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Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Sir Tigger QC on 04 December 2017, 23:15:09

Title: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 04 December 2017, 23:15:09
Well Arlene Foster absolutely pissed on Theresa May's parade today!  ;D

In fact I think that she's my new heroine for putting a stop to the clusteropps that TM was about to sign up to!  :y

Maybe we should change the national anthym to 'Come on Arlene' set to the Dexy Midnight Runners tune!  :)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Andy B on 04 December 2017, 23:22:11
Poor old Johnny Ray ......  :y
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: ronnyd on 04 December 2017, 23:37:31
She,s uglier than Jimmy Krankie.  ;D
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 05 December 2017, 00:27:57
Lord Opti would!  :y
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 05 December 2017, 00:39:36
Westminster politicians have tried time and time again to stitch up / con Northern Ireland politicians. They have always failed with one notable exception, which was Blair and I will never know how he managed it.
I will never know what possessed Theresa May to think she was going to get away with it today, in such a very obvious way. . Some combination of desperation and wishful thinking ?
She has given in to the EU at every opportunity so far, and proved she isn't fit to serve the tea in Downing St. never mind run the country.Of course the alternative is unthinkable ,so she is safe for the moment, but as soon as there is an opportune moment, the Tories will throw her under a passingbus in their usual ruthless manner.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Rods2 on 05 December 2017, 00:51:52
Westminster politicians have tried time and time again to stitch up / con Northern Ireland politicians. They have always failed with one notable exception, which was Blair and I will never know how he managed it.
I will never know what possessed Theresa May to think she was going to get away with it today, in such a very obvious way. . Some combination of desperation and wishful thinking ?
She has given in to the EU at every opportunity so far, and proved she isn't fit to serve the tea in Downing St. never mind run the country.Of course the alternative is unthinkable ,so she is safe for the moment, but as soon as there is an opportune moment, the Tories will throw her under a passingbus in their usual ruthless manner.

Another failure by Office Junior May. When she went into politics somebody from Tory HQ should have taken her to one side and said sorry but the job requires a greater intellect than stamping pass or fail on a stationary request form for a biro and dressing up as the office bimbo. :-[ :-[ :-[
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: STEMO on 05 December 2017, 07:02:35
So.....apart from a hard border, which Eire would veto.....what’s the answer? TM is between a rock and hard place on this one and, whatever turns out to be the solution, it’s always going to be an unworkable compromise.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Varche on 05 December 2017, 08:58:32
So.....apart from a hard border, which Eire would veto.....what’s the answer? TM is between a rock and hard place on this one and, whatever turns out to be the solution, it’s always going to be an unworkable compromise.

Yes, what is the answer? 

On a positive note maybe the NI economy will really take off as its special place make it a great place for business to go and operate. A sort of spring board to the promised land. ( EU or rest of UK depending on your view)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: aaronjb on 05 December 2017, 09:05:56
I can't see an answer; all I can see is us getting bent over without the grace of some KY to ease the pain.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 05 December 2017, 09:06:29
The answer to the Irish border lies in a free trade agreement, which apparently the EU don't want because they seem to think we are turning into some sort of pariah state.  ::)

So in my opinion TM should now put it in writing to the EU and the ROI that the UK has absolutely no intention of erecting a hard border and that solutions to the problem should be explored as part of trade negotiations.  If the EU and the ROI decide to put up a border, then that is their decision and they will be held responsible for the consequences!  ::)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 05 December 2017, 09:07:17
Eire cant veto the UK installing a hard border, but it could result in a No Deal with the EU.
The answer is as usual a fudge. A soft, not very secure border, as long as its not soft enough to be completely insecure for the really important things - very high levels of illegal migrants and terrorism.
They would need to come up with some form of words to sell this as a political masterstroke brought about by the collective geniuses involved, but that shouldn't be a problem for them.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: STEMO on 05 December 2017, 10:56:43
The best solution all round, would be for Eire to also leave the EU, then we could all have a nice cup of tea  ;D
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 05 December 2017, 10:59:21
There are plenty of solutions to the border issue, with technology, Trusted Trader schemes, registration schemes for local residents etc, but as we all know the EU are inflexible, intransigent and unimaginative.  ::)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: STEMO on 05 December 2017, 11:01:55
How long till it gets to the ‘who cares?’ stage? The EU may, indeed, be everything you described, Tigger, but one thing they are really good at is the long game. They will bore us into submission.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Kevin Wood on 05 December 2017, 11:02:52
The best solution all round, would be for Eire to also leave the EU, then we could all have a nice cup of tea  ;D

I'm surprised this hasn't come up given that the EU appears to have done nothing but defecate upon their economy from a great height since their joining. Perhaps they're worried they'll need a bail out one day? Then again, that didn't go too well for Greece...
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 05 December 2017, 11:11:28
Eire will leave the EU at some point (as will everyone else) but they wont be the next domino to fall. That will probably be in the East.
I have just read an article - in The Mail as it happens - which throws a slightly different light on the matter.
It claims that the agreement which was almost reached yesterday was actually for Norn Irn and the Republic to be aligned only to the degree which is already set out in the Belfast agreement.
Dublin then got mischievous and couldn't help but try to turn it into a power grab over Norn Irn. So they leaked to all and sundry that both parts of Ireland would become aligned with each other in a much deeper way.
Had they got away with it, it would have been a great victory from their point f view, but of course Arlene was never going to roll over and let that happen.
This version makes more sense to me than having to accept that May and those around her arent just incompetent, but utterly retarded and more naïve than a new born baby.
It might all come out in the wash - eventually.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: STEMO on 05 December 2017, 11:18:21
Eire will leave the EU at some point (as will everyone else) but they wont be the next domino to fall. That will probably be in the East.
I have just read an article - in The Mail as it happens - which throws a slightly different light on the matter.
It claims that the agreement which was almost reached yesterday was actually for Norn Irn and the Republic to be aligned only to the degree which is already set out in the Belfast agreement.
Dublin then got mischievous and couldn't help but try to turn it into a power grab over Norn Irn. So they leaked to all and sundry that both parts of Ireland would become aligned with each other in a much deeper way.
Had they got away with it, it would have been a great victory from their point f view, but of course Arlene was never going to roll over and let that happen.
This version makes more sense to me than having to accept that May and those around her arent just incompetent, but utterly retarded and more naïve than a new born baby.
It might all come out in the wash - eventually.
Yes, just wait until one of the ministers involved is ‘reshuffled’.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 05 December 2017, 12:32:08
I think Arlene is the only politician in the UK at the moment with any backbone!  :y
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 05 December 2017, 12:37:40
Being British means a lot to people in Norn Irn. They paid for it with a lot of blood in the recent past and aren't going to see it eroded by spineless fackwits in Westminster or Brussels.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: STEMO on 05 December 2017, 12:45:06
I think Arlene is the only politician in the UK at the moment with any backbone!  :y
She really is the stereotypical, hard-faced Irish matriarch. I wouldn’t argue with her.  ;D
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 05 December 2017, 13:16:24
I can't see an answer; all I can see is us getting bent over without the grace of some KY to ease the pain.

