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[Webby the Bear]

Hi guys,

Well, got my hands on my first turbo the other day (wife's dad's TDI Passat). Ever since I've been learning loads. Has anyone watched 'Mighty Car Mods'. Not usually the sorta thing I like but the two guys are pretty funny and they turbo charge everything! lol

So:

Has anyone turbo charged a V6 mig? if so was the turbo coming off just one fannymould or two turbos off both of them? I'm guessing space is the biggest problem especially with the angle of the fannymould? If anyone has a thread on the build let me know (couldn't find one myself)

If in the process of say swapping out a turbo on a normal TDI for example.... can you simply swap it out for a bigger one? What considerations if you wanted a bigger one?

Where would you tap an oil line to? Would you have to tap in to an oil gallery to get pre-pressurised oil?

Dump pipe.... is this simply where the exhaust goes after its spun the turbine?

Cheers guys

[tidla]

I recon father in lawish would like it "just fixed" first.

[Webby the Bear]

I recon father in lawish would like it "just fixed" first.

lol don't worry not touching hiscar. just pondering 

[05omegav6]

The Omega engine is the wrong way round to be fitting Saab V6 turbo and manifolds... turbo would end up buried in the bulkhead Only V6 option is a remote turbo or supercharger, usually mounted where the aircon compressor used to be.
Requires strengthened crank/conrods/bearings for longevity plus a thicker head gasket to drop the compression ratio about a bar. This stops the engine from blowing itself to smithereens when revved. Oil supply for turbo is easily fitted as a remote system with a pump and separate cooler.

It can reliably make a 2.5 produce 3.0/3.2 power, but much more than that and you'll soon get pissed off rebuilding it

Four pot has potential either with 2.0 turbo manifold, (not sure if this will fit the desmond), and a custom exhaust, or by fitting the supercharger kit from a VX220. Not entirely sure that the plumbing allows this to fit straight into an Omega engine bay though

Expect a couple of grand to make it run...

[Webby the Bear]

Thanks Al,

So. If you were turbo charging an NA engine youd need to upgrade internals? So these young lads that do it will blow the engine at some point by just mashing a turbo on...?

And what about simply fitting a bigger turbo to an already turbo'd car?

What about ECU?

[4x4]

Do a search on 1.7 turbo puma and frp puma turbo,most stuff can be found on projectpuma.com
This will give you an idea on doing a 4 pot and how much money is involved.

[05omegav6]

Thanks Al,

So. If you were turbo charging an NA engine youd need to upgrade internals? So these young lads that do it will blow the engine at some point by just mashing a turbo on...?

And what about simply fitting a bigger turbo to an already turbo'd car?

What about ECU?

Using the VW example, the 1.9 tdi produced anything from 90-180bhp. This is mostly the result of  ecu programming, although you would like to think that the internals etc on the more powerful ones were upgraded from the basic ones... bigger intercoolers etc

Their 1.8t produces 140-225bhp, again with little more than an ecu update. Key point here is tgat the engines were designed from scrstch to be turbocharged...

[cem_devecioglu]

Hi guys,

Well, got my hands on my first turbo the other day (wife's dad's TDI Passat). Ever since I've been learning loads. Has anyone watched 'Mighty Car Mods'. Not usually the sorta thing I like but the two guys are pretty funny and they turbo charge everything! lol

So:

Has anyone turbo charged a V6 mig? if so was the turbo coming off just one fannymould or two turbos off both of them? I'm guessing space is the biggest problem especially with the angle of the fannymould? If anyone has a thread on the build let me know (couldn't find one myself)

If in the process of say swapping out a turbo on a normal TDI for example.... can you simply swap it out for a bigger one? What considerations if you wanted a bigger one?

Where would you tap an oil line to? Would you have to tap in to an oil gallery to get pre-pressurised oil?

Dump pipe.... is this simply where the exhaust goes after its spun the turbine?

