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Author Topic: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay  (Read 1132 times)

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jimmy944

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #15 on: 11 November 2017, 14:04:22 »

Problem is that any "deal" with the US will be a total shafting. Hormones and carcinogenic chemicals in our food, unfettered access to our NHS for the drug companies etc etc.

The problem with "taking back control" is that we are handing that control to May et al who are firmly out for themselves, and the fact that my newly imported American steak is going to shrink my balls and give me a cracking pair of knockers is of no concern to them.  ;D
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Sir Tigger QC

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #16 on: 11 November 2017, 14:14:26 »

Problem is that any "deal" with the US will be a total shafting. Hormones and carcinogenic chemicals in our food, unfettered access to our NHS for the drug companies etc etc.

The problem with "taking back control" is that we are handing that control to May et al who are firmly out for themselves, and the fact that my newly imported American steak is going to shrink my balls and give me a cracking pair of knockers is of no concern to them.  ;D

Yay Jimmy's got his tin foil helmet out again!  ;D  :y
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #17 on: 11 November 2017, 14:36:27 »

Sorry but I cant see any other outcome than no deal.
Which was always going to be the case, or we'd be taken to the cleaners.  On top of that, the EU cannot allow a deal.

Some of the Farage brigade refuse to accept we are an insignificant rock, and we need Europe far more than we need them...  ...and that's the whole point of trading groups, whether private businesses or countries - it allows minnows the same access and deals as the big boys (and deep down, we all know we are insignificant).


So, due to unfortunate timing, we're all Donald Ducked.


...............and once again my opening to quote Lord Tennyson:

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
  Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
  Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
  Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
  Rode the six hundred."


That is where we are heading!! >:(
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Migv6

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #18 on: 11 November 2017, 14:55:40 »

Balderdash ! If anything the undemocratic, protectionist, wannabe empire, aka the EU is heading there.
Even the biggest, strongest, most dominant empires collapse in the end. As a historian that should be a given for you.
In 15 -20 years it will be gone, leaving a trail of chaos and poverty across Europe, and the accepted wisdom will be that leaving when we did was the best decision this country has taken for a very long time.
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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #19 on: 11 November 2017, 15:05:39 »

Problem is that any "deal" with the US will be a total shafting. Hormones and carcinogenic chemicals in our food, unfettered access to our NHS for the drug companies etc etc.

The problem with "taking back control" is that we are handing that control to May et al who are firmly out for themselves, and the fact that my newly imported American steak is going to shrink my balls and give me a cracking pair of knockers is of no concern to them.  ;D

I share your concerns. The chlorine washed chicken(to extend its dubious life) is well documented. Surely trade deals can be struck that exclude such items? Are we saying now that no one in Uk buys from the Us or vice versa? No. So it just needs proper negotiation.

As for the Conservatives being out for themselves and their cronies, that is true whether we are in the EU or not. There is much documented evidence of Eu cronies lining their nests on the back of (our) EU money. So nothing new either side of the channel. I am not advocating Labour but the answer is via the ballot box. We reap what we sew. Clock is ticking on Theresa May. 7 months now.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #20 on: 11 November 2017, 15:35:44 »

Balderdash ! If anything the undemocratic, protectionist, wannabe empire, aka the EU is heading there.
Even the biggest, strongest, most dominant empires collapse in the end. As a historian that should be a given for you.
In 15 -20 years it will be gone, leaving a trail of chaos and poverty across Europe, and the accepted wisdom will be that leaving when we did was the best decision this country has taken for a very long time.

The EU is not a traditional "empire" and history has taught us that separate country nationalism is what we should fear.  Once a country breaks away from a group, generating it's feeling of "greatness" over all others, the risks of eventual conflict increase significantly.  With North Korea ignoring it's partner, China, and the United States of America as the World power feeling obliged to stop the "evil empire" outside of any form of "club" (forget the toothless UN)  they feel no compunction to resort to proper diplomacy, just as Hitler treated that as a joke during the Munich crisis.

We in the UK should all do what we can to unite the world not blow it apart.  The EU is a very useful, but, yes, requiring attention, pact that will stop us going to war with countries within it knowing that nothing is to be gained by that, understanding history as they do, and having a ethnically mixed population.  Within it we could change the policies, but going outside as we are we cannot.  As a single nation outside of the big pacts, we will also not be in a position to diplomatically stop conflict unitedly with the rest of Europe.  We would, as always it seems, be at the beck and call of the USA to use our military for their intentions, or of course face pressure / blackmail towards the prospect of losing any "trade agreements" we have with them.  As TB stated, Europe can survive without us, but we need Europe, and all we are doing currently is showing the World what a pathetic "little Englander" we are, that cannot even negotiate with the EU as any form of major International player.  We are, and always have been since 1956, a bit player on our own, but a force for good alongside the USA, then the EU.  With a declining USA, and us leaving the EU, we are heading for the final decline.

