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[doughall]

Yesterday, on a normal road, I dropped my Omega into third, floored it to over take someone, not going over 5000 revs, and when I got the the end of the road, the engine startted to judder..

Massive lack of power now, and rumbles along. Sounds like a tank..

I've removed and cleaned as many hoses I could get to, checked all electrical plugs, and removed/checked all leads and spark plugs.. (Only plugs on the drivers bank as passenger side a b**ch to get to..)

Oil and water ok.. Only started doing this when I stopped at the next junction..
what have I done..

I don't have broadband installed in my new house yet, and I'm 30 miles from work.. Currently on dialup.. I'm on msn

If anyone lives in the Swindon/Wiltshire area that can help me fix my lifeline, I will pay money and beer...

HELP!  

[sir moanalot]

sounds like you may had slipped a couple of teeth on the cambelt? no doubt someone will be along soon to give you more advice.

[Admin]

Is the orange EM light on? If so, read the fault codes.

When was the cambelt kit last changed?

[doughall]

I don't get ANY EM Light at all, not even when starting, which I suppose would indicate the bulb's gone!
Also doing the "paperClip" trick doesn't show a light..
How do I take the Speedo unit out to change it? (sorry for the silly Q's, but I've only had an Omega for 5 days.. :-( )

[Jimbob]

I don't get ANY EM Light at all, not even when starting, which I suppose would indicate the bulb's gone!
Also doing the "paperClip" trick doesn't show a light..
How do I take the Speedo unit out to change it? (sorry for the silly Q's, but I've only had an Omega for 5 days.. :-( )

Now thats bad news and bad luck!

Whatever the removal of the bulb was hiding has gone big time, hope you got a warranty!
easy enough to remove the dash, think there is how to in the miant guides, basically start by removing the centre air vents

[Bo Bo]

How to is here

[doughall]

Thanks guys!
Also, if it helps, The strange fan thats starts up when the engine is first started is making a strange "struggling" noise too.. sometimes goes on for ages..

[Craig_R]

That Fan will be the secondary Air Injector dont worry about that, even if its knacked you dont need it, its to inject air into the manifold at start up to help reduce emissions before the lambda sensor is upto temp.

You need to replace that bulb and paper clip it, I had the same thing some bugger had removed the bulb lucky for me the errors it was hiding were easierly fixed with acouple of sensors.

Craig

[STMO123]

If the secondary air injection pump is annoying you, disconnect it.



and....



what do you mean, running like a metro....




whats wrong with metros?

[Danny]

whats wrong with metros? they're the most unsafe car on the road!! you'd probably suffer less injury by peddling a BMX at 30mph into a brick wall with no protective clothing!

[STMO123]

I was joking Danny, keep yer wig on mate

[doughall]

Ok. Got Speedo pod out.. No dam EM Light.. (thanks guys for the pointers!!)
Here's the codes...

13 - O2 Sensor - Open circuit
135 "check Engine" Lamp - Low Voltage - (Fixed that! :-) )
129 Came up 3 times. Dunno what it is..
71 - Air Temp Sensor - High Voltage
89 - O2 Sensor Heater - Low Voltage
136 - ECU
33 - Inlet Manifold Pressure Sensor - Voltage too High
31 Engine RPM Sensor - No signal

Scrap her? Do I go back to my Sterling? (Joke!!!!!!)

[doughall]

Is it possible to reset it completely, and start again? As I think I might have unplugged some of these things and plugged them back in again..

[STMO123]

Ok. Got Speedo pod out.. No dam EM Light.. (thanks guys for the pointers!!)
Here's the codes...

13 - O2 Sensor - Open circuit
135 "check Engine" Lamp - Low Voltage - (Fixed that! :-) )
129 Came up 3 times. Dunno what it is..
71 - Air Temp Sensor - High Voltage
89 - O2 Sensor Heater - Low Voltage
136 - ECU
33 - Inlet Manifold Pressure Sensor - Voltage too High
31 Engine RPM Sensor - No signal

Scrap her? Do I go back to my Sterling? (Joke!!!!!!)

Jeez. No wonder the bulb had been removed.

[Craig_R]

Jesus now that is a long list of codes

If you can take it back to where you bought it and complain that the EML bulb was missing and get your money back.

if thats not possible a good old trip down to a scrapper for the bits as some of these bits flashing up are not cheap.

