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Author Topic: aftermarket stereo with bose  (Read 4666 times)

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Mr Skrunts

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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #15 on: 19 June 2008, 00:24:24 »

You pays yer money and takes yer chance.


Red to red
Black to black
Switch on
and stand well back.


I personally am happy to follow Davs DND and his advice, but only time will tell on the mods and upgrade's.

Good Luck.   :y :y :y
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Ian_D

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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #16 on: 19 June 2008, 03:03:40 »

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Quote
Seems like a NO then.
Unless you've tried it for yourself and found out the hard way then nobody's in a position to comment.

The fact that ian and marini have tried it and it appears to work should mean that it's definately not to be ruled out.

So, to the guys that have got it working, is the volume level on your head unit very sensitive???

Secondly Dave, some in-car amps will drive 2 ohm speakers and have a switch for this very purpose so not necessarily required to rip out standard speakers should you choose to go down the route of an aftermarket amp.

I wonder, given that the levels/impedances appear to be a problem, if an attenuator could be found/made.

Up to now (Pioneer unit has been in about 4 months now) I haven’t had any problems at all...

Volume wise, it maybe a little bit louder than the setup I had in the vectra when the volume is at the same level, however I fail to see how this can do damage? (Im not saying it can't either)

At the end of the day, providing you don’t push the bose system higher than its capable of (which seems a lot, as I have cranked mine up a reasonable amount, and haven’t come across any distortion yet) it appears to be fine.

I have had the music blasting out loudish (would need to shout loud if I wanted to talk to a passenger) for a good 20 - 30 mins, jumped out, and quickly gone to check the temp of the amp... It was only aired.

I’m not saying this will work for everyone, however up to now, im happy with it.
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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #17 on: 19 June 2008, 03:07:31 »

Quote
Red to red
Black to black
Switch on
and stand well back.


Reminds me of when I fitted the airbag to my first car! (Escort)

I was stood outside the car, with my arm through the window turning the ignition on for the first time just incase  ;D

Lucky it was ok, and didn't go bang  :)
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Dave DND

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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #18 on: 19 June 2008, 09:55:55 »

Quote
Volume wise, it maybe a little bit louder than the setup I had in the vectra when the volume is at the same level, however I fail to see how this can do damage? (Im not saying it can't either)

At the end of the day, providing you don’t push the bose system higher than its capable of (which seems a lot, as I have cranked mine up a reasonable amount, and haven’t come across any distortion yet) it appears to be fine.

You are quite correct about the "No Distortion" and that is a very important point to note. In all cases, the presence of distortion would indicate a problem and would require immediate attention.

However, The BOSE system amplifier and speakers are all so perfectly matched to each other, and it is unlikely that you would ever experience any distortion on this sytem, which is one of the main reasons that there are so many fans of it. Whilst I am not personally a fan of BOSE, (due to my job of supplying much better) I will accept that for an OEM system it is quite tolerable.

The problems lie between the head unit and amplifier. The amplifier is looking for a voltage to drive it that is between line level (RCA) and speaker level, and the majority of head units can not supply this correctly. An incorrect voltage applied to the amplifier will certainly give sound, but the gradual volume control is now very "errattic" and no longer in smooth steps as the amplifier is now effectively being overdriven. Overdriving an amplifier can cause problems.

The other issue is that the amplification stage in the head unit is very basic and has very little in the way of protection circuits. If connected to a 4 Ohm speaker it will perform well, but as the BOSE amplifier gives a different load impedance to a standard speaker you are effectively short circuiting the head units outputs, or at best applying a different load for which is was designed to run. Some head units may tolerate this for a while, but the majority will not. Overheating is almost certain, and in many cases the internal amplifier chips will literally explode.

As previously stated, there are BOSE adaptors out there for other vehicles, and as (to the best of my knowledge) the BOSE input levels appear to be the same across all manufacturers, it would make sense to try to adapt one for use on the Omega. We have tried similar with Honda BOSE units using the Porsch/Audi convertors with excellent results, no reason to see why it won`t work with Vauxhall.