You seem to know far more than is good for you about 'taking it up the wrong un' Aaaron. :-X ;)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: aaronjb on 05 December 2017, 13:28:49
I can't see an answer; all I can see is us getting bent over without the grace of some KY to ease the pain.

You seem to know far more than is good for you about 'taking it up the wrong un' Aaaron. :-X ;)

I have never fished that side of the pond  ;D
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Kevin Wood on 05 December 2017, 13:34:18
Don't forget that once everyone in Ireland is happy we've got Gibraltar to sort out. ;D That must be next week's job in the never ending fustercluck that is BREXIT. ::)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Varche on 05 December 2017, 13:41:31
We are crawling inexorably towards a no deal. That of course is what both sides saw as the conclusion right from the start. At the eleventh hour there will be hurried talks to try and put something in place regarding rights of EU/UK nationals plus a few other issues which no one has talked about yet.

Then there will be the EXbrexit where it is all turned on its head and bingo Britain will be back in the EU it never really left but forever subservient and on worse terms than before. The remainers will be overjoyed, Brexiteers will be overjoyed at not having to pay the never disclosed divorce bill and most importantly the EU will have its cash cow injecting money into the Eu to spend on Eastern Europe.
Result alround. Give it another forty years and the current youth will realise and then they will vote leave ........ I see a pattern emerging ;D

PS will we have a Dunkirk style evacuation to repatriate us expats caught in the cold in the event of a no deal? Hercules, Mustangs, Dakotas - anything that can fly even those in museums. People like Kevin W will be pressed into flying. One in three families will be forced to find a spare room for us. The Social Services will buckle under the cost and manpower requirements to administer us all.   
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Varche on 05 December 2017, 13:43:14
Don't forget that once everyone in Ireland is happy we've got Gibraltar to sort out. ;D That must be next week's job in the never ending fustercluck that is BREXIT. ::)

Well we will never give that up. Kevin. Do you think you will be able to pilot the rescue planes I mentioned in and out of Gib?
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: STEMO on 05 December 2017, 13:43:58
We WILL be leaving........and you will not be repatriated, Señor.  :)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Varche on 05 December 2017, 13:47:28
We WILL be leaving........and you will not be repatriated, Señor.  :)

Oh OK.

But a lot have already left for the Uk purely down to the poorer exchange rate and the writing was on the wall. A lot were neither here nor there types living a life hoping that if they fell ill someone would treat them for free. In the event of a no deal and no reciprocal healhcare agreements a lot more will have to leave as the monthly cost woud be prohibitive. That is a real problem for a lot of expats in Europe including Spain.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Kevin Wood on 05 December 2017, 13:48:35
Don't forget that once everyone in Ireland is happy we've got Gibraltar to sort out. ;D That must be next week's job in the never ending fustercluck that is BREXIT. ::)

Well we will never give that up. Kevin. Do you think you will be able to pilot the rescue planes I mentioned in and out of Gib?

Baggsy the Dakota for me. Mmmm 14 cylinder radials. :-* Next best thing to no engines at all. What could possibly go wrong? ::)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 05 December 2017, 13:52:27
We WILL be leaving........and you will not be repatriated, Señor.  :)

I'm not quite sure what the definition of 'leaving the EU' is. :-\

Maybe we'll have a 'Leave Lite' brexit. One where we leave (sort of) but pay for access to the single market as well as giving 50 billion to the EU.

'Leave Lite' will probably mean we are still under the jurisdiction of the ECJ and have some notional control over movement of people but no absolute power to stop 'dark foreign johnnies' coming to the UK.

It's a total clusterf*ck. :-\
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 05 December 2017, 14:06:46
We WILL be leaving........and you will not be repatriated, Señor.  :)

Perhaps we could send a fleet of Omegas for El Varche!  :)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Varche on 05 December 2017, 14:09:56
We WILL be leaving........and you will not be repatriated, Señor.  :)

I'm not quite sure what the definition of 'leaving the EU' is. :-\

Maybe we'll have a 'Leave Lite' brexit. One where we leave (sort of) but pay for access to the single market as well as giving 50 billion to the EU.

'Leave Lite' will probably mean we are still under the jurisdiction of the ECJ and have some notional control over movement of people but no absolute power to stop 'dark foreign johnnies' coming to the UK.

It's a total clusterf*ck. :-\

For the definition of that you will need to ask Jeremey Corbyn. He will be the one at the helm after May's government collapses. What you have just described sounds suspiciously like the outcome Cameron SHOULD have come back with had the EU seen sense (some hope of that...) 
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: STEMO on 05 December 2017, 15:06:21
We WILL be leaving........and you will not be repatriated, Señor.  :)

Perhaps we could send a fleet of Omegas for El Varche!  :)
Could do. A couple of them might even get as far as Calais.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: TheBoy on 05 December 2017, 17:18:38
The answer to the Irish border lies in a free trade agreement, which apparently the EU don't want
Not so long as we have holes up our arses will we get a free trade agreement with the EU.  Anyone who ever suggested that this tiny, insignificant island ever would has other agendas to push, or is plain deranged.

We voted not to have a free trade relationship, and must now pay the consequences.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 05 December 2017, 18:12:49
So.....apart from a hard border, which Eire would veto.....what’s the answer? TM is between a rock and hard place on this one and, whatever turns out to be the solution, it’s always going to be an unworkable compromise.

Exactly right :y :y

All too many armchair critics have never had the experience of "negotiating" in either politics or business, but still think they are qualified to judge.

Negotiating means exactly that; starting off at each party's set position then discussing, considering, arguing, compromising, presenting the believed answer, only for a "NO" to be uttered and then the process starts again.  That is when there is just two or three parties involved, let alone 27 sets of countries politicians working on their own agenda's to reach their particular objective!

