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[Sir Tigger KC]

Uber have lost their licence to operate in London after TfL decided the company were not fit and proper on security and safety grounds.  This decision will affect the livelihoods of some 40,000 drivers.

Obviously the black cabbies are delighted, but have TfL made the right decision for the right reasons?  Or is it a case of good old fashioned protectionism? 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-41358640

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I can only assume the cab drivers association bunged the relevant people more dosh than Uber did.
Or a focus group told Sadiq Khan that this option was worth more votes.

[2boxerdogs]

Good ,lot of mates in the city who were & are black cab drivers pleased for them.

[Rods2]

#vestedInterests&Luddites 1 #cheapTransportProgress 0 Pretty standard vested interests excuses by TfL given.

The vested interests have won this round, but I suspect that the courts or Parliament will have the final say.

This is only an opening round in the transport progress disruption, by 2025 there will be no Black Cab drivers as driverless vehicles including taxis don't need them.

[zirk]

Good, Uber needed a good kick up the arse, there not playing by the rules, theres been ongoing reports of rape and sexual abuse by some of there drivers, complaints by the Police over some of the Drivers activities and reports and complaints that have not been followed up correctly by Uber, they pay the drivers pittance, there out there to try and rid all the local compitition outside of the London Boroughs where they shoudn't be operating in the first place, they employ and strike there drivers off without reason and with no driver resolution, Uber's profits go Off Shore with min Tax involvement, there a joke.

The only people that will lose out will be the majority of the honest hard working Drivers trying to make a half decent wage working for this outfit.

[2boxerdogs]

Good, Uber needed a good kick up the arse, there not playing by the rules, theres been ongoing reports of rape and sexual abuse by some of there drivers, complaints by the Police over some of the Drivers activities and reports and complaints that have not been followed up correctly by Uber, they pay the drivers pittance, there out there to try and rid all the local compitition outside of the London Boroughs where they shoudn't be operating in the first place, they employ and strike there drivers off without reason and with no driver resolution, Uber's profits go Off Shore with min Tax involvement, there a joke.

The only people that will lose out will be the majority of the honest hard working Drivers trying to make a half decent wage working for this outfit.

     






Well said , the hoops my mates have to jump through to keep their black cab licences & these cowboys think they can just take over.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

The decision could be connected to the fact that the black cab drivers union donated £30,000 to Khans election campaign. 
Imo, competition is a good thing, but Uber play by a different set of rules to everyone else, so the competition isn't fair, and allows the problems about their drivers to occur.
I think their licence should be suspended until they come up with a decent plan to run their business to the same standards as the black cabs run theirs. Then they should be allowed to carry on, if they think they can still make a profit.

[biggriffin]

Glad uber, have been fooked off,  using illegal drivers, with no checks, no licence's, dodging tax's and that's just the drivers.

[Gaffers]

Do not underestimate the black cab lobbying power or their links to momentum.

[Doctor Gollum]

The decision could be connected to the fact that the black cab drivers union donated £30,000 to Khans election campaign. 
Imo, competition is a good thing, but Uber play by a different set of rules to everyone else, so the competition isn't fair, and allows the problems about their drivers to occur.
I think their licence should be suspended until they come up with a decent plan to run their business to the same standards as the black cabs run theirs. Then they should be allowed to carry on, if they think they can still make a profit.

I would never use a black cab in London. Not sure I would use uber either tbh.

[Gaffers]

The decision could be connected to the fact that the black cab drivers union donated £30,000 to Khans election campaign. 
Imo, competition is a good thing, but Uber play by a different set of rules to everyone else, so the competition isn't fair, and allows the problems about their drivers to occur.
I think their licence should be suspended until they come up with a decent plan to run their business to the same standards as the black cabs run theirs. Then they should be allowed to carry on, if they think they can still make a profit.

I would never use a black cab in London. Not sure I would use uber either tbh.

I use uber a fair bit. It's fast, convenient and reliable. I have never had an uber drive past and refuse a pickup because I didn't look like a decent tipper, or arrive late despite being prebooked well in advance.

Some people are too set in their ways or too far invested in maintaining the status quo/monopoly to let market forces do what they do best and cut out the chaff.

[Doctor Gollum]

Addison Lee would be my prefered choice.

Black cabs are licenced to rip you off... the driver has free choice over any metered route regardless of distance*.

This is utterly contrary to Hackney carriage licensing outside of metropolitan London where the driver must know,and use the shortest distance for any metered journey... any agreed fare must be less than or equal to the metered shortest routed. Applying the Uber model to TfL licenced taxis would make them more efficient and protect customers from over charging. In its current guise, as a hailing service using private hire drivers, uber circumvents alot of the licensing regulations.