But, of course I am flying in the face of the apparent majority who voted, without fully comprehending the true facts thanks to Cameron, to leave the EU.  So be it.  But I will continue to echo the principles of the Charge of the Light Brigade as a simple correlation of the situation we are now in.  If I am wrong, then fine I will say so when Great Britain is again flying high with massive exports, full, non-zero contract, employment and little in the way of national or personal debt.  But at the moment, bearing in mind history, I just cannot visualise it. :( :(
« Last Edit: 11 November 2017, 15:37:27 by Lizzie Zoom »
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ronnyd

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #21 on: 11 November 2017, 16:00:05 »

Isn,t it, when all is said and done, just a poem. Albeit a very good one. To use that as a example of the EU negotiations is a tad simplistic IMHO.
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Varche

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #22 on: 11 November 2017, 16:44:37 »

Balderdash ! If anything the undemocratic, protectionist, wannabe empire, aka the EU is heading there.
Even the biggest, strongest, most dominant empires collapse in the end. As a historian that should be a given for you.
In 15 -20 years it will be gone, leaving a trail of chaos and poverty across Europe, and the accepted wisdom will be that leaving when we did was the best decision this country has taken for a very long time.

The EU is not a traditional "empire" and history has taught us that separate country nationalism is what we should fear.

We in the UK should all do what we can to unite the world not blow it apart.  The EU is a very useful, but, yes, requiring attention, pact that will stop us going to war with countries within it knowing that nothing is to be gained by that, understanding history as they do, and having a ethnically mixed population.  Within it we could change the policies, but going outside as we are we cannot.  As a single nation outside of the big pacts, we will also not be in a position to diplomatically stop conflict unitedly with the rest of Europe.  We would, as always it seems, be at the beck and call of the USA to use our military for their intentions, or of course face pressure / blackmail towards the prospect of losing any "trade agreements" we have with them.  As TB stated, Europe can survive without us, but we need Europe, and all we are doing currently is showing the World what a pathetic "little Englander" we are, that cannot even negotiate with the EU as any form of major International player.  We are, and always have been since 1956, a bit player on our own, but a force for good alongside the USA, then the EU.  With a declining USA, and us leaving the EU, we are heading for the final decline.

But, of course I am flying in the face of the apparent majority who voted, without fully comprehending the true facts thanks to Cameron, to leave the EU.  So be it.  But I will continue to echo the principles of the Charge of the Light Brigade as a simple correlation of the situation we are now in.  If I am wrong, then fine I will say so when Great Britain is again flying high with massive exports, full, non-zero contract, employment and little in the way of national or personal debt.  But at the moment, bearing in mind history, I just cannot visualise it. :( :(

But that has little or nothing to do with being in or out of the EU. That is just a myth.

Massive exports. To do that we need forward thinking governments encouraging appropriate industries where we can be competitive. Nothing to do with being in the EU.

Full, non zero hour contracts. Again , nothing to do with being in the EU. Zero hour contracts or to phrase it more politically correctly " flexible workforce" is again a political construct. You will note that France is up in arms about Macron introducing the same so they are competitive

Full employment. Cannot ever be achieved in a modern day country without resorting to communist style. I think you will find Britain is already pretty well placed compared with many EU countries in terms of high employment rates. have you for example seen Spanish unemployment rates?

national debt. Ah this is down to government too.

Personal debt. Blame that one on the marketing men and also on governments servicing stupidly high debts which are nothing more than Bubbles.

We in the UK should all do what we can to unite the world not blow it apart Fine words but did you denounce our actions in the Falklands war, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Kuwait to name but a few? Like it or not a lot of Britains wealth comes from our military might as showcased in various wars. Taking the argument that we are better off in a combine ( my word) like the Eu in order to avoid having any more wars than countries having and retaining their national ID's , where would it end? One entity and a world government. That would be a fine mess if the "government wasn't benevolent.

Some old arguments that have been well trodden. Change the less than perfect Eu "from within".Good luck with that. Even a blind man can see that it isn't for changing. Rather it is like a crippled sinking ship on full steam with an apprentice crew desperately yanking periodically at the tiller hoping to avoid the next iceberg. 

