Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega Electrical and Audio Help => Topic started by: GEDFORDM6 on 27 October 2019, 13:26:07

Title: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: GEDFORDM6 on 27 October 2019, 13:26:07
While driving my 3.0 elite 2000 model the battery warning light came on and I lost all my instruments.I assumed it was an alternator failure and changed it,fault still apparent.With ignition switched on I have no lights on dash.I then start engine and have no instruments and the batt warning light on.Car drives normal and shows 14.5 volts at battery when running.Any help grateful . Thanks
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 October 2019, 16:19:44
There's a starting/charging guide.

Work your way through it and report back with the results :y
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: TheBoy on 27 October 2019, 17:51:08
I'd be running through all the fuses...
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Kevin Wood on 01 November 2019, 20:07:02
I'd be running through all the fuses...

Yep, sounds like the charging is fine but the supply to the instrument panel has failed.

Try re-seating it on its connector if the fuses are all ok.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 22 December 2019, 23:30:21
I realise this is over a month old - but I had exactly the same last week on a trip to France.

Check fuse F15. On a facelift at least, if it blows, you lose speedo, rev counter, fuel gauge and engine temp on the dash. You also lose most trip computer functions.  The dash remains illuminated (if the lights are on) and the car runs normally.

My fuse F15 had blown. I replaced F15 with the horn fuse (F17) but that blew again within half an hour. I replaced it again, and it blew a few seconds after ignition on. I then spent an hour or so pouring over the Haynes manual, only to discover that F15 supplies lots of circuits including A/C, Climate control, Headlamp levelling, Rear suspension levelling, dash etc, etc. So with no diagnostic equipment in the car I had a 14 hour drive back through France and the UK yesterday without speedo so I won't be surprised if I receive a few love letters from the rozzers after XMAS. Thankfully I avoided running out of fuel (due to no fuel gauge).

On thinking about it this morning I realised that blowing a 20A fuse would require quite a heavy load - a pump, motor or compressor - Unlikely to be the dash or any lighting unless there was a dead short or wiring problem. The LC uses the same pump as the Omega for suspension levelling, and has a tendancy to blow fuses when they get old/tired. So I unplugged the compressor, replaced the fuse and tried again. So far the fuse is Ok.

So if anyone has the same symptoms (loss of all dash instruments) and F15 repeatedly blows, try unplugging the compressor. It's under the front bumper drivers side infront of the OSF wheel sh1t shield.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Broomies Mate on 22 December 2019, 23:45:36
I realise this is over a month old - but I had exactly the same last week on a trip to France.

Check fuse F15. On a facelift at least, if it blows, you lose speedo, rev counter, fuel gauge and engine temp on the dash. You also lose most trip computer functions.  The dash remains illuminated (if the lights are on) and the car runs normally.

My fuse F15 had blown. I replaced F15 with the horn fuse (F17) but that blew again within half an hour. I replaced it again, and it blew a few seconds after ignition on. I then spent an hour or so pouring over the Haynes manual, only to discover that F15 supplies lots of circuits including A/C, Climate control, Headlamp levelling, Rear suspension levelling, dash etc, etc. So with no diagnostic equipment in the car I had a 14 hour drive back through France and the UK yesterday without speedo so I won't be surprised if I receive a few love letters from the rozzers after XMAS. Thankfully I avoided running out of fuel (due to no fuel gauge).

On thinking about it this morning I realised that blowing a 20A fuse would require quite a heavy load - a pump, motor or compressor - Unlikely to be the dash or any lighting unless there was a dead short or wiring problem. The LC uses the same pump as the Omega for suspension levelling, and has a tendancy to blow fuses when they get old/tired. So I unplugged the compressor, replaced the fuse and tried again. So far the fuse is Ok.

So if anyone has the same symptoms (loss of all dash instruments) and F15 repeatedly blows, try unplugging the compressor. It's under the front bumper drivers side infront of the OSF wheel sh1t shield.

What about your heated seats?  Did you use them in France and havent used them since?  That's probably the most common issue with Fuse 15.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 23 December 2019, 00:25:57
I realise this is over a month old - but I had exactly the same last week on a trip to France.

Check fuse F15. On a facelift at least, if it blows, you lose speedo, rev counter, fuel gauge and engine temp on the dash. You also lose most trip computer functions.  The dash remains illuminated (if the lights are on) and the car runs normally.

My fuse F15 had blown. I replaced F15 with the horn fuse (F17) but that blew again within half an hour. I replaced it again, and it blew a few seconds after ignition on. I then spent an hour or so pouring over the Haynes manual, only to discover that F15 supplies lots of circuits including A/C, Climate control, Headlamp levelling, Rear suspension levelling, dash etc, etc. So with no diagnostic equipment in the car I had a 14 hour drive back through France and the UK yesterday without speedo so I won't be surprised if I receive a few love letters from the rozzers after XMAS. Thankfully I avoided running out of fuel (due to no fuel gauge).

On thinking about it this morning I realised that blowing a 20A fuse would require quite a heavy load - a pump, motor or compressor - Unlikely to be the dash or any lighting unless there was a dead short or wiring problem. The LC uses the same pump as the Omega for suspension levelling, and has a tendancy to blow fuses when they get old/tired. So I unplugged the compressor, replaced the fuse and tried again. So far the fuse is Ok.

So if anyone has the same symptoms (loss of all dash instruments) and F15 repeatedly blows, try unplugging the compressor. It's under the front bumper drivers side infront of the OSF wheel sh1t shield.

What about your heated seats?  Did you use them in France and havent used them since?  That's probably the most common issue with Fuse 15.

Heated seats was going to be my second guess if the fuse had still blown after unplugging the compressor.

I did check the seats were on '0' before replacing the fuse a second time whilst in France. I also turned the A/C and climate control to 'OFF'. The fuse still blew, so whilst I couldn't completely rule them out as the cause, it did reduce the likely-hood IMV.

And knowing what I do about how the rear suspension compressor is wired in the LC, I'd kind of convinced myself that VX/Opel would be stupid enough to wire it in such a way that it would take out a PITA system to diagnose on the Omega. In this case it looks like I was right.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 27 December 2019, 22:02:37
'dangle berries' - Its not (only?) the Compressor.

I've also unplugged the rear seat heating harness, and the fuse has blown twice since. If Haynes is to be believed front heated seats don't come of F15 - they use F14.

F15 seems to blow after about 40 minutes of driving. Next step is to unplug the front memory seat harness (assuming that doesn't upset the airbags), the cruise control, and the tow bar harness. After that I guess it's the front and rear car level control sensors and the A/C compressor.

Does anyone have access to an accurate 2001 RHD Omega Elite Saloon X30XE wiring diagram? I've seen snippets on the web so there must be one. I'm a bit nervous of relying on the Haynes manual because its only up to 1999 so presumably pre face lift.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 December 2019, 00:23:19
Owners handbook should also detail the fuse allocation.

I have a hard copy facelift diagram set that I may be prepared to part with...
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 December 2019, 00:49:44
Also worth dropping the fuse panel to check for a rogue wire behind it...

Only two screws and it pulls away ;)

All the permanent lives and switched lives are fed from two of the fuses next to the battery and expanded into the appropriate fuses under the dash. Corrosion or butchery in the wrong place will cause all sorts of chaos  :-\
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 December 2019, 14:15:38
Here's a definitive list of circuits to check:

S2 Light switch.
S7 Reversing lamp switch.
Instrument cluster.
MK engine cooling - relay box blower M28
MK engine cooling - radiator blower M4
MK engine cooling - cooling/aircon relays: coolant pump, coolant pump timer, radiator blower M11/M12/M54/M4/M28, aircon compressor, fan management.
Telephone.
Warning buzzer.
TID/MID.
Aircon.
Electronic Climate Control.
Car Level Control - control unit/sensor (same unit connected mechanically to the right hand trailing arm).
Glove box light.
Headlight levelling.
Interior lamp (all).
Sun roof.
Window lifters.
Exterior mirrors.
Seat heating.
Seat/mirror memory control relay (under driver seat).


Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 December 2019, 14:19:55
I would start with a stuck or sticking radiator fan. Note that they will possibly spin freely when cold, so up to temp disconnect the battery and check again... worth comparing resistance before and after... a slight rise once warm would be reasonable, but a significant increase on a particular fan will highlight your culprit. :y
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Andy H on 28 December 2019, 16:21:35
Here's a definitive list of circuits to check:

S2 Light switch.
S7 Reversing lamp switch.
Instrument cluster.
MK engine cooling - relay box blower M28
MK engine cooling - radiator blower M4
MK engine cooling - cooling/aircon relays: coolant pump, coolant pump timer, radiator blower M11/M12/M54/M4/M28, aircon compressor, fan management.
Telephone.
Warning buzzer.
TID/MID.
Aircon.
Electronic Climate Control.
Car Level Control - control unit/sensor (same unit connected mechanically to the right hand trailing arm).
Glove box light.
Headlight levelling.
Interior lamp (all).
Sun roof.
Window lifters.
Exterior mirrors.
Seat heating.
Seat/mirror memory control relay (under driver seat).
Does this fuse also power the auxiliary sockets? A recurring issue is small children dropping pennies into the rear aux socket. :-\
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 December 2019, 16:39:33
That list is off the official wiring diagram as to what that fuse feeds ;)

If it's not on the list, it's either not applicable ie Scandinavia or not powered by that fuse.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 28 December 2019, 18:51:44
Here's a definitive list of circuits to check:

S2 Light switch.
S7 Reversing lamp switch.
Instrument cluster.
MK engine cooling - relay box blower M28
MK engine cooling - radiator blower M4
MK engine cooling - cooling/aircon relays: coolant pump, coolant pump timer, radiator blower M11/M12/M54/M4/M28, aircon compressor, fan management.
Telephone.
Warning buzzer.
TID/MID.
Aircon.
Electronic Climate Control.
Car Level Control - control unit/sensor (same unit connected mechanically to the right hand trailing arm).
Glove box light.
Headlight levelling.
Interior lamp (all).
Sun roof.
Window lifters.
Exterior mirrors.
Seat heating.
Seat/mirror memory control relay (under driver seat).

Thanks. Haven't had a chance to do much testing today.

Mine is an Auto, and Haynes says the reversing lights are fed from elsewhere - no S7. So I think I can rule that out?

Interior lights are interesting. They still work even though F15 is blown. I assume E41 is the light cluster above the mirror? The rear half comes on when you open a front door, and the front bulbs come on with ignition on and you press one of the buttons. Both rear courtesy lights work correctly too - as do the door puddle lights.

Can confirm the exterior light switch (S2) doesn't illuminate, and nor does the glovebox light.

Rear seat heating is unplugged under the seats - haven't located the relays (K65/K66) yet to unplug them. Front seat heating isn't off F15 according to Haynes and the picture on the Fusebox lid?

Fans are possible - I did check them all last week using the Fan test socket and they all ran as expected with both Ign on and off. I couldn't get the fuse to blow.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 December 2019, 19:05:33
Didn't run them long enough to get hot ;)

The 40 mile thing is the key, seats only on for so long as they have built in timers.

If the fans, all three, don't dismiss the light switch ;)

That was from the '99 model year facelift diagrams. Haynes is OK for fundamental guide, but there are differences  ;)
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: STEMO on 28 December 2019, 21:21:09
I'm no mechanic/auto sparks, but it seems a bit idiotic to me to have all those things running through one fuse.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 December 2019, 21:37:31
Most of that lot are relay feeds. The other side of the relays are also fused ;)
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 29 December 2019, 00:19:31
I'm no mechanic/auto sparks, but it seems a bit idiotic to me to have all those things running through one fuse.

I agree. With probably 20-30 relays, plus fans, heaters and motors it's virtually impossible to diagnose what is wrong quickly/easily. I'm seriously considering wiring a separate feed to the instruments because that's the one system I really need to work - can't go driving about for long without functioning speedo and fuel gauge. The rest I can live without for now.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: STEMO on 29 December 2019, 14:13:44
I'm no mechanic/auto sparks, but it seems a bit idiotic to me to have all those things running through one fuse.

I agree. With probably 20-30 relays, plus fans, heaters and motors it's virtually impossible to diagnose what is wrong quickly/easily. I'm seriously considering wiring a separate feed to the instruments because that's the one system I really need to work - can't go driving about for long without functioning speedo and fuel gauge. The rest I can live without for now.
You could use the STEMO method of diagnosis. Remove fuse, replace with piece of metal bar, start engine and wait until something starts smoking. You have found your faulty part. 🙂
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 29 December 2019, 21:04:24
I'm no mechanic/auto sparks, but it seems a bit idiotic to me to have all those things running through one fuse.

I agree. With probably 20-30 relays, plus fans, heaters and motors it's virtually impossible to diagnose what is wrong quickly/easily. I'm seriously considering wiring a separate feed to the instruments because that's the one system I really need to work - can't go driving about for long without functioning speedo and fuel gauge. The rest I can live without for now.


You could use the STEMO method of diagnosis. Remove fuse, replace with piece of metal bar, start engine and wait until something starts smoking. You have found your faulty part. 🙂

I've already upped the fuse from 20A (yellow) to 25A (white) to 30A (green), and they all blow sooner or later. I get the feeling that going any higher is just going to test the amount of smoke left in the cables - probably at the worst possible time.

Unplugged the Cruise control today, and replaced the fuse again. So far so good, but I've only driven for 10 minutes or so. I don't really believe it's the CC but I never use it anyway and it's relatively easy to unplug.

Looked under the drivers seat for the seat memory widget. Trouble is to get to it you have to have the seat in the fully up position. If I then unplug the wiring the seat probably won't go down again. I'm 6'7 and need the seat in the down position to drive it so I'm a bit snookered.

However, given that the fuse blows after a few minutes, not immediately, I'm starting to think its got to be something that engages/turns on kind of psuedo randomly once the engine is warm. In order to draw >30A its got to be a heavy consumer. Fans, Motors, Pumps, Heaters etc. Can't see it being a relay coil. Window motors still work with F15 blown, so not them, and in any case the fuse blows when these are not being operated. Got the feeling it'll be either fans like DG suggests, or something to do with climate control.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 29 December 2019, 21:21:54
Didn't run them long enough to get hot ;)

The 40 mile thing is the key, seats only on for so long as they have built in timers.

If the fans, all three, don't dismiss the light switch ;)

That was from the '99 model year facelift diagrams. Haynes is OK for fundamental guide, but there are differences  ;)

The 40 mile thing...

The first time it blew was on leaving the petrol station at Chambery France on the way up to the alps. That was after a 9 hour drive from London via the Chunnel. We then continued for another 2 hours up the hill to Tignes praying it wasn't really the alternator.

During the 2 week stay in Tignes I replaced the fuse. Seemed Ok for the 10 minutes I ran the engine in the covered car park. It blew again after about 30 minutes on the drive down the hill on the way home (before Bourg).

I replaced the fuse again at Chambery petrol station, and it blew after only a couple of minutes.

Whilst in the Chunnel on the way home I got the Haynes manual out, turned the front seat heaters to '0' and replaced the fuse. Turned ignition on, and the fuse popped after perhaps 2 minutes. Engine wasn't running.

Replaced the fuse before a drive up to London (from Somerset) on Christmas day and got as far as Boscombe Down before it popped.

Replaced the fuse in London/Barnet before returning to Somerset on 27th and the fuse blew before reaching the M3.

So on the basis of abut 10 fuses, it blows quicker when the engine is hot. It takes 30-40 minutes to blow on a cold engine.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 29 December 2019, 21:23:05
Duplicate
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: STEMO on 29 December 2019, 21:37:12
Hmm.....cable looms heating and expanding, causing a short. Vibration or movement, causing a short. Water ingress, causing a short. If it's inside a loom somewhere, I can see you losing your mind. Sorry, Malcolm. 🤪
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 30 December 2019, 02:47:39
Recheck the fans hot and cold and also the relays.

My money is on the front fans ;)
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 30 December 2019, 23:09:45
Fuse is still intact, but I've only managed to do 2 short runs today so the engine never really got up to temp. However, tomorrow is another trip up to London, so plenty of opportunity for problems. >:(

I've taken DG's advice and investigated the fans. As far as I can tell from Haynes, the only fan that is actually powered by F15 is M28, via relay K48. M28 seems to be one of the two A/C fans at the front of the rad - dunno which one though. F15 does power the relay coils for other fans, but not the actual fan itself. So on the assumption the relays aren't short circuit on their coils I've pulled (what I think is) relay K48, and will run up to the smoke without it.

