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Author Topic: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay  (Read 1133 times)

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Varche

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #30 on: 11 November 2017, 20:58:20 »

Lizzie. My point was how much the uk derives from arms and military kit sales. We are the second biggest arms supplier in the world apparently.

Overall Total 15 billion a year? Bit embarrassing as we sort of have a vested interest in conflict.   :-[

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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #31 on: 11 November 2017, 22:01:17 »

Nothing like a good war to boost the economy  ::)
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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #32 on: 11 November 2017, 23:01:32 »

Lizzie. My point was how much the uk derives from arms and military kit sales. We are the second biggest arms supplier in the world apparently.

Overall Total 15 billion a year? Bit embarrassing as we sort of have a vested interest in conflict.   :-[

A good percentage of that is through joint programs with our closet ally, the US. Where their defense budget is much larger than ours there has been much free technology transfer where we have used many defense standards they have researched and developed free of charge. In many cases, UK defense companies have then won US defense contracts using these standards. They have also spent $60m on upgrading GCHQ under 5-eyes intelligence sharing where they wanted GCHQ to have better equipment for both our benefits. Compare how the US treats us as an ally to how we are treated in Europe, where all they want more of is our money and our subjugation.

Our trade balance with Europe is dreadful where this has been a deliberate policy by the German's, French and EU commission with our quotas reduced in each round of new negotiations where it has generally been 27 countries against the UK. Repatriating fishing, agriculture and industrial policy is going to quickly improve this and it will be felt by all of us with cheaper prices. Germany's deliberate trade surplus means they will gradually own all EU assets. There is no other outcome as buying asset/businesses will be used to balance the trade surplus/deficit book. :( :( :(
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #33 on: 12 November 2017, 10:55:33 »

Quoting Varche:

But that has little or nothing to do with being in or out of the EU. That is just a myth.


We in the UK should all do what we can to unite the world not blow it apart Fine words but did you denounce our actions in the Falklands war, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Kuwait to name but a few? Like it or not a lot of Britains wealth comes from our military might as showcased in various wars.

Fifth or sixth largest economy in the world. A pathetic little Englander.!? I hate that term on so many levels.  Emigrate if you don't like the place

without fully comprehending the true facts Whose fault is that? the government of the day and the EU for that matter. they could have changed in recognition of growing concerns within its member countries but DID NOT. What are the true facts? No one actually knows. Not even well paid economists. Why? Because no one knows what deal we will end up with or even how it will pan out with a no deal. The bottom line was vote remain and stick with the safe option because it isn't really bad but could improve with luck OR get out and make our own way. I have heard nothing to convince me otherwise from leaving and I have much more to lose than most Brits as an expat.


Answers:

The wars you mention were not world wars, but regional conflicts. 


On this Remembrance Sunday of such great importance I want to clarify what I stated above.  In no way did I intend to belittle the Regional Wars, or conflicts as I said.  They WERE wars costing all too many lives, and wrecking the futures of many, many more.  I was trying, clumsily, to distinguish those wars with the two big WORLD Wars, when millions died, and many millions more had their lives shattered forever.

May we remember them :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

My Great Uncle Frank "Wally" Edwards, aged 37, killed on the 30th July 1917 at Ypres

My Grandfather Thomas Freeman, aged 40, killed by a Luftwaffe bomb on the 12th September, 1940

 Please, no more war !!!! :'( :'( :'( :'(

« Last Edit: 12 November 2017, 10:59:24 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Rods2

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #34 on: 12 November 2017, 14:47:47 »

Humans are aggressive territorial animals which mean there will always be wars. :o :o :o

The world is split between democracies and dictators, with dictators starting most wars due to the oppression of their subjects (civil wars) and to the lack of checks on their leader's power so they start wars with their neighbours and other countries they disagree with. :( :( :(

