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Author Topic: Ultra rich tax avoidance  (Read 644 times)

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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #30 on: 08 November 2017, 12:29:01 »

I have no problem with it, anyone in same situation would do similar. Why give the government more for is to be wasted? If you have that much, you've worked hard graft for it. (Generally)

Try paying no tax, Mr Tunnie.
 ::) ::) ;)
I very much doubt HMRC will be as 'reasonable and understanding' as they are when arse-licking the super rich.

The point being that you, I, and everyone else on this forum would never to able to get away with it. ;)

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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #31 on: 08 November 2017, 12:32:02 »

When Opti said "rich", I don't think he had £54,000 in mind.
When he said "super rich", I don't think he had £164,000 in mind, either.

I mean, my income is significantly over £54,000 (apologies for being crass) but I wouldn't consider myself "rich", and yet the tax man still brutally rapes me every year without lube because I'm (most likely) considered one of the "scum" high earners by that middle bracket.

'Fookin ell' Aaron. They usually send me a nasty letter first. :)
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #32 on: 08 November 2017, 13:16:12 »

If you were to own a £3.3 million pound jet/superyacht/Caribbean beach chalet... then you would probably rent them out when you don't want to use them in order to cover costs...

If you do this as a private individual then you would pay tax on any income... However, if you set up a company by which you manage your assets/investments/toys then everything becomes an operating cost and therefore deductible except for the two weeks of the year you actually use them.

If you or your accountant is switched on, then you pay your company for the time you use the item, effectively paying yourself for the privilege of use.

In the jet example, A N Other racing driver probably pays a charter cost to his company for the use of the jet which is probably operated by a company that he is the only shareholder. He, being self employed, is probably also legitimately able to write off the charter costs as business expenses in order to get to and from work... effectively making the jet 'free'.

Given a certain level of cash flow, the super rich lifestyle actually costs alot less than you might think...

Mere mortals can just as freely apply this way of thinking to our lives, but the scale of the savings may not make it viable.

If you can get your employer to change your contract to one of a self employed consultant, renewable on say a five-year basis, for the same gross salary, then all your work related expenses such as clothes, travel, meals at work, office space in your house (with a proportion of your mortgage/rent, utilities etc) all get off set against your income tax... Hell, whilst your at it, set the house up as a B and B... (nothing to say you actually have to have paying guests...) and claim the entire cost of the property against your business.

OK you have to file a tax return every year, and it might not save enough to be worth the hassle, but the principle is the same as if you have millions in the (offshore) bank.

By way of example, if I were to do this, then my annual tax liability might drop to around £600 if I had a second car for private use. A saving of around £1,800...

Food for thought...
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Sir Tigger QC

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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #33 on: 08 November 2017, 13:57:10 »

Strange thing that when ever this Off Shore business gets dragged up, the hard nosed investigative journalists at the Guardian and BBC never seem to point the finger at wealthy people like Blair or Mandelson.  Wonder why?  ::)
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #34 on: 08 November 2017, 14:02:09 »

Strange thing that when ever this Off Shore business gets dragged up, the hard nosed investigative journalists at the Guardian and BBC never seem to point the finger at wealthy people like Blair or Mandelson.  Wonder why?  ::)

I wouldn't trust Blair as far I could throw him.

.......and as for that poofter Mandelson. :)
« Last Edit: 08 November 2017, 14:04:54 by Field Marshal Dr. Opti »
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #35 on: 08 November 2017, 14:05:11 »

Strange thing that when ever this Off Shore business gets dragged up, the hard nosed investigative journalists at the Guardian and BBC never seem to point the finger at wealthy people like Blair or Mandelson.  Wonder why?  ::)

They are obviously squeaky clean. ::)
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LC0112G

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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #36 on: 08 November 2017, 14:39:51 »

Hang about, guvnor, thatís 128%.  ;D

When TB gets to be PM and starts implementing the cull list, someone remind him not to appoint Stemo as Chancellor.

I assume you realise that the top 1% are by definition also part of the top 10% too? Ok it still comes to 101%, but that's due to me rounding the figures for the hard of understanding. The figures, to one decimal place are in the IFS report.

When Opti said "rich", I don't think he had £54,000 in mind.
When he said "super rich", I don't think he had £164,000 in mind, either.

Which is why I said you need to define what you mean by 'working poor', and the same applies to rich and super rich. There are apparently about 50K people that earn over £1M a year in the UK - are they super rich, or merely rich? Either way if you tax them at 47% (45% income tax and 2% NI) then they'd pay at least £470K a year each. £470K buys you a lot of financial advice and makes it relatively attractive to live somewhere else if you get fed up with what your current govt is taking from you. 

