Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Varche on 10 November 2017, 18:08:29
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I’ll help with an offer of 780 billion euros. I just plucked a figure out of thin air.
Why havent we seen a detailed bill so we can all on both sides of the channel see if it is fair. Mind you does the EU provide audited accounts?
Sorry but I cant see any other outcome than no deal. Bunch of clowns .
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I don’t care. Barnsley is getting a vote on devolution next month, so you can all eff off......bah gum. ;D
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Shouldn't take to weeks to say "your getting far call, by bye". ;D
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Seems to me the "negotiations" so far have consisted of the EU telling us what we'll do or else without trying to find a compromise acceptable to all,so I'm surprised they haven't put their own figure on it and tell us we have to pay it or else. TM is after putting it into law that we'll leave at a set time and date.It might help if all our politicians got behind brexit and worked towards getting the best deal we can get for the country instead of constantly trying to score points off each other,but of course that'll never happen.
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It gets more and more farcical by the day. As I've said from day one the EU commission doesn't want a deal, so it is irrelevant trying to negotiate in good faith. >:( >:( >:(
I have been doing some research and it has made me realise how weak the EU's position is. If they don't start negotiating seriously in December with no money on the table, where no country and I mean no country, on this planet, pays to trade with another one, I can see 2018 getting very interesting. ::) ::) ::)
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It gets more and more farcical by the day. As I've said from day one the EU commission doesn't want a deal, so it is irrelevant trying to negotiate in good faith. >:( >:( >:(
I have been doing some research and it has made me realise how weak the EU's position is. If they don't start negotiating seriously in December with no money on the table, where no country and I mean no country, on this planet, pays to trade with another one, I can see 2018 getting very interesting. ::) ::) ::)
Yep. Just a big game of "Chicken". I just don't understand how it's all got so "Oh dear, what if . . . . " Both sides would be crap at playing poker
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Here is a suggestion for Barnier.
You can buy Northern Ireland to preserve your borders. Price? We could start at 4 trillion Euros.
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The people of Northern Ireland might have something to say about being put up for sale, even at that price. ::) ;D
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It would give the shiny new EU army something to do! ::) ;D
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They wouldn't stand a chance. ;) ;D
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Sorry but I cant see any other outcome than no deal.
Which was always going to be the case, or we'd be taken to the cleaners. On top of that, the EU cannot allow a deal.
Some of the Farage brigade refuse to accept we are an insignificant rock, and we need Europe far more than we need them... ...and that's the whole point of trading groups, whether private businesses or countries - it allows minnows the same access and deals as the big boys (and deep down, we all know we are insignificant).
So, due to unfortunate timing, we're all Donald Ducked.
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If the EU was still a trading group (common market) we wouldn't be leaving.
How can you label the worlds 5th largest economy insignificant ?
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Sorry but I cant see any other outcome than no deal.
Which was always going to be the case, or we'd be taken to the cleaners. On top of that, the EU cannot allow a deal.
Some of the Farage brigade refuse to accept we are an insignificant rock, and we need Europe far more than we need them... ...and that's the whole point of trading groups, whether private businesses or countries - it allows minnows the same access and deals as the big boys (and deep down, we all know we are insignificant).
So, due to unfortunate timing, we're all Donald Ducked.
Which is why 40 odd years after joining the club, we still have no preferential trading arrangements with our largest single overseas trading partner, our oldest ally and the worlds largest economy? The USA? ??? ;D
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Sorry but I cant see any other outcome than no deal.
Which was always going to be the case, or we'd be taken to the cleaners. On top of that, the EU cannot allow a deal.
Some of the Farage brigade refuse to accept we are an insignificant rock, and we need Europe far more than we need them... ...and that's the whole point of trading groups, whether private businesses or countries - it allows minnows the same access and deals as the big boys (and deep down, we all know we are insignificant).
So, due to unfortunate timing, we're all Donald Ducked.
Which is why 40 odd years after joining the club, we still have no preferential trading arrangements with our largest single overseas trading partner, our oldest ally and the worlds largest economy? The USA? ??? ;D
Not quite: Portugal 1386, http://www.historyextra.com/qa/why-portugal-known-as-britain-oldest-ally
:y :y :y
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Sorry but I cant see any other outcome than no deal.
Which was always going to be the case, or we'd be taken to the cleaners. On top of that, the EU cannot allow a deal.
Some of the Farage brigade refuse to accept we are an insignificant rock, and we need Europe far more than we need them... ...and that's the whole point of trading groups, whether private businesses or countries - it allows minnows the same access and deals as the big boys (and deep down, we all know we are insignificant).
So, due to unfortunate timing, we're all Donald Ducked.
Which is why 40 odd years after joining the club, we still have no preferential trading arrangements with our largest single overseas trading partner, one of our oldest allies and the worlds largest economy? The USA? ??? ;D
Not quite: Portugal 1386, http://www.historyextra.com/qa/why-portugal-known-as-britain-oldest-ally
:y :y :y
Fair enough Shack and I've amended that for you. :y
My point still stands though! :)
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Problem is that any "deal" with the US will be a total shafting. Hormones and carcinogenic chemicals in our food, unfettered access to our NHS for the drug companies etc etc.
The problem with "taking back control" is that we are handing that control to May et al who are firmly out for themselves, and the fact that my newly imported American steak is going to shrink my balls and give me a cracking pair of knockers is of no concern to them. ;D
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Problem is that any "deal" with the US will be a total shafting. Hormones and carcinogenic chemicals in our food, unfettered access to our NHS for the drug companies etc etc.
The problem with "taking back control" is that we are handing that control to May et al who are firmly out for themselves, and the fact that my newly imported American steak is going to shrink my balls and give me a cracking pair of knockers is of no concern to them. ;D
Yay Jimmy's got his tin foil helmet out again! ;D :y
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Sorry but I cant see any other outcome than no deal.
Which was always going to be the case, or we'd be taken to the cleaners. On top of that, the EU cannot allow a deal.
Some of the Farage brigade refuse to accept we are an insignificant rock, and we need Europe far more than we need them... ...and that's the whole point of trading groups, whether private businesses or countries - it allows minnows the same access and deals as the big boys (and deep down, we all know we are insignificant).
So, due to unfortunate timing, we're all Donald Ducked.
...............and once again my opening to quote Lord Tennyson:
"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred."
That is where we are heading!! >:(
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Balderdash ! If anything the undemocratic, protectionist, wannabe empire, aka the EU is heading there.
Even the biggest, strongest, most dominant empires collapse in the end. As a historian that should be a given for you.
In 15 -20 years it will be gone, leaving a trail of chaos and poverty across Europe, and the accepted wisdom will be that leaving when we did was the best decision this country has taken for a very long time.
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Problem is that any "deal" with the US will be a total shafting. Hormones and carcinogenic chemicals in our food, unfettered access to our NHS for the drug companies etc etc.
The problem with "taking back control" is that we are handing that control to May et al who are firmly out for themselves, and the fact that my newly imported American steak is going to shrink my balls and give me a cracking pair of knockers is of no concern to them. ;D
I share your concerns. The chlorine washed chicken(to extend its dubious life) is well documented. Surely trade deals can be struck that exclude such items? Are we saying now that no one in Uk buys from the Us or vice versa? No. So it just needs proper negotiation.
As for the Conservatives being out for themselves and their cronies, that is true whether we are in the EU or not. There is much documented evidence of Eu cronies lining their nests on the back of (our) EU money. So nothing new either side of the channel. I am not advocating Labour but the answer is via the ballot box. We reap what we sew. Clock is ticking on Theresa May. 7 months now.
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Balderdash ! If anything the undemocratic, protectionist, wannabe empire, aka the EU is heading there.
Even the biggest, strongest, most dominant empires collapse in the end. As a historian that should be a given for you.
In 15 -20 years it will be gone, leaving a trail of chaos and poverty across Europe, and the accepted wisdom will be that leaving when we did was the best decision this country has taken for a very long time.