One of the problems I face in trying to help people with problems such as this via forums, is that although I can point out many technical "Do`s" and "Don`ts" there will always be others that come back and say that they have done it and it works perfectly, only to be faced with some more serious problems a bit later on.

If I put some diesel into my Ferrari, I have no doubt that it would start and run for a short while, but could that be called a success against all others advising me the reasons why I shouldn`t?

Just because you can, it doesn`t mean that you should !!

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Dave DND

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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #19 on: 19 June 2008, 09:59:32 »

Quote
Reminds me of when I fitted the airbag to my first car! (Escort)

I was stood outside the car, with my arm through the window turning the ignition on for the first time just incase  

I watched in horror once as the fitters of a competitor of mine decided to remove the (airbag) headrests of a Volvo whilst the keys were in the ignition and the stereo playing.

You would be astounded as to the noise made by around 10 airbags instantly deploying.

The fitter survived that, but I think got a beating from the Boss !!
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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #20 on: 19 June 2008, 10:01:39 »

Quote
Red to red
Black to black
Switch on
and stand well back

Stand well back for sure !!

Some Vauxhall use Blacks and Browns as LIVES !!!!!
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zirk

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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #21 on: 19 June 2008, 10:28:48 »

Seems like a MAYBE then.
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zirk

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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #22 on: 19 June 2008, 10:37:54 »

Quote
Quote
Reminds me of when I fitted the airbag to my first car! (Escort)

I was stood outside the car, with my arm through the window turning the ignition on for the first time just incase  

I watched in horror once as the fitters of a competitor of mine decided to remove the (airbag) headrests of a Volvo whilst the keys were in the ignition and the stereo playing.

You would be astounded as to the noise made by around 10 airbags instantly deploying.

The fitter survived that, but I think got a beating from the Boss !!

Was that Boss or Bose!
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Dave DND

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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #23 on: 19 June 2008, 10:46:57 »

Quote
Was that Boss or Bose!

Lol !

 ;D ;D ;D ;D
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davlad22

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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #24 on: 19 June 2008, 11:48:45 »

Quote
Quote
Unless you've tried it for yourself and found out the hard way then nobody's in a position to comment

Erm, actually, I`m probably one of the best people to comment - our repair centre has been inundated over the years with peole unsuccessfully trying to connect to BOSE equipment.

Quote
Seems like a YES then (for someone).
Sorry gents, didn't mean to sound short. It was more a response to zirk, when after 2 other lads had said they'd done it, actually stated, in fewer words, it couldn't be done.

It infuriates me the amount of hearsay that goes on within the electronics industry, I work in sales/installation of AV, as such our shop also has a workshop and the amount of bull$hit people/engineers/customers come up with is just ridiculous! Mostly because they are uneducated, just like sheep following what the other bloke does/says, just like the people buying bose. We have learned, that to test and investigate equipment, you have to try it for yourself. That way, you really WILL know if it works or not. This is only a internet user board, we can only offer advice.

Quote
Quote
Secondly Dave, some in-car amps will drive 2 ohm speakers and have a switch for this very purpose so not necessarily required to rip out standard speakers should you choose to go down the route of an aftermarket amp

Thats true, but many people are simply connecting an aftermarket head unit instead, and none of those will run four channels at 2 Ohms.
But the speaker cables are fed to the boot space so an aftermarket amp would be required, unless new speaker cable is laid, when, you might as well change the speakers. As such, it is in the owners interest to ask questions and purchase the correct equipment.
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Dave DND

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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #25 on: 19 June 2008, 12:10:43 »

Quote
Seems like a YES then (for someone).
Sorry gents, didn't mean to sound short. It was more a response to zirk, when after 2 other lads had said they'd done it, actually stated, in fewer words, it couldn't be done.