To get the answers, whatever they may be, will take time. ;)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 05 December 2017, 18:16:59
The answer to the Irish border lies in a free trade agreement, which apparently the EU don't want
Not so long as we have holes up our arses will we get a free trade agreement with the EU.  Anyone who ever suggested that this tiny, insignificant island ever would has other agendas to push, or is plain deranged.

We voted not to have a free trade relationship, and must now pay the consequences.

We don't have a free trade agreement with the EU as last year it cost us £13 billion to belong (less whatever they decide to spend in the UK) and this would have only increased.  Based on current growth rates our EU bill was projected to be £17 billion by 2022 after the rebate.  Which had we voted to remain, it's extremely doubtful whether we would have been able to have retained the rebate in the next round of EU budget talks.  ;)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Kevin Wood on 05 December 2017, 20:07:15
We don't have a free trade agreement with the EU as last year it cost us £13 billion to belong (less whatever they decide to spend in the UK) and this would have only increased.  Based on current growth rates our EU bill was projected to be £17 billion by 2022 after the rebate.  Which had we voted to remain, it's extremely doubtful whether we would have been able to have retained the rebate in the next round of EU budget talks.  ;)

Yes, and it was only going to be an "ever increasing" bill along with "ever closer" union as the EU took over more and more responsibilities. It was always going to end in tears one way or the other. If this is how that plays out, so be it. The tories just turned out to be the muppets who blinked first and offered a completely unworkable exit from it all. ;D
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: LC0112G on 05 December 2017, 21:48:19
The answer to the Irish border lies in a free trade agreement, which apparently the EU don't want
Not so long as we have holes up our arses will we get a free trade agreement with the EU.  Anyone who ever suggested that this tiny, insignificant island ever would has other agendas to push, or is plain deranged.

We voted not to have a free trade relationship, and must now pay the consequences.

We don't have a free trade agreement with the EU as last year it cost us £13 billion to belong (less whatever they decide to spend in the UK) and this would have only increased.

UK Nett contributions to the EU were around £9bn. For that we got tariff and tax "free" exports of around £240bn to other EU countries ( fact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/) If you treat all the £9bn as a payment for tariff "free" trade then it represents a 3.75% rate.

Assuming we can somehow agree a post Brexit tariff deal with the EU, how much do you think it's going to cost? I suspect it'll be a lot more than 9bn a year. WTO terms will be 10% on cars and a lot more on most agricultural stuff. And since much of the UK's exports are actually financial services which aren't covered by WTO it's impossible to know how much that could cost.

Still, the British public know what they're doing - what could possibly go wrong ::)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: STEMO on 05 December 2017, 22:06:44
The answer to the Irish border lies in a free trade agreement, which apparently the EU don't want
Not so long as we have holes up our arses will we get a free trade agreement with the EU.  Anyone who ever suggested that this tiny, insignificant island ever would has other agendas to push, or is plain deranged.

We voted not to have a free trade relationship, and must now pay the consequences.

We don't have a free trade agreement with the EU as last year it cost us £13 billion to belong (less whatever they decide to spend in the UK) and this would have only increased.

UK Nett contributions to the EU were around £9bn. For that we got tariff and tax "free" exports of around £240bn to other EU countries ( fact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/) If you treat all the £9bn as a payment for tariff "free" trade then it represents a 3.75% rate.

Assuming we can somehow agree a post Brexit tariff deal with the EU, how much do you think it's going to cost? I suspect it'll be a lot more than 9bn a year. WTO terms will be 10% on cars and a lot more on most agricultural stuff. And since much of the UK's exports are actually financial services which aren't covered by WTO it's impossible to know how much that could cost.

Still, the British public know what they're doing - what could possibly go wrong ::)
I don’t think the British public gave any of this even a passing thought. It was mostly about immigration and human rights and independence from the ECJ and..well.....just xenophobia really.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Varche on 05 December 2017, 23:24:38
And they didn't want to become a province of a federal Europe.

WTO, 10%. Are you saying that the cars and agricultural products we sell to Europe will be 10% more. ..?  The answer might be to knock off 10% before adding the 10% very approx.

Does it work the other way round? E.g. will BMW s be 10% more and will Spanish tomotoes be 10% more?
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: LC0112G on 06 December 2017, 01:33:50
The answer might be to knock off 10% before adding the 10% very approx.

You mean the producer of the goods has to make a 10% cut in the price they sell for, so that the EU can then mark the price up by 10% again? Not sure many manufacturers will be keen on that - depends on the profit margins but if they ain't making 10% profit to start with then they won't be able to cut their export price by 10%.

WTO, 10%. Are you saying that the cars and agricultural products we sell to Europe will be 10% more. ..?

Does it work the other way round? E.g. will BMW s be 10% more and will Spanish tomotoes be 10% more?

Cars are 10% more, so yes a car built in the UK will cost 10% more in mainland Europe after Brexit. And a car built in mainland Europe will cost 10% more in the UK after Brexit.

Agricultral products have much higher tariffs. Skimmed Milk is 74%, Butter 63%, Wheat 53%, Cheese 43%, Frozen Beef 160%.

Still, since it appears most farmers voted for Brexit then I assume they realise that it may have some effect on their exports, so won't be complaining too loudly if it bites them  ::)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: jimmy944 on 06 December 2017, 10:01:40
Still, since it appears most farmers voted for Brexit then I assume they realise that it may have some effect on their exports, so won't be complaining too loudly if it bites them  ::)

The biggest surprise for me is Welsh farmers voting for it, that lot have been on the EU gravy train for years, grants for fencing, sheds, farm machinery (including pick-ups, quads etc.). If they imagine they'll be getting the same share of the EU money "saved" by westminster, I suspect they're in for a rude awakening.  ::)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: LC0112G on 06 December 2017, 10:40:36
Still, since it appears most farmers voted for Brexit then I assume they realise that it may have some effect on their exports, so won't be complaining too loudly if it bites them  ::)

The biggest surprise for me is Welsh farmers voting for it, that lot have been on the EU gravy train for years, grants for fencing, sheds, farm machinery (including pick-ups, quads etc.). If they imagine they'll be getting the same share of the EU money "saved" by westminster, I suspect they're in for a rude awakening.  ::)

Indeed. And Milk farmers have been complaining for years about the price they are paid for their milk. All this talk about cheaper imports from outside the EU because we won't have to conform to the EU restrictions seems spurious to me.

If we charge WTO 74% then the price of imported milk from the EU goes up by that amount, but stuff from outside the EU already had that surcharge so wont change in price. Therefore the  UK price for milk will rise which will allow UK farmers to increase their price to the domestic market. But it means UK consumers pay more for their milk.