Sweep stake on how far I get? Mudford, Marston Magna, Queen Camel, Sparkford, Wincanton, A350, Stonehenge, Boscombe, Andover, A34, M3, Fleet, M25, M4, M40, M1, A1, Barnet  ;D 
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 31 December 2019, 01:54:25
Stop referring to Haynes.

The list I gave is the definitive list and that fuse feeds every relay in the cooling and aircon systems :-X

The relay you mention actually controls the blower to cool the engine bay relay box and has absolutely sweet fanny Adams to do with the radiator fans :-X

Unless I wasted a couple of hours of a day off trawling through the diagrams of course...
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 31 December 2019, 17:47:46
Here's a definitive list of circuits to check:

S2 Light switch.
S7 Reversing lamp switch.
Instrument cluster.
MK engine cooling - relay box blower M28
MK engine cooling - radiator blower M4
MK engine cooling - cooling/aircon relays: coolant pump, coolant pump timer, radiator blower M11/M12/M54/M4/M28, aircon compressor, fan management.
Telephone.
Warning buzzer.
TID/MID.
Aircon.
Electronic Climate Control.
Car Level Control - control unit/sensor (same unit connected mechanically to the right hand trailing arm).
Glove box light.
Headlight levelling.
Interior lamp (all).
Sun roof.
Window lifters.
Exterior mirrors.
Seat heating.
Seat/mirror memory control relay (under driver seat).
Listed as they appear and are described on the wiring diagram, NOT in order of importance. Although everything unplugged so far has either been unlikely or not on the above list ::)
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: BazaJT on 31 December 2019, 18:06:55
According to fan test[detailed in maintenance section] the fan relays are K26-all fans on low or aux on low depending on test being carried out,K28/K52 aux2 on high and K67 main on high.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 31 December 2019, 22:00:51
Fuse 15 directly feeds the following Cooling/Aircon relays:

1. K60(Relay - Compressor, Aircon) which controls K87(Relay - Blower, radiator) and controls M4(Motor - Blower, radiator).

2. K52(Relay - Blower, radiator) controls M11(Motor - Blower, radiator) and is fed from M4.

3. K28(Relay - Blower, radiator) controls M11.

4. K48(Relay - Blower, relay box) feeds M28(Motor - Blower, relay box) and is switched by K26(Relay - Blower, radiator).

5. K67(Relay - Blower, radiator) feeds M12(Motor- Blower, radiator).

6. K22(Relay - Pump, coolant) controls M54(Motor - Pump, coolant on the radiator).

K60 also feeds S128(Switch - Temperature, coolant on the radiator) which energises K52 and K28.

K26 feeds S88(Switch - Temperature, coolant on the radiator) which energises K48 and K67. It also provides power to M54.

S20(Switch - pressure on the aircon plumbing) has three parts: S20.1(Switch - Compressor, low pressure), S20.2(Switch - Compressor, high pressure), S20.3(Switch - Revolution, acceleration). S20.3 has a diode connection from both K28 and K48.

M4 and M11 are the front fans, M12 is the main fan.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 31 December 2019, 22:29:43
First things first. Reconnect EVERYTHING that you have randomly unplugged. Then replace F15 with the correct 20A fuse.

Then consider the following:

Looking a bit more closely at the way the Engine cooling and Aircon system is wired, if the fans check out OK, then you have four possibilities:

1. M54 has seized.
2. S128 fails at temperature.
3. S88 fails at temperature.
4. S2 has an internal fault.

1. can be tested along side 2. and 3.

Unplug M54 and connect it to 12v. If it runs then start at a. If it doesn't run, skip to b1.

a.Run the car up to temperature (aircon on, cabin fan on lowest speed, temp on LO). Allow to idle until main fan kicks in four times or the fuse blows.

b.Unplug M54 and repeat. if the fuse doesn't blow, b1.then swap M54 for the pump on inner wing below the header tank aka M81. Bleed the coolant  as follows: (aircon on, cabin fan on lowest speed, temp on HI) header cap off; run at idle until fans kick in; top up; repeat; refit cap; repeat.

Road test and report back.

2. and 3. are unlikely to be the culprits, but have to be included due to the warm up nature of the fault. That said, if the fans work as expected, then they are probably working just fine.

4. is the only other thing that might cause the issue, but I would start with testing M54 although you should replace the glove box bulb if it has blown.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 03 January 2020, 00:38:42
Sweepstake result. Queen Camel. About 6 miles/10 minutes.
Replaced the fuse again for the trip home. Turned the Climate control to ECO in the hope that stops the AC compressor being engaged. Got from Barnet around the M25 to the M40 - about 20 minutes.

Here's a definitive list of circuits to check:

S2 Light switch.
S7 Reversing lamp switch.
Instrument cluster.
MK engine cooling - relay box blower M28
MK engine cooling - radiator blower M4
MK engine cooling - cooling/aircon relays: coolant pump, coolant pump timer, radiator blower M11/M12/M54/M4/M28, aircon compressor, fan management.
Telephone.
Warning buzzer.
TID/MID.
Aircon.
Electronic Climate Control.
Car Level Control - control unit/sensor (same unit connected mechanically to the right hand trailing arm).
Glove box light.
Headlight levelling.
Interior lamp (all).
Sun roof.
Window lifters.
Exterior mirrors.
Seat heating.
Seat/mirror memory control relay (under driver seat).
Listed as they appear and are described on the wiring diagram, NOT in order of importance. Although everything unplugged so far has either been unlikely or not on the above list ::)

What have I unplugged that isn't on the list? You have the advantage on me because you seem to have a different circuit diagram. But..it still doesn't seem correct...With F15 blown....

Exterior mirrors still work (both sides, up, down, left, right)
Window lifters still work - all 4 windows go up and down correctly.
Drivers memory seat still works.
Interior lights all still work (except glovebox and S2 illumination).
Reversing lights still work. It's an Auto, so no S7 I think.

All the above would appear to contradict your list?

It can't be seized fans unless F15 directly feeds the fan motor. If F15 just feeds the relay coil for the fan then a seized fan won't blow F15 - it would blow whatever fuse is inline with the fan motor. Of course it could be a faulty (short circuit) fan relay coil.

Will do the rest of your checks tomorrow when I've got access to my Avo and other test gear.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 03 January 2020, 01:18:05
I know you don't like Haynes, but it's all I've got to go on....

1. M54 has seized.

Haynes shows M54 wired to Relay K22 pin 5, which is the switched terminal. The supply is pin 2, which is fed from F52 via relay K26. So how does a seized M54 blow F15? A fault with K22 coil could though.

2. S128 fails at temperature.

No. S128 failing short would just turn relays K52 and K28 on (which would turn on various things - none of which are powered by F15). To blow F15 would also require the coils of K52 and/or K28 to be short circuit.

3. S88 fails at temperature.

Again no. S88 failing would just turn on relays K26, K48 and K67.The loads these switch aren't connected to F15. Would require a short on the coils for K26, K48 and/or K67.

4. S2 has an internal fault.

Possible - but I doubt it. I'll pull the light switch tomorrow morning.

Again, the above relies on Haynes being correct.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 03 January 2020, 01:51:14
Which it isn't... Nothing against Haynes, their Omega wiring diagrams are based on the original Opel ones... for the pre and mid facelift, which isn't your car.

RE the mirrors, don’t forget that more than one fuse is used for several circuits. Also cruise control isn't on the list. The cam sensor and knock sensors are really easy to unplug as well, but you will notice their not on the list either...  ::)

Fuse 15 directly feeds the following Cooling/Aircon relays:

1. K60(Relay - Compressor, Aircon) which controls K87(Relay - Blower, radiator) and controls M4(Motor - Blower, radiator).

2. K52(Relay - Blower, radiator) controls M11(Motor - Blower, radiator) and is fed from M4.

3. K28(Relay - Blower, radiator) controls M11.

4. K48(Relay - Blower, relay box) feeds M28(Motor - Blower, relay box) and is switched by K26(Relay - Blower, radiator).

5. K67(Relay - Blower, radiator) feeds M12(Motor- Blower, radiator).

6. K22(Relay - Pump, coolant) controls M54(Motor - Pump, coolant on the radiator).

K60 also feeds S128(Switch - Temperature, coolant on the radiator) which energises K52 and K28.

K26 feeds S88(Switch - Temperature, coolant on the radiator) which energises K48 and K67. It also provides power to M54.

