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Author Topic: If you must do 'lectrickery...  (Read 1967 times)

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05omegav6

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If you must do 'lectrickery...
« on: 13 August 2014, 19:25:29 »

... might as well do it right 8)

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Andy B

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #1 on: 13 August 2014, 19:27:50 »

what is it?  :-[ :-[
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r1

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #2 on: 13 August 2014, 19:32:12 »

what is it?  :-[ :-[

its a bmw

you can tell by the way its parked.
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pauls

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #3 on: 13 August 2014, 19:35:38 »

Is that the new Bmw I8
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05omegav6

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #4 on: 13 August 2014, 19:53:13 »

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Mr.OmegaMan

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #5 on: 13 August 2014, 19:54:11 »

Must admit I do like the Tesla S  8) :y
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Andy B

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #6 on: 13 August 2014, 19:59:31 »

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05omegav6

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #7 on: 13 August 2014, 20:17:27 »

Probably...
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Mr.OmegaMan

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #8 on: 13 August 2014, 20:46:06 »

Would make an interesting Taxi vehicle that for you DPWWO
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relluf

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #9 on: 13 August 2014, 21:21:12 »

I saw the same thing at Keele services last week but it was a white one, owner was starting to look very bored and kept sticking his head inside,I guess to see how charge was going! No idea how long it takes to charge em but he looked well fed up!.
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05omegav6

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #10 on: 14 August 2014, 00:52:51 »

Depends on the charger, but apparently the car can only accept a charge current of 32 amps, presumably for domestic supply reasons :-\

Good for 240 miles though :y

I think on a public charger it's about two hours, start to finish. Takes all night on a domestic supply, but costs about £2.80, a comparable exec costs about £100 to fill and might manage 360 miles. No road tax/congestion charge either...

Had a good chat with the driver, and he rated it well above his previous car, a Lexus hybrid.

Electric cars are starting to get serious, and as the range gets more useful, the limited (ie only two points at Cobham services) charging points outside Lundun, will become less relevant...
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05omegav6

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #11 on: 14 August 2014, 05:52:53 »

Would make an interesting Taxi vehicle that for you DPWWO
About £70ks worth...  ::)
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Gaffers

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #12 on: 14 August 2014, 07:46:10 »

As discussed last night the model III is due out in 2017 and it will have the same battery technology for about £30k.  I drove the model S a couple of years back and I was astounded by it.  The torque at full chat nearly hurt my neck. It is a fantastic motor and what put me on the path of an electric car in the first place.

If only we had the same tax breaks as they do in the US the model S would be more affordable.
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05omegav6

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #13 on: 14 August 2014, 08:25:01 »

After a brief rummage, both versions of the 85kw one can be leased from £848+Vat per month, (£1017)...

Hp payments would be similar... this sounds alot, but assuming it costs a maximum of £10 to charge it, and it manages 200 miles on each charge, that is 5p per mile. Worst case, wrt range/fuel cost.

The E class is 22p per mile. So for every 1000 miles the Tesla will cost £50, whereas the E class costs £220.

Over 4000 miles/1 month, the Tesla would cost £1600 including tyres, insurance and servicing.
The E class costs £1710 including fuel, tyres, insurance, servicing and tax.

The Tesla is significantly cheaper to own, inspite of costing 4 times more...

Factor in a 100% write off in the first year, against 20% for the Merc, and it starts to look very attractive indeed  :o  ::)
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Gaffers

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #14 on: 14 August 2014, 08:35:13 »

Another convert ::) :y
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Taxi_Driver

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #15 on: 17 August 2014, 17:32:47 »

After a brief rummage, both versions of the 85kw one can be leased from £848+Vat per month, (£1017)...

Hp payments would be similar... this sounds alot, but assuming it costs a maximum of £10 to charge it, and it manages 200 miles on each charge, that is 5p per mile. Worst case, wrt range/fuel cost.

The E class is 22p per mile. So for every 1000 miles the Tesla will cost £50, whereas the E class costs £220.

Over 4000 miles/1 month, the Tesla would cost £1600 including tyres, insurance and servicing.
The E class costs £1710 including fuel, tyres, insurance, servicing and tax.

The Tesla is significantly cheaper to own, inspite of costing 4 times more...

Factor in a 100% write off in the first year, against 20% for the Merc, and it starts to look very attractive indeed  :o  ::)

You get less than 28mpg from the E class  :o :o (assuming 1.35/litre for diesel)
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05omegav6

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #16 on: 17 August 2014, 19:50:46 »

That was beer mat maths, car is doing 33ish to the gallon, which isn't great, but is consistent over the last 10k miles...