Cheers guys

there are several turbo and supercharged examples..  here is one


http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=111701.0


also I have seen a twin turbo calibra v6 with custom ecu cant find the link now


both options single or twin turbo is valid but apparently twin turbo will be more costly


due to nature of turbo conversions many components in the engine would need to be relocated
some redesigned or changed depending on the requirement..


turbo and downpipe will need support legs , hardest part is controlling crank case presssure, you will have considerable amount of oil coming from crank breather so will need an oil catch tank and return line to lowest point of sump (must be very close to the the oil pump suction point )


there are also numerous issues you have to solve..  so needs money
 time and patience..


and as for turbo selection: very critical.. you have to deal with cfm calculations of the engine at various rpms and draw some lines on turbo spec charts.. so you can see at what rpm turbo will spool

[cem_devecioglu]

here is an example calculation for 0.5 bar
if you plan to use different turbo pressure replace  7 psig


for  7 psig boost
(7 psig + 13.15 psia) / (13.15 psia – 1 psig) = 1.658 pressure ratio line




1.658= pressure ratio


1.6  * 6700 * 80 *1.658/5660=251.21= CFM


1.6 *6700 *80* 1.9/5660=287.887 cfm




251.21* 0.07 =17.585 lb/m


287.887*0.07 =20.15 lb/m


1000 rpm  2.625 lb/m






pressure ratio calculation




2.625 *2= 5.25   =2000 rpm (7 psig)
2.625 *3= 7.875  =3000 rpm (7 psig)
2.625 *4= 10.5   =4000 rpm (7 psig)
2.625 *5= 13.125 =5000 rpm (7 psig)
2.625 *6= 15.75  =6000 rpm (7 psig)








6700 > 251.21 CFM


1000 RPM > 37.494 CFM
2000 RPM > 74.988 CFM
3000 RPM > 112.482
4000 RPM > 157.976
5000 RPM > 187.47
6000 RPM > 224.964


the calculations are for a 1.6 litre engine for 0.5 bar


now you draw this line on a turbo product spec sheet


here is an example chart
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbocharger#GT2056 (click on the performance map tab)

[omegod]

Simplest way to turbo a mig would be dropping in a Saab 2.3 FPT in along with an R28 which should bolt straight up to the block due to GM taking over Saab in 1993. Very strong and cheap engine that can take as much boost as you can throw at it, 325 bhp on standard internals has been achieved.

[cem_devecioglu]

http://www.enginelogics.com/read-a-turbo-compressor-map/

[cem_devecioglu]

Simplest way to turbo a mig would be dropping in a Saab 2.3 FPT in along with an R28 which should bolt straight up to the block due to GM taking over Saab in 1993. Very strong and cheap engine that can take as much boost as you can throw at it, 325 bhp on standard internals has been achieved.

I'm afraid not that simple.. you will have to deal with harness and lots of electrical (and connection) problems

[omegod]

Simplest way to turbo a mig would be dropping in a Saab 2.3 FPT in along with an R28 which should bolt straight up to the block due to GM taking over Saab in 1993. Very strong and cheap engine that can take as much boost as you can throw at it, 325 bhp on standard internals has been achieved.

I'm afraid not that simple.. you will have to deal with harness and lots of electrical (and connection) problems

Still simpler than turboing an engine that can't tolerate a turbo with any kind of boost Cem

[cem_devecioglu]

Simplest way to turbo a mig would be dropping in a Saab 2.3 FPT in along with an R28 which should bolt straight up to the block due to GM taking over Saab in 1993. Very strong and cheap engine that can take as much boost as you can throw at it, 325 bhp on standard internals has been achieved.

I'm afraid not that simple.. you will have to deal with harness and lots of electrical (and connection) problems

Still simpler than turboing an engine that can't tolerate a turbo with any kind of boost Cem

v6 can tolerate 400 hp and more as in the example

[05omegav6]

Not without serious bottom end work it won't 

[cem_devecioglu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCXzbzE1OSg

frank denkers calibra
http://www.opel-magazin.hu/en-autom/alomautok/52-calibra-v6-kompressor.html


500 hp

[Webby the Bear]

Thanks for all the input guys.