S20(Switch - pressure on the aircon plumbing) has three parts: S20.1(Switch - Compressor, low pressure), S20.2(Switch - Compressor, high pressure), S20.3(Switch - Revolution, acceleration). S20.3 has a diode connection from both K28 and K48.

M4 and M11 are the front fans, M12 is the main fan.
M54 has three sources of power as per above. If it starts to draw too much current then that could affect the relays and in turn draw a higher current through the fuse. You could replace all the relays and switches listed above, but the coolant transfer pump is an easy test. If it checks out along with the fans, then you're down to relays and loom.

I did say that the radiator temp switches were unlikely to be the culprits but included them as they provide additional fan switching.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 04 January 2020, 22:33:53
Which it isn't... Nothing against Haynes, their Omega wiring diagrams are based on the original Opel ones... for the pre and mid facelift, which isn't your car.

The problem is that some of the things on your list definatley aren't powered by F15 either. For instance the interior lights. So the diagrams you have aren't correct for my car either.

RE the mirrors, don’t forget that more than one fuse is used for several circuits.

Sorry but I just don't believe that. For F15 to blow something is taking >20A, and since I've also had a 30A fuse blow that something can also take >30A. If F15 blows and there were another path to power the windows/mirrors etc, then the fuse in that path would also blow. The only way that wouldn't be true is if the supplies were joined by diodes or similar. There is no evidence anywhere I can find for that.

Anyway, today's progress...

I unplugged M54. F15 blew after about 15 minutes.

I replaced F15, and pulled relay K22. The fuse blew after less that 5 minutes.

Pretty sure that rules out M54 and K22.

Whilst F15 is intact, both A/C fans run Ok with the Climate control on LO and the heater blower motor set to minimum blow. I haven't managed to get the engine hot enough to get the main engine fan to come on. However, I just don't believe any of the fan motors are powered by F15 so it won't be them anyway, and they all work as expected using the fan test connector.

If I turn the Climate to either ECO or OFF, then the A/C compressor disengages (the front bit stops spinning), but the fuse still blows sooner or later. So whilst not absolutely definitive it suggests it's not an A/C compressor or K60 fault.

I haven't managed to get the light switch out yet - tomorrow perhaps. However, IMV its very unlikely to be that.

Sunroof doesn't work. Dunno why - never use it but there is no sign of life with the switch in any position. It doesn't blow fuse F15 though when I operate the switch.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 05 January 2020, 01:00:14
The sunroof adjusts itself according to road speed (why it has a speed signal feed).

Also, if you're adamant that my list is wrong, check the fuse that feeds F15...

Be in the box above the battery. Either F5 or F6. Unable to confirm which as currently fixing an A319 for the orange product...
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 05 January 2020, 23:53:18
The sunroof adjusts itself according to road speed (why it has a speed signal feed).

Huh? Are you saying the sunroof doesn't/shouldn't work whilst stationary? Coz at the moment mine doesn't. I'm not bothered it - The only concern is to make sure the sunroof motor isn't faulty and blowing the fuse. The best way to make sure of that will be to unplug it.

Also, if you're adamant that my list is wrong, check the fuse that feeds F15...

Why? Replacing fuse F15 allows all the units (ok except possibly the sunroof) downstream of F15 to work again. If there is a another fuse upstream of F15 then it isn't blowing. The fault HAS to be downstream of F15. Which is precisely why it can't be any of the fan motors.

Be in the box above the battery. Either F5 or F6. Unable to confirm which as currently fixing an A319 for the orange product...

Not withstanding the above, Haynes doesn't show a fuse upstream of F15. FV5 and FV6 do protect other fuses/circuits but not F15. F15 is shown as being directly fed from the switched ignition feed line (15) on a 2.5mm black wire. Of course there could be a difference between Haynes and post facelift wiring, but since no-one is prepared to share a copy of the facelift wiring diagram with me....
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 06 January 2020, 02:35:46
Actually I offered you the whole thing, but as you didn't even acknowledge it, I can only presume that you didn't want it :-X
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 06 January 2020, 05:21:44
Without getting into a 'debate' about the 'correct' wiring diagram, can you kindly confirm two things?

Quote
W0L 0 V B F35 W 1 000001

W0L = World Manufactuere Identifer
0= Special Vehicle ID ( 0 = No Special)
V = Vehicle Platform (Not for Dealer Use)
B = Vehicle Designation ( Not for Dealer Use)
F35 = Denotes Vehicle Body Style ( F35 = 5 Door Est)
W = Production Year  ( W= 98, X= 99, Y=00, 1=01)
1 = Manufacturing Plant (1 = Ruesselsheim)
000001 = Chassis Number


1.What is the production year letter of your car?
2.What is the date on the rear centre seatbelt?
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 07 January 2020, 00:02:09
The mirror connection is irrelevant as your car won't have electrically folding mirrors, separate fuse controls the glass position.

If it's actually a 2001MY build, rather than a 2000, then the sunroof connection changes to an alarm ecu one, so there are further differences.

If you're 100% adamant that it's not a cooling system issue or the light switch, although by your own admission it doesn't work properly, then get the car on a lift and inspect the wiring around the following...

1.Level control ecu/sensor on the righthand trailing arm along with the associated loom under the sound deadening beneath the back seat, (look carefully here and you' ll find the relays for the rear seat heaters as well... There's even a guide for that  :-X)

2.Suspension compressor plug and wiring from pump to engine bay.

3.Xenon ecu (above the compressor) plug and wiring to the engine bay.

2 and 3 require headlight removal to properly inspect the loom as it passes through the inner wing.

And as frustrating as all this might be, a thank wouldn't go a miss  :-X
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Andy B on 07 January 2020, 08:56:58
The sunroof adjusts itself according to road speed (why it has a speed signal feed). ....

I can only say that the sunroof of my Omega remained open at 3 points and 12 months ban mph ....  ::) ::)
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 07 January 2020, 09:42:41
The sunroof adjusts itself according to road speed (why it has a speed signal feed). ....

I can only say that the sunroof of my Omega remained open at 3 points and 12 months ban mph ....  ::) ::)
That's as maybe, but yours wasn't the far superior Astra G ::) :P
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 07 January 2020, 10:24:42
The sunroof adjusts itself according to road speed (why it has a speed signal feed). ....

I can only say that the sunroof of my Omega remained open at 3 points and 12 months ban mph ....  ::) ::)
That's as maybe, but yours wasn't the far superior Astra G ::) :P
Besides, had you read the manual, comfort mode with it's noise reduction feature is just before fully open on the dial. Fully open won't adjust for road speed  ;)

Not that VX bothered to explain how it actually works in the manual  ::)
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Andy B on 07 January 2020, 10:47:36
The sunroof adjusts itself according to road speed (why it has a speed signal feed). ....

I can only say that the sunroof of my Omega remained open at 3 points and 12 months ban mph ....  ::) ::)
That's as maybe, but yours wasn't the far superior Astra G ::) :P
Besides, had you read the manual, comfort mode with it's noise reduction feature is just before fully open on the dial. Fully open won't adjust for road speed  ;)

Not that VX bothered to explain how it actually works in the manual  ::)

R T F M? ..... how very dare you!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 07 January 2020, 12:02:57
I know, right... ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 13 January 2020, 13:18:39
So .. Back to work after an extended XMAS break. Haven't had much time to do anything so will try and catch up on things.

I've bodged up an ammeter on a blown fuse, and plugged it into F15. At the moment it's reading about 400mA. Will see what happens on the drive home tonight. 

Actually I offered you the whole thing, but as you didn't even acknowledge it, I can only presume that you didn't want it :-X

Ok - Sorry. I misunderstood your answer to mean you did have (access to) it but couldn't release it. I have a few Lotus diagrams that fall into that category. If you can let me have/see a copy then I'd be very grateful. Just let me know what you need.

Without getting into a 'debate' about the 'correct' wiring diagram, can you kindly confirm two things?

1.What is the production year letter of your car?
2.What is the date on the rear centre seatbelt?

1) VIN is WOL0VBP69Y1...... . Log book says Variant FD11, Version 6A09KDECF5
2) Rear Seatbelt is 13 04 00. Drivers belt is 23 05 00, and Passengers is 10 05 00.

Registration date is 26-03-2001

So it looks like a mid model year 2000 build.

