Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Entwood on 27 November 2017, 09:41:53
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Seems like the owners of prestige marque cars are going to have to go back to basics....
Krooklok to sell anyone ?? :)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-42132804/relay-crime-theft-caught-on-camera
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.. and all because the stupid owners are too lazy to press a button on the remote. ::)
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Absolutely, keyless entry.
The box pretends to be the car and gets a code from the remote, it then pretends to be the key and sends the code(s) to the car.
There is a lot to be said for a system that requires a manual input to transmit the codes.
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.. and all because the stupid owners are too lazy to press a button on the remote. ::)
Might be a little harsh on the owners ;) More like the manufacturers assume the owners are too lazy..
(I mean - in this case maybe they are, maybe they aren't..)
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This was on watchdog earlier in the year, same piece of footage as well.
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.. and all because the stupid owners are too lazy to press a button on the remote. ::)
Might be a little harsh on the owners ;) More like the manufacturers assume the owners are too lazy..
(I mean - in this case maybe they are, maybe they aren't..)
OK. Maybe there should have been a "perceived to be" in there somewhere. The point is, it wouldn't have taken a genius to figure out that they were in the process of developing a completely insecure security system. Then again, it looks like a German car, developed where there is no "outside the box". ;D
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Yup, I de-specced Keyless Entry from my M140i for this very reason.
That said, if someone knows what they're doing and wants your car, its as good as gone. I'd rather a remote scanner than someone come into my house for the keys. ::)
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I imagine his insurance company will say it is impossible to steal a modern car without the key........therefore. :'( :'(
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I imagine his insurance company will say it is impossible to steal a modern car without the key........therefore. :'( :'(
Recovery vehicle, just winch it on.
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I imagine his insurance company will say it is impossible to steal a modern car without the key........therefore. :'( :'(
Recovery vehicle, just winch it on.
From the voice of experience?
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Benefit of Omega ownership, have to actually press button, nothing to capture.
That and no bugger would steal an Omega today, worthless things :D ;D
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I imagine his insurance company will say it is impossible to steal a modern car without the key........therefore. :'( :'(
Recovery vehicle, just winch it on.
From the voice of experience?
Oi, you, I expect that from some of the more ignorant members on here, who have no idea that 99.9% of scousers are law abiding citizens, but you should know better. ;D
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I imagine his insurance company will say it is impossible to steal a modern car without the key........therefore. :'( :'(
Recovery vehicle, just winch it on.
From the voice of experience?
Oi, you, I expect that from some of the more ignorant members on here, who have no idea that 99.9% of scousers are law abiding citizens, but you should know better. ;D
Er...that may be a slightly optimistic estimate. :)
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This is rife around where I live, in fact that cctv clip is from round by us. Thankfully no one looks twice at 14 year old Omega's and VW tat but I still keep a crook lock on the ones that don't get much use and sit in the drive.
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.. and all because the stupid owners are too lazy to press a button on the remote. ::)
Might be a little harsh on the owners ;) More like the manufacturers assume the owners are too lazy..
(I mean - in this case maybe they are, maybe they aren't..)
OK. Maybe there should have been a "perceived to be" in there somewhere. The point is, it wouldn't have taken a genius to figure out that they were in the process of developing a completely insecure security system. Then again, it looks like a German car, developed where there is no "outside the box". ;D
It would appear that the system is a single code which unlocks and disables the immobiliser.
I would have expected an RF system for unlock and then a separate near field setup for the immobiliser (ala the Omega one but extended to circa 1-2m range), clearly not!
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Yup, I de-specced Keyless Entry from my M140i for this very reason.
That said, if someone knows what they're doing and wants your car, its as good as gone. I'd rather a remote scanner than someone come into my house for the keys. ::)
This what has happened to one chap, posts and gate at the end of the drive, crooklock etc, they just kicked the front door in, held a knife against the daughters throat and demanded all the keys.
Basically the Police know the teams (always in three's, driving in high spec Golf's and Audi's with false plates and balaclavad up) but all the local Police stations are now closed and we have minimal police around.
One chap had a brand new Merc he'd just got out of at a local Costa and as he refused to hand the keys over they hit him across the head three times with a scaffold pole.....
Really not worth having a prestige or fast car these days.
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I imagine his insurance company will say it is impossible to steal a modern car without the key........therefore. :'( :'(
Recovery vehicle, just winch it on.
From the voice of experience?