Are we saying that ''IN GENERAL'' NA cars don't have the meat n veg down bottom end to deal with any type of turbo coming in?

I can well believe it... I mean if it was meant to be turbo charged it wold have been. innit lol

[Marks DTM Calib]

Rarely the case actually, most engines are fine at the bottom end and the Omega, particularly the 3.2 is pretty strong.

The major issue is cooling and compression ratio in pretty much every case

When you use forced induction you get elevated cylinder temperatures and that heat has to be managed, this we know is the downfall of the Omega V6 in this scenario.

There are ways to manage it, oil squirters to cool the piston crown are easy enough to fit as are a few cooling modes to the coolant passages.

Similarly with compression ratio, forced induction increases the dynamic compression ratio and hence the static has to be reduced to compensate.

[The Sheriff]

Rarely the case actually, most engines are fine at the bottom end and the Omega, particularly the 3.2 is pretty strong.

The major issue is cooling and compression ratio in pretty much every case

When you use forced induction you get elevated cylinder temperatures and that heat has to be managed, this we know is the downfall of the Omega V6 in this scenario.

There are ways to manage it, oil squirters to cool the piston crown are easy enough to fit as are a few cooling modes to the coolant passages.

Similarly with compression ratio, forced induction increases the dynamic compression ratio and hence the static has to be reduced to compensate.

I was gonna tell him that but you beat me to it.....again. 

[Webby the Bear]

Rarely the case actually, most engines are fine at the bottom end and the Omega, particularly the 3.2 is pretty strong.

The major issue is cooling and compression ratio in pretty much every case

When you use forced induction you get elevated cylinder temperatures and that heat has to be managed, this we know is the downfall of the Omega V6 in this scenario.

There are ways to manage it, oil squirters to cool the piston crown are easy enough to fit as are a few cooling modes to the coolant passages.

Similarly with compression ratio, forced induction increases the dynamic compression ratio and hence the static has to be reduced to compensate.

Thanks Mark,

So, if I've got this right, as well as messing with the cooling and fitting extra cooling aids, the heads would need to come off to be skimmed or combustion chamber bowled out more to adjust the CR?

[Marks DTM Calib]

Various ways of doing it, dished forged pistons, thicker head gasket etc.....clearly skimming will increase the compression ratio not reduce it 

[omega3000]

Is 3.0 bottom end strong enough 

[Webby the Bear]

Various ways of doing it, dished forged pistons, thicker head gasket etc.....clearly skimming will increase the compression ratio not reduce it 

lol yeah sorry should have typed slower and read what I was putting 

So, my point being.... whatever way you wrap it up simply jamming a turbo on an NA car will require you to perform some internal mods even if the bottom end is up to the task of coping with it.

so, how would one choose a turbo? am I right in thinking that smaller ones create less lag as they spool up quicker but don't provide great boost at the top of the rev range and vice versa with big ones....

[Diamond Black Geezer]

No way an expert on this level of 'modding', however yes, that's the reason Lotus chose twin Garrett T25 Turbochargers for the Lotus Carlton - the idea being two little ones spool up quicker than one big one. Also take note of certain cars in production that have one tiny turbo and one larger one - for the same reason.

The general consensus is that supercharging the V6 is the best route, however, you must tread your own path; and I wish you best of success 

[Kevin Wood]

so, how would one choose a turbo? am I right in thinking that smaller ones create less lag as they spool up quicker but don't provide great boost at the top of the rev range and vice versa with big ones....

There are lots of sums to do to get the best out of it. It's easy to do badly and difficult to do well.