The air temp sensor new is £27
An O2 Sensor New from VX is over £120 and yours has more than one
Other Bits I cant remember off the top of my Head

The ECU one scares me but the guys will be along in two tick to help out as mine is a 4 Pot and i dont know much on the V6's

Its about 20 clean starts to clear the EML of stored codes

How much did you pay for your meega ?

Craig

[doughall]

£400 private! I feel like such a boob!  

[Craig_R]

Dont Worry About Code 31 if the engine was not running the crack sensor needs the engine running to pick it up

I bet you could get all the parts you need from a scrapper.

Just depends on the Cambelt if its slipped.

When was the cambelt and tensoner's last changed ?

[doughall]

Cambelt.. - 20000 miles ago..

[doughall]

Just depends on the Cambelt if its slipped.

Is there anyway I can check? (Being that I'm not a mechanic. :-) )

[Craig_R]

As I say its not really my field V6 Lumps as Mine is a 4Pot But i did watch James change Chris's V6 Cambelt.

Any V6 God's can correct me at any time

You will need to remove the Aux Belt first and then remove the Cambelt cover you can then check the belt for damage or missing teeth to check to see if its slipped i would buy the V6  cambelt change DVD from here on the forum its only acouple of quid.

craig

[doughall]

Thanks Craig

[Taxi_Driver]

129 Came up 3 times. Dunno what it is..

129 is EGR valve.

[doughall]

129 Came up 3 times. Dunno what it is..

129 is EGR valve.

On my list, thats 132-134 inclusive..

[x25xe]

If the EGR valve is stuck open then this would cause running issues like you describe.  You can always blank this off and see if the running improves.  If so, you have found your fault and it won't have cost you anything apart from a bit of time.

[Kevin Wood]

Firstly I would look for any connectors around the engine that are not plugged in. Check the wiring inside the cable trays that run across the passenger side cylinder head and across the front of the cam cover for damage.

Secondly, a lot of this seems to point to the EGR and air injection systems, and, in fact, if these systems have issues, it may well be causing the Lambda sensors to misread by leaking air when it's not supposed to! So that's most of that depressing list taken care of!

Have a look at the pipework and wiring to the EGR valve on the driver's side of the inlet plenum and make sure it's all intact and not blowing exhaust gas. Do the same for the air injection pipe which runs across the front of the cam covers and back to both exhaust manifilds. Check the rubber secitons of hose aren't split or blowing exhaust gas.

Thirdly I would check both Oxygen sensors, which are screwed into the exhaust downpipes. Make sure their connections are secure.

Let us know if you find anything and we'll take it from there.

Kevin

[Matchless]

Thats far too many codes to be simple sensor failure etc.
Have a good look at the big connectors next to the battery, I wonder if one isnt latched in properly.
Otherwise follow the loom from the big connectors and look for damage, its showing egr and intake codes so would guess at the loom branch running across the front of the engine.

[doughall]

If the EGR valve is stuck open then this would cause running issues like you describe.  You can always blank this off and see if the running improves.  If so, you have found your fault and it won't have cost you anything apart from a bit of time.

Thanks for your advise!
Althought there is one problem with that! I have no idea what you just said! HeHe!   i'm an Omega virgin.
Could you explain that to me as if I'm 12 years old, pref with pictures! :-)
Sorry to be a drag, but thanks!  

[ians]

I think you should be able to lossen off the cambelt cover enough to prise it away at the top - careful you don't crack it though. May need the cable tray undoing first.  You need to be able to see the top of the cams and the notches on the back plate.

Turn the crank clockwise until the notch alligns with the pointer (at c 2 o'clock if I recall correctly) then see if the markings on the cams are in allignment with the backplate - if they are nowhere to be seen then you will need to turn the crank one more turn to bring the cams into allignment.
You are looking to see if the cams are out by a couple of teeth.

This is a quick and dirty method just to check, not to time it up properly if you end up replacing it - you need to borrow a cam timing kit for that.  To properly strip it down involves removing the black air trumpets at the front , the alloy secondary air pipework, aux belt, cable tray, and some pulleys (I recall) - nothing difficult but takes a bit of time.