If we don't charge any tariff, then the EU price stays the same, but we could be flooded with milk from outside the EU which would have to have it's WTO surcharge removed. Good news for UK consumers and farmers outside the EU, but very bad news for UK farmers.

The same applies to all commodity products. Only speciality or premium products would be safe - If you were intending to buy a Merc, BMW or Audi then a 10% price increase is annoying but, would it be enough to persuade you to buy a UK built Nissan/Honda instead? Doubt it.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Varche on 06 December 2017, 10:57:41
The answer might be to knock off 10% before adding the 10% very approx.

You mean the producer of the goods has to make a 10% cut in the price they sell for, so that the EU can then mark the price up by 10% again? Not sure many manufacturers will be keen on that - depends on the profit margins but if they ain't making 10% profit to start with then they won't be able to cut their export price by 10%.

WTO, 10%. Are you saying that the cars and agricultural products we sell to Europe will be 10% more. ..?

Does it work the other way round? E.g. will BMW s be 10% more and will Spanish tomotoes be 10% more?

Cars are 10% more, so yes a car built in the UK will cost 10% more in mainland Europe after Brexit. And a car built in mainland Europe will cost 10% more in the UK after Brexit.

Agricultral products have much higher tariffs. Skimmed Milk is 74%, Butter 63%, Wheat 53%, Cheese 43%, Frozen Beef 160%.

Still, since it appears most farmers voted for Brexit then I assume they realise that it may have some effect on their exports, so won't be complaining too loudly if it bites them  ::)

Sorry I still don't understand.

Here is an example.

Germany makes a BMW to sell in UK for £100000 (keeping figures simple.)

Post leaving EU the car now costs £110,000. Who got the £10,000? (I am guessing the UK government)

UK farmer sells £1000 worth of beef to Portugal. It now costs £1600. Who got the £600?

My point is in a scenario like this I dare say the rules don't allow direct subsidies e.g. BMW get £10,000 for every car sold to the Uk , in effect allowing them to sell them for approx £90,000 each making them approx £100,000 still to the end user.

However I suspect there would be very little to stop a Uk government subsidising beef farmers on every kilo of beef sold to in effect negate the price hike on exports.

If the agricultural products are so much higher then that will badly affect mainland European farmers. Spain produces an awful lot of stuff for the UK market. I believe the French send a lot of milk.



I know a bit about olive oil and the price in Europe is artificially high to support farmers (as per Jimmy's example Spanish farmers get tremendous grant help. At the moment they are drilling wells using other peoples(our) money to irrigate olive trees).Morocco is a producer at a fraction of the price but EU rules don't allow very much import. There is a small amount due to the special Spain/Morocco relationship. So straight away there is a Morocco/Uk market for half price olive oil post exit. 
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: LC0112G on 06 December 2017, 11:20:36
Germany makes a BMW to sell in UK for £100000 (keeping figures simple.)

Post leaving EU the car now costs £110,000. Who got the £10,000? (I am guessing the UK government)
The UK govt would get the 10%. It's basically a tax on imports. The customer has to pay £110,000 for the car. HMG get £10K, BMW get £100K. The only way for BMW to keep the price to the customer at £100K would be for them to reduce their 'price' to £91K and then the HMG takes £9K making the cost to the customer £99K. Unlikely that BMW would adsorb all that so the price to the customer is likely to go up.

UK farmer sells £1000 worth of beef to Portugal. It now costs £1600. Who got the £600?
The WTO duty on beef is 160%, not £60%. So all of a sudden £1000 of UK beef costs the portugese consumer £2600. The Portugese govt gets the £1600 duty. However, are Portugese customers likely to continue to buy UK beef for £2600 when they could buy French beef for £1000? For the UK farmer to compete they would have to lower their 'price' from £1000 to £385, and the import duty (to the Portugese govt) would then be £615.

My point is in a scenario like this I dare say the rules don't allow direct subsidies e.g. BMW get £10,000 for every car sold to the Uk , in effect allowing them to sell them for approx £90,000 each making them approx £100,000 still to the end user.
Correct. the WTO rules don't allow subsidies like that. It's similar to the Bombardier/Boeing row over aircraft - the US accusing the Canadians of subsidising Bombardier and then imposing unilateral import tariffs.  Such subsidies can ultimately result in a full blown trade war.

However I suspect there would be very little to stop a Uk government subsidising beef farmers on every kilo of beef sold to in effect negate the price hike on exports.
Nothing that blatent is allowed under WTO rules. And anyway HMG subsidies actually means higher prices and taxes for UK tax payers like you? and me.

If the agricultural products are so much higher then that will badly affect mainland European farmers. Spain produces an awful lot of stuff for the UK market. I believe the French send a lot of milk.

I know a bit about olive oil and the price in Europe is artificially high to support farmers (as per Jimmy's example Spanish farmers get tremendous grant help. At the moment they are drilling wells using other peoples(our) money to irrigate olive trees).Morocco is a producer at a fraction of the price but EU rules don't allow very much import. There is a small amount due to the special Spain/Morocco relationship. So straight away there is a Morocco/Uk market for half price olive oil post exit.

Yup. If the UK is able to buy from the world market on equal trading rules then we will end up buying from the cheapest source. This could be bad news for EU farmers exporting into the UK if they aren't competitive on world terms. But it would also be bad for UK farmers exporting into the EU.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 06 December 2017, 11:55:00
When you look at where produce comes from while in the supermarket, there is an awful lot that comes from outside the EU.  ::)

For example I bought a bag of runner beans from Kenya for 78p in Tesco the other day, and presumably part of that 78p is the import duty that goes to Brussels. I think that if we do leave on a 'No Deal' basis, it will be interesting to see how our supermarkets react. ie will they just carry on importing from Spain etc and add the import duty to the end price, or will they actively go out and source produce from countries with a cheaper cost base, and feed that through to the consumer.  ::)  :-\

There is a lot of Irish meat and dairy products in our supermarkets, which will be devastating for their agricultural sector if tariffs are applied.  Which makes their approach to the border issue completely absurd, as in my view the only way we can keep that border open is through a trade agreement.  :y
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: LC0112G on 06 December 2017, 12:35:41
When you look at where produce comes from while in the supermarket, there is an awful lot that comes from outside the EU.  ::)

For example I bought a bag of runner beans from Kenya for 78p in Tesco the other day, and presumably part of that 78p is the import duty that goes to Brussels. I think that if we do leave on a 'No Deal' basis, it will be interesting to see how our supermarkets react. ie will they just carry on importing from Spain etc and add the import duty to the end price, or will they actively go out and source produce from countries with a cheaper cost base, and feed that through to the consumer.  ::)  :-\

There is a lot of Irish meat and dairy products in our supermarkets, which will be devastating for their agricultural sector if tariffs are applied.  Which makes their approach to the border issue completely absurd, as in my view the only way we can keep that border open is through a trade agreement.  :y

The duty goes to HMG, not Brussels.