And as frustrating as all this might be, a thank wouldn't go a miss  :-X

Ok - sorry for that. The help is appreciated.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 13 January 2020, 20:07:17
The mirror connection is irrelevant as your car won't have electrically folding mirrors, separate fuse controls the glass position.

If it's actually a 2001MY build, rather than a 2000, then the sunroof connection changes to an alarm ecu one, so there are further differences.

If you're 100% adamant that it's not a cooling system issue or the light switch, although by your own admission it doesn't work properly, then get the car on a lift and inspect the wiring around the following...

1.Level control ecu/sensor on the righthand trailing arm along with the associated loom under the sound deadening beneath the back seat, (look carefully here and you' ll find the relays for the rear seat heaters as well... There's even a guide for that  :-X)

2.Suspension compressor plug and wiring from pump to engine bay.

3.Xenon ecu (above the compressor) plug and wiring to the engine bay.

2 and 3 require headlight removal to properly inspect the loom as it passes through the inner wing.

Being a 2000 build facelift the list I gave you still stands but bear in mind all of the above.

Also the ignition feed is fused, actually from F4 and is, from memory, 80A so will easily allow more than 20 amps through F15.

If you are satisfied that you have exhausted everything on the list, then the only remaining thing is that something has been tacked on to the OUTPUT side of F15 and has a significant fault or a short, probably to the column or dash structure.

Don’t know what 'extras' your car might have had fitted, but something as daft as a poorly installed or removed hands free kit would do it... Doesn't matter that it might only draw 3-5 amps, short it and the fuse will blow every single time.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 14 January 2020, 10:13:36
I decided not to drive home in the dark with the Ammeter in circuit, coz the ammeter isn't illuminated, and isn't fused, so if whatever it is were to go wrong I risked blowing F4 and I've no idea what else F4 powers so could end up stuck. So replaced F15 again and drove home. Fuse didn't blow.

Plugged the ammeter in for the drive to work this morning, Before cranking, the current is about 1.2A. After engine start this drops to about 400mA. Opening the glove box adds 1A ish (glove box light comes on). Releasing the hand brake and driving off, quiescent drops to 200mA. Doing things that cause dash lights to come on does cause an increase in current by a few 10's of mA, presumably the bulb currents.

Operating interior lights has NO effect. Operating Seats has no effect. Operating wing mirrors has no effect. Operating windows has no effect. Turing the Climate control Off or to ECO or changing the temperature has no effect. Changing the blower motor setting has no effect. Turning the radio (NCDC2013) on/off has no effect. All of these things still work with F15 removed, so I'm not surprised they don't affect the current readings.

What does affect the current is the accelerator. Hard acceleration causes the current to increase to over 1A. It's transient, so difficult to be precise. Lifting off also causes an increase in current to perhaps 800mA - again transient. This suggests to me that something on the Engine (EGR? SAI? or perhaps the charcoal canister?) and/or Auto gearbox is powered by F15. Also hard steering left or right increases the current too, to the ZF control box probably? However, so far I haven't seen anything exceed 2A total. Or perhaps the fuse that's blowing isn't F15 at all (in which case why do I lose dash instruments and glove box light when it blows)?

The only other newish symptom to report is that he alarm power sounder went off over the weekend. I'd left the fuse blown and been driving about on and off for a couple of days for short trips. When I replaced the fuse and started the car the power sounder went off. I had to turn the car off, get out, lock the doors and unlock again to shut it up. I might try a power-sounder-ectomy.

There is no 'phone AFAIK (would have ripped it out if I knew it was there) - radio is NCDC2013. Only addition I'm aware of is Traffic master (which squawks if you hit the button telling you to renew the subscription). Suspension compressor is unplugged. I'll unplug the relays under the rear seats next.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 14 January 2020, 10:28:50
The mirror connection from F15 is purely to powerfold the mirrors and doesn't apply to UK cars...

From your description of F4 current behaviour I would be looking at the ignition fed loom between the ignition switch and the fuse boxes as it seems that steering input and vehicle pitch have the greatest effect. You'll need to remove the column cowling, cluster, foam insert under the cluster and the fuse box cover/fuse and relay panels to check properly.
Whilst behind the fuse panels, you can check for spurious feeds to previously installed gubbins.

If you unplugged the rear seats, then you could have unplugged the relays as they're in the same place.

Also follow Kevin's starting/charging guide to rule out an alternator fault.

Assuming that you find nothing obvious in the above, then I have nowt more to offer without the car in front of me.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 14 January 2020, 11:02:18
The mirror connection from F15 is purely to powerfold the mirrors and doesn't apply to UK cars...

From your description of F4 current behaviour I would be looking at the ignition fed loom between the ignition switch and the fuse boxes as it seems that steering input and vehicle pitch have the greatest effect. You'll need to remove the column cowling, cluster, foam insert under the cluster and the fuse box cover/fuse and relay panels to check properly.
Whilst behind the fuse panels, you can check for spurious feeds to previously installed gubbins.

If you unplugged the rear seats, then you could have unplugged the relays as they're in the same place.

Also follow Kevin's starting/charging guide to rule out an alternator fault.

Assuming that you find nothing obvious in the above, then I have nowt more to offer without the car in front of me.

The Ammeter is replacing fuse F15, not F4. At least it's replacing what I *think* is F15.

(https://i.ibb.co/khtsBWs/0-C4-A4792-A.jpg)
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 14 January 2020, 11:35:54
The key to the fuse box is on the lid and in the manual...

But yes, that's F15.

Missing one of the large fuses as well by the look of it.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 14 January 2020, 12:29:23
Missing one of the large fuses as well by the look of it.

Top Right you mean? That's F35 according to the fuse box lid and various online sources. My Owners manual shows it as unused, and there don't appear to be any terminals fitted in the fuse box. The text says Window lifter 30A though.

(https://i.ibb.co/WgZ6Ktv/0-C4-A4793-A.jpg)

The key to the fuse box is on the lid and in the manual...

But yes, that's F15.

Thanks - though I was going mad. My drivers manual *does* list cruise control as being from F15 though.  :-\ And the manual does seem to corrospond more closely to what units fail when I pull F15 than your list does?
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 15 January 2020, 09:55:07
[Yesterday]
Pulled under-bonnet fuse FV4 (80A). Sure enough nothing works. A quick look at Haynes (yes I know) shows this as being the fused feed to the ignition switch, so not surprising really. Anyway, put FV4 back again and everything works as it should. 

Lifted the rear seats and removed the two seat heating relays - K65 and K66. Then left the car ticking over for an hour in the car park at work, occasionally jumping on all 4 corners to 'excite' the suspension levelling and headlight aim widgets. Fuse F15 remained intact.

Drove home about 6PM, and about 20 minuits into the journey F15 blows again. Too dark, pi55ing down with rain and blowing a hoolie so no chance to look further.

[This morning]
Replaced F15 again and pulled K19 (suspension pump relay) from the fuse box.  Drove to work. Currently the car is ticking over in the car park again, and F15 is still Ok after 20 minutes.

Next 2 things to try are to unplug the rear seat heating switches S96 and S97, and unplug the rear level sensor (K21). I don't really believe tht will cure it, but it will rule out all possible causes (except wiring loom shorts) from the rear seat heating and the suspension levelling.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: STEMO on 15 January 2020, 10:02:26
The other way of doing things is to unplug everything that's not absolutely essential and then plug them back in one at a time.
If the fuse still blows it's got to be the wiring.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 15 January 2020, 11:00:45
The other way of doing things is to unplug everything that's not absolutely essential and then plug them back in one at a time.
If the fuse still blows it's got to be the wiring.

Agreed, but one of the things that has to come out for that is the light switch, and I can't drive home in the dark without that. And the instrument/dash binnacle. That coupled with the fact I'm still not convinced that DG's list is correct for my car, it's difficult to be sure what is and isn't connected to F15.

Anyhow after about an hour of ticking over F15 blew again. At the time I was faffing with the drivers door window up/down switch assembly and generally thumping the door card. Could just have been a coincidence, but I've removed the switch assembly  (S37, or whatever replaces it in a facelift VX53239727/OP09-148-004/QR), replaced the fuse, and it's ticking over again in the car park. I'll go for a drive down to Yeovilton lunchtime to see if I can see the F35's on their way to Redflag OTT :-)
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: STEMO on 15 January 2020, 13:15:32
The other way of doing things is to unplug everything that's not absolutely essential and then plug them back in one at a time.
If the fuse still blows it's got to be the wiring.