The EU is not a traditional "empire" and history has taught us that separate country nationalism is what we should fear. Once a country breaks away from a group, generating it's feeling of "greatness" over all others, the risks of eventual conflict increase significantly. With North Korea ignoring it's partner, China, and the United States of America as the World power feeling obliged to stop the "evil empire" outside of any form of "club" (forget the toothless UN) they feel no compunction to resort to proper diplomacy, just as Hitler treated that as a joke during the Munich crisis.
We in the UK should all do what we can to unite the world not blow it apart. The EU is a very useful, but, yes, requiring attention, pact that will stop us going to war with countries within it knowing that nothing is to be gained by that, understanding history as they do, and having a ethnically mixed population. Within it we could change the policies, but going outside as we are we cannot. As a single nation outside of the big pacts, we will also not be in a position to diplomatically stop conflict unitedly with the rest of Europe. We would, as always it seems, be at the beck and call of the USA to use our military for their intentions, or of course face pressure / blackmail towards the prospect of losing any "trade agreements" we have with them. As TB stated, Europe can survive without us, but we need Europe, and all we are doing currently is showing the World what a pathetic "little Englander" we are, that cannot even negotiate with the EU as any form of major International player. We are, and always have been since 1956, a bit player on our own, but a force for good alongside the USA, then the EU. With a declining USA, and us leaving the EU, we are heading for the final decline.
But, of course I am flying in the face of the apparent majority who voted, without fully comprehending the true facts thanks to Cameron, to leave the EU. So be it. But I will continue to echo the principles of the Charge of the Light Brigade as a simple correlation of the situation we are now in. If I am wrong, then fine I will say so when Great Britain is again flying high with massive exports, full, non-zero contract, employment and little in the way of national or personal debt. But at the moment, bearing in mind history, I just cannot visualise it. :( :(
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Isn,t it, when all is said and done, just a poem. Albeit a very good one. To use that as a example of the EU negotiations is a tad simplistic IMHO.
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Balderdash ! If anything the undemocratic, protectionist, wannabe empire, aka the EU is heading there.
Even the biggest, strongest, most dominant empires collapse in the end. As a historian that should be a given for you.
In 15 -20 years it will be gone, leaving a trail of chaos and poverty across Europe, and the accepted wisdom will be that leaving when we did was the best decision this country has taken for a very long time.
The EU is not a traditional "empire" and history has taught us that separate country nationalism is what we should fear.
We in the UK should all do what we can to unite the world not blow it apart. The EU is a very useful, but, yes, requiring attention, pact that will stop us going to war with countries within it knowing that nothing is to be gained by that, understanding history as they do, and having a ethnically mixed population. Within it we could change the policies, but going outside as we are we cannot. As a single nation outside of the big pacts, we will also not be in a position to diplomatically stop conflict unitedly with the rest of Europe. We would, as always it seems, be at the beck and call of the USA to use our military for their intentions, or of course face pressure / blackmail towards the prospect of losing any "trade agreements" we have with them. As TB stated, Europe can survive without us, but we need Europe, and all we are doing currently is showing the World what a pathetic "little Englander" we are, that cannot even negotiate with the EU as any form of major International player. We are, and always have been since 1956, a bit player on our own, but a force for good alongside the USA, then the EU. With a declining USA, and us leaving the EU, we are heading for the final decline.
But, of course I am flying in the face of the apparent majority who voted, without fully comprehending the true facts thanks to Cameron, to leave the EU. So be it. But I will continue to echo the principles of the Charge of the Light Brigade as a simple correlation of the situation we are now in. If I am wrong, then fine I will say so when Great Britain is again flying high with massive exports, full, non-zero contract, employment and little in the way of national or personal debt. But at the moment, bearing in mind history, I just cannot visualise it. :( :(
But that has little or nothing to do with being in or out of the EU. That is just a myth.
Massive exports. To do that we need forward thinking governments encouraging appropriate industries where we can be competitive. Nothing to do with being in the EU.
Full, non zero hour contracts. Again , nothing to do with being in the EU. Zero hour contracts or to phrase it more politically correctly " flexible workforce" is again a political construct. You will note that France is up in arms about Macron introducing the same so they are competitive
Full employment. Cannot ever be achieved in a modern day country without resorting to communist style. I think you will find Britain is already pretty well placed compared with many EU countries in terms of high employment rates. have you for example seen Spanish unemployment rates?
national debt. Ah this is down to government too.
Personal debt. Blame that one on the marketing men and also on governments servicing stupidly high debts which are nothing more than Bubbles.
We in the UK should all do what we can to unite the world not blow it apart Fine words but did you denounce our actions in the Falklands war, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Kuwait to name but a few? Like it or not a lot of Britains wealth comes from our military might as showcased in various wars. Taking the argument that we are better off in a combine ( my word) like the Eu in order to avoid having any more wars than countries having and retaining their national ID's , where would it end? One entity and a world government. That would be a fine mess if the "government wasn't benevolent.
Some old arguments that have been well trodden. Change the less than perfect Eu "from within".Good luck with that. Even a blind man can see that it isn't for changing. Rather it is like a crippled sinking ship on full steam with an apprentice crew desperately yanking periodically at the tiller hoping to avoid the next iceberg.
Fifth or sixth largest economy in the world. A pathetic little Englander.!? I hate that term on so many levels. Emigrate if you don't like the place - I hear Myanmar is a nice spot with a burgeoning economy. As far as the negotiations are concerned, I am fairly sure I will be proved right that neither party wanted a deal along conventional lines but are just stringing out the bean feast of hotels and meals whilst shuffling papers. As such there will be no deal. The good news is that with imagination and energy from none pathetic little Englanders Britain will be just fine after a few years.
without fully comprehending the true facts Whose fault is that? the government of the day and the EU for that matter. they could have changed in recognition of growing concerns within its member countries but DID NOT. What are the true facts? No one actually knows. Not even well paid economists. Why? Because no one knows what deal we will end up with or even how it will pan out with a no deal. The bottom line was vote remain and stick with the safe option because it isn't really bad but could improve with luck OR get out and make our own way. I have heard nothing to convince me otherwise from leaving and I have much more to lose than most Brits as an expat.
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Problem is that any "deal" with the US will be a total shafting. Hormones and carcinogenic chemicals in our food, unfettered access to our NHS for the drug companies etc etc.
The problem with "taking back control" is that we are handing that control to May et al who are firmly out for themselves, and the fact that my newly imported American steak is going to shrink my balls and give me a cracking pair of knockers is of no concern to them. ;D
I share your concerns. The chlorine washed chicken(to extend its dubious life) is well documented. Surely trade deals can be struck that exclude such items? Are we saying now that no one in Uk buys from the Us or vice versa? No. So it just needs proper negotiation.
As for the Conservatives being out for themselves and their cronies, that is true whether we are in the EU or not. There is much documented evidence of Eu cronies lining their nests on the back of (our) EU money. So nothing new either side of the channel. I am not advocating Labour but the answer is via the ballot box. We reap what we sew. Clock is ticking on Theresa May. 7 months now.
I don't think that there is any appetite in the country to drop standards to accommodate the Americans and I think the Tories know this and also know that they will be punished at the ballot box if they do. ;)
As said earlier the USA is our largest single overseas trading partner accounting for 20% of our exports , yet we seem to manage to do this without a trade deal. So when they do start negotiations it is against that backdrop. :) Of course the hard nosed Yanks will try to get the Brits to drop standards in all sorts of areas, but given that the US firms already doing business with us are used to complying with UK/EU standards and given the politics attached, I can't see it happening to be honest. ;)
By the way, I've eaten steak in the US, I didn't grow tits and my balls are still big! ;D Having said that though I don't like the sound of my beef being full of hormones, nor chlorinated chicken although I've certainly eaten it. ::) I drink chlorinated water, I've swum in chlorinated pools and I'm still here! :y
At the end of the day why not make sure everything is well labelled and let the consumer decide? ???
