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[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

The overriding thing to me is that the EU won,t give the UK any form of a reasonable deal, is because their modus operandii is if we don,t vote the way they want they hope we will keep trying until we crawl into line. Sorry if this is (slightly) off topic but that,s how i see it. Let,s get out on Halloween and make our way in the world. Same as we did before Heath and his cronies took us in. Getting totally pissed off with the whole farce. Brian Rix, where are you.

Showing your age there Ronny.....

[TheBoy]

But this insignificant lump in the North Sea has no bargaining powers.

Err....we're the fifth largest economy in the world. Not an insignificant lump. 

Post war, only since the 80/90s.  Guess how we got there

Yes, but we're the fifth largest economy now – hence we have bargaining power.

Oh, and our position has nowt to do with the EU, though a fair bit to do with Europe.

No, we have no bargaining, because the EU know we are nothing without Europe.  They fully understand that they hold all the aces, and at any negotiation means the UK has nothing to bargain with.  And that's why there is no deal to be had, despite what Boris Farage lied promised during the referendum.  Much like the lie promise of all that money to plough into the NHS, which they have already gone way back on

[ronnyd]

The overriding thing to me is that the EU won,t give the UK any form of a reasonable deal, is because their modus operandii is if we don,t vote the way they want they hope we will keep trying until we crawl into line. Sorry if this is (slightly) off topic but that,s how i see it. Let,s get out on Halloween and make our way in the world. Same as we did before Heath and his cronies took us in. Getting totally pissed off with the whole farce. Brian Rix, where are you.

Showing your age there Ronny.....

Sure am M,Lord 

[Rods2]

Another important part of our constitution is the presidents & procedures on how Parliament works. I recently bought myself a slightly out of date 2nd hand book on this as the latest versions are expensive.

As mentioned earlier our unwritten constitution can updated by simple Commons majorities, this is a blessing as it allows sensible changes to be made and also a potential danger & possible curse if you've got a parliament, say lead by a terrorist loving Marxist, that by a simple majority can abolishing our democracy & turn us into a one party state.

What has become clear with Brexit is where our parliament has been so enfeebled & undermined here & likewise in all EU states that most of the current crop of MPs are quite incapable of anything beyond virtual signaling, gesture, identity politics so most can't run the country or make decisions which means they can't do the job they are elected for or earn their salaries and 'creative' monthly expenses.

Once parliament were progued for the summer break Dominic Cummings pointed out that it was now too late to stop Brexit. If Boris lost a vote of no confidence (by no means certain) he then has 14 days to either resign or to try & get a majority vote to continue or call a general election. Realistically, the earliest this vote could be held is early November once we have left the EU on WTO terms. The only way remain MPs can now stop Brexit is by revoking Article 50 which would finish the careers of most of the politicians who went down that route. What has changed in the polls since Boris became PM is the Conservative polling, where they are the lead party again with 30%+ & the collapse of Labour where they are hovering around 20%. I suspect what will really hit Labour hard will be the Northern vote, who will never vote Tory because of the miners strike but will the Brexit party where they were the most dominate Leave areas in the UK.

Although parliament is sovereign the whole strength of democracy is that we get to hire & fire them every 5 years through the ballot box & this has a considerable moderating effect on what governments & MPs do where they want to be reelected again. Major's ERM fiasco, Maastricht Treaty shenanigans & general incompetence lead to their 1997 ballot box hammering & to 13 years & an incompetent PM with Gordon 'no more boom or bust' McRuin before the Tories got a sniff of power in 2010 with a minority government & coalition.

I suspect the next few weeks are going to be interesting but master strategist Dominic Commings & Boris have certainly taken the initiative, made the right strategic calls so far & put remain MPs of their back foot & if they keep doing this I think the odds will be on Boris' side in getting this over the line.

One this is certain is that UK politics will never be the same again & I live in hope that this if for the better.

Where it has been mentioned the our parliament is sovereign this is not strictly true until we leave the EU as EU law & ECJ rulings currently take precedence over UK law until we leave & have repealed the 1986 Single European Act.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Ultimately,Parliamentary sovereignty, constitutional rules or traditions, or any other machinery of government comes second to the people, because ultimately, those who rule and govern can only do so with the consent and compliance of the people.
If in doubt ask the French, the Russians or the peoples of the former USSR.
Once those who rule seriously ignore that fact, they are on borrowed time. I believe our current rulers need to be strongly reminded of this, and it could happen soon, if they use the rules and legalities to break their promises to the people in a such a very serious manner.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Ultimately,Parliamentary sovereignty, constitutional rules or traditions, or any other machinery of government comes second to the people, because ultimately, those who rule and govern can only do so with the consent and compliance of the people.
If in doubt ask the French, the Russians or the peoples of the former USSR.
Once those who rule seriously ignore that fact, they are on borrowed time. I believe our current rulers need to be strongly reminded of this, and it could happen soon, if they use the rules and legalities to break their promises to the people in a such a very serious manner.