Fifth or sixth largest economy in the world. A pathetic little Englander.!? I hate that term on so many levels.  Emigrate if you don't like the place - I hear Myanmar is a nice spot with a burgeoning economy. As far as the negotiations are concerned, I am fairly sure I will be proved right that neither party wanted a deal along conventional lines but are just stringing out the bean feast of hotels and meals whilst shuffling papers. As such there will be no deal. The good news is that with imagination and energy from none pathetic little Englanders Britain will be just fine after a few years.

without fully comprehending the true facts Whose fault is that? the government of the day and the EU for that matter. they could have changed in recognition of growing concerns within its member countries but DID NOT. What are the true facts? No one actually knows. Not even well paid economists. Why? Because no one knows what deal we will end up with or even how it will pan out with a no deal. The bottom line was vote remain and stick with the safe option because it isn't really bad but could improve with luck OR get out and make our own way. I have heard nothing to convince me otherwise from leaving and I have much more to lose than most Brits as an expat.
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Sir Tigger QC

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #23 on: 11 November 2017, 17:41:13 »

Problem is that any "deal" with the US will be a total shafting. Hormones and carcinogenic chemicals in our food, unfettered access to our NHS for the drug companies etc etc.

The problem with "taking back control" is that we are handing that control to May et al who are firmly out for themselves, and the fact that my newly imported American steak is going to shrink my balls and give me a cracking pair of knockers is of no concern to them.  ;D

I share your concerns. The chlorine washed chicken(to extend its dubious life) is well documented. Surely trade deals can be struck that exclude such items? Are we saying now that no one in Uk buys from the Us or vice versa? No. So it just needs proper negotiation.

As for the Conservatives being out for themselves and their cronies, that is true whether we are in the EU or not. There is much documented evidence of Eu cronies lining their nests on the back of (our) EU money. So nothing new either side of the channel. I am not advocating Labour but the answer is via the ballot box. We reap what we sew. Clock is ticking on Theresa May. 7 months now.

I don't think that there is any appetite in the country to drop standards to accommodate the Americans and I think the Tories know this and also know that they will be punished at the ballot box if they do.  ;)

As said earlier the USA is our largest single overseas trading partner accounting for 20% of our exports , yet we seem to manage to do this without a trade deal.  So when they do start negotiations it is against that backdrop.  :)  Of course the hard nosed Yanks will try to get the Brits to drop standards in all sorts of areas, but given that the US firms already doing business with us are used to complying with UK/EU standards and given the politics attached, I can't see it happening to be honest.  ;)

By the way, I've eaten steak in the US, I didn't grow tits and my balls are still big!  ;D  Having said that though I don't like the sound of my beef being full of hormones, nor chlorinated chicken although I've certainly eaten it.  ::) I drink chlorinated water, I've swum in chlorinated pools and I'm still here!  :y

At the end of the day why not make sure everything is well labelled and  let the consumer decide?  ??? 

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #24 on: 11 November 2017, 17:48:38 »

Remoaners call all leavers too stupid to grasp the facts and xenophobics, where from day one they have had NO positive arguments for staying in the EU as their are none. The best they could manage was a total made up fabric of lies nicknamed Project Fear, which was called on the 23rd June 2016 and their nest of lies then didn't deliver on the collapse of our economy. In fact, the reverse has happened with our economy booming and unemployment at its lowest level for over a generation. This shows that anything Remoaners say should now be treated for the propaganda that it is. :y :y :y

The overriding reason for leaving is that the EU is a dictatorship, steadily amassing power and becoming more ruthless as they do so. They have already deposed the Greek government and removed the Italian president when they haven't liked what these democratically elected officials were doing. Good luck to any country belonging to the dictatorship if they step out of line once they have an army. >:( >:( >:(

This dictatorship is already having profound effects on mainland European wealth and levels of unemployment. The almost permanent recession in Southern Europe where all economic decisions are made for the German economy's benefit. If it was a democracy and the EU commission was elected then the Southern European countries would force changes through the ballot box, but as a dictatorship, they can't. :( :( :(

With the UK booming after our exit from the EU other countries will be lining up to do the same and reasserting their democracies and courts as the highest level of administration with decisions and laws being made that are most suited to that countries needs. :y :y :y

The UK has a long history of being ahead of the pack and the wise voters did the same on the 23rd June 2016 which will go down in history as our freedom day, when we escaped the ever-growing tyranny of the EU dictatorship. :y :y :y
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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #25 on: 11 November 2017, 18:23:20 »

The Eurocrats were extremely stupid in not recognising that their Gadarene rush towards a Federal Europe was just too rapid, our voters didn't like it, and many other members don't like it. Had they been more sensible, and aimed at federation in, say, 50 years time or so, they might have got away with it, but unfortunately the hubris of the unelected leaders of the EU allowed them to get lost in their own little power bubble, just like many dictators in history. They are now trying to make it as difficult as possible for us to leave in order to encourager les autres.Personally, I think it is a great shame to have come to this pass, but the situation has a certain inevitability about it, and the sooner our politicians start pulling together to get the best deal, or none, and get on with securing our future, the better. :(
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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #26 on: 11 November 2017, 18:54:47 »