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Remoaners call all leavers too stupid to grasp the facts and xenophobics, where from day one they have had NO positive arguments for staying in the EU as their are none. The best they could manage was a total made up fabric of lies nicknamed Project Fear, which was called on the 23rd June 2016 and their nest of lies then didn't deliver on the collapse of our economy. In fact, the reverse has happened with our economy booming and unemployment at its lowest level for over a generation. This shows that anything Remoaners say should now be treated for the propaganda that it is. :y :y :y
The overriding reason for leaving is that the EU is a dictatorship, steadily amassing power and becoming more ruthless as they do so. They have already deposed the Greek government and removed the Italian president when they haven't liked what these democratically elected officials were doing. Good luck to any country belonging to the dictatorship if they step out of line once they have an army. >:( >:( >:(
This dictatorship is already having profound effects on mainland European wealth and levels of unemployment. The almost permanent recession in Southern Europe where all economic decisions are made for the German economy's benefit. If it was a democracy and the EU commission was elected then the Southern European countries would force changes through the ballot box, but as a dictatorship, they can't. :( :( :(
With the UK booming after our exit from the EU other countries will be lining up to do the same and reasserting their democracies and courts as the highest level of administration with decisions and laws being made that are most suited to that countries needs. :y :y :y
The UK has a long history of being ahead of the pack and the wise voters did the same on the 23rd June 2016 which will go down in history as our freedom day, when we escaped the ever-growing tyranny of the EU dictatorship. :y :y :y
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The Eurocrats were extremely stupid in not recognising that their Gadarene rush towards a Federal Europe was just too rapid, our voters didn't like it, and many other members don't like it. Had they been more sensible, and aimed at federation in, say, 50 years time or so, they might have got away with it, but unfortunately the hubris of the unelected leaders of the EU allowed them to get lost in their own little power bubble, just like many dictators in history. They are now trying to make it as difficult as possible for us to leave in order to encourager les autres.Personally, I think it is a great shame to have come to this pass, but the situation has a certain inevitability about it, and the sooner our politicians start pulling together to get the best deal, or none, and get on with securing our future, the better. :(
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The proof, if any was needed, regarding all the infighting in the political parties, is that they are putting their interests above what should be the most important factor. The good of Britain, not the undemocratic EU.
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How can you label the worlds 5th largest economy insignificant ?
And one of the worse performing ones. So, yes, we are insignificant. We had some significance when we were able to trade freely with out biggest trading partner, but we don't want to do that.
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We do want to trade freely with them and we will, because they want, and need to trade freely with us.
In the longer term, business will decide this stuff not self serving brainless politicians.
Btw, imo our economy is performing better than most other European countries, despite the prophecies of armmagedon if we dared to vote the wrong way.
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Quoting Varche:
But that has little or nothing to do with being in or out of the EU. That is just a myth.
We in the UK should all do what we can to unite the world not blow it apart Fine words but did you denounce our actions in the Falklands war, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Kuwait to name but a few? Like it or not a lot of Britains wealth comes from our military might as showcased in various wars.
Fifth or sixth largest economy in the world. A pathetic little Englander.!? I hate that term on so many levels. Emigrate if you don't like the place
without fully comprehending the true facts Whose fault is that? the government of the day and the EU for that matter. they could have changed in recognition of growing concerns within its member countries but DID NOT. What are the true facts? No one actually knows. Not even well paid economists. Why? Because no one knows what deal we will end up with or even how it will pan out with a no deal. The bottom line was vote remain and stick with the safe option because it isn't really bad but could improve with luck OR get out and make our own way. I have heard nothing to convince me otherwise from leaving and I have much more to lose than most Brits as an expat.
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Answers:
I did not say that those issues had a direct bearing on the UK being either in or out of the EU. I purely mentioned those in the context of a measure of how well, or not, the UK will be doing post Brexit, and how it has affected it's prospects.
But the trend already is not good:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/nov/02/european-nurses-midwives-leaving-uk-nhs-brexit-vote
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/02/number-eu-nurses-registering-work-britain-falls-90-per-cent/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41838426
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/23/brexit-manufacturers-limiting-investment-due-to-shortage-of-workers
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/13/uk-apple-growers-labour-shortage-brexit
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/food-inflation
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/housebuilders-report-loss-of-skilled-workers-since-brexit-vote-v9t9ttz8c
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/fears-of-brexit-braindrain-grow-as-one-million-eu-nationals-consider-leaving-the-uk-a3621361.html
So, with a looming multi-billion payout to the EU, the above shortage of workers in the health, building and agricultural industries already, with increasing food prices it does not look good. Yes, industrial output is actually very strong currently, but the future output relies on confidence in the market place, and a healthy, effective, well fed work force. We shall see.
The wars you mention were not world wars, but regional conflicts. Only The Falklands was a regional conflict involving just the British, and a fine job the military did in stitching together just enough military hardware to do the job without help with the physical job from the USA, although their assistance with intelligence was required. As for "Britain's wealth" coming from it's military might, well no, that is not true. In fact both World Wars contributed to the bankrupting of Britain as the country was forced to pour all it's wealth into armaments and the cost of funding war, with that representing between 47% (for 1914-18) and 52% of GDP in 1945. So that "military might" was impressive to look at, but was usually far too expensive to maintain and was frequently found to be obsolete. Only in the 18th and 19th century was Britain's military, along with the East India Trading Company (from 1600 to 1874) assisting in the growth of commercial trade, but the costs of maintaining and policing the Empire were huge, and at the expense of social change at home. That is why the Empire collapsed in the 20th Century as Britain could no longer afford to maintain a military presence around the globe; it was far more effective to have trade agreements with distant countries and let them defend themselves.
As for the "little Englander" comment, I do not like it either! I love my country and will NOT be moving away any time soon! However, the comment is still relevant: aimed at those amoungst us who only think (and voted for Brexit) of how many immigrants are in the country, how many are "taking their jobs", moan about how many houses are going to be built near to them, and only think of political / or any actions when it affects them, with an attitude of blow everyone else.
As for not comprehending the full facts, well yes, I agree fully with your comments. As I stated Cameron was to blame for that, with an awful Remain campaign that failed to really mention the facts of the situation, which buffoon Boris and Co., fully exploited. ;)
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Lizzie. My point was how much the uk derives from arms and military kit sales. We are the second biggest arms supplier in the world apparently.
Overall Total 15 billion a year? Bit embarrassing as we sort of have a vested interest in conflict. :-[
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Nothing like a good war to boost the economy ::)
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Lizzie. My point was how much the uk derives from arms and military kit sales. We are the second biggest arms supplier in the world apparently.
Overall Total 15 billion a year? Bit embarrassing as we sort of have a vested interest in conflict. :-[
A good percentage of that is through joint programs with our closet ally, the US. Where their defense budget is much larger than ours there has been much free technology transfer where we have used many defense standards they have researched and developed free of charge. In many cases, UK defense companies have then won US defense contracts using these standards. They have also spent $60m on upgrading GCHQ under 5-eyes intelligence sharing where they wanted GCHQ to have better equipment for both our benefits. Compare how the US treats us as an ally to how we are treated in Europe, where all they want more of is our money and our subjugation.
Our trade balance with Europe is dreadful where this has been a deliberate policy by the German's, French and EU commission with our quotas reduced in each round of new negotiations where it has generally been 27 countries against the UK. Repatriating fishing, agriculture and industrial policy is going to quickly improve this and it will be felt by all of us with cheaper prices. Germany's deliberate trade surplus means they will gradually own all EU assets. There is no other outcome as buying asset/businesses will be used to balance the trade surplus/deficit book. :( :( :(
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Quoting Varche:
But that has little or nothing to do with being in or out of the EU. That is just a myth.
We in the UK should all do what we can to unite the world not blow it apart Fine words but did you denounce our actions in the Falklands war, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Kuwait to name but a few? Like it or not a lot of Britains wealth comes from our military might as showcased in various wars.