[cem_devecioglu]

personally I think even 6-7 psi turbo setup will be more than enough for daily use (for omega)
but even in that case the first problem you will face is injectors fuelling will not be sufficient
so you will need higher flow injectors( also you can use an adjustable fuel pressure regulator).. of course in that case the question is : will the pump be adequate for that rate.. and 3rd problem will be ecu..  it has to compansate increased air flow rate..  so you will need a custom programmed ecu (cheapest is megasquirt) .. 4th you will need intercooler to cool the heated compressed air.. compression ratio is not that criticial contrary to the general belief (if you wont go in high turbo pressures ) .. instead you have to deal with fuel air ratio (to control you need a wideband lambda) and change it drastically when pressure kicks in..  and you have to retard ignition from custom ecu which you cant with the stock one..


if you will go in that expense to turbo , than cooling can be solved with "some" investment   (in that supercharged calibra they cut slots in the block for better coolant flow )


but generally speaking it wont be cheap in any case

[Kevin Wood]

.. compression ratio is not that criticial contrary to the general belief (if you wont go in high turbo pressures ) ..

I wouldn't put even 6-7 PSI of boost into an engine with 10.8:1 compression (as in the X25/30XE).

[cem_devecioglu]

.. compression ratio is not that criticial contrary to the general belief (if you wont go in high turbo pressures ) ..

I wouldn't put even 6-7 PSI of boost into an engine with 10.8:1 compression (as in the X25/30XE).

ok.. whats the outcome of high compression on a boosted engine?  early ignition before spark.. and detonation..


this can be solved in several ways..  ignition retard, increasing fuel in air fuel ratio, cooling air by intercooler and water injection and lastly higher octane fuel


I have seen lots of audi turbos with 11.5 :1  ,  and also I didnt drop my compression ratio too..




if the car is equipped with a knock sensor , most stock ecus retard ignition to some extent.. of course if thats not enough you may use other methods.. at low boosts 10.8 :1  is not that problem


dropping the compression also has another disadvantage the car will need more boost to go..


I have seen 22 psi boost with stock compression

[aaronjb]

.. compression ratio is not that criticial contrary to the general belief (if you wont go in high turbo pressures ) ..

I wouldn't put even 6-7 PSI of boost into an engine with 10.8:1 compression (as in the X25/30XE).

You can have a reliable 250hp (30-40,000 miles) in the Toyota 1ZZ, that's 10.0:1 and 140hp standard.  OK so maybe adding a similar percentage if you start with 10.8:1 would be optimistic, but..

[cem_devecioglu]

I think thats a good reading about high CR


http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0311_phr_compression_ratio_tech/

[Webby the Bear]

Ok, didn't mean to create arguments 

However, it still doesn't change thefact that there are lots of folk on youtube  jamming in turbos without any changes to the engine at all.

so moving on... where do you take your boost reading from? presumably the intake? and how do you increase boost??? seen a lot of folk talking about that.

[Webby the Bear]

ps think I may need to pick myself up a spares or repairs tdi to have a play 

[cem_devecioglu]

Ok, didn't mean to create arguments 

However, it still doesn't change thefact that there are lots of folk on youtube  jamming in turbos without any changes to the engine at all.

so moving on... where do you take your boost reading from? presumably the intake? and how do you increase boost??? seen a lot of folk talking about that.

boost reading taken from inlet  manifold by a T going anywhere else that doesnt have check valve .. and measured either by an analog or electronic gauge.. my advice is use an analog one at the beginning ,  a faulty electronic one was about to cost me dearly


all turbos come with a factory boost value arranged from the wastegate..  and generally high values for a beginner (around 0.8 to 1.0 bar) ..  but you can get it measured  and lowered in a turbo repair shop.. if you try to test on the car first time it could be costly.. be warned!!


if you ask my opinion any installer must use an external wastegate (although wil add more to budget) and a blow off is a must


if you are going to do it , start with 0.3 to 0.4 bar.. nothing more.. also you must have a digital wideband lambda and carefully monitor air to fuel ratio.. when you hammer it , afr must be 10-11.5 if higher its not safe

[cem_devecioglu]

and one more point, an old 2.5 or 3.0 engine crank case pressure will be excessive under boost.. stock crank case breather wont be enough. deffo will need modification

[Webby the Bear]

Ok, so in short if you decided to turbo an NA car whether it be an Omega or anything else, you need to consider:

Crankcase pressure - (presumably because you don't want excessive pressure getting in your turbo? And also presumably because this pressure could replace oil in the feed line and starve the turbo of vital lube?)