One thing though - you said the cambelt was changed 20k ago.  Did that include the rollers and tensioner? - could be that the tensioner has slipped.    If in doubt it would be worth getting the whole timing belt/rollers/tensioner kit changed.

Cheers

Ian

[Admin]

Hmmm, based on the codes and the behaviour, I would suspect a blocked exhaust, most likely a blocked cat.

At 5k rpm or so, it won't "jump" a tooth or 2 on the cams, it will let go in a very impressive manner!

[doughall]

Hmmm, based on the codes and the behaviour, I would suspect a blocked exhaust, most likely a blocked cat.

At 5k rpm or so, it won't "jump" a tooth or 2 on the cams, it will let go in a very impressive manner!

Thats good to know..   Phew!


With regards to the EGR Blanking off post above.. What does that entail?

[ians]

The EGR looks like a small tin of peas standing upright about half way along the plenum (square alloy bit with plastic Ecotec in the middle) on the drivers side.  Worth having a poke around there - see if its loose (I have had two let go on me).

[x25xe]

Hmmm, based on the codes and the behaviour, I would suspect a blocked exhaust, most likely a blocked cat.

At 5k rpm or so, it won't "jump" a tooth or 2 on the cams, it will let go in a very impressive manner!

Thats good to know..   Phew!


With regards to the EGR Blanking off post above.. What does that entail?

Blocked exhaust is also a very strong possibility.  To blank of the EGR, you need to remove it from the manifold.  The hole that is then exposed is then blocked by means of a thin piece of metal - the side of a coke can etc. - and the valve is then put back on.  This will not clear the fault, but it will stop the exhaust gas being drawn into the engine when it should not.

As others have said (as as I should have ) check all the wiring connectors are pushed home etc.

I hope that this explains it better - if not post again.  I will try and put some pictures up later of the EGR valve so you know what you are looking for at least.

[doughall]

I get it now.. Thanks!
Going out in the rain now!


"I'll be back!

[Admin]

As Matchless said, too many codes right now.

Disconnect battery (don't lock car beforehand and make sure you have radio code!) and leave it for at least a couple of hours, ideally overnight.

This should clear the codes.

While you are waiting, you can go round the engine and ensure ALL the connectors are good including the lambda (oxygen) sensors in the exhaust downpipes.

When you reconnect, check the codes with just the ignition on. You should get 12 & 31.
Start the engine and then see what you get.

I am pretty sure it will flag up exhaust related codes....

I think the previous owner found out the cat(s) were going and removed the EM bulb to hide the evidence! 

[Gaffers]

I'm in tidworth and can come up this weekend and have a look for you.  I have the cam locking kit to check the cam belt and I know enough to check what these guys are talking about  

Send me a pm with your addy and I will try pop up fri night/sat am

[Dazzler]

I'm in tidworth and can come up this weekend and have a look for you.  I have the cam locking kit to check the cam belt and I know enough to check what these guys are talking about  
 
Send me a pm with your addy and I will try pop up fri night/sat am



Can'y say fairer than that, can you? What a club

[Ronald_McBurger]

Gut feeling? Cambelt has NOT slipped as Laidback says, and me & him have done enough! EGR valve probably stuck and CAT blocked does sound a very real possibility, hence O2 sensor throwing a wobbly.

I would do as Laidback says and disconnect the battery overnight. When you reconnect it, beware that the alarm will go off immediately, so have your remote handy. just lock and unlock the doors to stop that noise.

Radio code will need putting back in. Windows and sunrood will need resetting, easy 2 minute job.

Then paperclip with engine running and see what it throws up.

We are a good bunch on here and will get you sorted. Or I will buy the car for £50, whiuchever suits you most.

[Gaffers]

I'm in tidworth and can come up this weekend and have a look for you.  I have the cam locking kit to check the cam belt and I know enough to check what these guys are talking about  
 
Send me a pm with your addy and I will try pop up fri night/sat am



Can'y say fairer than that, can you? What a club

T'is the promise of beer that entices even the most fickle.......  8-)

[doughall]

I truely can't get over how helpful you guys are! I thank you very very much!!
I'll disconnect the battery now, and leaqve it till Friday/Saturday!

Thanks again! I'll post here if any developments...

[TheBoy]

Disconnect battery (don't lock car beforehand and make sure you have radio code!) and leave it for at least a couple of hours, ideally overnight.