Although several councils now seem to be addressing this issue by obliging Uber to establish local hubs using locally registered and licenced drivers... without applying it is difficult to see whether the Operators licences are held by Uber or if the drivers must have their own If the former, then Uber are embracing their legal responsibility for their customers and drivers... if the latter, then it's all on the drivers, in which case the drivers have no protection from Uber and their terms and conditions or charges...

*Private Hire fares are different in this regard as they must simply be pre advised/agreed at the time of booking if no meter is used.

[Rods2]

All disruptive new technologies create change and normally boost efficiency and reduce costs. It is interesting that there have been over 500,000 petition signatories on change.org in 24 hours protesting the suspension of Uber. Apparently, it is a much-preferred method of transport by many women where the journey can be tracked by family etc and they find black cabs late at night not available and/or too expensive, waiting at bus stops, using buses and tube means running the gauntlet of drunks etc.

I don't think Tfl have expected this backlash and the next 3 weeks are going to be interesting, especially if Uber call for a judicial review.

Any shortcomings are as usual the fault of lazy politicians where they don't set the rules and conditions for passengers and drivers so all are sufficiently protected. Never forget that politicians set the rules, conditions and enforcement that all businesses have to comply with, the exception being IME when the government or local authorities employ people and operate services.

[zirk]

All disruptive new technologies create change and normally boost efficiency and reduce costs. It is interesting that there have been over 500,000 petition signatories on change.org in 24 hours protesting the suspension of Uber. Apparently, it is a much-preferred method of transport by many women where the journey can be tracked by family etc and they find black cabs late at night not available and/or too expensive, waiting at bus stops, using buses and tube means running the gauntlet of drunks etc.
.

Well, all I can say is Addison Lee seem to have managed it.

[Sir Tigger KC]

I've only used Uber once when I was with a mate who uses it a lot.  We were going to the pub, he ordered the cab on the app and then tracked it as it made it's way to us while we waited in the warm and dry.  We went out just as it pulled up outside his house. 

It seems like a great service to me, but if they arn't able or willing to comply with regulations then it's only right that they lose their licence. 

[tunnie]

I've only used Uber once when I was with a mate who uses it a lot.  We were going to the pub, he ordered the cab on the app and then tracked it as it made it's way to us while we waited in the warm and dry.  We went out just as it pulled up outside his house. 

It seems like a great service to me, but if they arn't able or willing to comply with regulations then it's only right that they lose their licence. 

Even better when you all have the app, you can split the fair. Cheap travel 

[Sir Tigger KC]

I've only used Uber once when I was with a mate who uses it a lot.  We were going to the pub, he ordered the cab on the app and then tracked it as it made it's way to us while we waited in the warm and dry.  We went out just as it pulled up outside his house. 

It seems like a great service to me, but if they arn't able or willing to comply with regulations then it's only right that they lose their licence. 

Even better when you all have the app, you can split the fair. Cheap travel 

Even better when you don't have the app and your mate pays! 

[tunnie]

True 

[TD]

Addison Lee would be my prefered choice.

Black cabs are licenced to rip you off... the driver has free choice over any metered route regardless of distance*.

This is utterly contrary to Hackney carriage licensing outside of metropolitan London where the driver must know,and use the shortest distance for any metered journey... any agreed fare must be less than or equal to the metered shortest routed. Applying the Uber model to TfL licenced taxis would make them more efficient and protect customers from over charging. In its current guise, as a hailing service using private hire drivers, uber circumvents alot of the licensing regulations.

Although several councils now seem to be addressing this issue by obliging Uber to establish local hubs using locally registered and licenced drivers... without applying it is difficult to see whether the Operators licences are held by Uber or if the drivers must have their own If the former, then Uber are embracing their legal responsibility for their customers and drivers... if the latter, then it's all on the drivers, in which case the drivers have no protection from Uber and their terms and conditions or charges...

*Private Hire fares are different in this regard as they must simply be pre advised/agreed at the time of booking if no meter is used.

Only if the customer asks how much the fare will be.....otherwise the PH driver charges dependant on mileage done....especially if the customer asks to go a certain route, which may be a quick route, but not always the shortest. 

[Rods2]

I've only used Uber once when I was with a mate who uses it a lot.  We were going to the pub, he ordered the cab on the app and then tracked it as it made it's way to us while we waited in the warm and dry.  We went out just as it pulled up outside his house. 

It seems like a great service to me, but if they arn't able or willing to comply with regulations then it's only right that they lose their licence. 