Compression ratio - an increase required (always?) to reduce combustion temps.

Cooling - i'm assuming standard cooling wouldn't be enough thus an upgrade of components like radiator would be required as well as a big fackin intercooler?

ECU upgrade? - would you need a new ECU that dealt with all aspects or could you simply give theturbo its own ECU?

Boost pressure - obviously you'd fit the necessary dump valve and your boost gauge. but how do you know whats enough / too much? or is this needing to bedone by a specialist tuner?

Headers - why are headers needed as opposed to a standard manifold?

One last thing.... how do autos affect turbos? I presume you wouldn't need a dump valve as the throttles never closing to change gear?

[cem_devecioglu]

Ok, so in short if you decided to turbo an NA car whether it be an Omega or anything else, you need to consider:

Crankcase pressure - (presumably because you don't want excessive pressure getting in your turbo? And also presumably because this pressure could replace oil in the feed line and starve the turbo of vital lube?)

Compression ratio - an increase required (always?) to reduce combustion temps.

Cooling - i'm assuming standard cooling wouldn't be enough thus an upgrade of components like radiator would be required as well as a big fackin intercooler?

ECU upgrade? - would you need a new ECU that dealt with all aspects or could you simply give theturbo its own ECU?

Boost pressure - obviously you'd fit the necessary dump valve and your boost gauge. but how do you know whats enough / too much? or is this needing to bedone by a specialist tuner?

Headers - why are headers needed as opposed to a standard manifold?

One last thing.... how do autos affect turbos? I presume you wouldn't need a dump valve as the throttles never closing to change gear?

crank case pressure cause serious problem Webby.. it throws your engine oil out, for that reason  you may need oil catch can and probably a return to sump depending on the amount


compression ratio- a dropped compression is desired in general but not obligatory under low boost.. the reason is early ignition in high compressions.. but can be avoided


Intercooler is necessary for cooling the hot air pumped by turbo or supercharger whatever..


instead of bigger radiator , increasing the coolant flow rate , lower temp thermostat and other precautions must be made imo


ECU upgrade.. it all depends  on the car, ecu model and boost level.. however I can say ecus designed to work with map sensor more suitable than the models designed to work with maf.. but ecu's with knock sensors is an advantage.. there are various ways to solve fuelling problem ..  new maps loaded onto ecu chip, piggyback fuel ecus, standalones..  it all depends on the application.. however, standalone ecus are expensive, not that competent to drive every detail on the car  and are mostly for track days


boost pressure normally is designed from the beginning and all components are choosen accordingly.. however on a NA engine the limits depend on the initial engine design.. trial error can be done but only by a specialist who have the right tools , have experience and engine specs are known.. my chance was that my clit engine was originally a rally design.. only the rods are a bit weak.. and it was done before me many times so I knew the limits..


headers- under boost engine outlet gas flow rate and temperature dermands are very high compared to NA.. if the hot gas can not be thrown properly cylinder temperatures increase and cause early ignition +detonation which is deadly for the engine.. although some cheapo turbo car builders choose to build log type exhaust manifolds, thats really far from ideal..  exhaust and cylinder temperatures increase dramatically causing short and long term problems .. so best way is to use equal length longer exhaust manifolds.. this also effect turbo and engine performance


when you back off from the accelerator pedal , the throttle will be closed so you will need blow off regardless of the tranny model.. but in any case I can say the tranny life will be shorter than you might think as the torque output is increased ..




also the drivetrain components will be stressed more than usual..


ps: an external oil cooler also will be desired

[Webby the Bear]

Cem. That's a really detailed explanation. Thanks so much for putting that info Down 

Ps, wat are all the vac lines for? One waste gate if mechanically operated  . What  other reasons?