Oi, you, I expect that from some of the more ignorant members on here, who have no idea that 00.9% of scousers are law abiding citizens, but you should know better. ;D
You tell him Steve. :y
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It would appear that the system is a single code which unlocks and disables the immobiliser.
I would have expected an RF system for unlock and then a separate near field setup for the immobiliser (ala the Omega one but extended to circa 1-2m range), clearly not!
Yep, and proximity to the fob is presumably only established by signal strength. Unbelievable.
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Suggest putting these keys far away from the front door, or in some lined box which limits the range.
Guess they would just break in, but might put off the ones who just do a scan outside
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Suggest putting these keys far away from the front door, or in some lined box which limits the range.
Guess they would just break in, but might put off the ones who just do a scan outside
The keys for the Skoda work from about 50yds away (half way down my street!) as I know from when I squished them in my pocket.. that said, one set stays in my jeans (and so lives in the bedroom at night) and the other sets live in a steel box in a location not immediately obvious.
The steel box wouldn't stop someone who physically found it - a medium screwdriver would pry it open - but should stop a relay attack.
Of course, they'd probably just break in to the house, like they did up the road at 4am, and ransack the place for the keys. My male bravado says I'd obviously take them all in hand to hand combat and they'd leave with broken bones..
..reality says I'd be cowering in the bedroom trying to dial 999 in the vain hope the fuzz turned up before they'd left, and hope they leave with the keys and car without stabbing me and the Mrs!
(But maybe the big barking Staffie would put them off a bit)
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My wife’s captur has this keyless entry, do you think I should take measures to protect it from high tech theives? ;D ;D
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Suggest putting these keys far away from the front door, or in some lined box which limits the range.
Guess they would just break in, but might put off the ones who just do a scan outside
The keys for the Skoda work from about 50yds away (half way down my street!) as I know from when I squished them in my pocket.. that said, one set stays in my jeans (and so lives in the bedroom at night) and the other sets live in a steel box in a location not immediately obvious.
The steel box wouldn't stop someone who physically found it - a medium screwdriver would pry it open - but should stop a relay attack.
Of course, they'd probably just break in to the house, like they did up the road at 4am, and ransack the place for the keys. My male bravado says I'd obviously take them all in hand to hand combat and they'd leave with broken bones..
..reality says I'd be cowering in the bedroom trying to dial 999 in the vain hope the fuzz turned up before they'd left, and hope they leave with the keys and car without stabbing me and the Mrs!
(But maybe the big barking Staffie would put them off a bit)
Or the manufacturers could invent a system that can't be defeated by a 12 year old.
We can put a man on the moon so................. :-\
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Suggest putting these keys far away from the front door, or in some lined box which limits the range.
Guess they would just break in, but might put off the ones who just do a scan outside
The keys for the Skoda work from about 50yds away (half way down my street!) as I know from when I squished them in my pocket.. that said, one set stays in my jeans (and so lives in the bedroom at night) and the other sets live in a steel box in a location not immediately obvious.
The steel box wouldn't stop someone who physically found it - a medium screwdriver would pry it open - but should stop a relay attack.
Of course, they'd probably just break in to the house, like they did up the road at 4am, and ransack the place for the keys. My male bravado says I'd obviously take them all in hand to hand combat and they'd leave with broken bones..
..reality says I'd be cowering in the bedroom trying to dial 999 in the vain hope the fuzz turned up before they'd left, and hope they leave with the keys and car without stabbing me and the Mrs!
(But maybe the big barking Staffie would put them off a bit)
Or the manufacturers could invent a system that can't be defeated by a 12 year old.
We can put a man on the moon so................. :-\
I think you’re being a bit harsh. A ‘professional’ car thief will always find a way past the security. Dealers must be able to circumvent security to help you get into your own car, and there are ways of finding out just how they do it.
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Wonder where I could buy one of these, I know a very nice red XF-R that some old duffer has.
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eBay, probably!
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I think you’re being a bit harsh. A ‘professional’ car thief will always find a way past the security. Dealers must be able to circumvent security to help you get into your own car, and there are ways of finding out just how they do it.
That's no excuse for the manufacturers to be lazy, though.
If you're going to have electronic security these days (on anything, not just a car) you need to be aware that it's straightforward to hack a minimal implementation such as this. The tools of the trade are available everywhere and plenty of people are motivated, if only by curiosity, to use them and expose weaknesses.
Fixing this issue wouldn't be rocket science and probably wouldn't cost much, if anything, other than a little development effort.