Fifth or sixth largest economy in the world. A pathetic little Englander.!? I hate that term on so many levels. Emigrate if you don't like the place
without fully comprehending the true facts Whose fault is that? the government of the day and the EU for that matter. they could have changed in recognition of growing concerns within its member countries but DID NOT. What are the true facts? No one actually knows. Not even well paid economists. Why? Because no one knows what deal we will end up with or even how it will pan out with a no deal. The bottom line was vote remain and stick with the safe option because it isn't really bad but could improve with luck OR get out and make our own way. I have heard nothing to convince me otherwise from leaving and I have much more to lose than most Brits as an expat.
Answers:
The wars you mention were not world wars, but regional conflicts.
On this Remembrance Sunday of such great importance I want to clarify what I stated above. In no way did I intend to belittle the Regional Wars, or conflicts as I said. They WERE wars costing all too many lives, and wrecking the futures of many, many more. I was trying, clumsily, to distinguish those wars with the two big WORLD Wars, when millions died, and many millions more had their lives shattered forever.
May we remember them :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
My Great Uncle Frank "Wally" Edwards, aged 37, killed on the 30th July 1917 at Ypres
My Grandfather Thomas Freeman, aged 40, killed by a Luftwaffe bomb on the 12th September, 1940
Please, no more war !!!! :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Humans are aggressive territorial animals which mean there will always be wars. :o :o :o
The world is split between democracies and dictators, with dictators starting most wars due to the oppression of their subjects (civil wars) and to the lack of checks on their leader's power so they start wars with their neighbours and other countries they disagree with. :( :( :(
IMO The West's chances of avoiding a war against the axis of evil (Russia, China, Iran and DPRK) in our lifetime is small. The West's politicians don't care they are setting up the next world war through a free pass in gaining the West's most advanced technology by the axis of evil. The US and many European countries are equally guilty of this. China's communist party is as committed as the Russian one of spreading their ideology over the rest of the world. Communism has killed at least 100 million people over the last 100 years and will continue to kill many more. :( :( :(
We already have a 3.5-year-old hot war in Europe, in Ukraine, which is killing on average one brave defender against Putin's invasion every day, since the Minsk II farce ceasefire. There have been over 10,000 Ukrainian troops and civilians killed by Putin's murderous troops and mercenaries. It cannot be considered as anything other than mass murder where there has never been any declaration of war by Russia. Many more 21st-century mass murders will be undeclared wars where they will use elements of the Russian Gerasimov Doctrine. :o :o :o
When your country is attacked by conventional or unconventional means you either defend it or lose. Where Russia declared Cold War 2.0 in 2014 (although it is arguably the invasion of Georgia in 2008) most of the West has failed to respond including the UK. This has allowed Russia to interfere in many elections and referendums with each success making them bolder with the next one. They got their man Yanukovych as president of Ukraine, but his greed, corruption and widespread stealing of businesses and Government wealth lead to the 2014 Revolution of Dignity, which saved the country and restored their democracy. There is evidence that they interfered in the #Brexit one through Cambridge Analitca, Facebook and Twitter bots all of which were a good trial run for the much bigger prize of getting their man in the Whitehouse using the same techniques. By targetting key states they won the electoral college even though Clinton got 3m more votes. Fortunately, Trump is an incompetent idiot, but he is a very dangerous one and it remains to be seen if their Constitution and institutions are strong enough to save their democracy. At best the US is currently examining their options best described by Churchill "You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else". The FBI Robert Mueller investigation and whether the GOP is partisan or bipartisan in their support of Trump where they control both houses in Congress and the results from the November 2018 mid-term elections will be crucial in saving US democracy. If Trump is impeached it will also be the end of the GOP and US politics will change from only two parties. Russian interference in the French election was a failure but they had some success in Germany with their support of AfD. They have had further success in recent Eastern European elections and I expect more in 2018 which will present new challenges to the EU, especially over Islamic refugees where Eastern Europe won't accept EU quotas and this will be exploited by Putin. :( :( :(
It is noticeable that the current generation of Western leaders are post-WWII fighting and experience and their persistent mistakes are empowering our enemies and making a major global conflict much more likely. We are currently in a period of major political and technological disruption with the last one leading to WWI and WWII. Will we do better this time? I'm not sure we will in this nuclear-armed world, hence the doomsday clock being currently so close to midnight. ::) ::) ::)
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Lizzie. My point was how much the uk derives from arms and military kit sales. We are the second biggest arms supplier in the world apparently.
Overall Total 15 billion a year? Bit embarrassing as we sort of have a vested interest in conflict. :-[
But again, sorry Varche, it is a no.
"We" the people gain very little from conflict. We just end up with the pain, suffering, and grief caused by our wars, as the wealthy, corporate shareholders and ruling class, along with the USA, get the profits. They always have, and indeed the latter was made rich by both World Wars.
No, we the people also have to pick up the tab of the cost of the wars as our government recoups money through taxation to repay huge loans taken out to fund them. The British public have only in 2006 finally paid the last 50th installment of £54 million the debt originally £3 billion (£4.8 billion after interest) outstanding to Uncle Sam and Canada from WW2, and, amazingly, only in 2015 paid the last £1.9 billion loan in bonds outstanding from The Great War, and with a proportion going back to the South Sea Bubble and Waterloo. However, interestingly after Britain borrowed a total of £7 billion from the USA to fund the Great War, Britain defaulted on it's repayments in 1934 and, allowing for inflation still owes Uncle Sam £40 billion.
So, no, apart from the obvious gains from employment in the armaments industry, the average person in Britain gets no gain from war.
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Humans are aggressive territorial animals which mean there will always be wars. :o :o :o
The world is split between democracies and dictators, with dictators starting most wars due to the oppression of their subjects (civil wars) and to the lack of checks on their leader's power so they start wars with their neighbours and other countries they disagree with. :( :( :(
Well yes, after my time on this earth I have learnt that, and my simple (hopeless) plea for "no more war" was I thought what the vast majority of humans hope for. They do not wish for war.
Throughout history there has either been power hungry and greedy monarchs, emperors, empire building politicians, dictators, or complete arse hole war lords and nutters, always men (I think without exception) who are prepared to see the commoners killed and injured for personal gain. The greed of man is such that, as the great philosopher Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679) recognised and I quote:
" " No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death; and the life of man,
solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.
It is not wisdom but Authority that makes a law.
The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."
Man is simply conditioned to making war, to him peace is purely an interlude, like the sun between showers. Until this condition is cured, by a bloody miracle or the Apocalyptic end predicted by many, then we live with the knowledge of constant war.
In the area of Europe (not the EU!!) we can draw some satisfaction that since we sorted out our previously constant political and imperialistic differences, with democracy in some form or another taking control, we have for 72 years enjoyed peace. No longer do we feel obliged to fight the French, the Spanish, the Dutch or of course the Germans, and neither do they want to fight us, unless it is at a football match!!
If man had the same emotional feelings as women, who care what happens to the innocents and weak outside of their immediate families, who also never want to see their loved ones lives put at risk, then war would never happen. If women ruled the world............................but now(in 2017) I am straying into fantasy; maybe in a thousand years, IF we ever as a species get there, we will learn that and see it in practice.
No, war is a reality, but it is a tremendous waste of human blood, sweat, tears, and commodity. :'(
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Yay Jimmy's got his tin foil helmet out again! ;D :y
Maybe so, but, the one thing which is incontrovertible, when it comes to UK politicians is that every one of them is politically and personally out for their own ends.
The chlorinated chicken and hormone enhanced beef are well documented, and its also on The Orange One's agenda to get this cr@p onto our tables.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/29/hormonal-beef-chlorine-chicken-could-coming-uk-trade-deal-us/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/29/hormonal-beef-chlorine-chicken-could-coming-uk-trade-deal-us/)
Once we are out of the EU, whoever the incumbent political party is, will be under immense pressure to do deals with all the nations who the EU were apparently blocking us from trading with. So that we can "forge ahead on the world stage" and do all those other things that 52% of the voters are certain we'll be doing. Add to that a nice slice of pocket lining back-handers and it'll get done.
The US gov't (as an entity) isn't stupid, they know their negotiating position is superior and we will give concessions. I'd be amazed if this isn't one of them, sure there will be some aimless platitudes about "clear labelling" and "offering people a greater variety and choice when it comes to the weekly shop" and all that other gonads. But, as I say, I'll be amazed if the stuff doesn't make it through to us.
