake, found nothing obviously wrong and nothing broken, so I reassembled it with some less worn shoes. I had some more trouble with emissions, O2 loop was not always going into closed mode. I swopped MAF sensors twice and it changed things, but did not guarantee good behaviour. I submitted the car again anyway, and tester only retested what had failed before, so it passed.
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Congrats on the pass :)
Be wise to check live data again ,if post cat is rich constantly ,your cat will die
petrol and cats are expensive
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Good result, well earned ;)
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Congratulations on the pass,you deserve it for your perseverance if naught else :y Doesn't sound as though you're quite out of the woods with it yet though :'(
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Congrats on the pass :)
Be wise to check live data again ,if post cat is rich constantly ,your cat will die
petrol and cats are expensive
Thanks, will do. Post cat mixture seems to depend on the MAF sensor. Engine seemed to run equally well with all the sensors. I have another 2.2 in the fleet, but I cannot face it just yet.