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Author Topic: Front Strut Top hat alignment  (Read 5833 times)

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LC0112G

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Front Strut Top hat alignment
« on: 25 January 2018, 18:02:43 »

I'm sure I've seen it wrote down somewhere, but stuffed if I can find it now. The metal top hat that supports the top of the front spring (together with the rubber bush) has got two holes in the top of it - one slightly larger than the other. What's the alignment? Fore/Aft or Port/Starboard? I think they're water drain holes.
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #1 on: 25 January 2018, 20:31:09 »

The orientation of that is governed by the spring, which in turn is located on the pressing of the strut collar :y
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LC0112G

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #2 on: 25 January 2018, 22:35:15 »

The orientation of that is governed by the spring, which in turn is located on the pressing of the strut collar :y
Huh???



The Top-Hat I'm talking about is bottom right in the above photo and you can see both holes - one small one large. The rubber spring seat (top right) is what seats on the end of the spring, but you can you can swivel that 360 degrees on the  Top-Hat.

What I'm asking is what is the correct alignment for the metal Top Hat part.
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LC0112G

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #3 on: 26 January 2018, 01:36:10 »

Found it. It's in the Haynes Carlton Manual, DWM1469, Chapter 10 Page 138 Figure 10.5. The small hole goes inboard (Section 4 Para 16).
« Last Edit: 26 January 2018, 01:38:16 by LC0112G »
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #4 on: 26 January 2018, 02:09:25 »

Sorry, with you now ;)
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Enceladus

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #5 on: 26 January 2018, 02:16:12 »

As I recall it's the same principle as a Senator B and a Carlton/Omega A. In which case the alignment 'hole' has to be opposite the lower strut mount bolts. So port/starboard as you expressed it.

That said I'm not certain from your photo which is the alignment hole and which the drainage hole. I vaguely recall that the factory fit has a yellow paint mark by the hole, but I won't swear to it. If the bigger hole is in a lower part of the pressing with respect to the mounted orientation, then the alignment hole is probably the smaller one.

Are they new top mount plates? Might the originals have a paint splodge?  And maybe post up a picture of the plate viewed a bit more overhead..
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Muroman

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #6 on: 26 January 2018, 12:00:31 »

I'm just changing the top strut mounts and I didn't follow what are you aligning with the hole??
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LC0112G

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #7 on: 26 January 2018, 12:31:46 »

I'm just changing the top strut mounts and I didn't follow what are you aligning with the hole??

I've just been experimenting. The pictures in Haynes aren't very clear, and the image in the Carlton manual appears to contradict the text. Anyhow...

I *think* the large hole goes outboard, so directly above the two shock to steering knuckle bolts. The small hole is therefore directly above the anti-roll bar fixing point.

There may have been marks on the top hats originally, but I've just had mine powder coated so any marks have been lost.
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STEMO

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #8 on: 26 January 2018, 15:59:58 »

It’s all a bit anal, isn’t it? Could it really make that much difference?
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LC0112G

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #9 on: 26 January 2018, 16:09:22 »

It’s all a bit anal, isn’t it? Could it really make that much difference?

Afraid it does. To test it I assembled one with the big hole out, and another with the big hole in. The big hole in one caused the top rubber to bulge under the loading from the spring - it just doesn't sit right. There is about a 10mm difference between the heights each side of the top hat, so if you got it 180 degrees out then there would an effective 20mm difference in the plane of the seating area.  I also suspect it'll foul the inner wing / turret top - but won't know that for sure till tomorrow when I attempt to bolt things to the car.

Off home now - need to make my tin foil and cardboard FA cup replica for tonights game  :D
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STEMO

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #10 on: 26 January 2018, 16:28:15 »

It’s all a bit anal, isn’t it? Could it really make that much difference?

Afraid it does. To test it I assembled one with the big hole out, and another with the big hole in. The big hole in one caused the top rubber to bulge under the loading from the spring - it just doesn't sit right. There is about a 10mm difference between the heights each side of the top hat, so if you got it 180 degrees out then there would an effective 20mm difference in the plane of the seating area.  I also suspect it'll foul the inner wing / turret top - but won't know that for sure till tomorrow when I attempt to bolt things to the car.

Off home now - need to make my tin foil and cardboard FA cup replica for tonights game  :D
You did right to check on the fitting then.  :y


Good luck for tonight, stranger things have happened.
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #11 on: 26 January 2018, 18:14:10 »

Alignment marks are green and white, but do not apparently line up with the holes...

The larger hole is indeed the drain hole, but surely it would make more sense for this to be inboard as that's the low side of the strut :-\

It also stands to reason that the horizontal surface of both spring cups should be parallel :-\

Struggling to realign mine as suggested, as you need to compress the spring and release the top nut in order to align everything.
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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #12 on: 26 January 2018, 19:50:43 »

I'm just changing the top strut mounts and I didn't follow what are you aligning with the hole??