This should clear the codes.

Not sure it will on the Motronic....

[Admin]

I have found it works, and it's cheaper than your rates!  

[TheBoy]

I have found it works, and it's cheaper than your rates!  

I'd be interested to hear if it does.  In my experience, the codes remain on the 2.8.1 ECUs, as if its stored in flash.

As to my rates, I defy anyone to consistently beat them - remember, its not a business, I am just trying to recoup some of the initial and ongoing costs (it will never pay for itself outright)....

[Dave-C]

Hmmm, based on the codes and the behaviour, I would suspect a blocked exhaust, most likely a blocked cat.

At 5k rpm or so, it won't "jump" a tooth or 2 on the cams, it will let go in a very impressive manner!

Blocked cat, was my first thought, plays havoc with the EGR system on any car.. We, had the exact problem on a Cossy 24v, they have 4 cats, we took 'em off prodded the honeycomb out "et voila" sorted, emissions OK too....

The Cossy cat blocked after kicking down to overtake too!!!!!!!!!

[Taxi_Driver]

I have found it works, and it's cheaper than your rates!  

I'd be interested to hear if it does.  In my experience, the codes remain on the 2.8.1 ECUs, as if its stored in flash.

As to my rates, I defy anyone to consistently beat them - remember, its not a business, I am just trying to recoup some of the initial and ongoing costs (it will never pay for itself outright)....

Jamies rates are too cheap as i told him in a recent message to him....vx stealers charge more than double....but will he listen....probably not...coz he's too kind hearted  

[Marks DTM Calib]

Motronic codes do not clear with the battery method as they are stored in flash memory........only after a number of clean starts will they go...

[TheBoy]

Jamies rates are too cheap as i told him in a recent message to him....vx stealers charge more than double....but will he listen....probably not...coz he's too kind hearted  

Tenner in the post

[x25xe]

Hmmm, based on the codes and the behaviour, I would suspect a blocked exhaust, most likely a blocked cat.

At 5k rpm or so, it won't "jump" a tooth or 2 on the cams, it will let go in a very impressive manner!

Thats good to know..   Phew!


With regards to the EGR Blanking off post above.. What does that entail?

Blocked exhaust is also a very strong possibility.  To blank of the EGR, you need to remove it from the manifold.  The hole that is then exposed is then blocked by means of a thin piece of metal - the side of a coke can etc. - and the valve is then put back on.  This will not clear the fault, but it will stop the exhaust gas being drawn into the engine when it should not.

As others have said (as as I should have ) check all the wiring connectors are pushed home etc.

I hope that this explains it better - if not post again.  I will try and put some pictures up later of the EGR valve so you know what you are looking for at least.

As promised, here we go with the pics of the EGR valve.  This is from my 1998 mini facelift.

Firstly, the EGR valve itself which is on the drivers side of the engine (left hand cylinder bank):



Next, is the connection between the exhaust manifold and the base of the EGR valve:



and this is where the top of the valve mounts on the Plenum (the silver top of the engine with ECOTEC written on it):



I guess that either the base of the valve, the shiny silver part in the first pic where it meets the older looking metal, or at the plenum would be the best places to blank it off if you choose to take this route.

I will be interested to see how you get on with resolving this issue.

Hope this helps in some way.  Good Luck

****EDIT****

Edited to correct spelling of best and include what I was going to say about blanking at either the base or the plenum.

[Gaffers]

What about blocking it off where it meets the plenum, easier to get those bolts off than the rusted ones at the base of the egr, mine is the same as the one in the pics and I dont fancy doing that.

Btw I will pop down on sat am, will call when on route.  

[x25xe]

What about blocking it off where it meets the plenum, easier to get those bolts off than the rusted ones at the base of the egr, mine is the same as the one in the pics and I dont fancy doing that.

Btw I will pop down on sat am, will call when on route.  

Agreed.  I ment to suggest this area as well, but this got missed of my post    Now edited to correct this and a typo!

[ians]

I think I would still go for the base (I've removed those bolts on a number of EGR's when replacing mine - they are stiff but generally come out ok), mainly because I think there is risk of stripping the thread on the alloy plenum - esp if trying to insert a foreign body between EGR and plenum.