How much tax do you think Bill Gates, or Barak Obama, or Elvis Presleys' estate pays in the UK? I'll guess that they're all close to (if not actually) zero.  If it's Ok for them to not pay UK tax then why should anyone else not resident in the UK have to pay tax on income not earned here? Lewis Hamilton is domiciled in Monaco AIUI just like lots of other rich people. The reason is pretty simple - they can save more tax by living there than it costs to actually live there. LH only really needs to visit the UK for perhaps 4 days a year - the Silverstone Weekend - the same time as all the other F1 drivers. So I'm not sure why he's been singled out. Loads of other private jets are registered in the IOM. Clamp down on that and they'll just move registration to somewhere else.
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jimmy944

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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #37 on: 08 November 2017, 15:40:06 »

If you can get your employer to change your contract to one of a self employed consultant, renewable on say a five-year basis, for the same gross salary, then all your work related expenses such as clothes, travel, meals at work, office space in your house (with a proportion of your mortgage/rent, utilities etc) all get off set against your income tax... Hell, whilst your at it, set the house up as a B and B... (nothing to say you actually have to have paying guests...) and claim the entire cost of the property against your business.

OK you have to file a tax return every year, and it might not save enough to be worth the hassle, but the principle is the same as if you have millions in the (offshore) bank.

By way of example, if I were to do this, then my annual tax liability might drop to around £600 if I had a second car for private use. A saving of around £1,800...

Food for thought...

But even this opportunity is closed to most mere mortals, as HMRC have closed the "loophole"  by way of IR35 legislation. This basically says that, even if you declare yourself a self-employed contractor, and your chosen company agrees, HMRC can "deem you employed" and tax you accordingly. You can be deemed employed if your working arrangements meet some/all of the criteria of employment. For example:

- You have set working hours
- You have a pre-defined/fixed work location/pattern of locations
- You have no right to substitute yourself for another person to carry out your duties
- You only have a commercial arrangement with one entity which provides you with all your income.
- Some more things I can't think of atm...

If HMRC "deem" you employed, the re-calculate your tax, plus any penalties and interest and then you have to fight them to convince them you are actually self-employed. SWMBO's tax accountant gets her to fill out an annual IR35 questionnaire to get comfort that she isn't caught by it.

On a separate note of caution, making a house a B&B makes it a business asset and can make you liable for Capital Gains Tax on sale. Could be painful!  :o
« Last Edit: 08 November 2017, 15:42:18 by jimmy944 »
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Migv6

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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #38 on: 08 November 2017, 17:13:36 »

Most of the people classed as "talent" employed by the BBC (for example) seem to have found a way around all of the above.
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jimmy944

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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #39 on: 08 November 2017, 19:48:35 »

Company to company payments are outside the scope of IR35. You'll probably find that Chris Evans Ltd. was paid rather well last year, but the ginger one himself probably didn't get a penny from aunty beeb.  ;D
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #40 on: 08 November 2017, 19:50:00 »

You could arguably have a contract with your children whereby you pay them pocket money, say £20 per week, and have them then pay you £5 a week for parental services... Given you are a parent 24/7, you could argue that they are your primary employer... ::) The B&B could be a third employer...

Either way the hassle and savings aren't necessarily worth it at this end of the food chain, but when your weekly income is into 5 figures, then the savings are very much worthwhile...
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Migv6

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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #41 on: 08 November 2017, 20:33:03 »

The Mail reported yesterday that Labours London HQ is rented from a company registered in the channel islands, and John McDonnell receives a pension from former work for a council, which comes from a company in the Channel islands.
Made my day.  ;D ;D
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Migv6

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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #42 on: 08 November 2017, 20:33:57 »

Company to company payments are outside the scope of IR35. You'll probably find that Chris Evans Ltd. was paid rather well last year, but the ginger one himself probably didn't get a penny from aunty beeb.  ;D

So that's the loophole which loops around the closed loophole.  :)
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Sir Tigger QC

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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #43 on: 08 November 2017, 23:26:02 »

The Mail reported yesterday that Labours London HQ is rented from a company registered in the channel islands, and John McDonnell receives a pension from former work for a council, which comes from a company in the Channel islands.
Made my day.  ;D ;D

I didn't see that on the BBC or the Guardian.....  :-\                                   ::)  ;D
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Re: Ultra rich tax avoidance
« Reply #44 on: 09 November 2017, 17:03:51 »

Strange thing that when ever this Off Shore business gets dragged up, the hard nosed investigative journalists at the Guardian and BBC never seem to point the finger at wealthy people like Blair or Mandelson.  Wonder why?  ::)

I wouldn't trust Blair as far I could throw him.

.......and as for that poofter Mandelson. :)

This Peter Cook "Biased Judge" satire about the Jeremy Thorp case reminds me of "the self-inflicted player of the pink oboe" on your list.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZdaQQBZ3as
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