Agreed, but one of the things that has to come out for that is the light switch, and I can't drive home in the dark without that. And the instrument/dash binnacle. That coupled with the fact I'm still not convinced that DG's list is correct for my car, it's difficult to be sure what is and isn't connected to F15.

Anyhow after about an hour of ticking over F15 blew again. At the time I was faffing with the drivers door window up/down switch assembly and generally thumping the door card. Could just have been a coincidence, but I've removed the switch assembly  (S37, or whatever replaces it in a facelift VX53239727/OP09-148-004/QR), replaced the fuse, and it's ticking over again in the car park. I'll go for a drive down to Yeovilton lunchtime to see if I can see the F35's on their way to Redflag OTT :-)
I did say everything that's not absolutely essential.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 15 January 2020, 14:55:21
F15 popped again on the way to Yeovilton - 5 minutes less than 5 miles. No F35's seen coz they've cancelled till tomorrow (when it'll no doubt be p1551ngs down with rain again.

Have now completely unplugged the rear level sensor (K21), and the rear seat heating switches (S96 and S97). Car ticking over in the car park.

Radio will probably be next, followed by the headlamp levelling control unit. After that it'll probably be dash out time  >:(
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 January 2020, 16:05:50
I have already suggested where to be looking at the loom.

Randomly unplugging things will tell you nothing.

You need to either test each item properly, or pay someone to do so.

If you're not prepared to do either, then you're probably better off buying a car that works... If only for your own sanity.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 15 January 2020, 16:43:16
I have already suggested where to be looking at the loom.

Randomly unplugging things will tell you nothing.

You need to either test each item properly, or pay someone to do so.

If you're not prepared to do either, then you're probably better off buying a car that works... If only for your own sanity.

I disagree. I accept it could be the loom. However, until/unless this weather lets up I can't get under the car to check the things you suggest.

And why would I want to test something that when removed doesn't cure the fault? However, if required I can bench test and fix most complex electrics/electronics. ::)

I am not randomly unplugging things. I am unplugging things that are known to be connected to F15. I accept that switches and relay coils are unlikely to be the cause but they're easy to access and rule out. The fault has to be downstream of F15. Apart from possibly the Cruise control (which the owners manual says is connected to F15) everything I have unplugged is connected to F15. And until I've found the fault there is no need to plug them back in - except the dash and light switch.

Something taking 20-30A is going to be big and mechanical  not small and electronic - a motor, fan, blower, compressor etc. Or a loom fault. The only such things that I haven't disconnected so far (AFAIK) are the Headlamp levelling, radio, sunroof, climate control.
 
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: biggriffin on 17 January 2020, 12:46:24
I'd, be checking the earth strap's, as they corrode,
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 17 January 2020, 19:55:16
I'd, be checking the earth strap's, as they corrode,

Do you mean the engine earth strap? How does that blow F15?

48 hour since I unplugged the rear level sensor (K21) (and rear heated seat switches) and so far no more fuses blown. If it survives tomorrow then weather permitting I'll be taking the sensor off on Sunday to bench test it next week.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: biggriffin on 18 January 2020, 10:14:32
I'd, be checking the earth strap's, as they corrode,

Do you mean the engine earth strap? How does that blow F15?

48 hour since I unplugged the rear level sensor (K21) (and rear heated seat switches) and so far no more fuses blown. If it survives tomorrow then weather permitting I'll be taking the sensor off on Sunday to bench test it next week.


 Reason I say, is on my last 3.0L it kept blowing the, big 30a one under bonnet, would be fine for couple of days,then stop,, took me weeks, turned out the earth strap's were corroded, and sparking, removed them, cleaned and refitted, no more problems,,.

Ps, I might have a rear suspension level sensors. :y
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: biggriffin on 18 January 2020, 13:55:34
^^^^^yup got one. Check for sales :y
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 04 February 2020, 10:45:32
Sitrep...

Fuses kept blowing at intervals from 10 minutes to 1 hour. Rear level control unplugged, radio out, rear seats unplugged, OSF headlamp levelling unplugged. So I replaced the fuse with the ammeter and went for a drive. Everything normal for about 30 minutes - then smoke from the AVO and it's leads. Current reading was over-range on the 20A range. Quickly pulled the leads out of the AVO and went home. 

Replaced the fuse, and it blew immedatley. Removed the battery and put the AVO in to measure resistance from the cold side of F15 to ground. Success - of sorts. I'd now got a permanent short to ground. Unplugged all the relays in the under-bonnet fusebox. Still short to ground. Then looked again at Haynes.

The loom appears to be in 3 sections - Engine bay, Dash and Body. The fuse is in the dash, so part of the dash loom. The connection to the body is via connector X1. The connection to the engine bay is via connector X5. I should be able to isolate the 3 sections of the loom by unplugging these connections. That would tell me which section of the loom, and therefore which units, might be faulty.

So easiest first X5, which AIUI is one of the 3 circular connections next to the battery. I couldn't decide which of the 3 though, so I unplugged them all. AVO short still present. So that rules out any wiring or units down stream of X5.

Next X1, which I think is the long thin connector behind the kick panel in the drivers foot-well (behind the bonnet release lever). Unplugged that - short still present.

So it appears the fault is in the dash somewhere. Radio already out, so not that. Took the instrument binnacle out. Fault still present. Glovebox out. Fault still present. Dropped the fusebox for a looksee - wiring all looks Ok and nothing there that looks like it shouldn't be. Pulled the facia off to get at the back of the climate control, and unplugged the two plugs - Short goes away. Hmmm.

So the current thinking is its either....

1) Faulty CC panel
2) Faulty CC servo or solenoid
3) Faulty (dash?) wiring that I've disturbed by unplugging all the stuff.

Personally, I'm suspecting the dash wiring, but no amount of pulling, pushing, jiggling or wiggling of the various wires and connectors could get the fault to re-occur.

So I've plugged the power lead back into the CC (so the blower still works for demisting), and left the second plug (to the CC servos/Solenoids) unplugged. Then put everything else back together, replaced the fuse and went for a drive.  So far everything is Ok, although I haven't done any trips longer than 20 minutes yet. Got to go to the Bristol ABS meeting tomorrow, and probably Harwell sometime later this week too.     

Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Andy B on 04 February 2020, 11:02:58
 :y
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: STEMO on 04 February 2020, 11:08:49
I do hope you find this fault, Malcolm, because you certainly deserve to.  :) If you're looking for a silver lining, just think of all the stuff you've learned about how an omega is put together  :y
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 04 February 2020, 13:59:27
The dash plugs into the body loom via a large blue and large black plug behind BOTH kick panels. If the drivers side is OK, try the passenger side.

There's also a loom that runs across the floor between the plugs.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 07 February 2020, 21:42:33
Drove to Harwell and back today. Fuse popped at the A303/A34 junction on the way up. Replaced it at Tot Hill Services (just after my Double Sausage McMuffin and Bacon Roll brekkie), but it popped again before the M4.

Spent all day in a pointless meeting at Harwell, and replaced the fuse at about 6:30pm before heading off home. Fuse popped again at the A34/A303 junction. It obviously doesn't like that junction! CBA to stop on the way home, plus the A303 is closed overnight at 8PM near Wincanton, so needed to get past that before it shut.

Once safely past Wincanton, started experimenting. When Fuse F15 pops, the alternator/charge/ignition lamp comes on. I'd noticed in the past that sometimes it is half bright, and sometimes full bright, and it can 'wink' between the two. Tonight's experiments revealed that it tends to be full bright when turning left, and half bright when turning right. It was quite repeatable. This is all while travelling at 70 (ish) just taking the bends on the A303. I was starting to suspect the headlamp levelling, since presumably the sensors will detect the slight ducking and diving of the front of the car during cornering.

Next check was on the dual carriageway sections. I tried lifting and wiggling and pushing and twisting the steering wheel/column - without actually turning the wheel. Sure enough I could make the alternator/charge/ignition lamp change between half and full bright. Hmmm. This is making me think it might be the steering wheel/column fouling/trapping/shorting some wires behind the dash. What I don't know is if it's the full bright or half bright alternator/charge/ignition lamp condition that occurs during the short. Suspect it's half bright. Anyway, assuming it's not normal behaviour it's got to be worth a look along/around the steering column area.