Supermarkets will always source their commodity items from the cheapest place. Currently that's either UK, EU+no tariffs, or World+tariffs. Post Brexit, one of two things will happen :

1) No tariffs for anyone, which would be bad for UK and EU producers and good for World producers (and UK consumers) since the world producers goods get cheaper.
2) Same (WTO?) tariffs for everyone, which is good for UK domestic producers, but bad for UK consumers, UK exporters and EU producers but neutral for rest of the world producers.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Varche on 06 December 2017, 13:15:18
Thanks for those insights. It certainly helps with some practical examples.

My gut feeling is one of two things will happen.

1. Common sense will prevail and the EU and the Uk will come to a sensible agreement that doesn't upset the apple cart too much. In other words things will continue much the same as now. It could be called a common trading market.

2. The Apple cart is upset, some businesses might go under, prices rocket, shortages occur, GDP suffers particularly in Germany and the UK, inflation steps in, wage inflation  and more.

Of the two , based on talks so far option two is the racing certainty making ExBrexit all the more likely.   
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 06 December 2017, 13:54:18
When you look at where produce comes from while in the supermarket, there is an awful lot that comes from outside the EU.  ::)

For example I bought a bag of runner beans from Kenya for 78p in Tesco the other day, and presumably part of that 78p is the import duty that goes to Brussels. I think that if we do leave on a 'No Deal' basis, it will be interesting to see how our supermarkets react. ie will they just carry on importing from Spain etc and add the import duty to the end price, or will they actively go out and source produce from countries with a cheaper cost base, and feed that through to the consumer.  ::)  :-\

There is a lot of Irish meat and dairy products in our supermarkets, which will be devastating for their agricultural sector if tariffs are applied.  Which makes their approach to the border issue completely absurd, as in my view the only way we can keep that border open is through a trade agreement.  :y

The duty goes to HMG, not Brussels.

Supermarkets will always source their commodity items from the cheapest place. Currently that's either UK, EU+no tariffs, or World+tariffs. Post Brexit, one of two things will happen :

1) No tariffs for anyone, which would be bad for UK and EU producers and good for World producers (and UK consumers) since the world producers goods get cheaper.
2) Same (WTO?) tariffs for everyone, which is good for UK domestic producers, but bad for UK consumers, UK exporters and EU producers but neutral for rest of the world producers.

You are correct in that HMG collect the duties, but they then pay them on to Brussels (less 20% for costs) as part of our annual contribution to the EU.  ;)

When I said presumably, I was presuming that there is an import tariff on vegetables coming into the EU from Kenya, not that the money ended up in Brussels.  :y

Money ending up in Brussels is a given!  :P  ;D
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: LC0112G on 06 December 2017, 14:09:56
You are correct in that HMG collect the duties, but they then pay them on to Brussels (less 20% for costs) as part of our annual contribution to the EU.  ;)

Not sure if you're being obtuse or serious.

I CBA to look up what the duty is on Kenyan green beans, but lets suppose it's 40%. So of your 78p, 31p is duty, and 47p is the cost of the green beans (assuming Tescos take a negligible cut of the cost!). If a UK or EU producer can grow and supply the beans such that a supermarket can sell them for 47p, then you would buy those instead? Or if a UK or EU producer can grow and supply the beans such that a supermarket can sell them for 77p, then you would buy those instead? Would the UK's contribution to the EU then drop by 31p because there was still no duty payable?

There is no direct link between the import duties charged as a result of us being a member of the EU and our annual EU contributions, and pretending that it's all the EU's fault is wrongheaded. Yes the EU sets the tariffs, but the money is collected by HMG and goes into the same UK pot as VAT, Income tax, National Insurance, CGT, IPT etc, etc. 
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 06 December 2017, 14:59:03
Surely, if we're importing less, more of the domestic produce will remain in the domestic market, resulting in lower transport and storage costs, ergo nothing actually changes :-\
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Varche on 06 December 2017, 15:20:57
Surely, if we're importing less, more of the domestic produce will remain in the domestic market, resulting in lower transport and storage costs, ergo nothing actually changes :-\

Quite probably BUT the wheels will fall off the commerce bus not just in the UK but Europe and further afield if trade isn't continued to be grown. That is in no ones longer term interest. That is why I have always maintained common sense will prevail. Sadly you have politicians at the helm, many of which have no sense of commercial reality at business level or at household expense level. I see that on bbc website there is an article about German companies cannot wait for 2019 outcome and may have to change their investment strategies. Might be political posturing or might be reality. 
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 06 December 2017, 15:25:17
You are correct in that HMG collect the duties, but they then pay them on to Brussels (less 20% for costs) as part of our annual contribution to the EU.  ;)

Not sure if you're being obtuse or serious.

I CBA to look up what the duty is on Kenyan green beans, but lets suppose it's 40%. So of your 78p, 31p is duty, and 47p is the cost of the green beans (assuming Tescos take a negligible cut of the cost!). If a UK or EU producer can grow and supply the beans such that a supermarket can sell them for 47p, then you would buy those instead? Or if a UK or EU producer can grow and supply the beans such that a supermarket can sell them for 77p, then you would buy those instead? Would the UK's contribution to the EU then drop by 31p because there was still no duty payable?

There is no direct link between the import duties charged as a result of us being a member of the EU and our annual EU contributions, and pretending that it's all the EU's fault is wrongheaded. Yes the EU sets the tariffs, but the money is collected by HMG and goes into the same UK pot as VAT, Income tax, National Insurance, CGT, IPT etc, etc.

I'm being serious and there is absolutely a direct link between import duties and our annual EU contributions.  ::)

The three areas which form part of our contribution are:-

1) Import Duties.  Collected by HMRC and paid to the EU less 20% to cover the costs admin etc.  As you say it's probably paid into the general pot and paid to Brussels later.  There was a big row a couple of years ago when Brussels accused HMG of shortchanging them on the import duties that were due. I can't remember the details but I think they demanded £200-300 million extra and it turned out that the EU Commission were using a different method to calculate the amount due than the Treasury was.  I can't remember the outcome.  ::)

2) A percentage of Gross National Income, I think it's 0.7% but CBA to check.