IMO The West's chances of avoiding a war against the axis of evil (Russia, China, Iran and DPRK) in our lifetime is small. The West's politicians don't care they are setting up the next world war through a free pass in gaining the West's most advanced technology by the axis of evil. The US and many European countries are equally guilty of this. China's communist party is as committed as the Russian one of spreading their ideology over the rest of the world. Communism has killed at least 100 million people over the last 100 years and will continue to kill many more. :( :( :(

We already have a 3.5-year-old hot war in Europe, in Ukraine, which is killing on average one brave defender against Putin's invasion every day, since the Minsk II farce ceasefire. There have been over 10,000 Ukrainian troops and civilians killed by Putin's murderous troops and mercenaries. It cannot be considered as anything other than mass murder where there has never been any declaration of war by Russia. Many more 21st-century mass murders will be undeclared wars where they will use elements of the Russian Gerasimov Doctrine. :o :o :o

When your country is attacked by conventional or unconventional means you either defend it or lose. Where Russia declared Cold War 2.0 in 2014 (although it is arguably the invasion of Georgia in 2008) most of the West has failed to respond including the UK. This has allowed Russia to interfere in many elections and referendums with each success making them bolder with the next one. They got their man Yanukovych as president of Ukraine, but his greed, corruption and widespread stealing of businesses and Government wealth lead to the 2014 Revolution of Dignity, which saved the country and restored their democracy. There is evidence that they interfered in the #Brexit one through Cambridge Analitca, Facebook and Twitter bots all of which were a good trial run for the much bigger prize of getting their man in the Whitehouse using the same techniques. By targetting key states they won the electoral college even though Clinton got 3m more votes. Fortunately, Trump is an incompetent idiot, but he is a very dangerous one and it remains to be seen if their Constitution and institutions are strong enough to save their democracy. At best the US is currently examining their options best described by Churchill "You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else". The FBI Robert Mueller investigation and whether the GOP is partisan or bipartisan in their support of Trump where they control both houses in Congress and the results from the November 2018 mid-term elections will be crucial in saving US democracy. If Trump is impeached it will also be the end of the GOP and US politics will change from only two parties. Russian interference in the French election was a failure but they had some success in Germany with their support of AfD. They have had further success in recent Eastern European elections and I expect more in 2018 which will present new challenges to the EU, especially over Islamic refugees where Eastern Europe won't accept EU quotas and this will be exploited by Putin. :( :( :(

It is noticeable that the current generation of Western leaders are post-WWII fighting and experience and their persistent mistakes are empowering our enemies and making a major global conflict much more likely. We are currently in a period of major political and technological disruption with the last one leading to WWI and WWII. Will we do better this time? I'm not sure we will in this nuclear-armed world, hence the doomsday clock being currently so close to midnight. ::) ::) ::)
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #35 on: 12 November 2017, 18:53:42 »

Lizzie. My point was how much the uk derives from arms and military kit sales. We are the second biggest arms supplier in the world apparently.

Overall Total 15 billion a year? Bit embarrassing as we sort of have a vested interest in conflict.   :-[

But again, sorry Varche, it is a no.

"We" the people  gain very little from conflict.  We just end up with the pain, suffering, and grief caused by our wars, as the wealthy, corporate shareholders and ruling class, along with the USA, get the profits.  They always have, and indeed the latter was made rich by both World Wars.

No, we the people also have to pick up the tab of the cost of the wars as our government recoups money through taxation to repay huge loans taken out to fund them.  The British public have only in 2006 finally paid the last 50th installment of £54 million the debt originally £3 billion (£4.8 billion after interest) outstanding to Uncle Sam and Canada from WW2, and, amazingly, only in 2015 paid the last £1.9 billion loan in bonds outstanding  from The Great War, and with a proportion going back to the South Sea Bubble and Waterloo.  However, interestingly after Britain borrowed a total of £7 billion from the USA to fund the Great War, Britain defaulted on it's repayments in 1934 and, allowing for inflation still owes Uncle Sam £40 billion.