Second problem is I appear to have smoked my AVO doing last weekends tests. It doesn't seem to have liked >20A going through it. ::)
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Darius on 08 April 2020, 00:02:23
I hate intermittent faults - they drive anyone to insanity.

One thought.  You say the sun roof does not work.  This may be because it needs resetting after the battery was disconnected.  Reset instructions are in the manual or I could upload mine (2.2 DTI).  It could be the source of the fault but because it "doesn't work" you are not testing it.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Darius on 08 April 2020, 11:26:03
Another thought.  Can you insert extra fuses after F15 but as close as possible to where the wiring splits off for the circuit?  Or is access too difficult?

Say F15 powers 5 circuits.  Insert smaller fuses (10A?) as close as possible to F15 but in each of the 5 circuits. 

If only F15 blows it is in the wiring before any of the other fuses or you have missed a sixth circuit. 

If any of the other fuses blows it is that circuit. 

It could help to isolate the problem by eliminating "good" circuits.

A complication is the fuses are in series with the larger F15 but if you set F15 to 30A and the others to 10A it is likely the 10A will blow before F15 blows.

I have been trying to think of a way of using the return current to the battery (it must be over 20A) to identify the region in the bodywork it flows through but I think and voltage drop it would be too small to be useful.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 08 April 2020, 20:12:19
Another thought.  Can you insert extra fuses after F15 but as close as possible to where the wiring splits off for the circuit?  Or is access too difficult?

Say F15 powers 5 circuits.  Insert smaller fuses (10A?) as close as possible to F15 but in each of the 5 circuits. 

If only F15 blows it is in the wiring before any of the other fuses or you have missed a sixth circuit. 

If any of the other fuses blows it is that circuit. 

It could help to isolate the problem by eliminating "good" circuits.

A complication is the fuses are in series with the larger F15 but if you set F15 to 30A and the others to 10A it is likely the 10A will blow before F15 blows.

I have been trying to think of a way of using the return current to the battery (it must be over 20A) to identify the region in the bodywork it flows through but I think and voltage drop it would be too small to be useful.
)
F15 powers about 20 circuits. That's why it's been so tricky to debug. But yes, I have tried a version of your idea, and will try more once the gearbox is in (hopefully Friday)

So far I've isolated the dash/instrument binnacle, and powered it of it's own fuse. At least that means what when F15 blows I don't lose speedo, eng temp, rev counter and fuel gauge which was threatening to get me a speeding ticket! And F15 does still blow, so that rules out the instrument cluster as being the fault.

At the moment, the headlight levelling ECU, glove-box, sunroof and rear heated seats are unplugged - so not them.

I have previously unplugged the level control sensor plug (OSR trailling arm), radio, climate control panel, MID, underbonnet fusebox fan, Cruise Control, courtesy lights, drivers door window control switches, and light switch. F15 has continued to blow with these things disconnected.

Therefore  there is either something else taking it's power from F15 that I'm not aware of, or it's a short in the wiring. As far as I can tell, all the 'body' systems get their F15 power via connector X1-pin49. All of the 'engine bay' systems get their F15 power via connector X5-pin1.

The plan at the moment (once the gearbox and exhaust are back on) is to locate these connectors and try to isolate these pins. Ideally I'd like to pull the pins out of the connector, but I doubt I'll have the correct pin extraction tools. So if that fails, much as I dislike wiring bodges, I'll have to snip the wires close to the connectors and bodge-wire in fuses - probably 5A. Then if either of new 5 A fuse blows, I'll know the fault is downsteam of either the 'body fuse' or 'engine bay fuse'. If F15 still blows then it's pointing towards the wiring in the dash.

I don't think there is much point speculating on the cause now until I know which of the 3 fuses blows.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 08 April 2020, 20:18:16
Another thought.  Can you insert extra fuses after F15 but as close as possible to where the wiring splits off for the circuit?  Or is access too difficult?

Say F15 powers 5 circuits.  Insert smaller fuses (10A?) as close as possible to F15 but in each of the 5 circuits. 

If only F15 blows it is in the wiring before any of the other fuses or you have missed a sixth circuit. 

If any of the other fuses blows it is that circuit. 

It could help to isolate the problem by eliminating "good" circuits.

A complication is the fuses are in series with the larger F15 but if you set F15 to 30A and the others to 10A it is likely the 10A will blow before F15 blows.

I have been trying to think of a way of using the return current to the battery (it must be over 20A) to identify the region in the bodywork it flows through but I think and voltage drop it would be too small to be useful.
)
F15 powers about 20 circuits. That's why it's been so tricky to debug. But yes, I have tried a version of your idea, and will try more once the gearbox is in (hopefully Friday)

So far I've isolated the dash/instrument binnacle, and powered it of it's own fuse. At least that means what when F15 blows I don't lose speedo, eng temp, rev counter and fuel gauge which was threatening to get me a speeding ticket! And F15 does still blow, so that rules out the instrument cluster as being the fault.

At the moment, the headlight levelling ECU, glove-box, sunroof and rear heated seats are unplugged - so not them.

I have previously unplugged the level control sensor plug (OSR trailling arm), radio, climate control panel, MID, underbonnet fusebox fan, Cruise Control, courtesy lights, drivers door window control switches, and light switch. F15 has continued to blow with these things disconnected.


Therefore  there is either something else taking it's power from F15 that I'm not aware of, or it's a short in the wiring. As far as I can tell, all the 'body' systems get their F15 power via connector X1-pin49. All of the 'engine bay' systems get their F15 power via connector X5-pin1.

The plan at the moment (once the gearbox and exhaust are back on) is to locate these connectors and try to isolate these pins. Ideally I'd like to pull the pins out of the connector, but I doubt I'll have the correct pin extraction tools. So if that fails, much as I dislike wiring bodges, I'll have to snip the wires close to the connectors and bodge-wire in fuses - probably 5A. Then if either of new 5 A fuse blows, I'll know the fault is downsteam of either the 'body fuse' or 'engine bay fuse'. If F15 still blows then it's pointing towards the wiring in the dash.

I don't think there is much point speculating on the cause now until I know which of the 3 fuses blows.
Notwithstanding that any of the wiring between fuse 15 and the unplugged plugs could be faulty...  :y
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: STEMO on 08 April 2020, 20:21:52
Post up a pic of your omega when it looks like Al's trolley, in a thousand pieces  ;D
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 08 April 2020, 20:35:22
Notwithstanding that any of the wiring between fuse 15 and the unplugged plugs could be faulty...  :y

True, but if I can isolate the fault to 'body', 'dash' or 'engine bay' then at least that narrows down the sections of loom that need inspecting.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 08 April 2020, 20:54:04
Post up a pic of your omega when it looks like Al's trolley, in a thousand pieces  ;D
That's the Trolley replacement  ;D if the Vectra C give Terry nightmares, he probably shouldn't get an S Class :-X
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Darius on 10 April 2020, 13:29:31
Ideally I'd like to pull the pins out of the connector, but I doubt I'll have the correct pin extraction tools.
Could you bodge a pin extraction tool? 

I don't know Vauxhall plugs and sockets well but most pins just have a longitudinal bit of the pin sprung away from the pin to act as a catch when the pin is inserted into the plug body.  A bit of very thin metal (Coke can? bit of old feeler gauge?  bit of beryllium copper strip from an old relay?) pushed up from the connection side might get through and do enough to force the springs back to allow the pin to be extracted. 
 
Or very fine long nose tweezers coming down from the wire side?

They aren't expensive - see https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=electric+socket+pin+extraction+tool&_sacat=0 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=electric+socket+pin+extraction+tool&_sacat=0) where I searched on electric socket pin extraction tool and an 18 piece set is £2.65 but from China (where else) so takes a while.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAVITA-21-PCS-Terminal-Removal-Tool-Key-Extractor-Tool-Pin-Extraction-Tool-Kit/293478654426?hash=item4454b0e1da:g:O2AAAOSwlnVeSOHZ (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAVITA-21-PCS-Terminal-Removal-Tool-Key-Extractor-Tool-Pin-Extraction-Tool-Kit/293478654426?hash=item4454b0e1da:g:O2AAAOSwlnVeSOHZ) has a good diagram of what is needed and another photo shows the shape required for different pins.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 10 April 2020, 15:43:08
There's a whole selection of electrical contact tools available.

Vauxhall plugs aren't generally that complicated as long as you can move the plug around to get an understanding of how it's clipped together.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 14 April 2020, 16:42:34
Ideally I'd like to pull the pins out of the connector, but I doubt I'll have the correct pin extraction tools.
Could you bodge a pin extraction tool? 