In the 1970's people laughed at cars that could be opened with a 2p coin in the door lock. This is the 21st century equivalent, but, because the systems aren't widely understood, everyone assumes it's not down to total ineptitude on the part of the manufacturer. ::)
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The video streams Sky and NOW TV use have heavy amounts of DRM encryption, to protect the content we have.
I don't see why these remote's don't do more authentication, some form of encryption key between the two, that should be unique to the car. Small things like ok the key opens the car, but before the engine starts, rotate the electronic key to a different variable, get the remote to respond and validate it with the car.
Or proper two way authentication, value passed to the car from remote, then back again to the remote say encrypted, to be be decrypted, validated, rotated again and then back again to the car. Throw in another random element of primary key that is again rotated/random via an uplink to the manufacture (Car 4G link) and would make things damn site harder.
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Problem is, these thieves do not care if they want the vehicle, if they can't clone the key they just do as I've posted above, they know that with all the local Police stations closed down now the police response is hours away, in some cases days!
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Given lot of cars have mobile Apps these days, should be a 'stolen mode' - So yeah if the car is nicked, you should be able ring or use app to disable the car.
Lock all doors, shut down everything.
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The keys for the Skoda work from about 50yds away (half way down my street!)
The Jag has a range of at least 300yrds in the open. Don't ask how I know this, or if it was pissing with rain, or if the boot can't be remotely closed ::)
But then the fob does weigh about 3.5 tonnes.
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Given lot of cars have mobile Apps these days, should be a 'stolen mode' - So yeah if the car is nicked, you should be able ring or use app to disable the car.
Lock all doors, shut down everything.
Better to fry the bastids with several 1000 volts through the seat, would slowly solve the problem one by one.
Oh and locking the doors won't beat them, they are tooled up with those glass breaking hammers that you can buy to break double glazing panels.
The teams of them driving round our area plan the vehicles they are going to steal in advance and watch the owners movements over time. The vile gits even pointed to a pregnant ladies stomach and the scaffold pole they were holding to get an A3 a couple of weeks ago.... This is a crime spree that isn't going to go away any time soon, it's rife in Solihull where I live and it'll be happening everywhere else too where there is an abundance of prestige / sports cars and closed down police stations and little active policing.
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The video streams Sky and NOW TV use have heavy amounts of DRM encryption, to protect the content we have.
I don't see why these remote's don't do more authentication, some form of encryption key between the two, that should be unique to the car. Small things like ok the key opens the car, but before the engine starts, rotate the electronic key to a different variable, get the remote to respond and validate it with the car.
Or proper two way authentication, value passed to the car from remote, then back again to the remote say encrypted, to be be decrypted, validated, rotated again and then back again to the car. Throw in another random element of primary key that is again rotated/random via an uplink to the manufacture (Car 4G link) and would make things damn site harder.
Its only as strong as the weakest link. As you know, you laden Uncle R's stuff with DRM, so people who want Uncle R's content without paying just find an easier way, and we all know its rife. And no house is secure...
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The keys for the Skoda work from about 50yds away (half way down my street!)
The Jag has a range of at least 300yrds in the open. Don't ask how I know this, or if it was pissing with rain, or if the boot can't be remotely closed ::)
But then the fob does weigh about 3.5 tonnes.
;D ;D At least the Skoda will close the boot from the key! Not from inside, though, annoyingly - if you hit the button on the centre console and open the boot, you have to get out to close it again ::) ::)
Guess whose handbag has a habit of hitting stuff in the centre console? (Not mine, before you ask, I don't carry one ;D )
Oh, and: https://twitter.com/josephfcox/status/935189993630392322
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The video streams Sky and NOW TV use have heavy amounts of DRM encryption, to protect the content we have.
Maybe so, but a neighbour of mine has a box, that he can watch all sky channels and doesnt pay sky a penny....
I think it works by connecting to a server to get an encryption key.....when sky block that key, it just connects to the server to get another encryption key .... ::)
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Yep, I'm sure there is some key exchange / encryption between car and fob. The problem is, if the only way the car can tell that the fob is in the car is by signal strength, you can insert yourself as a man in the middle by just transparently passing the data while upping the signal strength. ;D
It needs to analyse the round trip delay of the signal as well, but that's down in the nanoseconds, so probably filed under "too hard". Not too hard for a GPS receiver, mind.