As to my expanding mammillae, probably unlikely, and in truth not much research has been done on hormone beef and its effect on humans, however, the only study I could find reference to online didn't make it sound terribly enticing...
A study published in the November 2011 issue of the journal "The Science of the Total Environment" found that a chemical growth promoter used in cattle may affect growth rates in girls. The compound, called zeranol, is an endocrine disruptor that blocks estrogen, resulting in growth rate abnormalities. In the study, 78.5 percent of the girls had measurable levels of zeranol. These girls were shorter, on average, and showed slower rates of breast development than girls with no detectable levels of the chemical. Researchers called for larger, more diverse studies to further clarify their results.
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Lizzie. My point was how much the uk derives from arms and military kit sales. We are the second biggest arms supplier in the world apparently.
Overall Total 15 billion a year? Bit embarrassing as we sort of have a vested interest in conflict. :-[
But again, sorry Varche, it is a no.
"We" the people gain very little from conflict. We just end up with the pain, suffering, and grief caused by our wars, as the wealthy, corporate shareholders and ruling class, along with the USA, get the profits. They always have, and indeed the latter was made rich by both World Wars.
No, we the people also have to pick up the tab of the cost of the wars as our government recoups money through taxation to repay huge loans taken out to fund them. The British public have only in 2006 finally paid the last 50th installment of £54 million the debt originally £3 billion (£4.8 billion after interest) outstanding to Uncle Sam and Canada from WW2, and, amazingly, only in 2015 paid the last £1.9 billion loan in bonds outstanding from The Great War, and with a proportion going back to the South Sea Bubble and Waterloo. However, interestingly after Britain borrowed a total of £7 billion from the USA to fund the Great War, Britain defaulted on it's repayments in 1934 and, allowing for inflation still owes Uncle Sam £40 billion.
So, no, apart from the obvious gains from employment in the armaments industry, the average person in Britain gets no gain from war.
Quite right. We refers to the establishment, decision makers. Not the people. We just are ants and as you say pay. Not once have the people said yes we will go to war. Those decisions are out of our hands. When the ants do get a vote and say as in Brexit and the result is not how the establishment wanted, heaven and earth is moved to get the “right result”.that is why May will fall.
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Yay Jimmy's got his tin foil helmet out again! ;D :y
Maybe so, but, the one thing which is incontrovertible, when it comes to UK politicians is that every one of them is politically and personally out for their own ends.
The chlorinated chicken and hormone enhanced beef are well documented, and its also on The Orange One's agenda to get this cr@p onto our tables.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/29/hormonal-beef-chlorine-chicken-could-coming-uk-trade-deal-us/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/29/hormonal-beef-chlorine-chicken-could-coming-uk-trade-deal-us/)
Once we are out of the EU, whoever the incumbent political party is, will be under immense pressure to do deals with all the nations who the EU were apparently blocking us from trading with. So that we can "forge ahead on the world stage" and do all those other things that 52% of the voters are certain we'll be doing. Add to that a nice slice of pocket lining back-handers and it'll get done.
The US gov't (as an entity) isn't stupid, they know their negotiating position is superior and we will give concessions. I'd be amazed if this isn't one of them, sure there will be some aimless platitudes about "clear labelling" and "offering people a greater variety and choice when it comes to the weekly shop" and all that other gonads. But, as I say, I'll be amazed if the stuff doesn't make it through to us.
As to my expanding mammillae, probably unlikely, and in truth not much research has been done on hormone beef and its effect on humans, however, the only study I could find reference to online didn't make it sound terribly enticing...
A study published in the November 2011 issue of the journal "The Science of the Total Environment" found that a chemical growth promoter used in cattle may affect growth rates in girls. The compound, called zeranol, is an endocrine disruptor that blocks estrogen, resulting in growth rate abnormalities. In the study, 78.5 percent of the girls had measurable levels of zeranol. These girls were shorter, on average, and showed slower rates of breast development than girls with no detectable levels of the chemical. Researchers called for larger, more diverse studies to further clarify their results.
Ha ha. No backhanders for our current lot in bed with the EU? They are all at it. We will just be swapping one bunch for another. Most British housewives will welcome anything cheap. They have form. We
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Lizzie. My point was how much the uk derives from arms and military kit sales. We are the second biggest arms supplier in the world apparently.
Overall Total 15 billion a year? Bit embarrassing as we sort of have a vested interest in conflict. :-[
But again, sorry Varche, it is a no.
"We" the people gain very little from conflict. We just end up with the pain, suffering, and grief caused by our wars, as the wealthy, corporate shareholders and ruling class, along with the USA, get the profits. They always have, and indeed the latter was made rich by both World Wars.
No, we the people also have to pick up the tab of the cost of the wars as our government recoups money through taxation to repay huge loans taken out to fund them. The British public have only in 2006 finally paid the last 50th installment of £54 million the debt originally £3 billion (£4.8 billion after interest) outstanding to Uncle Sam and Canada from WW2, and, amazingly, only in 2015 paid the last £1.9 billion loan in bonds outstanding from The Great War, and with a proportion going back to the South Sea Bubble and Waterloo. However, interestingly after Britain borrowed a total of £7 billion from the USA to fund the Great War, Britain defaulted on it's repayments in 1934 and, allowing for inflation still owes Uncle Sam £40 billion.
So, no, apart from the obvious gains from employment in the armaments industry, the average person in Britain gets no gain from war.
Quite right. We refers to the establishment, decision makers. Not the people. We just are ants and as you say pay. Not once have the people said yes we will go to war. Those decisions are out of our hands. When the ants do get a vote and say as in Brexit and the result is not how the establishment wanted, heaven and earth is moved to get the “right result”.that is why May will fall.
Yes, as in the case of Blair and the Iraq War.
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Ha ha. No backhanders for our current lot in bed with the EU? They are all at it. We will just be swapping one bunch for another. Most British housewives will welcome anything cheap. They have form. We
Now at no point did I claim that ;D.
But, the EU does have a lot of quaint rules around what can and cannot go into food, along with many other things. However, once we are "freed from the EU's shackles", its all down to us as to what we allow the yanks to sell us. And by us, I mean the perpetual clusterfu€k of a government in Westminster.
The sad thing is though, you're right, as with most things in the UK we'll buy it because its cheap, and once again, deserve all that we get.
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That Telegraph link is little more than anti Brexit propaganda...
Anyone who genuinely believes that our food isn't already fed supplements needs sectioning.
Without WW2, British manufacturers wouldn't have employed so many people and the global recession of the '30s would have lasted much longer.
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Talk to anybody that has experienced war in the armed forces or caught up in it as a civilian and they will tell you anything is better than war. Many who have fought have ended up being haunted by the death either by their actions in combat or watching those die around them.
I remember asking my great uncle about fighting in the Battle of the Somme, he went very quiet, had a 100-yard stare in his eyes for about 5 minutes and only started talking again by changing to a very different subject. My nan when he wasn't about asked me to never raise the subject again as it brought back bad memories that he had never talked about. As he was my favourite great-uncle, I felt a bit guilty about what I had done and I never raised the subject again.
After the absolutely disgraceful way Germany and France treated Greece over their bank's debt another European war when the EU collapses cannot be ruled out. Where German & French banks should have taken the losses (and banking crisis) from a default by the Greek banks they lean't it to, they literally lent Greece the money as sovereign debt and as it was paid into the Greek central bank it was paid out to the German and French banks to clear those debts thus socializing the debt as a Greek taxpayer liability which will keep them in servitude for many generations. :o :o :o
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While there are humans on the planet, we will have wars. Its in our nature I'm afraid. We might ultimately wipe ourselves out in the process, but until then, we will fight one another.
The EU treatment of Greece is a fine example of what the EU is all about, for those who still have some delusion that there is anything good and well intentioned within it. Its about power and control for its own sake, with democracy seen as a nuisance which tries to get in the way, and should be ignored.