I don't know Vauxhall plugs and sockets well but most pins just have a longitudinal bit of the pin sprung away from the pin to act as a catch when the pin is inserted into the plug body.  A bit of very thin metal (Coke can? bit of old feeler gauge?  bit of beryllium copper strip from an old relay?) pushed up from the connection side might get through and do enough to force the springs back to allow the pin to be extracted. 
 
Or very fine long nose tweezers coming down from the wire side?

They aren't expensive - see https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=electric+socket+pin+extraction+tool&_sacat=0 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=electric+socket+pin+extraction+tool&_sacat=0) where I searched on electric socket pin extraction tool and an 18 piece set is £2.65 but from China (where else) so takes a while.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAVITA-21-PCS-Terminal-Removal-Tool-Key-Extractor-Tool-Pin-Extraction-Tool-Kit/293478654426?hash=item4454b0e1da:g:O2AAAOSwlnVeSOHZ (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAVITA-21-PCS-Terminal-Removal-Tool-Key-Extractor-Tool-Pin-Extraction-Tool-Kit/293478654426?hash=item4454b0e1da:g:O2AAAOSwlnVeSOHZ) has a good diagram of what is needed and another photo shows the shape required for different pins.

Ordered the SAVITA-21-PCS item on Friday, and arrived this morning. I'm running out of excuses to look at things now :-)
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 15 April 2020, 20:15:27
So whilst faffing with the gearbox today I though I'd have a quick (hah!) look at the electrics. I had assumed this was connector X1

(https://i.ibb.co/PZFgFBY/IMG-4123a.jpg)

Not a brilliant picture, but anyway, I separated the plug and started con-checking to the cold side of fuse F15. None of the pins in this connector are connected to F15. Hmmm. Worse than that, the pin I was looking for was X1 pin 49 - and this connector doesn't have 49 pins.

So next step, the passenger side footwell.

(https://i.ibb.co/W5tqn83/IMG-7392-A.jpg)

The blue and green blocks are both quick release levered connectors. So disconnect the blue block...

(https://i.ibb.co/KySHykh/IMG-7396-A.jpg)

.. and con check to F15. One connection as far as I can tell - on Pin 34 which is a thin Yellow wire?

Next disconnected the green plug, and the power sounder alarm went off (yes I know!). So reconnected the plug and then disconnected the main battery (yes I know as well!)

Then unplugged the green connector again. No pictures this time so use your imagination. Con checked to F15, and again one connection on pin 77, which is a thick black wire.

Con checked to the fan test connector FTpin3 under the bonnet. With the green plug plugged in there is continuity between FTpin3 and F15. With it out, there isn't. So I'm pretty sure the green connector is X1 - although the pin-out is different to Haynes. Secondary evidence for this is the power sounder going off. Haynes shows a connection between the alarm ECU and the power sounder which runs via X1 pin 58.

No idea what the Blue connector is. It looks like most of the loom from the blue connector runs down the passenger side sill, so perhaps it's supplying the rear body systems, and the green plug is engine bay. 

Access to the yellow wire is fairly good, so using my new extractor tools I oiked it out. And that's where I'm at. Working blind with no circuit diagram. F15 didn't blow on the gearbox test drive, but early days.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 April 2020, 20:48:23
Haynes isn't the correct wiring diagram for your car, but we've already been through that.

I still think your problem is butchery behind the fuse box.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 17 April 2020, 21:31:52
Ok, so a mysterious piece of software has somehow found it's way onto my PC.  ::) It seems to contain the wiring diagrams for facelift omegas  :D I'm still experimenting with it but it seems fairly good.

Turns out, the blue plug in the photos above is connector X8, and pin 34 is indeed a feed from fuse F15, via the coil of relay K19. The wire is indeed yellow. The circuit then feeds the rear level control sensor.

The green plug is connector X1, and pin 77 is the F15 feed to a shed load of body units - LWR, CLC, WS, DWA, ASP, SH and MEM.

LWR is Headlamp levelling.
CLC is Car level Control
WS is Warning Sounder (Saudi Arabia - so probably not relavent)
DWA is the Alarm ECU
ASP is Parking Mirrors (don't think I've got these)
SH is Front Heated Seats & Rear Heated Seats
MEM is inside mirror, and seat memory.

There are loads of other units fed by F15, but not via X1pin77. 

So, I'm tempted to pull X1pin77 and see what happens next. I don't think any of the units powered via here are particularly critical.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 24 April 2020, 17:41:41
Have you pulled the front carpets out yet? Also the rearward wiring runs behind the kick panels. ALL the rear lighting, rear seats, self levelling, and iirc fuel pump/sender all run down the left hand side and only the aerial and rear audio gubbins runs after the right hand B pillar.

Alot of the loom from those plugs runs across the floor. Also, one plug on either A pillar connects the dash loom to the body loom.

Some wiring could well come through the bulkhead to X1, dissappear into the loom and feed back through the other plug into the dash loom.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 24 April 2020, 18:18:00
Once I'd got access to the correct circuit diagrams I checked all the things I'd previously disconnected against the diagrams to see if there was anything I'd missed. I didn't want to disturb the wiring if I didn't have to. The obvious difference on F15 was the heated front seats. 

Haynes shows these being powered of fuse F14 via the dash switches, which is presumably correct for PFL (and MFL?). However, these new circuit diagrams for FL show them being powered of fuse F15, via connectors X36 and X37. So I've unplugged both connectors X36.3 and X37.3 (lines 3200-3749, physically located by the seat bases), and plugged everything else back in. The drivers seat being faulty might explain the variation in dash ignition bulb brightness when steering or wiggling the wheel. Every action has an equal and opposite, so a force on the steering wheel exerts and equal and opposite force on the drivers seat via my backside.

So far, so good, although I haven't been able to do any long trips yet.
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: Tick Tock on 24 April 2020, 18:45:20
So whilst faffing with the gearbox today I though I'd have a quick (hah!) look at the electrics. I had assumed this was connector X1
Next disconnected the green plug, and the power sounder alarm went off (yes I know!). So reconnected the plug and then disconnected the main battery (yes I know as well!)

I keep popping into this thread to see how you're getting on, and it would appear you are no further forward than you were in October last year. There's nothing worse than an intermittent fault, so you have my sympathies.

It could be complete dangle berries, but we're all aware of the power sounder issue on these cars. I didn't waste much time in removing and disposing of mine on 3 different cars, but it would appear from your post that there is still one fitted. Would it be a silly question to ask if that's eliminated, then you have a blank canvas on which to fault find?  Just a thought, but please don't shoot me down in flames.  :-\
Title: Re: Red battery warning light and no instruments
Post by: LC0112G on 24 April 2020, 23:09:39
So whilst faffing with the gearbox today I though I'd have a quick (hah!) look at the electrics. I had assumed this was connector X1
Next disconnected the green plug, and the power sounder alarm went off (yes I know!). So reconnected the plug and then disconnected the main battery (yes I know as well!)

I keep popping into this thread to see how you're getting on, and it would appear you are no further forward than you were in October last year. There's nothing worse than an intermittent fault, so you have my sympathies.

My fault didn't start till December, and I'm cautiously optimistic I have now found it. If you look through the thread you'll see the initial suspect was the self levelling, and when that was ruled out next bet was the heated seats. I then got mislead because I didn't have access to the correct circuit diagrams into thinking the front seats were on a different fuse. If I'd have know back then what I know now....

It's still possible it's something else, but I won't find out for sure until Boris/Macron tells us we can drive 1000km in a day.


It could be complete dangle berries, but we're all aware of the power sounder issue on these cars. I didn't waste much time in removing and disposing of mine on 3 different cars, but it would appear from your post that there is still one fitted. Would it be a silly question to ask if that's eliminated, then you have a blank canvas on which to fault find?  Just a thought, but please don't shoot me down in flames.  :-\

Power sounder power feeds come from fuses F14 and FV5 on both pre and post facelift. It's only got 4 terminal pins, and F14, FV5 and ground accounts for 3 of them. The 4th one goes to the Alarm ECU, so it would require a fault in the Alarm ECU (which is connected to F15) via the power sounder. Never say never, but very unlikely a Power sounder fault is capable of blowing F15. I've more chance of winning the lottery - and I don't even play it.