Not sure why they don't keep pinging the key for a few minutes, and, if it disappears after the car has driven off, play a "Sorry, Michael" announcement, then shut down the car and lock it. ;D
Anything else requires physically moving the key whilst in the car, also "too hard" now millennials are starting to buy cars. ::)
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My wife’s captur has this keyless entry, do you think I should take measures to protect it from high tech theives? ;D ;D
It,s a Renault, not worth protecting. ;D Did i say i hated Renaults? :P
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My wife’s captur has this keyless entry, do you think I should take measures to protect it from high tech theives? ;D ;D
It,s a Renault, not worth protecting. ;D Did i say i hated Renaults? :P
Quite right, Ron. Give us a sixteen year old vauxhall any day. ;D
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My key lives in a `Faraday` pouch when not in use and is very effective at blocking signals and I also have a 4" square security post in the middle of my drive as physical security, and my spare lives a few miles away, well out of range.
I also take the fob to work with me so it isn`t at home when I`m not but if they really want it they will get it, i`ll just make them work for it :y
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My wife’s captur has this keyless entry, do you think I should take measures to protect it from high tech theives? ;D ;D
It,s a Renault, not worth protecting. ;D Did i say i hated Renaults? :P
Quite right, Ron. Give us a sixteen year old vauxhall any day. ;D
The only Renault i have ever driven (hired) broke down after 20 miles. Never been let down by my Omegas in over 10 years. Going to Daventry on Friday, hope i havn,t jinxed it. ;D
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My wife’s captur has this keyless entry, do you think I should take measures to protect it from high tech theives? ;D ;D
It,s a Renault, not worth protecting. ;D Did i say i hated Renaults? :P
Quite right, Ron. Give us a sixteen year old vauxhall any day. ;D
The only Renault i have ever driven (hired) broke down after 20 miles. Never been let down by my Omegas in over 10 years. Going to Daventry on Friday, hope i havn,t jinxed it. ;D
Well that’s it then. Every Renault must be crap.
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Keep your keys in a faraday cage cum key cabinet. These devices are very easy to build and have some serious range to them. Some that I have seen in tests have been able to reach in to a large car park form inside the supermarket.
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Some that I have seen in tests have been able to reach in to a large car park form inside the supermarket.
So potentially Lord Opti could be walking away from his car in the car park at Waitrose, and someone nearby could scan the key in his pocket and have away with the Jag! ::)
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My wife’s captur has this keyless entry, do you think I should take measures to protect it from high tech theives? ;D ;D
It,s a Renault, not worth protecting. ;D Did i say i hated Renaults? :P
Quite right, Ron. Give us a sixteen year old vauxhall any day. ;D
The only Renault i have ever driven (hired) broke down after 20 miles. Never been let down by my Omegas in over 10 years. Going to Daventry on Friday, hope i havn,t jinxed it. ;D
Well that’s it then. Every Renault must be crap.
:y ;) ;)
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Some that I have seen in tests have been able to reach in to a large car park form inside the supermarket.
So potentially Lord Opti’s chauffeur could be walking away from his car in the car park at Waitrose, and someone nearby could scan the key in his pocket and have away with the Jag! ::)
Fixed :y
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Some that I have seen in tests have been able to reach in to a large car park form inside the supermarket.
So potentially Lord Opti’s chauffeur could be walking away from his car in the car park at Fortnum & Mason, and someone nearby could scan the key in his pocket and have away with the Jag! ::)
Fixed :y
And fixed again. :y :D
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Well that’s it then. Every Renault must be crap.
I've had maybe 3-4 over the past couple of years as hire cars. Bit plasticky inside and styling wasn't for me, but no better or worse than any other car at their respective price points.
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Keep your keys in a faraday cage cum key cabinet. These devices are very easy to build and have some serious range to them. Some that I have seen in tests have been able to reach in to a large car park form inside the supermarket.
And they're extremely accessible, too. How does $22 sound? (old article, you'll have seen it already, but others might not) https://www.wired.com/2017/04/just-pair-11-radio-gadgets-can-steal-car/
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Keep your keys in a faraday cage cum key cabinet. These devices are very easy to build and have some serious range to them. Some that I have seen in tests have been able to reach in to a large car park form inside the supermarket.
And they're extremely accessible, too. How does $22 sound? (old article, you'll have seen it already, but others might not) https://www.wired.com/2017/04/just-pair-11-radio-gadgets-can-steal-car/
So fooking easy. :-\
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Some that I have seen in tests have been able to reach in to a large car park form inside the supermarket.