[doughall]

Btw I will pop down on sat am, will call when on route.  

That'd be brill!

the EPG thing; I don't really have the proper tools, (torx), although I could get round it.. (but I wont! :-) )

Again, thanks guys!

Back with my Missus's Escort for the mo.. :-)

I'll report back soon!

[ians]

Doug,

If you intend doing any work on your Omega - even the simplest thing like changing oil - you will need a set of torx bits/sockets.
Machine Mart do a nice set for about 15 quid as I recall (there's one in Swindon).

Cheers,
Ian

[doughall]

Doug,

If you intend doing any work on your Omega - even the simplest thing like changing oil - you will need a set of torx bits/sockets.
Machine Mart do a nice set for about 15 quid as I recall (there's one in Swindon).

Cheers,
Ian

Of course! I definatley intend on getting a set. Just haven't had the time just yet..
Thanks for refering to the Swindon shop!

[ians]

This is the one I got.

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/pro151-29-pce-metric-socket-set

[Gaffers]

Reference this weekend I will have to delay slightly on Saturday.  Its now looking like sat lunchtime as I have to put some of my guys on a plane to hot and sandy climbs in the morning.  Once that is done I will be up the A338 like a firework in the sky to hopefully get you back on the road to recovery (or at least a diagnosis)

To clarify I will first check timing belt (unlikely to have slipped I know but you cant be too careful and I have the tools)  Then we will isolate the egr and if that isnt the problem then we should assume a blocked cat so compare exhaust flow between our two cars.  If we think it is the cat we can drill a hole to confirm and then you can decide if you want to get the work done to chance or if you want to sell it someone on here.  Again I have all the tools we need for this so dont go buying stuff until you know you want to keep the car, but then if it just one of these small things the cost to repair isnt too high and will give you many miles of driving pleasure - as many of you will agree.

**edit** Just a thought have you a garage or somewhere under cover we can work if this wonderful weather carries on? **edit**

I will call once en route.

Gaffers

[doughall]

I will have to delay slightly on Saturday.  Its now looking like sat lunchtime as I have to put some of my guys on a plane to hot and sandy climbs in the morning.  

Cool. Lay-in for me! :-) HeHe!

I'll just trust your judgment on what we'll be doing to the car!

I do have a garage, (of some description), and will dip the front end of the car in it if weather carries on like this!

Again, thanks!! :-)

[doughall]

For whats its worth from VXON.. (Sorry for straying! :-) )

Guys not sure what the original post reports ( read it ALL after some scrummpy ) but in a spirited drive down the back roads round my way , very tight twisty b roads had a motorbike closing in on me, the omega was never going to pull away but thought i'd give him something to watch before the road straightened out, well some back end action and huge RPM the corners ended and off he blasted past me. I then noticed the Omega surging ,thought I'd fu55ed something. It was only doing this on constant long runs ie half mile or more stretches at a constent speed, it had a very slight surge. I spent ages checking it all out , computer read outs and everything . Wasn't till I took off the back box to remove the baffles and fit a nice HSV finisher that I came across the problem...............

The baffle fibres were blocking the box complety. The back box was blocked.

I cut open the box removed the baffles, added the tip and it sorted it instantly.

They must of got forced back during my thrashing and blocked th ebox thus causing back pressure and the underlining fault.

Just a tail from mt travels.......

[Markjay]

I think you need to eliminate the possibility of a slipped cambelt before driving the car again - the slipped cambelt can be as result of a failed tensioner, which will also explain the rumbling noise....

[Marks DTM Calib]

Your first ports of call need to be

1) Check the wiring and main connectors at the rear of the battery tray.....the fault codes sudgest this as number one cause....

2) Check the cam timing....

Dont do anything else until this is done as it will only add unknowns if you go down a blind alley....

The fault codes dont sudgest a blocked exhaust....the miss fire does not sudgest a blocked exhaust.....and the fact that the exhaust and/or air injection couplers have not ruptured sudgests its not a blocked exhaust......

[doughall]

My head hurts!  

I'm ganna leave it till the expert gets here on Saturday!
(Although I have already checked as many plugs/fuses/connectors/cables/Oojimmy-flippie-things as I could the otehr day.. Looked ok)

[Gaffers]

Flattered I am, but sorry dude I am not an expert.  But I can diagnose the problems these guys are throwing out of their expert brains. 8-)

BTW, I cant remeber the last time I had a lie-in.....   :-/

[doughall]

Flattered I am, but sorry dude I am not an expert.  