So, no, apart from the obvious gains from employment in the armaments industry, the average person in Britain gets no gain from war.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #36 on: 12 November 2017, 19:15:48 »

Humans are aggressive territorial animals which mean there will always be wars. :o :o :o

The world is split between democracies and dictators, with dictators starting most wars due to the oppression of their subjects (civil wars) and to the lack of checks on their leader's power so they start wars with their neighbours and other countries they disagree with. :( :( :(




Well yes, after my time on this earth I have learnt that, and my simple (hopeless) plea for "no more war" was I thought what the vast majority of humans hope for.  They do not wish for war.

Throughout history there has either been power hungry and greedy monarchs, emperors, empire building politicians, dictators, or complete arse hole war lords and nutters, always men (I think without exception) who are prepared to see the commoners killed and injured for personal gain.  The greed of man is such that, as the great philosopher Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679) recognised and I quote:
"                          " No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death; and the life of man,
                             solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.
                             It is not wisdom but Authority that makes a law.
                             The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

Man is simply conditioned to making war, to him peace is purely an interlude, like the sun between showers. Until this condition is cured, by a bloody miracle or the Apocalyptic end predicted by many, then we live with the knowledge of constant war.

In the area of Europe (not the EU!!) we can draw some satisfaction that since we sorted out our previously constant political and imperialistic differences, with democracy in some form or another taking control, we have for 72 years enjoyed peace.  No longer do we feel obliged to fight the French, the Spanish, the Dutch or of course the Germans, and neither do they want to fight us, unless it is at a football match!!

If man had the same emotional feelings as women, who care what happens to the innocents and weak outside of their immediate families, who also never want to see their loved ones lives put at risk, then war would never happen.  If women ruled the world............................but now(in 2017) I am straying into fantasy; maybe in a thousand years, IF we ever as a species get there, we will learn that and see it in practice.

No, war is a reality, but it is a tremendous waste of human blood, sweat, tears, and commodity. :'(


« Last Edit: 12 November 2017, 19:19:43 by Lizzie Zoom »
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jimmy944

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #37 on: 12 November 2017, 19:25:11 »


Yay Jimmy's got his tin foil helmet out again!  ;D  :y

Maybe so, but, the one thing which is incontrovertible, when it comes to UK politicians is that every one of them is politically and personally out for their own ends.

The chlorinated chicken and hormone enhanced beef are well documented, and its also on The Orange One's agenda to get this cr@p onto our tables.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/29/hormonal-beef-chlorine-chicken-could-coming-uk-trade-deal-us/

Once we are out of the EU, whoever the incumbent political party is, will be under immense pressure to do deals with all the nations who the EU were apparently blocking us from trading with. So that we can "forge ahead on the world stage" and do all those other things that 52% of the voters are certain we'll be doing. Add to that a nice slice of pocket lining back-handers and it'll get done.

The US gov't (as an entity) isn't stupid, they know their negotiating position is superior and we will give concessions. I'd be amazed if this isn't one of them, sure there will be some aimless platitudes about "clear labelling" and "offering people a greater variety and choice when it comes to the weekly shop" and all that other gonads. But, as I say, I'll be amazed if the stuff doesn't make it through to us.

As to my expanding mammillae, probably unlikely, and in truth not much research has been done on hormone beef and its effect on humans, however, the only study I could find reference to online didn't make it sound terribly enticing...

Quote
A study published in the November 2011 issue of the journal "The Science of the Total Environment" found that a chemical growth promoter used in cattle may affect growth rates in girls. The compound, called zeranol, is an endocrine disruptor that blocks estrogen, resulting in growth rate abnormalities. In the study, 78.5 percent of the girls had measurable levels of zeranol. These girls were shorter, on average, and showed slower rates of breast development than girls with no detectable levels of the chemical. Researchers called for larger, more diverse studies to further clarify their results.
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Varche

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #38 on: 12 November 2017, 19:39:38 »

Lizzie. My point was how much the uk derives from arms and military kit sales. We are the second biggest arms supplier in the world apparently.