I`ve never said it couldn`t be done, I`ve maintained that it SHOULDN`T be done.  ::)

Quote
It infuriates me the amount of hearsay that goes on within the electronics industry, I work in sales/installation of AV, as such our shop also has a workshop and the amount of bull$hit people/engineers/customers come up with is just ridiculous! Mostly because they are uneducated, just like sheep following what the other bloke does/says

Ah !  A fellow Soulmate !!   ;)

Quote
This is only a internet user board, we can only offer advice

The Internet can be as dangerous as it is helpfull though - I heard a statistic that around 80% of global emails are now unwanted spam - I wonder what percentage of the info on the Internet is duff?  No substitue to tracking down an expert and having a face to face conversation in a respected shop / environment etc.

Quote
But the speaker cables are fed to the boot space so an aftermarket amp would be required, unless new speaker cable is laid, when, you might as well change the speakers

Agree, there is really no quick solution to removal, Vauxhall did a class job of screwing this one up - it really all does have to be replaced - wires an all.   :(


Ok, heres a thought then . . . .
Maybe there is a market for me in designing a BOSE adaptor then for Vauxhall Omega`s ?  Is there enough demand out there for it? If so, would you want to connect to RCA or speakers outputs of an OEM head unit?   :-?

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zirk

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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #26 on: 19 June 2008, 12:44:24 »

Quote
Quote
Quote
Unless you've tried it for yourself and found out the hard way then nobody's in a position to comment

Erm, actually, I`m probably one of the best people to comment - our repair centre has been inundated over the years with peole unsuccessfully trying to connect to BOSE equipment.

Quote
Seems like a YES then (for someone).
Sorry gents, didn't mean to sound short. It was more a response to zirk, when after 2 other lads had said they'd done it, actually stated, in fewer words, it couldn't be done.
It infuriates me the amount of hearsay that goes on within the electronics industry, I work in sales/installation of AV, as such our shop also has a workshop and the amount of bull$hit people/engineers/customers come up with is just ridiculous! Mostly because they are uneducated, just like sheep following what the other bloke does/says, just like the people buying bose. We have learned, that to test and investigate equipment, you have to try it for yourself. That way, you really WILL know if it works or not. This is only a internet user board, we can only offer advice.

Quote
Quote
Secondly Dave, some in-car amps will drive 2 ohm speakers and have a switch for this very purpose so not necessarily required to rip out standard speakers should you choose to go down the route of an aftermarket amp

Thats true, but many people are simply connecting an aftermarket head unit instead, and none of those will run four channels at 2 Ohms.
But the speaker cables are fed to the boot space so an aftermarket amp would be required, unless new speaker cable is laid, when, you might as well change the speakers. As such, it is in the owners interest to ask questions and purchase the correct equipment.

I actually said ‘Seems like a NO then’, even TB said it was a ‘non starter’, noticed he’s not getting comments?

Ok, going to put my neck on the block now and say, Yes it could be done, assuming you have the right knowledge, tools and test equipment.

Firstly a few things to consider, there’s a big difference between Audio levels to Speaker (Low Impedance) and Audio Line levels (High Impedance) as weave already established. Its not all about getting the right levels matched (Volts) but also the correct impedance, a miss match in impedance can cause strange effects ranging from an increase to quiescent noise (standby / background noise) to changes to the signal frequency response, i.e. the sound has too much Bass or Treble instead of sounding Flat.

It’s also worth considering Audio levels and the Human Ear, the human ear does not responded to linear level changes. In other words you need 10 times as much level change for the Ear to recognise that level to be twice as loud, i.e., going from 10 Watts to 100 Watts is recognised as being twice as loud to the Ear.

All Audio level changes (Volume and Pre Set Controls) are logarithmic, so again as Dave pointed out a miss match could give you an all or nothing effect on the volume control with the added bonus of too much distortion at an early stage of volume, which is not how the system was designed to work, added with the possibility of frying the Front End of the Amplifier.