I can write what I know about Omegas on the back of a stamp... IN CAPITALS! So your are certainly defo an expert! :-)

[Gaffers]

Right, just got back from dougies place after looking at his car.

Earthing point - secure no corrosion no reason why it should cause the problem.
Timing belt - not slipped, timing correct, belt and tensioner condition pretty fair
EGR - blocked off makes no differnce whatsoever
Checked plugs and HT leads - plugs seem fair but could do with changing soon.  HT leads rubber is cooked, rocker cover gaskets are leaking but the metal inside is still pretty clean.  Although these need to be replaced after the breathers and cam covers are done I dont not think this is the cause of the problem.
Exhaust - OMFG!!!  Looks like the previous owner has fitted a very wierd cat on the passenger side.  It was about half the size of the opposite side and the lambda sensor was mounted in a putty/wire bracket.

IMHO I think the cat is blocked because:
-the cat is much smaller than it should be and I do not think it can handle the throughput from the v6 and shed it fibres. It doesnt even sit right (much higher than the other side.
-the exhuast fumes coming out the back are bitty and not constant like on mine
-the problem came on suddenly and was not a gradual decline
-nothing else seems wrong

Unless it is the fuel filter that is blocked I cannot think of anything else that could be wrong.  It is worth noting that the previous owner was a bit of a cowboy looking at the work that had been done.

If you get some vx rocker gaskets and some carb cleaner (plus the HTleads and spark plugs) we can help you out at the next meet in tidders.

Gaffers

P.S the site for Micheldever tyres who do good exhaust deals is not working but here is the number 01962 774437

[doughall]

A billion thanks to mrgaffney!! Thank you!! (Also, you left your Haynes manual in my Garage..)

Ok. I've decided to go down the route of buying and changing the exhaust myself..
I'll go for the cheaper version for £250 as prices in Garages ranged from £650 (Micheldever) to £1175 (GM)

Has anyone had the experience yet? I know the nuts will be difficult to get off, but does anyone have any tips?

[ians]

Doug,

From reading other posts on here I think your best most cost effective route would be to source a GM exhaust and find a local garage to fit it for a few notes.

Should end up around the £250 level if you can get it on TC.

Cheers
ian

[Marks DTM Calib]

And source a pair of good second hand cats from a breaker....

[doughall]

And source a pair of good second hand cats from a breaker....

The £280 includeds CATs.

[Marks DTM Calib]

And source a pair of good second hand cats from a breaker....

The £280 includeds CATs.

Yes but, you cant buy one decent cat for that price and hence they will be shite and not worth the money......

Good second hand cats.....plus a Vx system on trade club is the wy forward....

[doughall]

Has anyone got a tradecard I can borrow?
As much as I love the Omega, 1) I'm not paying 4 times the worth of the car on an exhaust, and 2) I don't really want the car to outlive the exhaust, as it probably will..
I can't afford £1200...
If I can get it on TC for £300 then I have the mechanic friend to fit it for me if need be..

[ians]

You can always join Autobahnstormers for £20, but I know there are several trade cards not far from you who will likely volunteer in a short while...

[Jimbob]

You can always join Autobahnstormers for £20, but I know there are several trade cards not far from you who will likely volunteer in a short while...

Highly recommended procedure, I sent a cheque in the first post of Tuesday, on Thursday my card arrived!

[doughall]

Ok...Finally got my BackBox off.. TOTALLY clogged with furry fibre glass stuff..
Mid boxes also buggered.. Banging them; sounds like they've got sand in!  

Started the engine; obviously very noisey, but engine runs a dream compared to before!
Think I've found my answer!


I just wanna thank EVERYONE for their quick replies, and pointers to dianose this beast!
Big thanks to Matt also, for coming out here, and helping me, (well, doing all the work) narrow down the causes and checking my aux/cam belts.

Thanks Thanks Thanks!

[hol666]

And as a warning about crap non-vx exhausts, last July I had fitted the middle and back box at a local place, today they have replaced the middle section under warranty as it had failed in under 8k? Lucky I kept the receipt.  :-/