3) A percentage of VAT receipts.  Don't know what that is and again I CBA to check.

I'm not pretending that anything is the EU's fault, my example with the Kenyan beans is more about the supermarkets behaviour.  I wonder if in a post BREXIT WTO world where tariffs are same whether my beans are coming from Kenya or Spain, will the supermarkets be complacent and carry on buying from their traditional suppliers or will they actively seek out cheaper new suppliers.  You say they will, I'm not so sure.  I hope they do as at the end of the day ordinary folk like you and me are stuck with whats on the shelves.  ;)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 06 December 2017, 16:14:02
There's another aspect to the whole thing...

Multinational companies trading around the globe to serve their customers regardless of borders... global consumer driven trade largely renders political markets null and void.

Perhaps if governments were run independently of business the whole system might work better... ie local* taxes paying for local services and facilities (schools/hospitals etc) :-\

*local meaning either nationally, regionally or by county.

Basically the government run the country and business runs the trade, and never the twain shall meet...
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: TheBoy on 06 December 2017, 20:57:58
Basically the government run the country and business runs the trade, and never the twain shall meet...
We know that can't work, as you will get one conglomerate destroy any competition.  No matter how misinformed and useless the UK regulators are, determined to bugger everything up (but then they are civil servants), they are a necessity.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 07 December 2017, 14:02:32
All this stuff will be irrelevant in the not too distant future as the whole thing will fall apart anyway.
The EU is about to sue three of its own member states for not taking in the number of 2asylum seekers" they were told to.
http://www.westmonster.com/eu-to-sue-three-european-countries-for-refusing-to-accept-asylum-seekers-1/

And Martin Schulz has announced today he wants a full U.S.E in 7 years time. Those who don't sign up will be kicked out of the E.U.


http://www.westmonster.com/schulz-united-states-of-europe-by-2025-those-who-resist-will-automatically-leave-eu/

Financial considerations are of course very important to all of us, but this stuff is much more important altogether.
Its the finalisation of a mega dictatorship.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: jimmy944 on 07 December 2017, 14:47:43

And Martin Schulz has announced today he wants a full U.S.E in 7 years time. Those who don't sign up will be kicked out of the E.U.


http://www.westmonster.com/schulz-united-states-of-europe-by-2025-those-who-resist-will-automatically-leave-eu/


Who cares what he has to say? - its basically the equivalent of Nick Clegg (when he was deputy PM) announcing it.  ::) Also, such a change would require a unanimous vote by member states.

Still, I suppose we should expect nothing less of the European equivalent of Breitbart
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Varche on 07 December 2017, 15:06:50
Well the BBC reported Juncker "Brussels unveils plan to reform eurozone"
"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42250200

The European Commission has announced plans to reform the eurozone, including the creation of a monetary fund based on the existing bailout mechanism.

Contentious ideas such as the creation of a European finance minister and of a budget to support countries in trouble have been tabled for discussion.

Some members had warned that some of the plans were premature and ill-timed.

Germany is still without a new government and EU leaders are focused on the difficult Brexit negotiations.

Some countries had also raised concerns over plans that would give the Commission - the EU executive - more powers.


This is exactly why I voted leave. The immigration and other aspects are secondary.

They just do not learn or more importantly don't let anything get in their way of a united states of Europe run from Brussels. And before anyone says this only refers to Euroland - all member states will eventually have to take the euro. That always assumes the EU concept actually survives. There are ways of bullying countries into agreeing.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 07 December 2017, 18:10:20

And Martin Schulz has announced today he wants a full U.S.E in 7 years time. Those who don't sign up will be kicked out of the E.U.


http://www.westmonster.com/schulz-united-states-of-europe-by-2025-those-who-resist-will-automatically-leave-eu/


Who cares what he has to say? - its basically the equivalent of Nick Clegg (when he was deputy PM) announcing it.  ::) Also, such a change would require a unanimous vote by member states.

Still, I suppose we should expect nothing less of the European equivalent of Breitbart

Schulz has a lot more influence with the EU commission and parliament than Clegg ever did in this country.
Why  would it need approval from all member states ? Very little else that has happened since its inception has needed it.
Are you saying that people who believe the EU is going to become one large superstate are imagining it ?
I see Westmonster as the opposite number to the Guardian btw.  ;)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 07 December 2017, 18:11:37

And Martin Schulz has announced today he wants a full U.S.E in 7 years time. Those who don't sign up will be kicked out of the E.U.


http://www.westmonster.com/schulz-united-states-of-europe-by-2025-those-who-resist-will-automatically-leave-eu/


Who cares what he has to say? - its basically the equivalent of Nick Clegg (when he was deputy PM) announcing it.  ::) Also, such a change would require a unanimous vote by member states.

Still, I suppose we should expect nothing less of the European equivalent of Breitbart

Well we all know you are an arch-remainer Jimmy, but dismiss this at your peril.  ::)  Martin Shultz is quite possibly Germany's next Vice-Chancellor and if so will have much more influence and power than his predecessors as a former President of the EU parliament and given that Angela Merkel is not the towering figure that she was.  ;)

What he said is fact and has been widely reported.  Even in the Guardian!  :o  ;D

I suspect Jimmy quite likes the idea of the Peoples United States of Europe.  :)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: jimmy944 on 07 December 2017, 20:52:27
In all honesty I'm ambivalent about USE. And it has no relevance to the Brexit discussion as we would (if remaining) hold a veto. So it would only happen if out democratically elected government agreed to it.

What I do care about is that we are already poorer as a result of brexit, and will continue to be so for years (decades?) to come. I'd rather spend that money on something that adds value, rather than higher interest on our debt, more civil servants and worst of all David fu£king Davis.

As for schultz. His party has just polled its worst numbers since WW2, it's only natural he'd want to grab some headlines and try to avoid becoming a political irrelevance. German coalition  king-maker possibly, future leader, I doubt it. Also, I thought the whole point of the Eu was that it wasn't beholden to governments. Or is that only true when it's the uk government?