Agreed

This is what I said in my earlier post:

However, all the MP's of Parliament and the Government take a huge risk politically, and career wise, if they do ignore the will of the people over a major national issue - such as BREXIT.  Just listen to what is being said on the streets by "the people" about the whole BREXIT affair, and now with these latest developments. The people, you and me, along with those normally lacking any interest in this subject, have had enough of the politicians and what is seen by them as 'anti-democratic' actions. What we will do remains of course to be seen, and talk of "a revolution" is probably unrealistic as we are British and do not go in for such things!  But, come any future General Election the fragmentation of political parties and British politics will be severe.  The complete lack of trust now is so obvious  Boris MAY rescue the Conservatives if he brings BREXIT home, but if not it will be curtains, but not only for him but Corbyn and Labour as well.

They will then know, along with many of their colleagues, what it means to take no notice of the electorate and destroy the trust of the people.

Now, as said I think a revolution of the French variety can be ruled out, but the people can revolt and form their own political movements, like the Chartists of 1838-48, to aggressively push for full democratic change.  Just because there is a Parliament who believe they can push the public around and ignore us, does not mean "the people" cannot go for a complete overthrow of the system.  A certain King thought he could do what he liked, but a Civil War proved otherwise. The politicians of today should not take for granted they can do what they like; the people can democractically prove them wrong all so easily!

[Migalot]

Ultimately,Parliamentary sovereignty, constitutional rules or traditions, or any other machinery of government comes second to the people, because ultimately, those who rule and govern can only do so with the consent and compliance of the people.
If in doubt ask the French, the Russians or the peoples of the former USSR.
Once those who rule seriously ignore that fact, they are on borrowed time. I believe our current rulers need to be strongly reminded of this, and it could happen soon, if they use the rules and legalities to break their promises to the people in a such a very serious manner.

Couldn't agree more! 

[Nick W]

The referendum and Brexit have been, are and will be for the foreseeable future, a disaster.


Maybe the utter incompetence of our leaders and governments over the last thirty years will force the issue, and bring about the change in our system of government that is now obviously overdue. We should take a long, hard, realistic and honest look at ourselves in the process. The monarchy is unlikely to survive the next king without some wide ranging changes too.


Perhaps we will come up with some scheme that is fit for purpose, although it's difficult to be optimistic about it.

[Varche]

Perhaps it would have been better to stay in the EU with a puppet government in place in London with the real decisions being made by some not elected by us experts like Tusk and Juncker

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

When is someone going to have the guts to expel Ken Clarke from the Tory party. His love for all things EU has blinded him to all reason.
Years ago he said he looked forward to the day when Westminster was nothing more than a council chamber.
Today he said he would vote against his own Government, and vote for installing Corbyn in Number 10, if Corbyn was the candidate put up to lead a national unity Govt.
He would actually vote for the man who supported the people who attempted to murder the whole Tory Govt. in the 80,s !  > as long as it means there would be a chance of keeping us in his beloved EU   

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Ultimately,Parliamentary sovereignty, constitutional rules or traditions, or any other machinery of government comes second to the people, because ultimately, those who rule and govern can only do so with the consent and compliance of the people.
If in doubt ask the French, the Russians or the peoples of the former USSR.
Once those who rule seriously ignore that fact, they are on borrowed time. I believe our current rulers need to be strongly reminded of this, and it could happen soon, if they use the rules and legalities to break their promises to the people in a such a very serious manner.

LC0112G is probably correct when it comes to 'points of law' but I think that Francophile Albs  is correct to look at the bigger picture.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

If it all goes tits up a civil war will sort it out.........eventually.

[Lizzie Zoom]

When is someone going to have the guts to expel Ken Clarke from the Tory party. His love for all things EU has blinded him to all reason.
Years ago he said he looked forward to the day when Westminster was nothing more than a council chamber.
Today he said he would vote against his own Government, and vote for installing Corbyn in Number 10, if Corbyn was the candidate put up to lead a national unity Govt.
He would actually vote for the man who supported the people who attempted to murder the whole Tory Govt. in the 80,s !  > as long as it means there would be a chance of keeping us in his beloved EU   

Now also the "Grey Man", John Major you can add to the list!

This morning I have heard he has turned on Boris, his plans, and supported Corbyn in his efforts to destroy the Government!!

[Lizzie Zoom]

If it all goes tits up a civil war will sort it out.........eventually.

Ah, so someone read my post Opti!!

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

If it all goes tits up a civil war will sort it out.........eventually.

Ah, so someone read my post Opti!!

Lizzie....as a small child we had a cat called Cromwell, although it was much later before I became aware of the significance. :-*Cromwell is many years dead now, much like his namesake.