Overall Total 15 billion a year? Bit embarrassing as we sort of have a vested interest in conflict.   :-[

But again, sorry Varche, it is a no.

"We" the people  gain very little from conflict.  We just end up with the pain, suffering, and grief caused by our wars, as the wealthy, corporate shareholders and ruling class, along with the USA, get the profits.  They always have, and indeed the latter was made rich by both World Wars.

No, we the people also have to pick up the tab of the cost of the wars as our government recoups money through taxation to repay huge loans taken out to fund them.  The British public have only in 2006 finally paid the last 50th installment of £54 million the debt originally £3 billion (£4.8 billion after interest) outstanding to Uncle Sam and Canada from WW2, and, amazingly, only in 2015 paid the last £1.9 billion loan in bonds outstanding  from The Great War, and with a proportion going back to the South Sea Bubble and Waterloo.  However, interestingly after Britain borrowed a total of £7 billion from the USA to fund the Great War, Britain defaulted on it's repayments in 1934 and, allowing for inflation still owes Uncle Sam £40 billion.

So, no, apart from the obvious gains from employment in the armaments industry, the average person in Britain gets no gain from war.

Quite right. We refers to the establishment, decision makers. Not the people. We just are ants and as you say pay. Not once have the people said yes we will go to war. Those decisions are out of our hands. When the ants do get a vote and say as in Brexit and the result is not how the establishment wanted, heaven and earth is moved to get the “right result”.that is why May will fall.
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Varche

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #39 on: 12 November 2017, 19:43:23 »


Yay Jimmy's got his tin foil helmet out again!  ;D  :y

Maybe so, but, the one thing which is incontrovertible, when it comes to UK politicians is that every one of them is politically and personally out for their own ends.

The chlorinated chicken and hormone enhanced beef are well documented, and its also on The Orange One's agenda to get this cr@p onto our tables.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/29/hormonal-beef-chlorine-chicken-could-coming-uk-trade-deal-us/

Once we are out of the EU, whoever the incumbent political party is, will be under immense pressure to do deals with all the nations who the EU were apparently blocking us from trading with. So that we can "forge ahead on the world stage" and do all those other things that 52% of the voters are certain we'll be doing. Add to that a nice slice of pocket lining back-handers and it'll get done.

The US gov't (as an entity) isn't stupid, they know their negotiating position is superior and we will give concessions. I'd be amazed if this isn't one of them, sure there will be some aimless platitudes about "clear labelling" and "offering people a greater variety and choice when it comes to the weekly shop" and all that other gonads. But, as I say, I'll be amazed if the stuff doesn't make it through to us.

As to my expanding mammillae, probably unlikely, and in truth not much research has been done on hormone beef and its effect on humans, however, the only study I could find reference to online didn't make it sound terribly enticing...

Quote
A study published in the November 2011 issue of the journal "The Science of the Total Environment" found that a chemical growth promoter used in cattle may affect growth rates in girls. The compound, called zeranol, is an endocrine disruptor that blocks estrogen, resulting in growth rate abnormalities. In the study, 78.5 percent of the girls had measurable levels of zeranol. These girls were shorter, on average, and showed slower rates of breast development than girls with no detectable levels of the chemical. Researchers called for larger, more diverse studies to further clarify their results.

Ha ha. No backhanders for our current lot in bed with the EU? They are all at it. We will just be swapping one bunch for another. Most British housewives will welcome anything cheap. They have form. We
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #40 on: 12 November 2017, 19:46:22 »

Lizzie. My point was how much the uk derives from arms and military kit sales. We are the second biggest arms supplier in the world apparently.

Overall Total 15 billion a year? Bit embarrassing as we sort of have a vested interest in conflict.   :-[

But again, sorry Varche, it is a no.