Some people ears associate distortion as being Loud, then by turning down the volume a couple of db’s gives the effect of being greatly reduced in volume, but in fact its just the ear determine the difference between a clean and distorted sound, with  the system reaching its limitations (i.e. Squaring the waveform).

You may think I’m waffling on a bit here, but the real point I’m try to make is that unlike most things today variable, Audio modules are not designed for Plug and Play without consequence results.

If you really want to do the Head Unit to Bose thing properly, you going to need the following.

Dual Beam Oscilloscope, a decent 4 Ohm load, a quality Volt and Impedance meter, and of course a Bose set up and the Target Head Unit. That way you can measure the Peak or Peak to Peak levels going into 4 Ohms, and with some simple maths, calculate the RMS volt levels (0.7071 DC levels at that impedance) and determine the correct audio and impedance levels when then inputting the HU to the Bose Amp, then again measure the New HU into 4 Ohms, then make the necessary wire wound resistor array to suit the Donner Head Unit.

Most things are possible, but people can only advise on what’s practical under the circumstance.

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Dave DND

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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #27 on: 19 June 2008, 12:54:56 »

Very well said

 ;)
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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #28 on: 19 June 2008, 14:26:32 »

Quote
Some people ears associate distortion as being Loud, then by turning down the volume a couple of db’s gives the effect of being greatly reduced in volume, but in fact its just the ear determine the difference between a clean and distorted sound, with  the system reaching its limitations (i.e. Squaring the waveform).

You may think I’m waffling on a bit here, but the real point I’m try to make is that unlike most things today variable, Audio modules are not designed for Plug and Play without consequence results.

If you really want to do the Head Unit to Bose thing properly, you going to need the following.

Dual Beam Oscilloscope, a decent 4 Ohm load, a quality Volt and Impedance meter, and of course a Bose set up and the Target Head Unit. That way you can measure the Peak or Peak to Peak levels going into 4 Ohms, and with some simple maths, calculate the RMS volt levels (0.7071 DC levels at that impedance) and determine the correct audio and impedance levels when then inputting the HU to the Bose Amp, then again measure the New HU into 4 Ohms, then make the necessary wire wound resistor array to suit the Donner Head Unit.

I will firstly say that everything I know about electronics is self taught from guess / experimenting / reading stuff on the web.  :-[

Now, I would be interested to actually carry out them tests. I’m new to oscilloscopes. Is a Dual Beam Oscilloscope the same as a dual trace? If it is I’ve got two collecting dust, I haven't got round to using yet, so this sounds like a good excuse to dig them out!  :)

If you used wire wound resistors, would they act as a low pass filter? Just thinking about them acting like a coil/inductor? Again, if I’m honest, I’ve know idea if it would have this effect or not, just a question really!

Now I know impedance matching is important on the output stage (esp when output transformers are used like in valve amps), but I didn’t know it was as important on the input to an amp?

I also didn’t realise that the headunit could potentially be seeing a dead short when powering an amp! I always assumed it would be the other way round, and that if anything the amp wouldn't have enough of load  to drive  :-/

Look forward to reading peoples opinions / answers on this topic!  :y

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Dave DND

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Re: aftermarket stereo with bose
« Reply #29 on: 19 June 2008, 14:59:06 »

Quote
Now I know impedance matching is important on the output stage (esp when output transformers are used like in valve amps), but I didn’t know it was as important on the input to an amp?

It may be the input to the amp, but it is still the OUTPUT stage of the head unit. Same problem, just earlier on in the chain.

If you are new to electronics, I would suggest a trip to the local library and do some quick research on impedance matching and attenuation circuits, and in view of the question about wire wound resistors, some research into filters also - (capacitive and resistive network theory are a good place to start researching if you are a complete novice) - and then have a go

Good luck with it  :y
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