So potentially Lord Opti could be walking away from his car in the car park at Waitrose, and someone nearby could scan the key in his pocket and have away with the Jag! ::)
We do use Waitrose. :)
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My wife’s captur has this keyless entry, do you think I should take measures to protect it from high tech theives? ;D ;D
It,s a Renault, not worth protecting. ;D Did i say i hated Renaults? :P
Quite right, Ron. Give us a sixteen year old vauxhall any day. ;D
The only Renault i have ever driven (hired) broke down after 20 miles. Never been let down by my Omegas in over 10 years. Going to Daventry on Friday, hope i havn,t jinxed it. ;D
Well that’s it then. Every Renault must be crap.
Sarcastic old bugger. ;D
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Some that I have seen in tests have been able to reach in to a large car park form inside the supermarket.
So potentially Lord Opti could be walking away from his car in the car park at Waitrose, and someone nearby could scan the key in his pocket and have away with the Jag! ::)
We do use Waitrose. :)
A sure sign of being lower middle class, financially comfortable and left leaning. :y ;D
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Some that I have seen in tests have been able to reach in to a large car park form inside the supermarket.
So potentially Lord Opti could be walking away from his car in the car park at Waitrose, and someone nearby could scan the key in his pocket and have away with the Jag! ::)
We do use Waitrose. :)
A sure sign of being lower middle class, financially comfortable and left leaning. :y ;D
I've never understood the difference between lower middle class, middle class, and upper middle class. :)
Perhaps you could enlighten me, Mr Bitz. ;)
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I think it's whether you shop in Waitrose, Marks & Spencer or Harrods..
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Don't ask me, I'm from the underclass. Even working class people avoid me. :)
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I think it's whether you shop in Waitrose, Marks & Spencer or Harrods..
Well, I often use Lidl or Aldi so that must make me lower working class.
It's all balls. :)
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Don't ask me, I'm from the underclass. Even working class people avoid me. :)
This requires a caustic response.......something an elderly scouse reprobate would be good at. :)
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Don't ask me, I'm from the underclass. Even working class people avoid me. :)
This requires a caustic response.......something an elderly scouse reprobate would be good at. :)
It’s not him they avoid, I mean, who wouldn’t want to be in the company of an arthritic Irish immigrant. No...it’s the smell of his car that keeps them at bay. :)
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Oi ! I'm NOT Irish. >:( >:(
Otherwise, I cant disagree. ;D
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Oi ! I'm NOT Irish. >:( >:(
Otherwise, I cant disagree. ;D
What are you now then? A naturalised cockney? ;D
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British. Always have been, always will be. ::)
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British. Always have been, always will be. ::)
Nah, there’s a big bit of water between you and us, France is closer. ;D
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British. Always have been, always will be. ::)
Nah, there’s a big bit of water between you and us, France is closer. ;D
I believe he is fond of 'Frenchies'.
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British. Always have been, always will be. ::)
Nah, there’s a big bit of water between you and us, France is closer. ;D
I believe he is fond of 'Frenchies'.
Are you deaf? That’s french fries. ;D
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Some that I have seen in tests have been able to reach in to a large car park form inside the supermarket.
So potentially Lord Opti could be walking away from his car in the car park at Waitrose, and someone nearby could scan the key in his pocket and have away with the Jag! ::)
We do use Waitrose. :)
A sure sign of being lower middle class, financially comfortable and left leaning. :y ;D
lowe
I've never understood the difference between middle class, middle class, and upper middle class. :)
Perhaps you could enlighten me, Mr Bitz. ;)
Messers Cleese, Barker and Corbett sorted that one out on TWTWTW (I think :-\) Classic sketch :y
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I've never understood the difference between lower middle class, middle class, and upper middle class. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4QuSZ2Vvj4
Someone had to do it! :y
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Thanks Tig :y
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British. Always have been, always will be. ::)
Nah, there’s a big bit of water between you and us, France is closer. ;D
Your making the classic mistake of thinking that English and British are one and the same. ::)
And don't get me fickin started about France. :-X
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British. Always have been, always will be. ::)
Nah, there’s a big bit of water between you and us, France is closer. ;D
Your making the classic mistake of thinking that English and British are one and the same. ::)
And don't get me fickin started about France. :-X
I’m not making any mistakes, Paddy. You’re Irish and I’m English, and never the Twain shall meet. And you’re even more foreign than the Jocks and the Taffs, cause they’re joined on like :P ;D ;D