This is much more important than financial considerations.
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Worth reading this short article written by Christopher Chope MP, where he is one of a group of cross-party MPs who form the "Exiting the European Union Select Committee" and visited Brussels for a series of meetings with EU chief negotiator Michael Barnier and President of the EU Parliament Guy Verhofstadt last week. They conclude that a no deal is much better than their deal. As I suspected from day 1 there is no intention in concluding any deal that would be acceptable to the UK.
http://brexitcentral.com/meeting-michel-barnier-guy-verhofstadt-ive-concluded-no-deal-will-better-deal/ (http://brexitcentral.com/meeting-michel-barnier-guy-verhofstadt-ive-concluded-no-deal-will-better-deal/)
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Quite. There is no reason whatsoever for the EU to offer us anything other than a punitive deal. To do so would invite the breakup to the whole union.
Why anyone believed we would get that "good deal" that Weak n Wobbly keeps banging on about is beyond me. ::)
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A punitive deal is a breach of international law. ;)...................but I don't think for one minute that will stop them. ::)
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You should be more concerned about the deal when we rejoin the EU we never left. First part of that is happening now with the May toppling.
Britain won't have the opt outs it had, might have to contribute more each year, will finally be a subservient member state. Who knows we might even have to adopt the euro. Now that really would be one in the eye for even the most ardent of the current remain band.
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I, for one, look forward to my new EU overlords.
They can have the country for a couple of years before the robots take over.
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Who knows we might even have to adopt the euro. Now that really would be one in the eye for even the most ardent of the current remain band.
Indeed bitter pills to swallow, but if it meant the opportunity to watch Farage's head actually implode, it could be a price worth paying ;D.
In all seriousness, if that did occur, I think I would choose to ply my trade elsewhere.
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Not really a negotiation of equals. At least that is how it looks to me.
It seems the EU has the whip hand and it is they who decide the order of business. When they say jump, we ask how high. :-\
They'll be tears before bedtime. :-\
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It doesn't help that the government is close to imploding. :-\
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You should be more concerned about the deal when we rejoin the EU we never left. First part of that is happening now with the May toppling.
Britain won't have the opt outs it had, might have to contribute more each year, will finally be a subservient member state. Who knows we might even have to adopt the euro. Now that really would be one in the eye for even the most ardent of the current remain band.
No I don't think that will happen for a moment and lets not forget that a punitive deal for Britain is also a punitive deal for people and businesses across the EU. ;) If they do offer a punitive deal, then TM is right that no deal is better than a bad deal. ::)
I read somewhere that the EU has started trade negotiations with New Zealand and their opening demand is that NZ halt existing trade talks with Russia. ::) Apparently the Kiwi's are outraged! ;D
Whether it's true or not I don't know :-\ , but lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story and it dosn't sound beyond the realms of possibility. ::)
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It doesn't help that the government is close to imploding. :-\
We have a government. :y
Unlike the Germans who are trying to cobble together a 3 party coalition. ::) and the Dutch who recently regained a government 7 months after their election. ::) Oh and the French who do have a government, but the people are perpetually on the verge of riots and civil disobedience. ::) Spain? Nuff said. :o Italy? They have elections next year against a backdrop of a decade of economic stagnation and recent government bank bailouts that are probably contrary to EU law, but the Commission has looked the other way! ::)
It's so strong and stable on the other side on La Manche! ::) :D
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You should be more concerned about the deal when we rejoin the EU we never left. First part of that is happening now with the May toppling.
Britain won't have the opt outs it had, might have to contribute more each year, will finally be a subservient member state. Who knows we might even have to adopt the euro. Now that really would be one in the eye for even the most ardent of the current remain band.
No I don't think that will happen for a moment and lets not forget that a punitive deal for Britain is also a punitive deal for people and businesses across the EU. ;) If they do offer a punitive deal, then TM is right that no deal is better than a bad deal. ::)
I read somewhere that the EU has started trade negotiations with New Zealand and their opening demand is that NZ halt existing trade talks with Russia. ::) Apparently the Kiwi's are outraged! ;D
Whether it's true or not I don't know :-\ , but lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story and it dosn't sound beyond the realms of possibility. ::)
You maybe right. However there is a lot of momentum for rejoining having never left.
Donald Tusk wants it.
a lot of remain voters would be in favour. It wouldn' take long for fickle politicians to back the public clamour. After all they are supposed to represent their votoers.
Crucially the establishment both sides of the channel would be in favour. Don't forget the Cameron vote was only a glitch in the process. One that none of them ever thought would lead to an out vote.
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You maybe right. However there is a lot of momentum for rejoining having never left.
Donald Tusk wants it.
a lot of remain voters would be in favour. It wouldn' take long for fickle politicians to back the public clamour. After all they are supposed to represent their votoers.
Crucially the establishment both sides of the channel would be in favour. Don't forget the Cameron vote was only a glitch in the process. One that none of them ever thought would lead to an out vote.
Nonsense! and who cares what Tusk wants! ::)
I think that attitudes are hardening amongst the 'silent majority' in this country and I think a lot of people who voted remain did so through gritted teeth believing the dire warnings of immediate armageddon should we vote to leave the EU! ::)
Now they have seen that we havn't yet ridden into hell on our handcart, I don't believe the idea that people have changed their minds. If anything they are becoming more 'bloody minded' against the EU having seen how they are trying to shaft us! ;)
As to the EU having the whip hand I don't believe that either. They want our money and I think that Barnier is under a lot of pressure to deliver. I think that they imagined that the UK would have caved in by now and I think it was more of an act of desperation when Barnier delivered his 2 week ultimatum, than a position of strength. ::)
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I completely agree. :y
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You maybe right. However there is a lot of momentum for rejoining having never left.
Donald Tusk wants it.
a lot of remain voters would be in favour. It wouldn' take long for fickle politicians to back the public clamour. After all they are supposed to represent their votoers.
Crucially the establishment both sides of the channel would be in favour. Don't forget the Cameron vote was only a glitch in the process. One that none of them ever thought would lead to an out vote.
Nonsense! and who cares what Tusk wants! ::)
I think that attitudes are hardening amongst the 'silent majority' in this country and I think a lot of people who voted remain did so through gritted teeth believing the dire warnings of immediate armageddon should we vote to leave the EU! ::)
Now they have seen that we havn't yet ridden into hell on our handcart, I don't believe the idea that people have changed their minds. If anything they are becoming more 'bloody minded' against the EU having seen how they are trying to shaft us! ;)
As to the EU having the whip hand I don't believe that either. They want our money and I think that Barnier is under a lot of pressure to deliver. I think that they imagined that the UK would have caved in by now and I think it was more of an act of desperation when Barnier delivered his 2 week ultimatum, than a position of strength. ::)
Well, not quite in my case, but I've never been enthusiastic about the EU. It is too flawed and f*cked up for that.
I voted remain because I thought it the 'least worst' choice and I still feel the same way.
Similar to the choice of voting for either Trump or Bill Clinton's f*ck buddy. ::) Neither being a great option. :)
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Good article by CapX which shows the weaknesses in the EU's hand. I think it underplays the issues of a no deal to the UK but it does highlight the EU's problems with us leaving and the jobs at stake in German manufacturing and French agriculture. It will also cause major issues for the Dutch and Spanish when we substitute cheaper greenhouse produce from North Africa and other non-EU countries.
https://capx.co/the-eus-hand-is-weaker-than-it-claims/ (https://capx.co/the-eus-hand-is-weaker-than-it-claims/)
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2 things happened today (yesterday/monday). :)
Firstly a group of important corporate bigwigs from the continent visited Mrs May at Downing Street and told her that we have to pay more money for a free trade agreement so their businesses aren't inconvenienced. :)
Secondly David Davies told Parliament that they can have a vote on the deal after all, however if they vote it down we leave with no deal and anyway the vote might not happen until after we've left with no deal. ;) It's immaterial as the EU Parliament egged on by the deranged Guy Verhofstat will vote it down anyway and we'll leave the EU with no deal. ::)
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Interesting developments.