I've just been experimenting. The pictures in Haynes aren't very clear, and the image in the Carlton manual appears to contradict the text. Anyhow...

I *think* the large hole goes outboard, so directly above the two shock to steering knuckle bolts. The small hole is therefore directly above the anti-roll bar fixing point.

There may have been marks on the top hats originally, but I've just had mine powder coated so any marks have been lost.
Drain hole inboard, alignment hole outboard.

As per the orientation of the original parts fitted to my car :y
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Enceladus

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #13 on: 27 January 2018, 05:07:54 »

I'm just changing the top strut mounts and I didn't follow what are you aligning with the hole??
The discussion is about the coil spring upper seat, item 2 in this drawing.
It fits into the rubber damper ring numbered 4 and together they sit on the top of the spring. However the upper seat's proper orientation is not immediately apparent.

Omega A/Carlton and Senator B use the same system. The Haynes manual for the Carlton says "The small hole in the upper seat must be positioned on the opposite side of the steering knuckle (Fig 10.5)." That would be inboard when the strut is mounted on the car.

That would seem to be at variance with Doctor Gollum's findings posted above which has the larger drain hole inboard and the smaller hole outboard. Or have I misunderstood? Haynes Fig 10.5 is also ambiguous.

In your case I would make a paint mark on the upper seat relative to some known point before you compress the spring or disassemble the strut. You might find that there are already factory white and/or green paint marks. And it might well be that the Haynes manual has got the holes mixed up or maybe the holes are a red herring. Might be the factory paint marks that should be used for alignment.

Yours is LHD so if I was re-using the springs I'd put them back on the side they were originally fitted to. If you remove the struts, you'll need to get your suspension geometry checked and adjusted somewhere with the right equipment and that might be expensive. Hence it might be an opportunity to renew the springs.
« Last Edit: 27 January 2018, 05:20:32 by Enceladus »
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #14 on: 27 January 2018, 07:42:47 »

Quote
That would seem to be at variance with Doctor Gollum's findings posted above which has the larger drain hole inboard and the smaller hole outboard. Or have I misunderstood? Haynes Fig 10.5 is also ambiguous.
No misunderstanding  ;)
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LC0112G

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #15 on: 27 January 2018, 20:19:14 »

I think I'm going to have to revise my original opinion and agree with Dr Gollum. A couple of hours fannying about under the car this afternoon and I came to the conclusion that for the top hat to have equal clearance all round to the turret top in the inner wing you want the large hole inboard, and the small hole outboard. That's 2 hours of my life I'll never get back!
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STEMO

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #16 on: 27 January 2018, 20:29:29 »

I think I'm going to have to revise my original opinion and agree with Dr Gollum. A couple of hours fannying about under the car this afternoon and I came to the conclusion that for the top hat to have equal clearance all round to the turret top in the inner wing you want the large hole inboard, and the small hole outboard. That's 2 hours of my life I'll never get back!
Added to the two you wasted at the match last night....... ;D ;D
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Migv6 le Frog Fan

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #17 on: 27 January 2018, 20:55:21 »

That's below the belt.  ::) ;D ;D
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LC0112G

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #18 on: 27 January 2018, 21:14:25 »

I think I'm going to have to revise my original opinion and agree with Dr Gollum. A couple of hours fannying about under the car this afternoon and I came to the conclusion that for the top hat to have equal clearance all round to the turret top in the inner wing you want the large hole inboard, and the small hole outboard. That's 2 hours of my life I'll never get back!
Added to the two you wasted at the match last night....... ;D ;D

Two hours ? And the rest. Anyway, did you like my tin foil and cardboard FA Cup replica? And my real Top Hat?

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STEMO

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #19 on: 27 January 2018, 21:24:01 »

I’m not talking about football at the moment. Swansea on Monday and West Brom tonight.  :(

But you do look very fetching.  :y
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STEMO

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #20 on: 27 January 2018, 21:25:20 »

Oh......hang on........3-2.......a draw, maybe?
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Enceladus

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #21 on: 29 January 2018, 00:14:15 »

The discussion is about the coil spring upper seat, item 2 in this drawing.
My apologies for the broken link to the drawing that I posted earler. Here is the corrected link that works.
Item 2 in this drawing.
« Last Edit: 29 January 2018, 00:22:18 by Enceladus »
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Muroman

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #22 on: 29 January 2018, 07:05:36 »

This happened me last year. Something started to make noise in front after changing shock absorbers. My findings was that the outside of the #2 on the picture was hitting the arch. This may be also caused by the problem I have now (huge cap between arch and top plate) but anyhow I didn't turn the #2 I only took hammer and hammered it down 2mm and that did the trick. Next time I'll know to turn it to right position  :y
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LC0112G