Fuel costs are about equal to the Omega in ppm terms :-\
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Taxi_Driver

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #17 on: 17 August 2014, 20:00:06 »

That was beer mat maths, car is doing 33ish to the gallon, which isn't great, but is consistent over the last 10k miles...

Fuel costs are about equal to the Omega in ppm terms :-\

Ok.....but thats still pretty rubbish in my books.....unless you drive it hard all the time....get an VRS....you'll 45mpg about town...55mpg on a run.....rubbish when you have fun with it  :-X ::) ;D

But then i have the driver involvement pack fitted  ;)
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05omegav6

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #18 on: 17 August 2014, 20:27:12 »

My Seat never bettered 36mpg, so I think I'll pass... ;D
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Varche

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #19 on: 18 August 2014, 14:02:25 »

Wouldn't you also have to factor in consumables? In this case a set of batteries. How many years do they last before not holding their charge anymore? Or sell it with a discount- think V6 cambelt cost reduction on an Omega.

I do agree that electric or hybrid cars is the future and with wireless recharging.
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Kevin Wood

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #20 on: 18 August 2014, 14:17:31 »

I'm not so sure. To make an electric car work you need a battery. Mankind has been making batteries for over 200 years, so it's a "mature" technology, and it doesn't come remotely close to packing the energy that a tank of fuel can manage.

Furthermore, short of changing the battery, you can't load it up with more energy in a minute or two like you can with a fuel tank.

These two factors mean an electric car has an extremely limited appeal - namely as a second "shopping" car, or for those whose commute coincides with the car's range, whereby they'll need a proper car for all other journeys. They'll never actually be replacing a petrol / diseasel car and you have to remember that their environmental credentials relate only to the point of use of the vehicle. Something, somewhere's still emitting carbon to charge the batteries. None of these facts are likely to change massively in the near term. Leccy cars might be new, but the technologies within are very mature and changing slowly. 

Like diesel cars, I think they'll be subject to a massive government u-turn in a few years, if they ever manage sufficient penetration to appear on the radar at all. ::)
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Varche

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #21 on: 18 August 2014, 14:28:56 »

That is all very true but there has been a huge vested interest in continuing petrol/diesel vehicles and comparatively little money spent on what I would call new technology batteries.

Just a couple of ideas off top of my head.

Instead of charging you just "slide out" your discharged battery and take a charged up one from one of the stations(former petrol stations?). The batteries could belong to the company. Like orange domestic gas bottles in Spain

Charging? By solar device(would work well in sunny countries) or wind /water turbine with mains back up for the inevitable.

Don't forget that all cars will do of their journeys under state control and not the drivers foot within most of our lifetimes. Electric cars would be the platform for that with gas guzzlers being phased out (taxed to death). 
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chrisgixer

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #22 on: 18 August 2014, 14:30:42 »

Energy recovery is key IMO. But by nature, it has to be a lot more efficient than the energy that got it moving in the first place.
 As a Hybrid the Mclaren makes me laugh. Completely missed the point of saving energy, and instead uses as all its resources to go faster still. ;D ....hopefully they'll uncover some secrets on the way though. :-\
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05omegav6

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #23 on: 18 August 2014, 14:38:21 »

Tesla guarantee the batteries, motors and electronics for 8 years/unlimited mileage. The rest of the chassis consists of suspension and braking components, so consumables will be brake pads and shocks. Factor in free charging for life at their charging stations then you're well on the way to a viable long term product :y

The battery pack can be changed in as little as 90 seconds, should the need arise...
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05omegav6

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #24 on: 18 August 2014, 14:40:09 »

Revenge of the Electric car is well worth a watch :y

Currently on Netflix for those that have...
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Kevin Wood

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #25 on: 18 August 2014, 14:43:16 »

Don't forget that all cars will do of their journeys under state control and not the drivers foot within most of our lifetimes.

That'll be the day I give up driving and learn to fly something that burns petrol instead of my current "green"* alternative. ;)



* - Green except for the bit where it gets towed up by a plane with a 5.9 litre petrol engine. :-[
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Kevin Wood

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #26 on: 18 August 2014, 14:50:09 »

Exchanging batteries is about the only viable option I can see for "fuelling" electric cars. Battery technologies have been invested in recently, since the boom in mobile devices. The electric cars we have today are only as viable as they are thanks to investment in the Li-Po batteries and their derivatives we have in our phones, tablets, etc. I can't see a revolution coming any time soon, although we will no doubt see steady improvement. We need much better than that.

The problem you then have is that we need a standard battery that fits all cars. Currently electric car batteries are a very irregular shape to maximise their volume by utilising every bit of space under the car to which they belong, so very vehicle specific.