The cabinet hsve agreed to up the offer. Some speculation it could be 40billion.
A group of German business leaders have urged the striking of a trade deal above political considerations
Might be another German election.
No sign of a solution to Irish border but then if there is no trade deal it is academic.
Still think it is going to end in a no deal at all at the 11th hour.
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Interesting developments.
The cabinet hsve agreed to up the offer. Some speculation it could be 40billion.
A group of German business leaders have urged the striking of a trade deal above political considerations
Might be another German election.
No sign of a solution to Irish border but then if there is no trade deal it is academic.
Still think it is going to end in a no deal at all at the 11th hour.
Which is forty thousand million pounds. A huge amount of money.......or forty thousands pots each containing a million pounds. :o :o :o
Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought the idea of leaving the EU was that we would SAVE £350 million each week which in turn would SAVE the NHS. :)
I don't recall any mention by anyone from either side saying we would need to pay to leave.
Perhaps we should say "We're British" and refuse to pay the cads and scoundrels. :)
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Even when we do leave (sort of) in 2019 it looks as though we will still pay for access to the single market. :-\
It also looks as if we will still be submissive to the ECJ and still have no control over movement of people. :-\
As for the 'transitional period' of 2 years.......I wouldn't bet on it. It could be decades or even longer. :-\
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No sign of a solution to Irish border but then if there is no trade deal it is academic.
Still think it is going to end in a no deal at all at the 11th hour.
Except that its only the DUP that are propping up Ms Weak n Wobbly in No. 10. No deal, must mean a hard border in Ireland, do you think the DUP would wear that? Serious question, I have no idea what the mind set of that particular band of religious nutcases is. ::)
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No sign of a solution to Irish border but then if there is no trade deal it is academic.
Still think it is going to end in a no deal at all at the 11th hour.
Except that its only the DUP that are propping up Ms Weak n Wobbly in No. 10. No deal, must mean a hard border in Ireland, do you think the DUP would wear that? Serious question, I have no idea what the mind set of that particular band of religious nutcases is. ::)
The DUP like Theresa. :) The billion pound gift make no difference. :)
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Re Justice.
I believe we (Britain) have just lost their seat in the international court of justice. Don't know why. That seems strange.
I wonder how many other countries on the planet post Brexit will have their laws ruled by an external body? I am guessing one. that also seems strange.
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Some banking operations are already moving abroad.
The EBA (European banking authority) is moving from London to Paris.
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Some banking operations are already moving abroad.
The EBA (European banking authority) is moving from London to Paris.
And the European Medicines Agency ::) ::) :( :(
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Some banking operations are already moving abroad.
The EBA (European banking authority) is moving from London to Paris.
And the European Medicines Agency ::) ::) :( :(
Yep.....Amsterdam. Located in London since 1995 and employs around 900 people in Canary Wharf, apparently.
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Sigh, where to start......... ::)
No deal does not automatically mean a hard border in Ireland. Nor does it threaten the so called peace process (someones bluff needs calling on that one).
The border can remain open on the conditions that the Dublin Govt. are responsible for ensuring that a serious problem doesn't develop where illegal immigrants arrive in the Republic of Ireland and then try to enter the UK by heading north to the border.
Also, if any kind of terrorists come across the border and then nip back down south again, the UK will reserve the right to take any security measures needed to protect its people. Job done.
No need to worry about customs, as that border has always been more porous than a sponge and no-one cared, so why make an issue of it now ?
As for the DUP. Most of them aren't religious at all, although their founding father was. Even his son has been known to get blind drunk, although he got pretty concerned when a copper found him and said "I'm gonna tell your Da". ;D
I'm surprised the DUP are said to be so strongly against the possibility of a hard border, as the Republic has been seen by many Loyalists to be an aggressor and an enemy (often with good reason) and would prefer it to be on a different continent. ::)
What they will not stand for (and rightly so), is the notion of a border in the Irish sea, between mainland Britain and the island of Ireland
.
The £40 billion or whatever the figure is, is ludicrous. Its politics again. The politics of uniting the cabinet, by a compromise which doesn't completely suit anyone but will probably bring the remoaners, such as Hammond and Rudd close to being "on message" with the rest of them.
If we need to pay them to access their market. We should be reminding them that they sell a hell of a lot more to use than we sell to them, so they need to make a generous offer to access our market in return.
What we need right now is a clone of Thatcher to appear out of the mist, to scare the bejaysus out of the pygmies in Brussels like she used to.
Or at least a PM in possession of a spine.
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Some banking operations are already moving abroad.
The EBA (European banking authority) is moving from London to Paris.
And the European Medicines Agency ::) ::) :( :(
Yep.....Amsterdam. Located in London since 1995 and employs around 900 people in Canary Wharf, apparently.
It was always inevitable that EU institutions would leave the UK when we leave the EU. Its insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
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Some banking operations are already moving abroad.
The EBA (European banking authority) is moving from London to Paris.
And the European Medicines Agency ::) ::) :( :(
with their 35,000 man day junkets a year visits!!! (their own website figure)
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Apparently the previously mentioned institutions use 40,000 hotel rooms per year. :-X
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Great, maybe hotel prices in London will go down a bit now then! ;D
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Great, maybe hotel prices in London will go down a bit now then! ;D
I can certainly see London becoming less important.
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Some banking operations are already moving abroad.
The EBA (European banking authority) is moving from London to Paris.
And the European Medicines Agency ::) ::) :( :(
Yep.....Amsterdam. Located in London since 1995 and employs around 900 people in Canary Wharf, apparently.
Put into perspective since the June Brexit vote 300,000 jobs have been created in the UK and the current number of job vacancies has also grown. Where the EU and many mainland European Governments don't care much about business success, wealth creation and jobs like we do in the UK and in Eastern European countries like Poland, unemployment especially youth unemployment is much, much higher than the UK.
Shock horror for Remoaners, Brexit is a divorce, who would have thought it! So I expect each party to take back and assume control in many areas. We are doing the same in where the EU has taken control of trade deals, CFP and CAP etc. The moribund EU Commission decision-making process also cannot cope with the rate of Global change, UK Government pre-EU had a very good record in the introduction of innovative legislation in many changing areas like copyright protection of computer games to biotechnology which gives us a competitive advantage. :y :y :y
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Sigh, where to start......... ::)
No deal does not automatically mean a hard border in Ireland. Nor does it threaten the so called peace process (someones bluff needs calling on that one).
The border can remain open on the conditions that the Dublin Govt. are responsible for ensuring that a serious problem doesn't develop where illegal immigrants arrive in the Republic of Ireland and then try to enter the UK by heading north to the border.
Also, if any kind of terrorists come across the border and then nip back down south again, the UK will reserve the right to take any security measures needed to protect its people. Job done.
No need to worry about customs, as that border has always been more porous than a sponge and no-one cared, so why make an issue of it now ?
As for the DUP. Most of them aren't religious at all, although their founding father was. Even his son has been known to get blind drunk, although he got pretty concerned when a copper found him and said "I'm gonna tell your Da". ;D
I'm surprised the DUP are said to be so strongly against the possibility of a hard border, as the Republic has been seen by many Loyalists to be an aggressor and an enemy (often with good reason) and would prefer it to be on a different continent. ::)
What they will not stand for (and rightly so), is the notion of a border in the Irish sea, between mainland Britain and the island of Ireland
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The £40 billion or whatever the figure is, is ludicrous. Its politics again. The politics of uniting the cabinet, by a compromise which doesn't completely suit anyone but will probably bring the remoaners, such as Hammond and Rudd close to being "on message" with the rest of them.
If we need to pay them to access their market. We should be reminding them that they sell a hell of a lot more to use than we sell to them, so they need to make a generous offer to access our market in return.
What we need right now is a clone of Thatcher to appear out of the mist, to scare the bejaysus out of the pygmies in Brussels like she used to.
Or at least a PM in possession of a spine.