MIGV6, states retain the power if veto on matters of common foreign and security policy as well as harmonisation of social security. And several other things which would be required to make a USE. Anyone used their veto, no agreement. Pretty much like article 50, which is why I don't think we'll get a deal that's anything close to acceptable.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 07 December 2017, 21:06:14
Trust me, the veto will soon disappear and be replaced by qualified majority voting. In the meantime, they will do what they have always done. Introduce all the stuff we have been talking about, step by step, bit by bit, call it something other than what it is etc.
Also, if Schulz has his way (and I believe there are many of the same mind in Brussels) you sign up to the U.S.E. or your ejected from "the club".
The point is, do you believe in a United states of Europe ?, with a president, army, treasury etc. etc..............a carbon copy of the USA at best, or something similar to the USSR at worst ?
If you do, fine, your entitled to believe in it, although none of these things should be introduced without a referendum in each member state.
If you don't, then why would you want to remain a part of it ?, unless you think that money is the one and only thing in this world that is important.

If it survives long enough to become the U.S.E. it will be done without the consent of the people. This has been the aim right from day one.
One of the founding fathers (French bloke whose name escapes me) said in the 50,s "Europe must become one nation, and its peoples must not be informed until after it has happened".
Everything that has happened since the start makes it obvious that this was always the plan.
Europhiles in this country shouted from the rooftops in the 70,s that there would be no loss of sovereignty whatsoever in the UK, it was just a trading club for mutual benefit.
One of those was Heseltine. He said tonight that he fully supports a U.S.E
Had he said this in 1975 they would have lost the referendum by a huge margin, and he, Heath, Clark and the others knew it.
They lied through their teeth to get us to join and now at long last they have been exposed, and we are getting out.  :)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 07 December 2017, 21:19:02
Yep, national vetoes will disappear and probably quite quickly once they've got rid of their main thorn in their side.  ::)

The Lisbon Treaty abolished national veto power over 30 policy areas and for sure the federalists will cobble together another treaty once we are out of the way that will introduce QMV over more areas.  :)

Basically, if the Germans and the French want something to happen, all they will have to do is make it attractive to a few of the net recipients.  :)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 07 December 2017, 21:19:42
The reason I think we might get some sort of a deal (on stage one at least) very soon, is that May is desperate, and unfortunately they know it. She would never make a poker player.
The reason she is so desperate is that I think theres a better than 50/50 chance that the Tories will throw her under the bus around Christmas time and probably replace her with David Davis, if she doesn't sort out her own mess quickly.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: jimmy944 on 07 December 2017, 21:38:11
If you don't, then why would you want to remain a part of it ?, unless you think that money is the one and only thing in this world that is important.

On balance I believe it is better to be a part of it rather than an irrelevant island on the edge of it. Also I thought project fear was supposed to be a Remainer tactic ;). Even Cameron had enough spine to veto changes to the Lisbon treaty. I just don't see It happening without us agreeing to it.

As to money, yes I do believe it to be all important. From a country's perspective, the quality of your infrastructure, the education of your citizens, health of your citizens, your ability to defend yourself, all stem from your finances.

As a person, your health, life expectancy, and quality of experiences can all be linked indirectly to your income. In my case, our personal finances are the only reason I am not a 33year old widower. So perhaps my perspective is a little different to most.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: ronnyd on 07 December 2017, 22:11:01
Trust me, the veto will soon disappear and be replaced by qualified majority voting. In the meantime, they will do what they have always done. Introduce all the stuff we have been talking about, step by step, bit by bit, call it something other than what it is etc.
Also, if Schulz has his way (and I believe there are many of the same mind in Brussels) you sign up to the U.S.E. or your ejected from "the club".
The point is, do you believe in a United states of Europe ?, with a president, army, treasury etc. etc..............a carbon copy of the USA at best, or something similar to the USSR at worst ?
If you do, fine, your entitled to believe in it, although none of these things should be introduced without a referendum in each member state.
If you don't, then why would you want to remain a part of it ?, unless you think that money is the one and only thing in this world that is important.

If it survives long enough to become the U.S.E. it will be done without the consent of the people. This has been the aim right from day one.
One of the founding fathers (French bloke whose name escapes me) said in the 50,s "Europe must become one nation, and its peoples must not be informed until after it has happened".
Everything that has happened since the start makes it obvious that this was always the plan.
Europhiles in this country shouted from the rooftops in the 70,s that there would be no loss of sovereignty whatsoever in the UK, it was just a trading club for mutual benefit.
One of those was Heseltine. He said tonight that he fully supports a U.S.E
Had he said this in 1975 they would have lost the referendum by a huge margin, and he, Heath, Clark and the others knew it.
They lied through their teeth to get us to join and now at long last they have been exposed, and we are getting out.  :)
Are you thinking Jacques Delores perhaps? :-\
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 07 December 2017, 22:31:30
Trust me, the veto will soon disappear and be replaced by qualified majority voting. In the meantime, they will do what they have always done. Introduce all the stuff we have been talking about, step by step, bit by bit, call it something other than what it is etc.
Also, if Schulz has his way (and I believe there are many of the same mind in Brussels) you sign up to the U.S.E. or your ejected from "the club".
The point is, do you believe in a United states of Europe ?, with a president, army, treasury etc. etc..............a carbon copy of the USA at best, or something similar to the USSR at worst ?
If you do, fine, your entitled to believe in it, although none of these things should be introduced without a referendum in each member state.
If you don't, then why would you want to remain a part of it ?, unless you think that money is the one and only thing in this world that is important.

If it survives long enough to become the U.S.E. it will be done without the consent of the people. This has been the aim right from day one.
One of the founding fathers (French bloke whose name escapes me) said in the 50,s "Europe must become one nation, and its peoples must not be informed until after it has happened".
Everything that has happened since the start makes it obvious that this was always the plan.
Europhiles in this country shouted from the rooftops in the 70,s that there would be no loss of sovereignty whatsoever in the UK, it was just a trading club for mutual benefit.
One of those was Heseltine. He said tonight that he fully supports a U.S.E
Had he said this in 1975 they would have lost the referendum by a huge margin, and he, Heath, Clark and the others knew it.
They lied through their teeth to get us to join and now at long last they have been exposed, and we are getting out.  :)
Are you thinking Jacques Delores perhaps? :-\

No...well before 'up yours Delors' I think
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 07 December 2017, 22:40:30
De Gaulle probably. Shame he didn't get his way in barring us in the first place.  ;D