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #23 on: 29 January 2018, 12:06:34 »

This happened me last year. Something started to make noise in front after changing shock absorbers. My findings was that the outside of the #2 on the picture was hitting the arch. This may be also caused by the problem I have now (huge cap between arch and top plate) but anyhow I didn't turn the #2 I only took hammer and hammered it down 2mm and that did the trick. Next time I'll know to turn it to right position  :y

It's possible I suppose, but I think your problem is with the top mount. Here are a couple of pictures of a virgin setup :



You can see that the 6 rubber ribs on the top of the mount don't protrude above the top of the outer part of the bush. On your photo in the other thread you can see the rubber ribs, and the middle part of the bush is even higher. Something very wrong there IMHO and I'd be taking it apart before driving anywhere. Also, what does the other side look like? The same?
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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #24 on: 29 January 2018, 13:32:45 »

Old and worn top mounts can easily compress 15-20mm which would result in the 6 ribbed bits poking through even if nothing else is goosed.

My old MV6 was a bit like that, though not as bad, when I took the old top mounts off I put them side by side for a comparison.
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LC0112G

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #25 on: 29 January 2018, 14:15:10 »

Old and worn top mounts can easily compress 15-20mm which would result in the 6 ribbed bits poking through even if nothing else is goosed.

My old MV6 was a bit like that, though not as bad, when I took the old top mounts off I put them side by side for a comparison.

I'm struggling to imagine how the rubber can deform 15-20mm without something else being wrong there too. There is a metal washer (17 in the image) between the strut and the underside of the top mount, so that would have to either be punched through or badly deformed.  And how much clearance is there between the strut top and the underside of the bonnet? One good speed bump and you might find some new piercings in the bonnet. :P
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STEMO

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #26 on: 29 January 2018, 14:42:47 »

Something is pushing up from below, something of a smaller diameter to the rubber mount. I’m trying to work out from the exploded diagram what configuration would cause it to look like that.....but I’m struggling.
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LC0112G

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #27 on: 29 January 2018, 15:08:33 »

Something is pushing up from below, something of a smaller diameter to the rubber mount. I’m trying to work out from the exploded diagram what configuration would cause it to look like that.....but I’m struggling.

The shoulder on the top of the strut is about 2mm wider than the threaded part that goes up through the top mount :



This shoulder sits on the lower strut washer inside the top mount



You can see the silvery ring where the top of the strut has been pressed against the washer. On the LC, the washer punches through there. I believe Ian M (of ABS fame) also said he'd seen a few Carlton GSi's do the same thing. Once punched through all the strut load is transferred to the metal tube up the middle of the top mount, rather than being progressively distributed into the rubber by the washer. To me, that looks like what's happened here (assuming the washer was actually fitted in the first5 place)
« Last Edit: 29 January 2018, 15:12:49 by LC0112G »
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LC0112G

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #28 on: 29 January 2018, 16:03:38 »

There are some pictures of what happens to the washer on Dave F's site here :

http://www.lc890g.co.uk/front_suspension.htm
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STEMO

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #29 on: 29 January 2018, 16:17:08 »

Yes...I see. If that’s the case in Muromans car, one large pothole should do the trick.
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Muroman

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #30 on: 30 January 2018, 05:21:54 »

What would I do without you all  :y

I'll drive carefully untill I get this done and will get back after I have found the reason.
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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #31 on: 30 January 2018, 08:36:41 »

Old and worn top mounts can easily compress 15-20mm which would result in the 6 ribbed bits poking through even if nothing else is goosed.

My old MV6 was a bit like that, though not as bad, when I took the old top mounts off I put them side by side for a comparison.

I'm struggling to imagine how the rubber can deform 15-20mm without something else being wrong there too. There is a metal washer (17 in the image) between the strut and the underside of the top mount, so that would have to either be punched through or badly deformed.  And how much clearance is there between the strut top and the underside of the bonnet? One good speed bump and you might find some new piercings in the bonnet. :P

The strut and washer sit on the inner part of the top mount and the weight of the car sits on the outer part of the top mount and this is where the compression occurs.

Just for comparison sit your new and old top mounts side by side and you will see a difference, I had it with my Senator and my MV6 and I did have a photo somewhere but I think that has long gone.
With the Senator I had also used the strengthened washers from ABS a I was aware of the issues if the damper rod punching through the original washer.
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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #32 on: 30 January 2018, 20:26:55 »

Solved the on my car, it was the strut mount. Washers were in really good condition. Bigger hole came over tire and smaller over stabilizer bar.
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STEMO

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Re: Front Strut Top hat alignment
« Reply #33 on: 30 January 2018, 22:46:04 »

Solved the on my car, it was the strut mount. Washers were in really good condition. Bigger hole came over tire and smaller over stabilizer bar.
Glad it’s all sorted  :y
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