A hard border is an EU problem, not a UK one so we need to do nothing apart from having an electronic customs system so all official importers declare their goods pay any import duties for goods imported from Eire into NI. A customs deport and bonded warehouse can be located anywhere and importers can be called from time-to-time to go there and have their loads inspected. The EU is a protectionist area where they restrict competition through high import tariffs and quotas. Why should we care if ROW uses the border as a cheap import route into the EU? ::) ::) ::) It is not our problem. :y :y :y
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It seems quite apt that the European Drugs Agency is to be located in Amsterdam! :)
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Great, maybe hotel prices in London will go down a bit now then! ;D
I can certainly see London becoming less important.
Unlikely.
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I can certainly see London becoming less important.
Unlikely.
If you look at this from another angle the EU are moving their banking authority from a city that's a global banking centre, to a city that's not even a regional banking centre. ::)
Now tell me again who's diminished by this move? ;)
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I can certainly see London becoming less important.
Unlikely.
If you look at this from another angle the EU are moving their banking authority from a city that's a global banking centre, to a city that's not even a regional banking centre. ::)
Now tell me again who's diminished by this move? ;)
Perhaps that should read.........from a city that 'used to be' the global banking centre. ;)
Nothing is forever, even my good looks and charm will eventually fade. :)
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I can certainly see London becoming less important.
Unlikely.
If you look at this from another angle the EU are moving their banking authority from a city that's a global banking centre, to a city that's not even a regional banking centre. ::)
Now tell me again who's diminished by this move? ;)
Perhaps that should read.........from a city that 'used to be' the global banking centre. ;)
Nothing is forever, even my good looks and charm will eventually fade. :)
Don't you know Opti that after Brexit Great Britain will be THE new world power, the centre of the world's trade, and everyone is going to be so rich..............??!!! ::) ::)
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Great, maybe hotel prices in London will go down a bit now then! ;D
I can certainly see London becoming less important.
Unlikely.
How so? Are we to assume that passporting rights for financial services will be exempted from the lack of free movement of people/goods/services? If we don't get passporting rights, why would Paris or Frankfurt not be a preferred option?
Put into perspective since the June Brexit vote 300,000 jobs have been created in the UK
But down 60,000 in the last quarter. 30,000 job vacancies down also.
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I bet that there will be much wailing and knashing of teeth and accusations of a stitch up, especially from the EU's newer members that two of the EU's founding members have landed these agencies. ::)
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I can certainly see London becoming less important.
Unlikely.
If you look at this from another angle the EU are moving their banking authority from a city that's a global banking centre, to a city that's not even a regional banking centre. ::)
Now tell me again who's diminished by this move? ;)
Perhaps that should read.........from a city that 'used to be' the global banking centre. ;)
Nothing is forever, even my good looks and charm will eventually fade. :)
Don't you know Opti that after Brexit Great Britain will be THE new world power, the centre of the world's trade, and everyone is going to be so rich..............??!!! ::) ::)
You mean like Singapore where this is a good free-trading post-Brexit vision for the UK. Read up on where Singapore was after independence until now. Reading about how well we administered Hong Kong compared with how our political f*ckwits ruled the UK in comparison especially Liebour ones is also a good one. The irony of how well a technocratic administration with Hong Kong can manage an economic area compared with the total self-serving mess the EU Commission has made is not lost on me. :o :o :o
The City of London is not going anywhere despite what Remoaners wish as it is cheaper, easier and more profitable to do business here than other European mainland wannabe financial centres. It takes about 100 years to build the infrastructure and skills to make a major financial centre, which is why China has been so lucky in inheriting Hong Kong.
Remoaner Passporting drama is also a non-story as this has already been sorted by London based financial institutions and don't forget that the reverse also applies to European financial institutions being able to carry on trading here. For those that don't know this is largely handled by the UK having the same financial laws as the EU where there are international reciprocal agreements, which both parties are signatories of.
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From what I read, the reason that the rest of Europe is making it hard for us is that the EU will go into bankruptcy after we go
Keith ABS
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UK factory output is at its highest level since 1988. Ive seen this with my own employer. The order books are full to bursting, and the only problem they seem to have is convincing the workforce to work 25 hours a day 8 days a week.
My share options are more valuable by the day. :)
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I wonder how big business across the EU feels about potentially being denied access to the world's biggest financial centre and whether the political project is worth the price once their banking costs inevitably rise when and if the EU pull up the drawbridge. ::)
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It seems that the pragmatic German businesses are increasingly concerned to the point of panic, about the vanity of politicians damaging their prospects in the UK. Some think that applying pressure to allow us border controls might do the trick. Its gone way past that point now though. If they had done it 2 or 3 years ago, it might have worked.
Even some german politicians are starting to go off message.
http://www.westmonster.com/german-business-leaders-push-to-stop-brexit/
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/882335/Brexit-News-Germany-European-Union-MEP-EU-News-Michel-Barnier-Brexit-Divorce-Bill-UK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/20/stop-brexit-happening-german-business-leaders-tell-eu/
I believe the problem the EU has is that it knows that in reality there is very little wriggle room between single market membership and operating under WTO rules, from the UK point of view. This makes it very difficult for them to give us a deal which is less favourable than the single market, while being worse than us just leaving and reverting to WTO rules.
The only way around that for them is to do some serious spinning, and get the UK opposition to join in with their illusion.
In that respect they have been successful and it looks like it has netted them £40 billion.
It may still be the case that they are so petrified of having to give us a deal which wont be able to stop us from doing ok, that they will actually force the no deal option, and hope the furore this causes in the UK will bring down the Govt. allow Corbyn into power, and then they can "negotiate" with him. :-\
Time will tell.
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Well said,
Rods Albs. ;D
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Could Mr Rods and Mr Nickbat be one and the same?
Nah....just kidding. ;)
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I suspect EU big business will allow the Brussels technocrats blather on about their fundamental principals and how there's no reverse gear, how we can't order a round then leave the pub, etc.. right down to the wire, then they will apply serious pressure on governments on both sides of the channel for a compromise and something will be sorted out pretty much in spite of the EU.
Having such an inept government, and an equally clueless opposition, is doing us no favours at all, however. ::)
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Why don,t our weak and ineffective government just tell Barnier that he,s getting nowt and be done with it. ;)
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Why don,t our weak and ineffective government just tell Barnier that he,s getting nowt and be done with it. ;)
Because the one universal truth about politicians is that they are all self serving roaches.
There are enough brexit sceptic Conservative MPs that to walk away now would trigger the breakdown of Weak n Wobbly's government, they've also been so ineffectual since may that it would trigger an election they couldn't be certain of winning. Particularly as they would likely be leaderless at that point.
So, we go through the motions.
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Why don,t our weak and ineffective government just tell Barnier that he,s getting nowt and be done with it. ;)
Because the one universal truth about politicians is that they are all self serving roaches.
There are enough brexit sceptic Conservative MPs that to walk away now would trigger the breakdown of Weak n Wobbly's government, they've also been so ineffectual since may that it would trigger an election they couldn't be certain of winning. Particularly as they would likely be leaderless at that point.
So, we go through the motions.
A bit like a plumber clearing a manhole?
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;D
Stemo, have a gold star!
I was hoping someone would go with "swimming on Blackpool beach". But close enough! :y
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Ploughing through all the shite is what it must feel like when negotiating with Barnier and Co. Don’t think I’d last five minutes with them, but at least we’d be out in no time ;D
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Well we have found more money. I wonder just where HM gov will find the astronomical figure (whatever it actually is).
I signed a petition today for just walk away.
I also would like to know if in the event of a no deal, does the Uk still have to pay that money?
I also had to smile , only today Hungary has used up all of its so many year EU development grants (we , the citizens' money) and wants another 5 billion euros. Where is that going to come from? the EU money tree? :o
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I will be happy enough if they sign up to a huge amount of money, to be paid in relatively small instalments over a very long period of time.
The whole thing is bound to fall apart in the not too distant future, so we would end up paying three fifths of far call. :)
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If Hungary decided to leave the EU, would the EU honour all of it's commitments and carry on paying them for X amount of years? ::)
Or would they just say "Bye then!" :-\ ;D
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Yes of course.