Ungrateful bastid!  ::)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: ronnyd on 08 December 2017, 00:02:04
Jean Monnet? :)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 08 December 2017, 00:04:58
Getting back to Arlene. If anyone has the right to dig their heels in to ensure they remain fully British and refuse to be railroaded into closer ties with the Republic, its her.
When she was a young girl, the IRA  shot, and seriously wounded her father in front of her. His " crime" was to be a reserve police officer.
When she was a teenager on a bus on the way to school, a bomb went off on the bus. The reason for bombing a bus full of schoolchildren was that the bus driver was a part time member of the British army.
So its easy to see why remaining British means so much to people like her (and me), because to give in would mean that those who died or were maimed in the cause of democracy and upholding law & order, in the face of the most awful and constant attack, would have suffered and died for nothing.
Its easy for Westminster politicians living in the shires or EU commissioners who have never even been to Northern Ireland to think they know whats best for it, but they should bear this stuff in mind when dealing with the issues involving it.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 08 December 2017, 00:06:14
Jean Monnet? :)

I honestly cant remember his name (Albsiemers) and cba trying to find it on the interweb. Others are more than welcome to do so though.  :y :D
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 08 December 2017, 00:38:17
It was Valery Giscard d'Estaing French president from 1974 to 1981  :y

" Giscard d'Estaing attracted international attention at the time of the June 2008 Irish vote on the Lisbon Treaty. In an article for Le Monde[25] in June 2007, he said that "public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals we dare not present to them directly". "  Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val%C3%A9ry_Giscard_d%27Estaing
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 08 December 2017, 07:03:58
 That's not the one I was thinking of, but it says the pretty much the same thing and proves the same point.  :y
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Kevin Wood on 08 December 2017, 09:54:31
... Valery Giscard d'Estaing  ...

"... Slightly silly party".  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJVROcKFnBQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJVROcKFnBQ)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: tigers_gonads on 08 December 2017, 12:19:46
Getting back to Arlene. If anyone has the right to dig their heels in to ensure they remain fully British and refuse to be railroaded into closer ties with the Republic, its her.
When she was a young girl, the IRA  shot, and seriously wounded her father in front of her. His " crime" was to be a reserve police officer.
When she was a teenager on a bus on the way to school, a bomb went off on the bus. The reason for bombing a bus full of schoolchildren was that the bus driver was a part time member of the British army.
So its easy to see why remaining British means so much to people like her (and me), because to give in would mean that those who died or were maimed in the cause of democracy and upholding law & order, in the face of the most awful and constant attack, would have suffered and died for nothing.
Its easy for Westminster politicians living in the shires or EU commissioners who have never even been to Northern Ireland to think they know whats best for it, but they should bear this stuff in mind when dealing with the issues involving it.




I'm not Irish but have known and worked with enough people from that side of the sea and that is pretty much spot on  :y

Doff's cap in Albs general direction  ;)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 08 December 2017, 15:17:00
It's reported that those born in Northern Ireland will be able to retain European Union citizenship.  :)

I'm sure that Albs is chuffed to bits!  :D  ;D
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 08 December 2017, 15:35:38
I fervently hope that is nothing more than a rumour.
I haven't seen any details of the agreement yet, as I was on night shift until 8am, then some kip, then took swmbo to Sainsburys, before back to work in half an hour.
I don't expect it to be anything to cause me to want to dance in the streets though. May has given in to them almost every step of the way, so I will be surprised if she has suddenly grown a spine.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Varche on 08 December 2017, 16:37:15
Well I have a suspicion that she has done alright. In fact it could be both sides have done alright.

Could it be that for whatever fee agreed we end up with trade as normal, plenty of immigrants still prepared to come to do the low paid jobs Brits don't want BUT with the ability to say no to anyone we don't like the look of - like Romanian gangster.

The pound recovered a bit so it must be good news ;D
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 08 December 2017, 16:46:55
Mr Farage seems less than impressed. Calling it a betrayal and leaving the EU in name only. :)

Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 08 December 2017, 17:00:42
Surrender is another word he used.

I'm not concerned about Brexit. It will be so watered-down compared to what was promised it will probably have little impact. 
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 08 December 2017, 17:47:41
You may well be right.  >:(
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 08 December 2017, 18:10:45
From what I've seen it could have been worse.  :-\

However, it has to be approved by the EU parliament and I wonder whether Labour's MEP's will vote in Britain's national interest this time?  ::)
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 08 December 2017, 18:12:12
Mr Farage seems less than impressed. Calling it a betrayal and leaving the EU in name only. :)

It does not need to be said that some people will be happy and others disappointed at the end of all the negotiating.  That is life in politics.  You just cannot please all the people all the time; far from it.

Let's just do what Farage is not doing; leave our conclusions to March 2019.  As for him he will never be happy as it would be the end of public and media interest in him, yesterdays man. :P
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 08 December 2017, 18:15:00
8 years under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. Do  I have that right?

Can't believe that is what 17 million Brits voted for.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 08 December 2017, 18:41:42
8 years under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. Do  I have that right?

Can't believe that is what 17 million Brits voted for.

As I understand it this is only for EU people living here and then only on a voluntary basis if the Supreme Court decides to refer a case to the ECJ for a decision on EU law.  Otherwise the ECJ will remain the highest court in the land until the end of any transition period or if no transition period can be agreed then until BREXIT Day on 29th March 2019. 

Otherwise I think that the government has agreed that our courts will 'take account' of decisions by the ECJ, but I suspect that in many cases they take account of decisions in courts around the world when reaching a verdict anyway.
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: jimmy944 on 08 December 2017, 19:51:13
Surrender is another word he used.

I'm not concerned about Brexit. It will be so watered-down compared to what was promised it will probably have little impact.

You may well be right  :y
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 08 December 2017, 20:35:34
Very unusual indeed, but there is quite an interesting article on the subject in Huffpost.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-theresa-may-brexit_uk_5a2ad801e4b069ec48acfc77?ncid=webmail
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Rods2 on 10 December 2017, 18:23:09
Very unusual indeed, but there is quite an interesting article on the subject in Huffpost.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-theresa-may-brexit_uk_5a2ad801e4b069ec48acfc77?ncid=webmail

Huffington Post make The Guardian and Gideon Osborne's free rag The Metro look like rabid Leaver's rags in comparison, so I would take anything they say with a pinch of salt. Many of the comments by John Redwood in his daily diary have been interesting where he has consistently stated the Government's true position that really shows up how sour, treasonous and dishonest many Remoaners have been and how much they have tried to undermine and make our Government look weak and about to fail and how much they have assisted the EU Commission. The traitor who edits the FT is a case in point when he was wined and dined by Junkier and egging him on to not accept less than €100bn. >:( >:( >:( Personally, I think he should be charged with treason, along with a few others. :y :y :y
Title: Re: Come on Arlene!
Post by: Migv6 on 10 December 2017, 20:26:58
Yep. Cull the fickin lot of them.  :)