Now I don't know if this is true or not, but the reply from Fred Jones head of Uber cities, in the BBC article below, implies that Uber submits the driver paperwork to Tfl and then Tfl do all the driver checks for Uber?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41369617

The Mayor of London's reply also seems odd in trying to off-lay the situation onto Uber, I suspect this story is going to have a lot of legs over the next 3 weeks and it is going to be interesting to see where (and I have my suspicions) the fan is directed and the brown stuff lands?

[Doctor Gollum]

All disruptive new technologies create change and normally boost efficiency and reduce costs. It is interesting that there have been over 500,000 petition signatories on change.org in 24 hours protesting the suspension of Uber. Apparently, it is a much-preferred method of transport by many women where the journey can be tracked by family etc and they find black cabs late at night not available and/or too expensive, waiting at bus stops, using buses and tube means running the gauntlet of drunks etc.
.

Well, all I can say is Addison Lee seem to have managed it.

Exactly and very well too.

[TD]

I've only used Uber once when I was with a mate who uses it a lot.  We were going to the pub, he ordered the cab on the app and then tracked it as it made it's way to us while we waited in the warm and dry.  We went out just as it pulled up outside his house. 

It seems like a great service to me, but if they arn't able or willing to comply with regulations then it's only right that they lose their licence. 

Now I don't know if this is true or not, but the reply from Fred Jones head of Uber cities, in the BBC article below, implies that Uber submits the driver paperwork to Tfl and then Tfl do all the driver checks for Uber?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41369617

The Mayor of London's reply also seems odd in trying to off-lay the situation onto Uber, I suspect this story is going to have a lot of legs over the next 3 weeks and it is going to be interesting to see where (and I have my suspicions) the fan is directed and the brown stuff lands?

That's certainly how it works in Swindon, except I submit the paperwork to the council, which costs me £70/yr plus every three years I have to pay £50 for a CRB check and being over 50 I also have pay around £80 for a private medical every 3 years which will increase to yearly the older I get. If I pass the council then issue me with a licence which is two part. One part being a paper copy which I have to submit to the firm I'm working for. The other for display in my cab. So, yes the council do all the checks before issuing a licence. The PH firm don't do any checks.....except check you have a licence. Which is the same as Uber I believe.....

[Doctor Gollum]

Uber were using their own firm, presumably for cost reasons... Now all TfL regulated operators and drivers are vetted by TfLs nominated CRB company, as it should be

[STEMO]

Uber were using their own firm, presumably for cost reasons... Now all TfL regulated operators and drivers are vetted by TfLs nominated CRB company, as it should be

DBS now.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Uber are a typical 'race to the bottom' company.

They make billions but pay virtually no tax. They pay their drivers a pittance with a very poor record on holiday and sickness pay.

Little wonder they have so many oddballs working for them.

[Rods2]

Interesting point: if a London based company made 40,000 people redundant on 21 days notice, do you think Liebour, especially at their conference would deem that as okay and not worthy of comment? So why do they think it is acceptable to potentially put 40,000 self-employed people out of work?

I see the Mayor of London is squealing that Uber is being aggressive and horrible to him by threatening court action, well what did he expect? Personally, I think he has done this as a grandstanding act just before the Liebour party conference and he is going to come badly unstuck. Uber should be calling for a judicial review with it being a full public hearing so we can all see, for transparency sake, the decision making processes. I suspect this would cause some sleepless nights for some of the officials.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Interesting point: if a London based company made 40,000 people redundant on 21 days notice, do you think Liebour, especially at their conference would deem that as okay and not worthy of comment? So why do they think it is acceptable to potentially put 40,000 self-employed people out of work?

I see the Mayor of London is squealing that Uber is being aggressive and horrible to him by threatening court action, well what did he expect? Personally, I think he has done this as a grandstanding act just before the Liebour party conference and he is going to come badly unstuck. Uber should be calling for a judicial review with it being a full public hearing so we can all see, for transparency sake, the decision making processes. I suspect this would cause some sleepless nights for some of the officials.

Uber may employ twenty first century technology but they don't give workers twenty first century rights.

They have a Victorian 'fuc**k you attitude' toward people who work for them.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

The drivers are self employed.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

The drivers are self employed.

....which means Uber don't need to be a responsible employer.

[Rods2]

Uber are a typical 'race to the bottom' company.

They make billions but pay virtually no tax. They pay their drivers a pittance with a very poor record on holiday and sickness pay.

Little wonder they have so many oddballs working for them.

Nobody is forced to work for them. Many of the drivers use it as top-up income where they don't make enough in other jobs. It is also apparently popular with people with other self-employed jobs which are not full-time.