The next problem is funding the batteries. Somebody has to own them, and the distribution and charging network, and replace them when they die... I can see roadside battery replacements as being a very expensive fuel. :-\
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05omegav6

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #27 on: 18 August 2014, 14:59:59 »

Again Tesla have the march on this as they propose to use the same battery accross the range, (except the roadster which is no longer produced). Their approach being a flat battery pack which is floor mounted. More firward thinking than the Gm approach of mounting the battery in a standard car floor plan....
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Varche

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #28 on: 18 August 2014, 15:05:43 »

Exchanging batteries is about the only viable option I can see for "fuelling" electric cars. Battery technologies have been invested in recently, since the boom in mobile devices. The electric cars we have today are only as viable as they are thanks to investment in the Li-Po batteries and their derivatives we have in our phones, tablets, etc. I can't see a revolution coming any time soon, although we will no doubt see steady improvement. We need much better than that.

The problem you then have is that we need a standard battery that fits all cars. Currently electric car batteries are a very irregular shape to maximise their volume by utilising every bit of space under the car to which they belong, so very vehicle specific.

The next problem is funding the batteries. Somebody has to own them, and the distribution and charging network, and replace them when they die... I can see roadside battery replacements as being a very expensive fuel. :-\

Only when everyone has one! To start with they will be cheap. Think discount of diesel over petrol at outset. ;D ;D ;D
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aaronjb

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #29 on: 18 August 2014, 15:17:56 »

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Kevin Wood

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #30 on: 18 August 2014, 15:29:59 »

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aaronjb

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #31 on: 18 August 2014, 15:53:14 »

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Gaffers

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #32 on: 18 August 2014, 16:32:22 »

Exchanging batteries is about the only viable option I can see for "fuelling" electric cars. Battery technologies have been invested in recently, since the boom in mobile devices. The electric cars we have today are only as viable as they are thanks to investment in the Li-Po batteries and their derivatives we have in our phones, tablets, etc. I can't see a revolution coming any time soon, although we will no doubt see steady improvement. We need much better than that.

The problem you then have is that we need a standard battery that fits all cars. Currently electric car batteries are a very irregular shape to maximise their volume by utilising every bit of space under the car to which they belong, so very vehicle specific.

The next problem is funding the batteries. Somebody has to own them, and the distribution and charging network, and replace them when they die... I can see roadside battery replacements as being a very expensive fuel. :-\

Only when everyone has one! To start with they will be cheap. Think discount of diesel over petrol at outset. ;D ;D ;D

I'm not convinced about that philosophy.   Very few cars remain in motion continuously and thus if the range was adequate and the availability of charging stations were ample then you would have no problem.   Even better would be energy transfer in the road while you were driving.  We are a long way off the latter, but the range of the tesla and it's battery is a game changer.  Couple that with the ever expanding network of chargers and you have a feasible option.

The leaf needs another 60 miles of range to be a real option for the future.   Maybe the next version will be better, but as a town runabout it is fantastic.   I drove up to Sheffield a few weekends ago and I knew I would have to charge up twice.  The journey took 4.5 hours including the charging.  The first charge session coincided with lunch. So it was time I would have spent stationery regardless of the vehicle i was using.   The second charge was a toilet stop after which I did have to wait another 20 mins.  But because the charging points were free the entire round trip cost me about £2.50 in electricity.  Compare that with a car (between £60-100 in petrol) or the train (quoted at £100 ish) so each minute I waited saved me between £2.50 and £4.

I think that we are around the corner from milk floats becoming a viable option as an only car.  Remember, when motor cars were invented there was the same resistance and fears about range, longevity,  etc....

"What do you mean you can't just let it roam in the paddock and refuel!!??"

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05omegav6

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #33 on: 18 August 2014, 16:40:53 »

Not sure if you have seen Revenge of the Electric Car, MG, but Carlos Ghosn? was quite deliberate about the design and range of the Leaf platform.

If Tesla can deliver twice their current range (distance rather than products) at $30,000 then that will be the real game changer, especially if that battery can be retrofitted to the Model S and Model X...

Interesting times ahead :y
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Gaffers

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Re: If you must do 'lectrickery...
« Reply #34 on: 19 August 2014, 16:40:08 »

Not sure if you have seen Revenge of the Electric Car, MG, but Carlos Ghosn? was quite deliberate about the design and range of the Leaf platform.

If Tesla can deliver twice their current range (distance rather than products) at $30,000 then that will be the real game changer, especially if that battery can be retrofitted to the Model S and Model X...

Interesting times ahead :y

Indeed :y
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