The proof, if any was needed, regarding all the infighting in the political parties, is that they are putting their interests above what should be the most important factor. The good of Britain, not the undemocratic EU.
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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #27 on: 11 November 2017, 19:57:39 »

How can you label the worlds 5th largest economy insignificant ?
And one of the worse performing ones.  So, yes, we are insignificant. We had some significance when we were able to trade freely with out biggest trading partner, but we don't want to do that.
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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #28 on: 11 November 2017, 20:13:00 »

We do want to trade freely with them and we will, because they want, and need to trade freely with us.
In the longer term, business will decide this stuff not self serving brainless politicians.
Btw, imo  our economy is performing  better than most other European countries, despite the prophecies of armmagedon if we dared to vote the wrong way.
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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #29 on: 11 November 2017, 20:32:55 »

Quoting Varche:

But that has little or nothing to do with being in or out of the EU. That is just a myth.


We in the UK should all do what we can to unite the world not blow it apart Fine words but did you denounce our actions in the Falklands war, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Kuwait to name but a few? Like it or not a lot of Britains wealth comes from our military might as showcased in various wars.

Fifth or sixth largest economy in the world. A pathetic little Englander.!? I hate that term on so many levels.  Emigrate if you don't like the place

without fully comprehending the true facts Whose fault is that? the government of the day and the EU for that matter. they could have changed in recognition of growing concerns within its member countries but DID NOT. What are the true facts? No one actually knows. Not even well paid economists. Why? Because no one knows what deal we will end up with or even how it will pan out with a no deal. The bottom line was vote remain and stick with the safe option because it isn't really bad but could improve with luck OR get out and make our own way. I have heard nothing to convince me otherwise from leaving and I have much more to lose than most Brits as an expat.
[/quote]


Answers:
I did not say that those issues had a direct bearing on the UK being either in or out of the EU.  I purely mentioned those in the context of a measure of how well, or not, the UK will be doing post Brexit, and how it has affected it's prospects. 

But the trend already is not good:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/nov/02/european-nurses-midwives-leaving-uk-nhs-brexit-vote

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/02/number-eu-nurses-registering-work-britain-falls-90-per-cent/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41838426

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/23/brexit-manufacturers-limiting-investment-due-to-shortage-of-workers

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/13/uk-apple-growers-labour-shortage-brexit

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/food-inflation

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/housebuilders-report-loss-of-skilled-workers-since-brexit-vote-v9t9ttz8c

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/fears-of-brexit-braindrain-grow-as-one-million-eu-nationals-consider-leaving-the-uk-a3621361.html

So, with a looming multi-billion payout to the EU, the above shortage of workers in the health, building and agricultural industries already, with increasing food prices it does not look good.  Yes, industrial output is actually very strong currently, but the future output relies on confidence in the market place, and a healthy, effective, well fed work force. We shall see.

The wars you mention were not world wars, but regional conflicts.  Only The Falklands was a regional conflict involving just the British, and a fine job the military did in stitching together just enough military hardware to do the job without help with the physical job from the USA, although their assistance with intelligence was required.  As for "Britain's wealth" coming from it's military might, well no, that is not true.  In fact both World Wars contributed to the bankrupting of Britain as the country was forced to pour all it's wealth into armaments and the cost of funding war, with that representing between 47% (for 1914-18) and 52% of GDP in 1945. So that "military might" was impressive to look at, but was usually far too expensive to maintain and was frequently found to be obsolete. Only in the 18th and 19th century was Britain's military, along with the East India Trading Company (from 1600 to 1874) assisting in the growth of commercial trade, but the costs of maintaining and policing the Empire were huge, and at the expense of social change at home.  That is why the Empire collapsed in the 20th Century as Britain could no longer afford to maintain a military presence  around the globe; it was far more effective to have trade agreements with distant countries and let them defend themselves.

As for the "little Englander" comment, I do not like it either!  I love my country and will NOT be moving away any time soon!  However, the comment is still relevant: aimed at those amoungst us who only think (and voted for Brexit) of how many immigrants are in the country, how many are "taking their jobs", moan about how many houses are going to be built near to them, and only think of political / or any actions when it affects them, with an attitude of blow everyone else.

As for not comprehending the full facts, well yes, I agree fully with your comments.  As I stated Cameron was to blame for that, with an awful Remain campaign that failed to really mention the facts of the situation, which buffoon Boris and Co., fully exploited. ;) 
« Last Edit: 11 November 2017, 20:41:03 by Lizzie Zoom »
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