Providing what they do is legal, then it is up to our very lazy politicians to legislate if they don't like it, but I think you will find what they earn is rather more per hour than the £1.60ph job seekers allowance, if they are eligible, or £0ph if they are not.

The problem is that Liebour encouraged 2m unskilled people to come to the UK, so we have a glut, which has driven down unskilled wages and working conditions across ALL sectors. Brexit should gradually fix this, providing we only allow people into the UK if they are filling an unfilled skilled job vacancy. So put the blame where it belongs on Liebour and their voters with their contempt and abandonment of the semi-skilled and unskilled working class. Liebour is only interested in their own, the smug hard-left degree level London set and when it suits them also minorities.

[zirk]

There Self Employed but working Under Instructions from Uber, if they work for Uber Full Time then there is a case that they could be technically Employed.

This Technically Employed vs Self Employed / Freelance / Contractor / Sub Contractors malarkey debate has been going on for years across many Industries, but as being Self Employed working under Ubers Instructions then Uber has at the very least the responsibility to ensure that they can earn the Minimum Wage, which my understanding is only achievable if your prepared to work 50+ Hours a week on a regular basis.

[Rods2]

The very nature of many self-employed doing piece work by pricing per job makes enforcing of a minimum wage virtually impossible. The key is for wages to rise by restricting unskilled migration, we don't need them. It is also bad for income tax rates in general as minimum wage workers are usually subsidised by the rest of the tax-paying workforce.

The problem with having onerous restrictions on employment and self-employment is that you end up with average mainland EU levels of unemployment of 10% plus for over 21's and 25% plus for under 21's.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Very true.  .............and all the problems we have which are associated with this have just been extended by at least two more years. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Very true.  .............and all the problems we have which are associated with this have just been extended by at least two more years. 

......and probably a lot longer if things don't go to plan.

You may actually drop off the perch before we (properly) leave the EU.

[Doctor Gollum]

Uber are a typical 'race to the bottom' company.

They make billions but pay virtually no tax. They pay their drivers a pittance with a very poor record on holiday and sickness pay.

Little wonder they have so many oddballs working for them.

The drivers are all self employed and pay a commission for the work they receive...

Last time I looked, self employed people don't get paid holidays or sick pay... actually, sick pay is  rare comodity anywhere in the real world.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Uber are a typical 'race to the bottom' company.

They make billions but pay virtually no tax. They pay their drivers a pittance with a very poor record on holiday and sickness pay.

Little wonder they have so many oddballs working for them.

The drivers are all self employed and pay a commission for the work they receive...

Last time I looked, self employed people don't get paid holidays or sick pay... actually, sick pay is  rare comodity anywhere in the real world.

When I was a lorryist I was a self employed agency worker and it was great.  I could work as much or as little as I liked and all they asked was that I let them know my availability a week in advance.  This allowed me to get on with other self employed ventures with the security of a fall back plan!    Of course I didn't get holiday or sick pay, nor was there any pension provision, but I went into it with my eyes wide open! 

On the flip side, I once worked as a self employed Sales Rep, which turned out to be a nightmare when they expected me to work 24/7!    I quit after 2 weeks when I told them I needed a day off and they said I couldn't have one.  I told them to Go Forth!    and then had to battle them for the money they owed me, which nearly ended up in court. 

[Lizzie Zoom]

Today Uber chief executive Dara Khosrowshahi said he was sorry for the "mistakes we've made" after the taxi-hailing firm lost its London licence.  He added we must put things right.

So much for Uber doing no wrong!

[TD]

Today Uber chief executive Dara Khosrowshahi said he was sorry for the "mistakes we've made" after the taxi-hailing firm lost its London licence.  He added we must put things right.

So much for Uber doing no wrong!

Id like to know what they have done wrong as its unclear to me....

If they employ TFL certified drivers, which I believe they do (If you go on Ubers website and click the link to join Uber as a driver one of the first things it asks, is do you have a PH licence....

What the drivers get paid is irrelevant......its the drivers choice....if they have crap driver relations...then again its upto the driver....go work for another PH firm if not happy...

[Rods2]

Today Uber chief executive Dara Khosrowshahi said he was sorry for the "mistakes we've made" after the taxi-hailing firm lost its London licence.  He added we must put things right.

So much for Uber doing no wrong!

If you've ever been taken somebody to court over a major contract, you jump through the hoops your solicitor/barrister/QC tells you to seal off any possible off-ramps for the defendant. As it is highly likely this will go legal I shall reserve judgment on the motivation here, but hopefully, the case will be in public so we know the reasons and motivations on what is happening.