"We" the people  gain very little from conflict.  We just end up with the pain, suffering, and grief caused by our wars, as the wealthy, corporate shareholders and ruling class, along with the USA, get the profits.  They always have, and indeed the latter was made rich by both World Wars.

No, we the people also have to pick up the tab of the cost of the wars as our government recoups money through taxation to repay huge loans taken out to fund them.  The British public have only in 2006 finally paid the last 50th installment of £54 million the debt originally £3 billion (£4.8 billion after interest) outstanding to Uncle Sam and Canada from WW2, and, amazingly, only in 2015 paid the last £1.9 billion loan in bonds outstanding  from The Great War, and with a proportion going back to the South Sea Bubble and Waterloo.  However, interestingly after Britain borrowed a total of £7 billion from the USA to fund the Great War, Britain defaulted on it's repayments in 1934 and, allowing for inflation still owes Uncle Sam £40 billion.

So, no, apart from the obvious gains from employment in the armaments industry, the average person in Britain gets no gain from war.

Quite right. We refers to the establishment, decision makers. Not the people. We just are ants and as you say pay. Not once have the people said yes we will go to war. Those decisions are out of our hands. When the ants do get a vote and say as in Brexit and the result is not how the establishment wanted, heaven and earth is moved to get the “right result”.that is why May will fall.

Yes, as in the case of Blair and the Iraq War.
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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #41 on: 12 November 2017, 19:53:13 »

Ha ha. No backhanders for our current lot in bed with the EU? They are all at it. We will just be swapping one bunch for another. Most British housewives will welcome anything cheap. They have form. We

Now at no point did I claim that  ;D.

But, the EU does have a lot of quaint rules around what can and cannot go into food, along with many other things. However, once we are "freed from the EU's shackles", its all down to us as to what we allow the yanks to sell us. And by us, I mean the perpetual clusterfu€k of a government in Westminster.

The sad thing is though, you're right, as with most things in the UK we'll buy it because its cheap, and once again, deserve all that we get.
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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #42 on: 12 November 2017, 20:03:00 »

That Telegraph link is little more than anti Brexit propaganda...

Anyone who genuinely believes that our food isn't already fed supplements needs sectioning.

Without WW2, British manufacturers wouldn't have employed so many people and the global recession of the '30s would have lasted much longer.
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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #43 on: 12 November 2017, 20:27:18 »

Talk to anybody that has experienced war in the armed forces or caught up in it as a civilian and they will tell you anything is better than war. Many who have fought have ended up being haunted by the death either by their actions in combat or watching those die around them.

I remember asking my great uncle about fighting in the Battle of the Somme, he went very quiet, had a 100-yard stare in his eyes for about 5 minutes and only started talking again by changing to a very different subject. My nan when he wasn't about asked me to never raise the subject again as it brought back bad memories that he had never talked about. As he was my favourite great-uncle, I felt a bit guilty about what I had done and I never raised the subject again.

After the absolutely disgraceful way Germany and France treated Greece over their bank's debt another European war when the EU collapses cannot be ruled out. Where German & French banks should have taken the losses (and banking crisis) from a default by the Greek banks they lean't it to, they literally lent Greece the money as sovereign debt and as it was paid into the Greek central bank it was paid out to the German and French banks to clear those debts thus socializing the debt as a Greek taxpayer liability which will keep them in servitude for many generations. :o :o :o
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Re: Two weeks to say how much we are going to pay
« Reply #44 on: 12 November 2017, 20:35:49 »

While there are humans on the planet, we will have wars. Its in our nature I'm afraid. We might ultimately wipe ourselves out in the process, but until then, we will fight one another.

The EU treatment of Greece is a fine example of what the EU is all about, for those who still have some delusion that there is anything good and well intentioned within it. Its about power and control for its own sake, with democracy seen as a nuisance which  tries to get in the way, and should be ignored.
This is much more important than financial considerations.
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