Cheers mate

[cem_devecioglu]

Cem. That's a really detailed explanation. Thanks so much for putting that info Down 

Ps, wat are all the vac lines for? One waste gate if mechanically operated  . What  other reasons?

Cheers mate

starting with wastegate, it only limits the turbo pressure.. however from my experience wastegates on turbos cant drop the pressure enough.. there are also other models that are electronically controlled and easier to use..


and about vacuum lines, normally, westinghouse , fuel regulator , fuel vents coming from fuel tank and crank gases depends on the vacuum from the inlet created by cylinder movement on a NA car.. however when you start boosting things change.. first problem is idle valve , you need a check valve to protect it  from pressure.. most westinghouse models have a checkvalve in front already but you may add another.. fuel regulators must already be changed with a variable one which cant resist that pressure.. and fuel ventilation from tank must be behind a check valve too..  crank ventilation still is a problem.. normal official procedures require you to connect to the inlet before turbo after oil is filtered but thats not an easy task

[cem_devecioglu]

and last point which causes a big headache to tuners, oil catch can sump return line must be connected to the nearest point of oil pump..  so it creates a suction otherwise crank case pressure pushes the oil back

[Taxi_Driver]

If your worried about delay lag on a turbo.....perhaps look at superchargers, as Al mentioned...

Merc use them.....seen the word Kompresser on the back of a merc? = supercharger, which is basically a turbo that spins all the time, so no delay lag when you hit the large pedal 

[cem_devecioglu]

although small/medium size turbos nowadays have nearly no lag , the big models still have but they are only for special purposes..  also there are vnt type turbos thats controlled by the ecu which has no lag




but as I said before turbo selection requires calculation.. if properly choosen your boost will start to come around 2k and full boost before near 3k rpm..  some brands like vw choose to supercharge low rpms and turbo high rpms

[cem_devecioglu]

you may find this explanative


http://www.sr20-forum.com/information-library/44727-crank-case-ventilation-fully-explained-turbocharged-edition.html

[Diamond Black Geezer]

I don't know how much you're looking to spend on this project, but have you considered just fitting an engine from a Turbocharged Vauxhall? There's so much to choose from, all of which are (reasonably) bolt in straightforward. Basically they're all versions of the same four pot 2.0 as fitted to the Omega. There's plenty of issues to overcome, of course. Ignition, looms, etc... But they're only the same issues that everyone overcomes with an engine swap. There's people fitting the V6 transversely in Corsas etc.. so it's all doable. You'd also have the benefit of a nice V6 engine to sell, to help fund the project.

This sold on ebay a short wile ago.. just a thought...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1999-SAAB-93-SE-2-0-TURBO-tax-amp-mot-NO-RESERVE-redtop-vauxhall-conversion-etc-/221547730826?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item339546178a&nma=true&si=LyLSKRaRYxQT7Mx1Fv1rA6UmWEk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

My logic being it's a lot easier to tune up a turbo'd engine to a level you like, remaps, upping the boost, etc.. than actually redesign and rebuild an engine sump-up to accept a turbo it was never meant to.

[cem_devecioglu]

imo easiest swap will be C20LET but they are starting to be rare and expensive


but whatever the way choosen, engine swap or turbo the NA , it will expensive in the end




although the labor and part prices in my country is far from UK,


total sum was more than 5KŁ to turbo a 4 pot 1.6 engine.. 


higher flow injectors, garret turbo, full stainless exhaust pipes, tubular exhaust maniflold, 310 steel flanges, custom steel inlet manifold,  check valves, blow off, cone air filter,intercooler, silicon pipes, var fuel pressure regulator, oil catch tank, aem wideband lambda and gauge,defi exhaust temperature sensor, defi turbo boost sensor and gauge etc etc.. (all of them brand new)


also a lot of work had to be done here and there..

[Webby the Bear]

Thanks again for all info boys

It's not something I'm panning on doing but I just wanted to understand wat happens in a turbo upgrade project. The answer. . . A lot appears 

As I only ever saw a turbo the other day I may purchase a spares or repairs tdi to play with